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Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:35 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
The sad truth is that even if Carlos Quentin and Matt Garza and Carlos Quentin were donated to the Tribe, at no cost, it's still not likely the Indians would win the division. This is a patchwork team with question marks all over.
We were all fooled in the off season by over analyzing. Santana has declined in performance instead of improving. Masterson and Ubaldo have been consistently inconsistent. One guy, or even two, might not make the difference.


I hear ya but we are still within reach of the division. I understand we don't have a lot of trade-able assets but let's look at this:

1. We are 2 games over .500 and 4 games back despite getting outscored by 40 runs this year
2. We are under-performing at 2 key offensive positions (1B and LF)

Number 1 on the list shows this team is tough and wins the close ones. Number 2 on the list shows we only need to upgrade a little to average performance to see improvement. Adding these pieces (average guys) would only give us a chance to get there, we'd still not be favorites but what message does it send to us fans if we don't at least try to improve. If we don't try now when will we try?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:05 pm

daingean wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
The sad truth is that even if Carlos Quentin and Matt Garza and Carlos Quentin were donated to the Tribe, at no cost, it's still not likely the Indians would win the division. This is a patchwork team with question marks all over.
We were all fooled in the off season by over analyzing. Santana has declined in performance instead of improving. Masterson and Ubaldo have been consistently inconsistent. One guy, or even two, might not make the difference.


I hear ya but we are still within reach of the division. I understand we don't have a lot of trade-able assets but let's look at this:

1. We are 2 games over .500 and 4 games back despite getting outscored by 40 runs this year
2. We are under-performing at 2 key offensive positions (1B and LF)

Number 1 on the list shows this team is tough and wins the close ones. Number 2 on the list shows we only need to upgrade a little to average performance to see improvement. Adding these pieces (average guys) would only give us a chance to get there, we'd still not be favorites but what message does it send to us fans if we don't at least try to improve. If we don't try now when will we try?


Ghost: The guys that are here.. need to do better.. specifically, who you mentioned.. Both Ubaldo and Masterson need to improve by showing that consistency.. If there were two carlos quentin's.. wouldn't donating one be charitable?..

Dain: Do you like what you've seen from Kotchman, Duncan, & Damon, & especially Marson recently?. It's what CA was saying before the ASB.. The guys that are here have to step up.. this is where most of the improvement has to come from...

I D K about 'sending a message' by trading for/buying some average guys..Doubtful that would get the fans jazzed.. no?..
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:18 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Dain: Do you like what you've seen from Kotchman, Duncan, & Damon, & especially Marson recently?. It's what CA was saying before the ASB.. The guys that are here have to step up.. this is where most of the improvement has to come from...



I'm not a buyer on Kotchman or Duncan. Kotchman has hit well lately (6-19) and his power numbers are up this year too. I just don't see him as a quality 1B his numbers are just not very good in the run producing numbers throughout his career. Duncan is a bench guy...probably ok in that role. But the truth is this team needs a RH that will make the opposing manager make a decision. Getting into an opponent's bullpen should be an advantage for an offense (omitting the back-end here) but if a manager sit on a lefty for 2 innings gives away that advantage. Duncan or Marson won't do that most of the time and certainly not Cunningham.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:46 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Dain: Do you like what you've seen from Kotchman, Duncan, & Damon, & especially Marson recently?. It's what CA was saying before the ASB.. The guys that are here have to step up.. this is where most of the improvement has to come from...



I'm not a buyer on Kotchman or Duncan. Kotchman has hit well lately (6-19) and his power numbers are up this year too. I just don't see him as a quality 1B his numbers are just not very good in the run producing numbers throughout his career. Duncan is a bench guy...probably ok in that role. But the truth is this team needs a RH that will make the opposing manager make a decision. Getting into an opponent's bullpen should be an advantage for an offense (omitting the back-end here) but if a manager sit on a lefty for 2 innings gives away that advantage. Duncan or Marson won't do that most of the time and certainly not Cunningham.


I can't agree with you more about cunningham. He really hasn't done much.. A RH bat that is at least ML Average.. should not be too tall of an order.. but without the stepping up of the guys already here.. it wouldn't matter. Best guess.. by the end of the coming home stand, three against the Tigers, the Indians FO will know what they have to do.....
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:39 pm

Best I can figure is that Cunningham is basically dead weight at this point for if/when Sizemore returns. It wouldn't make sense to put someone like Fedroff in that role, only to have them DFA'd as soon as Sizemore makes his return.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:53 pm

Edible14 wrote:Best I can figure is that Cunningham is basically dead weight at this point for if/when Sizemore returns. It wouldn't make sense to put someone like Fedroff in that role, only to have them DFA'd as soon as Sizemore makes his return.


Which leaves the question, "When will Grady be back?" I am not real optimistic on this right now. Plus how long can this guy hold onto a position for this team? Even if you do make a move, odds are the line-up will be a bit different when Grady does come back.

My guess is the Indians know what they want to do but what is actually available right now just doesn't fit. It might just take a little patience. Can we afford patience?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby danh8 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:35 am

What other teams want are the guys I'd never give them. I don't want to touch the Paulino's, Myles, RonnyRod's, LuigiRod's, Lindor, Soto, Guillmet, McCallister, Levon Washington, Wolters, Aguilar, CC Lee,Adams, Barnes, Chen, Sisco, Sides, Moncrief, Jordan Smith, Monsalve, Urshella, Armstrong, Allen, Cody Anderson, Castillo, Steven Wright, Colon, Lugo, Radeke, Valerio .. I'm missing quite a few too ...but I don't want to touch anybody that I see out there that has a possiblity to be something.

