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Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

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Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Offering prospects in a trade is a contest in perception. How your organization can sell them, and how the other organization, and their scouts see them.

Prospects the Indians would offer might include:
- Matt LaPorta
- Jeanmar Gomez
- Jason Donald
- Cord Phelps
- Trevor Crowe
- Davis Huff
- Kevin Slowey


Names other teams would want:
- Tim Fedroff
- Cody Allen
- Jerad Goedert
- Jesus Aguilar
- Tyler Holt

(Note: Everybody would want Lindor. But you gotta think he would be an untouchable).

I wouldn't be happy at all so see one of those names go. But to make a trade, you have to meet in the middle.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:05 pm

You have a different definition of prospect than I do. Cord Phelps is the only player on the first list who has yet to surpass the qualifications of a MLB rookie. At least three of those guys have already been DFA'd in the past.

Aside from Allen and Aguilar I don't think any team would consider anyone on the second list as anything but a throw in. Is there really anyone here who wouldn't give up Fedroff, Goedert and Holt in a heartbeat if it upgraded the 25-man roster? Who wouldn't feel the same about Crowe, Huff and Slowey? Those are the type of guys who are available on waivers (and they have been in the past). You can't get anything of value by offering your AAAA players who are just a different version of what every other organization already has. This is like the other thread, where people are listing a long line of crap they'd give up for one of the better 3B in baseball (who still has 2½ years left on his contract). Honestly, I thought most people on this forum had a better perspective of the game than that.

Possibly building a package around one or two of LaPorta, Gomez, Donald or Phelps can land a good right-handed platoon outfielder (or someone who's a modest upgrade on Damon/Duncan playing every day). I don't think Cleveland is going to trade for anything better than that anyway. I doubt they'd do so with Gomez or Donald though, since it hurts the MLB depth for this year. I think you're going to have to upgrade to at least a level of prospects like Giovanni Soto, Bryce Stowell, Chun Chen, TJ McFarland and TJ House (although agreed that Allen and Aguilar could interest other teams) to get anything that could possibly be better than what they already have.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:16 am

I'd say the first list is more like suspects than prospects. Any of those guys could be like Matt McBride last yr. although none of them are really career minor leaguers like McBride has been so far.

Are there any names ppl would not trade? The few I can think of Lindor, and RRod, maybe LRod too. The true talent (besides a handful of guys) in the Tribes system is at Carolina or lower.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:22 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'd say the first list is more like suspects than prospects. Any of those guys could be like Matt McBride last yr. although none of them are really career minor leaguers like McBride has been so far.

Are there any names ppl would not trade? The few I can think of Lindor, and RRod, maybe LRod too. The true talent (besides a handful of guys) in the Tribes system is at Carolina or lower.


The only untouchable for me is Lindor. Unless we were getting back someone for multiple years that was an impact (3+ WAR) player, there's no way I let him go. The only other person I'd hesitate on is Aguilar, just because 1B is so weak in the system otherwise.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:30 am

Lindor is the only prospect that will bring any kind of an impact bat or arm that will be here for a few years. With the other SS we have in the lower levels, I'd consider it but only for a guy that we'd have control for 3+ years and he'd better be an impact guy. We could get some impact guys with what we have if we'd be willing to swallow some salary.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby indians1 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:13 pm

I may sound like a broken record, but the problem is that we will not get anything of substance in a trade because we have nothing to offer.

Lindor- is a guy that the indians would really not want to part with especially since cabrera is signed with the team for only the next 2 years.

This organization is kind of stuck. I just have a hard time thinking this team can hold off the tigers with fielder and cabrera anchoring that lineup. The white sox have a dominant 1-2 punch in sale and quintana and paul konerko anchoring their lineup.

I hope i am wrong, but this team is still suffering from the absolutely awful drafts of john mirabelli and inability to keep key prospects/players healthy.

Carlos santana is lost at the plate and this team will probably falter in august like last year. This year's team is not even close to the caliber of the 2005 and 2007 teams.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:37 pm

I agree, this organization is kind of stuck in that there are few prospects ready to move up, and the best talent is still somewhat far off.
The big league club lacks several positions, which all of us fans have beat to death discussing. The tribe doesn't have the firepower to pull off huge deals unless they take on salary or over pay to get a deal. Although the club could possibly pull off a deal or two without paying big to add a cpl useful pieces by adding salary, which is possible.
Honestly, I just don't see this club as a true contender for the AL penant this season, maybe they struggle to contend for the wild card. It just seems there are too many holes to fill and not enough bodies. But a trade or two could significantly change this team in a hurry.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Don't underestimate the value of guys like Gomez, McAllister and Kluber. Kluber himself obviously fetched Westbrook in a trade, but remember that J.A Happ was the centerpiece of a trade that got Roy Oswalt. Personally, I think putting a package together of Gomez, one of our outfielders (Fedroff, Neal, Weglarz, Carrerra, LaPorta), and one of our single-A middle infielders not named Lindor would be enough to get a good starter. Maybe not Cole Hamels, but still a good starter.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby indians1 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:49 pm

Edible14 wrote:Don't underestimate the value of guys like Gomez, McAllister and Kluber. Kluber himself obviously fetched Westbrook in a trade, but remember that J.A Happ was the centerpiece of a trade that got Roy Oswalt. Personally, I think putting a package together of Gomez, one of our outfielders (Fedroff, Neal, Weglarz, Carrerra, LaPorta), and one of our single-A middle infielders not named Lindor would be enough to get a good starter. Maybe not Cole Hamels, but still a good starter.


No team is going to offer us anything good for any of those OF's you named. Fedroff is a 25 year old outfielder that does not do anything that good. He doesn't hit for power and doesn't have great speed. Weglarz- is a guy that can't stay healthy and is in his 7th or 8th year with this organization. Carrera is a 4th OF at best. Laporta is what he is- a AAAA player.

We would not even get an average starter for those guys. Most of the time in trades, you have to overpay in prospects.

Right now, our farm system is one of the weakest in major league baseball. No impact prospects on the horizon. Nobody is going to give us an impact guy if any of our supposed impact prospects are still in low A ball. You need to offer somebody is at least at AA. and neal and weglarz won't net us jack.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:20 pm

Edible14 wrote:Don't underestimate the value of guys like Gomez, McAllister and Kluber. Kluber himself obviously fetched Westbrook in a trade, but remember that J.A Happ was the centerpiece of a trade that got Roy Oswalt. Personally, I think putting a package together of Gomez, one of our outfielders (Fedroff, Neal, Weglarz, Carrerra, LaPorta), and one of our single-A middle infielders not named Lindor would be enough to get a good starter. Maybe not Cole Hamels, but still a good starter.


I agree with you in respect to McAllister. I think Gomez and Kluber are more smoke-and-mirror kind of guys, but McAllister has a lot of what you look for when looking at starting pitchers.

I think Zach McAllister would fetch a lot more in a trade than most maythink. I know he's killing it today, but I've been impressed with him in the other starts I've seen of him. A 6'6", 235 lb RHP with an athletic build and a good delivery, arm action and throws consistently between 91-93 mph with some decent downward tilt. That has some real value -- this guy has really turned out well.

The front end of the Indians rotation has un-traditional pitchers -- Justin Masterson is plagued by LHP's with his very low arm slot (a fundamental problem that isn't going away) and Ubaldo Jimenez has a lot of moving pieces in his whacky delivery. Zach McAllister is a traditional, big-bodied, strong-armed RHP with a good delivery and some good athleticism for a guy his size.

I wouldn't want to trade McAllister, but I can guarantee you his name is one of the first that would come up when the Indians are talking trades. I don't mean to say that McAllister is a front of the rotation guy (I think he lacks the knock out breaking ball for that, but today its totally working), but to some teams he is an inexpensive 3 (I guess more conservatively a good 4) starter that can be effective, eat innings and be reasonably reliable on a year-to-year basis. That is worth a lot.

I think McAllister's stock has appreciated a great deal in 2012.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:47 pm

Id agree McAllister is really been working himself into a number 3, which is the ceiling many fans suggested while others said at best a 5. His stock with the tribe is at its highest and he has solidified himself as a legit option for the rotation for the remainder of the season.
The news on Hagadone...hurts, it tells me the Tribe is now in the market for a LH reliever too.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:53 pm

I am beginning to think ACab should get Sundays off.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:55 pm

daingean wrote:Lindor is the only prospect that will bring any kind of an impact bat or arm that will be here for a few years. With the other SS we have in the lower levels, I'd consider it but only for a guy that we'd have control for 3+ years and he'd better be an impact guy. We could get some impact guys with what we have if we'd be willing to swallow some salary.