We did enough damage last year when we traded for Jimenez ..let's let these kids we have developing..develop.. we've now got a guy in Brad Grant who I trust has the eye for talent we need, and you can truly see things will be turning for the better if we just keep our patience and let our system develop them and not look for anymore quick fixes. This Indians team is a lot further away than a rh bat and a starter and reliever.. if we look anywhere look to the minors.. bring up Goedert, Guillmet..they could offer something ...but don't touch the kids we have growing for our future.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby indians1 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:55 am

this team is alot further away than their record indicates as long as carlos santana hits the way that he is hitting.

people can sugarcoat the santana situation by saying how team friendly his contract is, but the fact remains is that he was supposed to be our cleanup hitter for the next 5-7 years. It is a big problem when you can go to your divisional foes and see cabrera/fielder as the anchors for the tigers lineup, along with dunn/konerko in chicago.

Last night, we had lopez/brantley. That is the problem and why it is going to be hard for this team to go on any extended winning streak.

The white sox never have to worry about konerko. You have to wonder if the knee injury from 2010- changed santana's swing that has made his average suffer big time. Santana was a .900+ OPS even 1.000 at times in the minors. The guy was a better prospect than victor martinez and it has not materialized.

With how poor carlos' average was last year and now this year, you have to wonder if he will ever be a better hitter than a .240-.250 hitter.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:45 am

danh8 wrote:What other teams want are the guys I'd never give them. I don't want to touch the Paulino's, Myles, RonnyRod's, LuigiRod's, Lindor, Soto, Guillmet, McCallister, Levon Washington, Wolters, Aguilar, CC Lee,Adams, Barnes, Chen, Sisco, Sides, Moncrief, Jordan Smith, Monsalve, Urshella, Armstrong, Allen, Cody Anderson, Castillo, Steven Wright, Colon, Lugo, Radeke, Valerio .. I'm missing quite a few too ...but I don't want to touch anybody that I see out there that has a possiblity to be something.

We did enough damage last year when we traded for Jimenez ..let's let these kids we have developing..develop.. we've now got a guy in Brad Grant who I trust has the eye for talent we need, and you can truly see things will be turning for the better if we just keep our patience and let our system develop them and not look for anymore quick fixes. This Indians team is a lot further away than a rh bat and a starter and reliever.. if we look anywhere look to the minors.. bring up Goedert, Guillmet..they could offer something ...but don't touch the kids we have growing for our future.


I don't quite agree with you on this. I will say that most of the guys on your list will never produce at the ML level. That's the way baseball is. I will say that if we are going to trade guys (especially top talents like Lindor, L-Rod, or Paulino) we need to get value in both quality and years. You can look at the team on paper and yes we are deficient but we are winning games despite this. This team has a toughness which is not found every year (I'd call winning +3 games pretty good despite being out scored by 39 runs this year). I think the Cardinals last year was a team that displayed this kind of toughness (not comparing the quality of last years WS champions to this team but comparing the toughness). Will this team make the play-offs? I'd say doubtful but this team can and it will be that toughness which gets them there. I'd send a Miles, Kluber and Wolters for a Quenton or similar player.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:32 am

Toughness doesn't have anything to do with it. If you are being outscored like we have this season, but still over .500, then a large part is luck and it also shows we've been quite good in close scoring games due to the backend of our bullpen.

This team isn't just 1 hitter or pitcher away from serious contention. To sacrifice what little we have left in our farm for a player that might be gone after this season or the next is a waste. Let these guys play it out and try to be creative around the deadline (why we still don't have Gaby Sanchez as our first baseman is beyond me).
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:39 am

JP_Frost wrote:Toughness doesn't have anything to do with it. If you are being outscored like we have this season, but still over .500, then a large part is luck and it also shows we've been quite good in close scoring games due to the backend of our bullpen.

This team isn't just 1 hitter or pitcher away from serious contention. To sacrifice what little we have left in our farm for a player that might be gone after this season or the next is a waste. Let these guys play it out and try to be creative around the deadline (why we still don't have Gaby Sanchez as our first baseman is beyond me).


Part of the reason we don't have Gaby Sanchez as our first baseman is because Casey Kotchman continues to gain traction as a bona fide first baseman on this club.. over the last couple of weeks, Kotch has hit over .350 with 14 runs produced and three homers.. while Gaby Sanchez isn't on the Marlins active 25 man roster after amassing a whopping .202 BA with 3 HR's and 17 RBI's in over 180 AB's. Why would the Indians acquire that guy?.. That is what is "beyond"

"...To sacrifice what little we have...


If the players acquired aren't gone after this season or next.. so what. It's not a waste to play for a division championship for this season. As far as what "little we have" is concerned.. it only takes one or two guys to make it to the ML's to turn a farm system rating upside down. The Indians are not without the chance to have one or three of those guys at Akron/Columbus right now..

The current roster of Indians hitters need some hits w/RISP..that is, the light has to turn on.. The starting pitchers need to continue to improve their consistency and the already strong bullpen should be fortified with the return of Raffy Perez. The continued good work by Esmil Rogers has been a pleasant surprise. This pen will be five deep at that point (CP, Vinnie, Joe Smith, Esmil & Raffy Right), six if you want to include Scotty Barnes.

The trading deadline is two weeks away.. a little help could be all that's needed.. Carlos Quentin?.. would be nice & expensive.. but don't be surprised if it's someone like Reed Johnson (Cubs) or even Carlos Ruiz (Phillies) who is a right handed stick that makes contact and hits VERY WELL w/RISP..
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:51 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Part of the reason we don't have Gaby Sanchez as our first baseman is because Casey Kotchman continues to gain traction as a bona fide first baseman on this club.. over the last couple of weeks, Kotch has hit over .350 with 14 runs produced and three homers.. while Gaby Sanchez isn't on the Marlins active 25 man roster after amassing a whopping .202 BA with 3 HR's and 17 RBI's in over 180 AB's. Why would the Indians acquire that guy?.. That is what is "beyond"


Kotchman has come on as of late, but he's not a long term answer at 1st. Sanchez has a track record as a productive 1st baseman and right now would be the time to buy low on him. He's also cost controlled and bats righthanded.

If the players acquired aren't gone after this season or next.. so what. It's not a waste to play for a division championship for this season. As far as what "little we have" is concerned.. it only takes one or two guys to make it to the ML's to turn a farm system rating upside down. The Indians are not without the chance to have one or three of those guys at Akron/Columbus right now..

The current roster of Indians hitters need some hits w/RISP..that is, the light has to turn on.. The starting pitchers need to continue to improve their consistency and the already strong bullpen should be fortified with the return of Raffy Perez. The continued good work by Esmil Rogers has been a pleasant surprise. This pen will be five deep at that point (CP, Vinnie, Joe Smith, Esmil & Raffy Right), six if you want to include Scotty Barnes.

The trading deadline is two weeks away.. a little help could be all that's needed.. Carlos Quentin?.. would be nice & expensive.. but don't be surprised if it's someone like Reed Johnson (Cubs) or even Carlos Ruiz (Phillies) who is a right handed stick that makes contact and hits VERY WELL w/RISP..


I'm saying that you'd have to overpay to get guys that will substantially help this team down the stretch and a lot of them will be FA's very soon. It's not worth it imo.

Obviously Quentin would be nice, but if it would cost us 1 or 2 top prospects, it's a no go. Just adding Quentin doesn't do much at all. We need more help and right now we don't have the pieces to acquire those players so why not stick with these guys while being open minded at the trading deadline instead of forcefully trying to do something.

While I applaud the bold move made last year with Jimenez, a lot of us have been bitching and moaning about what we gave up and how it would've been nice to still have Pomeranz and White. And Ubaldo even had a very club friendly contract to boot. I think we are basically in the same position as last year, and while things could pan out, it's too much of a risk to gamble on one big acquistion again.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:21 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Toughness doesn't have anything to do with it. If you are being outscored like we have this season, but still over .500, then a large part is luck and it also shows we've been quite good in close scoring games due to the backend of our bullpen.

This team isn't just 1 hitter or pitcher away from serious contention. To sacrifice what little we have left in our farm for a player that might be gone after this season or the next is a waste. Let these guys play it out and try to be creative around the deadline (why we still don't have Gaby Sanchez as our first baseman is beyond me).


Just because some want Gady Sanchez to be available doesn't mean the Marlins are looking to deal him. Carlos Lee was brought in but is a free agent at the end of the year, and heck if the Marlins keep losing they could sell him before the deadline. Sanchez is a local Miami kid who's value is at an all-time low. They may be content with holding on to him.

I definitely wouldn't hate getting Sanchez at the right price...but his career batting line is worse than Ryan Garko's at about the same age that Garko fell off the map. Sanchez also has homered less often. Sure he's got a decent track record when you consider how bad our 1Bs have been but I'm not so sure anymore than Sanchez is really the savior at 1B we need. Again though, if it cost almost nothing then I'd definitely give it a shot. Would be interesting to see just what the Marlins wanted for him. I'd guess OF and/or bullpen help (Morrison probably should move back to 1B eventually plus aren't exactly set in CF). Tribe can't really help in the OF though (at least with near ML talent).


I agree mostly with what you're saying though. Shouldn't go too crazy especially if you're getting a guy that will walk at the end of the year. I do hope the Tribe looks hard at guys who aren't free agents though, like Chase Headley and possibly Matt Garza. At least if you still fail to make the playoffs there you have the player for next year.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby BrianM » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:16 pm

According to rotowire, if the Marlins dont pick it up the next 10 days they may become sellers. Im thinking Mark Buehrle, Justin Ruggiano, Justin Ruggiano, and JUSTIN RUGGIANO. 30 year old right handed LF batting .385 in 95 ABs and .436 in 39 ABs vs lefties. Under contract for 4 more years I believe.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:21 pm

BrianM wrote:According to rotowire, if the Marlins dont pick it up the next 10 days they may become sellers. Im thinking Mark Buehrle, Justin Ruggiano, Justin Ruggiano, and JUSTIN RUGGIANO. 30 year old right handed LF batting .385 in 95 ABs and .436 in 39 ABs vs lefties. Under contract for 4 more years I believe.


Ruggiano is in the midst of an impressive hot streak right now.. Nothing in his history says it's going to last...
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:37 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
BrianM wrote:According to rotowire, if the Marlins dont pick it up the next 10 days they may become sellers. Im thinking Mark Buehrle, Justin Ruggiano, Justin Ruggiano, and JUSTIN RUGGIANO. 30 year old right handed LF batting .385 in 95 ABs and .436 in 39 ABs vs lefties. Under contract for 4 more years I believe.


Ruggiano is in the midst of an impressive hot streak right now.. Nothing in his history says it's going to last...


One site reporting (was probably just MLBTraderumors, can't remember) the Marlins may move some players mentioned 2 names I kinda always liked, even though both are FA after this season I believe I'd welcome either Randy Choate (maybe they just wait to see if/when Perez left returns) or Anibal Sanchez.

Sanchez would be interesting to me as he might (MIGHT) be an under the radar type move CA could pull off. We haven't heard his name mentioned much, probably because the Marlins haven't made a decision outside of picking up Carlos Lee. I don't see the Indians giving up what it may take to nab either Ryan Dempster or Matt Garza since so many teams seem to be hot on their heels. Perhaps Sanchez is a viable alternative?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:59 pm

Just as a reminder....

.323/.416/.523 - .939OPS in 65 ABs for the White Sox

Thank god we still have Corey Kluber and Jason Donald around though :confused
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:12 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
One site reporting (was probably just MLBTraderumors, can't remember) the Marlins may move some players mentioned 2 names I kinda always liked, even though both are FA after this season I believe I'd welcome either Randy Choate (maybe they just wait to see if/when Perez left returns) or Anibal Sanchez.

Sanchez would be interesting to me as he might (MIGHT) be an under the radar type move CA could pull off. We haven't heard his name mentioned much, probably because the Marlins haven't made a decision outside of picking up Carlos Lee. I don't see the Indians giving up what it may take to nab either Ryan Dempster or Matt Garza since so many teams seem to be hot on their heels. Perhaps Sanchez is a viable alternative?


I know Sanchez has had an awful year in Miami but there might be some things to consider.

#1. New stadium might not be a good fit for his game
#2. Managed by Ozzie (would drive almost anyone crazy)
#3. Might not like the rainbow M on his hat
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:14 pm

Just my opinion, but after watching McAllister, if he were still a prospect he would absolutely be the #2 guy in the system right now. I think he's pitching a little bit above his head right now, but this guy has turned out real well. Great work by the Indians in acquiring and developing him.

McAllister is the Indians mid-season acquisition they didn't have to make.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:23 pm

daingean wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
One site reporting (was probably just MLBTraderumors, can't remember) the Marlins may move some players mentioned 2 names I kinda always liked, even though both are FA after this season I believe I'd welcome either Randy Choate (maybe they just wait to see if/when Perez left returns) or Anibal Sanchez.

Sanchez would be interesting to me as he might (MIGHT) be an under the radar type move CA could pull off. We haven't heard his name mentioned much, probably because the Marlins haven't made a decision outside of picking up Carlos Lee. I don't see the Indians giving up what it may take to nab either Ryan Dempster or Matt Garza since so many teams seem to be hot on their heels. Perhaps Sanchez is a viable alternative?


I know Sanchez has had an awful year in Miami but there might be some things to consider.

#1. New stadium might not be a good fit for his game
#2. Managed by Ozzie (would drive almost anyone crazy)
#3. Might not like the rainbow M on his hat


You referring to Anibal Sanchez or Gabby Sanchez? :confused
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:24 pm

sorry Gabby Sanchez.....
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:43 pm

daingean wrote:I know Sanchez has had an awful year in Miami but there might be some things to consider.

#1. New stadium might not be a good fit for his game
#2. Managed by Ozzie (would drive almost anyone crazy)
#3. Might not like the rainbow M on his hat


The new park is pretty spacious...but then again, the old stadium the Marlins played in was very large and spacious as well.

ha, agree on Ozzie...and those hats...without a doubt the ugliest hats in baseball.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:51 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Just my opinion, but after watching McAllister, if he were still a prospect he would absolutely be the #2 guy in the system right now. I think he's pitching a little bit above his head right now, but this guy has turned out real well. Great work by the Indians in acquiring and developing him.

McAllister is the Indians mid-season acquisition they didn't have to make.



Let's not forget that Z-Mac was ranked as the 5th best prospect in the Yanks system the year we traded for him (and 6th the year before). Was a very good prospect. Since his first stint in full-seasno ball in 2008, he's had one bad year in AAA as a 22 year old and was rough last year in the bigs at 23 in 4 starts...but other than that has been very solid. Only issue has been how high is his ceiling? A 4? or can he be a 2/3? I'll take either considering what we gave up but he's got the size to be a great innings eater/#3.

I still think the Tribe could use an addition to the rotation though. think it's pretty telling that McAllister started yesterday ahead of Tomlin. Tomlin off to a rough start tonight..sure maybe it's the long layoff but again guy has been bad since June of last year. Can Lowe and McAllister hold up in the 3/4 spots with no 5th starter behind them? I don't know....maybe Carmona will be our savior...hey, one can dream
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:Just my opinion, but after watching McAllister, if he were still a prospect he would absolutely be the #2 guy in the system right now. I think he's pitching a little bit above his head right now, but this guy has turned out real well. Great work by the Indians in acquiring and developing him.

McAllister is the Indians mid-season acquisition they didn't have to make.



Let's not forget that Z-Mac was ranked as the 5th best prospect in the Yanks system the year we traded for him (and 6th the year before). Was a very good prospect. Since his first stint in full-seasno ball in 2008, he's had one bad year in AAA as a 22 year old and was rough last year in the bigs at 23 in 4 starts...but other than that has been very solid. Only issue has been how high is his ceiling? A 4? or can he be a 2/3? I'll take either considering what we gave up but he's got the size to be a great innings eater/#3.


I think Zach McAllister's realistic ceiling is a weak 2/good to solid 3. Big, strong 6'5" RHP's that throw consistently 90-93mph with arm-side run and a little sink with average breaking balls are mid-first round picks in the amateur draft. He shows good command of that fastball, too. He pounds the strike zone with that thing. The one thing that holds me back on him is a lack of a plus off-speed pitch. I don't want to oversell him, but I think most of us kind of considered this guy to be a 4-5 starter type since the Indians traded for him -- heck, the Yankees gave him up as a PTBNL for Austin freaking Kearns (who has having an OK year after completely sucking in '08 and '09). Maybe he'd stick in the rotation, maybe not. Kind of a depth guy is how he was perceived by most. Pomeranz and White got all of the attention.

At best, I think he's a weak 2. The guy is a horse and has good command of a hard, running fastball that he throws downhill OK. Again, I think he's pitching above his head right now and I expect him to have a couple of rough outings, but I think he's turned out very well and he's a very valuable asset to the Indians.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:00 pm

Somehow missed this, but I just read that the Royals DFA'ed J.Sanchez...wow....they dealt Melky for him

If this org has room for guys like Rottino and Schwinden on the 40 I hope they at least make a bid for a 29yo LH SP who's having a down season...that said, I don't think we have a chance to get him
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Tondo wrote:Somehow missed this, but I just read that the Royals DFA'ed J.Sanchez...wow....they dealt Melky for him

If this org has room for guys like Rottino and Schwinden on the 40 I hope they at least make a bid for a 29yo LH SP who's having a down season...that said, I don't think we have a chance to get him


Issue could be money because if you claim him off waivers, believe you have to pick up the remaining portion of his salary and he makes a good chunk of change for how bad he's been. Plus he's a free agent after the year so not like you can pick him up and hold on to him beyond this year. If he hit the open market and didn't cost any cash I'd take a gamble on him as a bullpen arm possibly, maybe right him there. Could just be the AL doesn't suit him.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:18 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:I think Zach McAllister's realistic ceiling is a weak 2/good to solid 3. Big, strong 6'5" RHP's that throw consistently 90-93mph with arm-side run and a little sink with average breaking balls are mid-first round picks in the amateur draft. He shows good command of that fastball, too. He pounds the strike zone with that thing. The one thing that holds me back on him is a lack of a plus off-speed pitch. I don't want to oversell him, but I think most of us kind of considered this guy to be a 4-5 starter type since the Indians traded for him -- heck, the Yankees gave him up as a PTBNL for Austin freaking Kearns (who has having an OK year after completely sucking in '08 and '09). Maybe he'd stick in the rotation, maybe not. Kind of a depth guy is how he was perceived by most. Pomeranz and White got all of the attention.

At best, I think he's a weak 2. The guy is a horse and has good command of a hard, running fastball that he throws downhill OK. Again, I think he's pitching above his head right now and I expect him to have a couple of rough outings, but I think he's turned out very well and he's a very valuable asset to the Indians.


I always felt he had a realistic shot at being a good #3. I think a #2 is a bit optimistic but on certain teams could see it (and obviously if he got there you'd get no arguement from me). Like you pointed out, secndary stuff just seems rather ordinary so that's why I hesitate projecting him higher than a #3 but you never know. He is still pretty darn young too.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Tondo wrote:Somehow missed this, but I just read that the Royals DFA'ed J.Sanchez...wow....they dealt Melky for him

If this org has room for guys like Rottino and Schwinden on the 40 I hope they at least make a bid for a 29yo LH SP who's having a down season...that said, I don't think we have a chance to get him


Issue could be money because if you claim him off waivers, believe you have to pick up the remaining portion of his salary and he makes a good chunk of change for how bad he's been. Plus he's a free agent after the year so not like you can pick him up and hold on to him beyond this year. If he hit the open market and didn't cost any cash I'd take a gamble on him as a bullpen arm possibly, maybe right him there. Could just be the AL doesn't suit him.


Good points. Didn't check his contract status
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby go_tribe » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:25 pm

If I'm CA, I deal for the only player that will get us not only to the playoffs, but also possibly the WS. Cole Hamels is that player. He'd cost a fortune, not only in getting him but signing him, but if he's available (which looks like a possibility w/philly so far out) that's the move to make. Hamels is a true stopper, playoff warrior and would boost ticket sales as well. He could change the atmosphere in cleveland. In a playoff series Jimenez becomes your number 3 starter, yes he's inconsistent but he'd also be a wild card who has the ability to shut you down. Not many teams would be able to throw a starter of that talent in game 3.

To get Hamels, you gotta build the package around Lindor and Chisenhall. If the window is this year and next, I'd make the trade and run with it.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:44 pm

Hamels...well, I'd welcome it but I would start a bit smaller

Chris Denorfia...you can probably get him for Tyler Cannon or some low A ball reliever...not a sexy pickup, but an upgrade. He's basically a RHB, older version of Brantley....and he hits lefties

The Padres are the team to target...Headley, Quentin, Denorfia

Also read that the Angels might trade Bourjos for "the right reliever"...they'd probably ask for Perez or Pestano but maybe Joe Smith and C.Phelps do the trick? Bourjos has 10-30 potential, hits LHP as a RHB and would be under control through 2016 and he's obv blocked by Trout...more of a long term move though
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby go_tribe » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:04 pm

No more small upgrade talk, CA was aggressive in getting Jimenez last year, and has a chance to add to that deal this year. I don't want to improve and finish second, if we're gonna make a move, lets make a move that fits with what he did last year in trying to win now. Carlos Quentin wouldn't win us a title, probs not even get us to October. He'd help us finish second. Pitching is what WS titles are built on. The Cardinals last year faced better teams all the way thru, but Carpenter pitched his ass off and they won because of it. Look at Josh Beckett 2007, down 3 games to 1 on the road against the CY Young winner and he beats us. I want that kinda guy on our team, and that guy is Hamels.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:27 pm

go_tribe wrote:If I'm CA, I deal for the only player that will get us not only to the playoffs, but also possibly the WS. Cole Hamels is that player. He'd cost a fortune, not only in getting him but signing him, but if he's available (which looks like a possibility w/philly so far out) that's the move to make. Hamels is a true stopper, playoff warrior and would boost ticket sales as well. He could change the atmosphere in cleveland. In a playoff series Jimenez becomes your number 3 starter, yes he's inconsistent but he'd also be a wild card who has the ability to shut you down. Not many teams would be able to throw a starter of that talent in game 3.

To get Hamels, you gotta build the package around Lindor and Chisenhall. If the window is this year and next, I'd make the trade and run with it.


Even if the Indians got Hamels, we very likely don't make the WS though and it's not like he'd for sure get us into the playoffs even. Would be a HUUUUUGE addition, don't get me wrong, but there is no way the Indians could re-sign him after the year so you'd be getting him for 2.5 months and then lose him for nothing (no draft pick, nothing).

If the Tribe is gonna trade Lindor it'll be for a guy that's not a free agent. Tribe traded Pom and White but Jimenez had not just 1 more year left but two. Huge difference.

If I'm the Tribe I'd be keeping in touch with the Marlins everyday from now til the end of the month. Some crazy rumors coming out of South Beach the last two days ranging from possible Hanley Ramirez to Boston deals and even some hints that guys like Josh Johnson and Mike (or whatever the heck his new name is) Stanton being available. Stanton is IMO the absolute perfect fit for the Indians. RH OF with big time power...and CHEAP. Not even arby eligible next year.

Can't imagine the Marlins trading him but it is the Marlins we're talking about and Olney seems to think it's at least a possibility that they'd entertain offers. He's one of the few guys in baseball I'd empty the system for....even then may not have enough but could maybe get creative. A one in a million shot but hey, one can dream :cool
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:46 pm

I'd give them Lindor, Chiz, McAllister, LuRod and the draft pick for Stanton....that'd make them at least think about it for a moment
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby go_tribe » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:50 pm

I can't see Stanton getting traded, but Hanley yes. I'd be all for them adding Ramirez for the right price, I think he'd come cheaper than Josh Johnson due to his lazy play and declining stats. I know getting Hamels isn't a possibility, but if I'm CA thats a trade i'd make. With Hafner and Sizemore off the books next year, why can't we just pay the guy to stay? Again I know it wont happen, but thats the move to make. There are no sure things, but I'd have to LOVE the Indians chances in the playoffs with that rotation. There are few all star caliber guys in baseball that could go beyond what they are in the regular season, but Hamels is one of them.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:54 pm

go_tribe wrote:I can't see Stanton getting traded, but Hanley yes. I'd be all for them adding Ramirez for the right price, I think he'd come cheaper than Josh Johnson due to his lazy play and declining stats. I know getting Hamels isn't a possibility, but if I'm CA thats a trade i'd make. With Hafner and Sizemore off the books next year, why can't we just pay the guy to stay? Again I know it wont happen, but thats the move to make. There are no sure things, but I'd have to LOVE the Indians chances in the playoffs with that rotation. There are few all star caliber guys in baseball that could go beyond what they are in the regular season, but Hamels is one of them.


Even if the Indians could afford to pay Hamels $20M next year there are still 2 big obstacles. Firstly, he probably doesn't want to come to Cleveland. And Secondly and most importantly, the Indians won't give him a 5 year deal, let alone a 6 year deal like he wants (and may be getting from the Phillies). Tribe has an unwritten (or maybe it is written somewhere) rule that they don't go more than 4 guaranteed years with free agent pitchers, even CC they offered 4 years and an option I believe. The logic is that very, very few 5+ year deals for pitchers have worked out when all is said and done. I feel like you can count on one hand how many have truely worked out real well over the course of the deal (Mussina comes to mind and CC looks like he will for the Yanks, but not many others).


I agree with you on Stanton, find it hard to imagine the Marlins would move him. But his name was dropped by Olney and it is the Marlins so never say never I guess. Hanley....would be an interesting add. Probably needs a change of scenery and would be a nice RH bat for the Tribe. Not sure he's worth quite what the Marlins will want though after that rumored Hanley/Bell for Crawford/prospect thing this morning not sure what to think.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:17 am

Tondo wrote:I'd give them Lindor, Chiz, McAllister, LuRod and the draft pick for Stanton....that'd make them at least think about it for a moment


I'd be willing to give that too but not sure it'd be enough. Then again, if I was running a team that had Stanton I'm not sure there really could be a offer that I'd move him for. 4 years of controllable left, one year of near ML min left....still only 22 and one of the best power hitters in the game?! This kid is up there with Manny Ramirez type of value circa 1995.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:58 am

Tondo wrote:Hamels...well, I'd welcome it but I would start a bit smaller

Chris Denorfia...you can probably get him for Tyler Cannon or some low A ball reliever...not a sexy pickup, but an upgrade. He's basically a RHB, older version of Brantley....and he hits lefties

The Padres are the team to target...Headley, Quentin, Denorfia

Also read that the Angels might trade Bourjos for "the right reliever"...they'd probably ask for Perez or Pestano but maybe Joe Smith and C.Phelps do the trick? Bourjos has 10-30 potential, hits LHP as a RHB and would be under control through 2016 and he's obv blocked by Trout...more of a long term move though


Denorfia is an interesting guy to get. Has another year of arbitration left so wouldn't walk either. No much power but can play all 3 OF spots and would be an upgrade over Cunningham IMO. Not sure how good a starter he'd be in LF but if the price was low I think it could be worth while (or if it was in addition to a guy like Headley).

I agree on the Padres...I'd throw in a guy like Will Venerable too. I know he's a lefty and also struggles against lefties, but he has crushed the ball outside of Petco this year. Still has 3 years or arby left (was a super two this year) so may not be available (though reports have the Yanks considering him). Could be a nice buy/sell candidate should the Tribe decide to get real creative and move Choo. Padres also have a couple pitchers that could be interesting (Volquez, Richards).


Also intrigued by Bourjous. Would be an upgrade defensively in CF but man that bat has fallen this year. I was thinking maybe a guy like Sipp though not sure the Tribe can afford to give up a lefty reliever right now (though with Raffy coming back soon hopefully, maybe they could). I know Sipp has been bad this year but then again, so has Bourjos so maybe it could work. Not really the big bat you want but like a Venerable think it could allow you to try and move a guy like Choo over the winter/this summer if you wanted to try and make a big splash somehow.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:05 am

go_tribe wrote:If I'm CA, I deal for the only player that will get us not only to the playoffs, but also possibly the WS. Cole Hamels is that player. He'd cost a fortune, not only in getting him but signing him, but if he's available (which looks like a possibility w/philly so far out) that's the move to make. Hamels is a true stopper, playoff warrior and would boost ticket sales as well. He could change the atmosphere in cleveland. In a playoff series Jimenez becomes your number 3 starter, yes he's inconsistent but he'd also be a wild card who has the ability to shut you down. Not many teams would be able to throw a starter of that talent in game 3.

To get Hamels, you gotta build the package around Lindor and Chisenhall. If the window is this year and next, I'd make the trade and run with it.


While a pitching upgrade would certainly help, this team needs a right handed hitter or they have no hope of reaching anything. If you watch the games, you know that opposing managers throw a lefty reliever at us and it shuts us down for a few innings (even mediocre lefties). A RH hitter that makes an opposing manager to make a bullpen move has to be the number 1 priority.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:44 am

Tondo wrote:Hamels...well, I'd welcome it but I would start a bit smaller

Chris Denorfia...you can probably get him for Tyler Cannon or some low A ball reliever...not a sexy pickup, but an upgrade. He's basically a RHB, older version of Brantley....and he hits lefties

The Padres are the team to target...Headley, Quentin, Denorfia

Also read that the Angels might trade Bourjos for "the right reliever"...they'd probably ask for Perez or Pestano but maybe Joe Smith and C.Phelps do the trick? Bourjos has 10-30 potential, hits LHP as a RHB and would be under control through 2016 and he's obv blocked by Trout...more of a long term move though


Peter Bourjos would be a welcome addition and could be a bit of a buy low guy. However if asking prices are said to be a recockulous as some believe, then I'm sure "the right reliever" is having a solid year and happens to be tied for second in the league for saves (flashy stat I know) or an elite set up man.

I'll drive to pick up Bourjos myself if it means Aaron freaking Cunningham would be off this roster.

As badly as this team needs a kick in the offensive region, the bench really is awful. I'm a huge Lou Marson fan, and obviously he's solid. I'm ok with Lopez when he's not batting cleanup and starting everyday, he's a decent player to balance out the lefties in Hannahan and Kotchman, but beyond that...but we're still running out there without a true backup shortstop, which is maddening.

Everything that can be said has been said about Duncan/Damon, so I'll move on...like the Indians should.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:19 am

Giancarlo Stanton for the farm system?.. doubtful.. and Stanton is no Manny Ramirez circa 1995...
Cole Hamels for the farm system?... doubtful.. Hamels is a 2 month rental..

The players the Indians could/should consider bringing in may involve a 'bad contract' and a piece that makes all the sense in the world: Matt Garza and Alphonso Soriano.. The Cubs, no doubt, would LOVE to have someone/anyone take Soriano's contract off their books. There has been numerous stories indicating the only way the Cubs can 'trade' Soriano is if they pay all or almost all of the salary due to him to play someplace elsewhere. As of this writing, the Cubs are on the hook for just over $ 40 MM through the 2014 season (OUCH). Matt Garza would cost the Indians around $ 3 MM in 2012 and perhaps five times that in 2013, depending on the negotiating process. The good thing about Garza, if he were to be acquired, the Indians would retain his services through the 2013 season and would be rewarded with a compensation draft pick if/when he departs..

So, what do the Cubs want?.. They want what every team rebuilding wants.. young, upside SP / arms and position players that project as ML starters in a year or three.. According to Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com, "The Cubs are looking for young pitching in return for Garza and would love a third baseman they can develop for the future as well. Does this sound like Lonnie Chisenhall? The other pieces that may be included could be damn near anyone in the Indians system not named Francisco Lindor. Names that may interest the Cubs could be: Tony Wolters, Nick Hagadone, Corey Kluber, Giovanni Soto, Rob Bryson, and Dillon Howard. The quantity & quality of the prospects going back to the Cubs would be inversely proportional to the contribution from the Cubs for Alphonso Soriano's very bad contract...

This would represent a "go for it" move by CA.. something he's done once already.. Once bitten.. twice shy?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:07 am

The question is if you'd want Soriano for 2 more seasons. He plays in a hitter friendly environment and his plate discipline has always been an issue. He's also 36-years old. I think I'll pass.

Garza would be great to have. However, I think there are more desperate teams out there.

Also, trading Chisenhall would create a hole at 3rd base.

I don't think the addition of 1 player would give us a huge boost. Maybe if you could trade for a young cost controlled almost superstar (Stanton, Upton, etc.), but I those will be very costly. I'm still a supporter of working with what we have and looking for more shrewd upgrades -- Gaby Sanchez, Bourjos, Kendrys Morales, maybe Headley, Travis Snider, Casper Wells. Guys that have some value now with some upside left for the next couple of seasons.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:41 am

JP_Frost wrote:The question is if you'd want Soriano for 2 more seasons. He plays in a hitter friendly environment and his plate discipline has always been an issue. He's also 36-years old. I think I'll pass.

Garza would be great to have. However, I think there are more desperate teams out there.

Also, trading Chisenhall would create a hole at 3rd base.

I don't think the addition of 1 player would give us a huge boost. Maybe if you could trade for a young cost controlled almost superstar (Stanton, Upton, etc.), but I those will be very costly. I'm still a supporter of working with what we have and looking for more shrewd upgrades -- Gaby Sanchez, Bourjos, Kendrys Morales, maybe Headley, Travis Snider, Casper Wells. Guys that have some value now with some upside left for the next couple of seasons.


Still have doubts Gabby Sanchez is available at all. He's been solid since his demotion and his plate discipline had been top notch (20:19 BB:K).

Bourjos and Morales interest me the most after Sanchez in the names you suggest. Bourjos having so many years of team control remaining has to be highly valued by a club like the Indians.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:12 pm

JP_Frost wrote:The question is if you'd want Soriano for 2 more seasons. He plays in a hitter friendly environment and his plate discipline has always been an issue. He's also 36-years old. I think I'll pass.

Garza would be great to have. However, I think there are more desperate teams out there.

Also, trading Chisenhall would create a hole at 3rd base.

I don't think the addition of 1 player would give us a huge boost. Maybe if you could trade for a young cost controlled almost superstar (Stanton, Upton, etc.), but I those will be very costly. I'm still a supporter of working with what we have and looking for more shrewd upgrades -- Gaby Sanchez, Bourjos, Kendrys Morales, maybe Headley, Travis Snider, Casper Wells. Guys that have some value now with some upside left for the next couple of seasons.


Agree on Chiz. Definitely think you can move him but would need to get a legit 3B like a Headley in a separate deal then too. Unfortunately sounds like the Padres are putting a huge price on Headley though.

Travis Snider is an interesting name. Would be better if he wasn't a lefty. At this point though may be worth seeing if a LaPorta for Snider deal could work...you take our bust power hitter and we'll take yours. Maybe a change of scenery could help both.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:40 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Giancarlo Stanton for the farm system?.. doubtful.. and Stanton is no Manny Ramirez circa 1995...


meh, Value-wise (which is what I said) he is right there with Manny Ramirez (circa 95). Stanton is homering at the same rate (slightly more often actually) in a much larger home park, with an OPS+ right up there with Manny's (143 vs 147)...and he's even younger than Manny was in 1995. Manny had him beat in plate discipline though (by a decent margin), but again value wise, Stanton may be one of the top 5 most valuable hitters as far as trade value goes right now in all of baseball. Harper, Trout....and Stanton has to be right there IMO. In today's game, young power is right up their with a young Ace. Bottom line, Marlins would be crazy to deal Stanton....but then again, they did trade for Ozzie Guillen.... :cool
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The players the Indians could/should consider bringing in may involve a 'bad contract' and a piece that makes all the sense in the world: Matt Garza and Alphonso Soriano.. The Cubs, no doubt, would LOVE to have someone/anyone take Soriano's contract off their books. There has been numerous stories indicating the only way the Cubs can 'trade' Soriano is if they pay all or almost all of the salary due to him to play someplace elsewhere. As of this writing, the Cubs are on the hook for just over $ 40 MM through the 2014 season (OUCH). Matt Garza would cost the Indians around $ 3 MM in 2012 and perhaps five times that in 2013, depending on the negotiating process. The good thing about Garza, if he were to be acquired, the Indians would retain his services through the 2013 season and would be rewarded with a compensation draft pick if/when he departs..

So, what do the Cubs want?.. They want what every team rebuilding wants.. young, upside SP / arms and position players that project as ML starters in a year or three.. According to Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com, "The Cubs are looking for young pitching in return for Garza and would love a third baseman they can develop for the future as well. Does this sound like Lonnie Chisenhall? The other pieces that may be included could be damn near anyone in the Indians system not named Francisco Lindor. Names that may interest the Cubs could be: Tony Wolters, Nick Hagadone, Corey Kluber, Giovanni Soto, Rob Bryson, and Dillon Howard. The quantity & quality of the prospects going back to the Cubs would be inversely proportional to the contribution from the Cubs for Alphonso Soriano's very bad contract...

This would represent a "go for it" move by CA.. something he's done once already.. Once bitten.. twice shy?


I think Soriano is definitely a guy to look at. Obviously the Cubs would have to eat a TON of salary as reports are saying the Tribe can't take on much salary at all this year (sad, but happens when attendance is this pathetic).

I'd be on board with it if the deal was similar to the Fukudome deal last summer. Wouldn't give up much at all for Soriano. Could still see it though since as said the Tribe worked out a deal with the Cubs last summer for an overpaid OFer and the Indians do have some history dealing with Theo Epstein (Crisp and Martinez deals among others).

Garza...I'd love to get him too. I believe a pitcher is just as big (if not bigger) a need as a hitter and gotta love that Garza is not a free agent. Not sure the Tribe will have enough to get him though without dealing Lindor. As JP said, think other teams may be more desperate and offer up a better deal, but definitely worth looking in to IMO.
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