The guy is in A ball. It is long way from Lake County to a successful big league career - no matter how good he looks. Untouchable - no!
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:46 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:
daingean wrote:Lindor is the only prospect that will bring any kind of an impact bat or arm that will be here for a few years. With the other SS we have in the lower levels, I'd consider it but only for a guy that we'd have control for 3+ years and he'd better be an impact guy. We could get some impact guys with what we have if we'd be willing to swallow some salary.


The guy is in A ball. It is long way from Lake County to a successful big league career - no matter how good he looks. Untouchable - no!


I hear ya but I'm not trading him for a 3 month rental or a Gabby Sanchez type player. The only way I trade Lindor is for an impact guy (we may have to give more than just Lindor) with at least 3 years of control. Then there is the MLB rule where he cannot be traded until 1 year after his signing day (Aug 15). I know we had Tim Costo as a ptbnl (for Reggie Jefferson) less than a year after he signed but I'm not sure if that loop hole was closed.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:46 pm

indians1 wrote:No team is going to offer us anything good for any of those OF's you named. Fedroff is a 25 year old outfielder that does not do anything that good. He doesn't hit for power and doesn't have great speed. Weglarz- is a guy that can't stay healthy and is in his 7th or 8th year with this organization. Carrera is a 4th OF at best. Laporta is what he is- a AAAA player.

We would not even get an average starter for those guys. Most of the time in trades, you have to overpay in prospects.

Right now, our farm system is one of the weakest in major league baseball. No impact prospects on the horizon. Nobody is going to give us an impact guy if any of our supposed impact prospects are still in low A ball. You need to offer somebody is at least at AA. and neal and weglarz won't net us jack.


Again, remember that Jake Westbrook was had simply for Corey Kluber. I would be perfectly happy getting a legitimate middle-of-the-rotation starter for one of our starters down in AA/AAA. History suggests that you don't always have to give up A and B grade prospects to get useful major league contributors. The Indians are certainly lacking in A & B prospects, but they still have plenty of guys that a team looking to deal a veteran on a soon-to-be-expiring contract might be interested in picking up.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:21 pm

daingean wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:
daingean wrote:Lindor is the only prospect that will bring any kind of an impact bat or arm that will be here for a few years. With the other SS we have in the lower levels, I'd consider it but only for a guy that we'd have control for 3+ years and he'd better be an impact guy. We could get some impact guys with what we have if we'd be willing to swallow some salary.


The guy is in A ball. It is long way from Lake County to a successful big league career - no matter how good he looks. Untouchable - no!


I hear ya but I'm not trading him for a 3 month rental or a Gabby Sanchez type player. The only way I trade Lindor is for an impact guy (we may have to give more than just Lindor) with at least 3 years of control. Then there is the MLB rule where he cannot be traded until 1 year after his signing day (Aug 15). I know we had Tim Costo as a ptbnl (for Reggie Jefferson) less than a year after he signed but I'm not sure if that loop hole was closed.


Wasn't closed as of last year (Pomeranz).
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:27 pm

Other teams wants and Indians supply, doesn't exactly "fit". It seems like every team that is attempting to buy a player needs an offensive threat/bat and any pitching they can acquire.. Couple the now repeated comments from CA about the Indians having enough talent/ability provided their potential is reached (as opposed to what Manny Acta has stated: we need a bat), what this says is that the Indians either have to be creative or willing to pony up some pretty good prospects & cash to make a deal happen:

-The Flubs.. are willing to virtually "give away" Alphonso Soriano (a 'report' [not substantiated] had the Cubs picking up 80% of the $ 42MM still owed to Soriano) in exchange for anyone and everyone that can throw, catch and hit & is less than 22 years old...

-The Pirates.. are in first place in the NL Central in spite of having a left side (3B, SS and LF) just a wasteland. The Pirates have some 'untouchable' prospects & may be attempting to acquire Justin Upton from the DBax without using them.. The problem is.. the DBax are very much in the race for the NL wild card.. they'd have to be NUTS or have an equal player coming back to them for a deal with the Pirates to take place.. sadly..the Pirates...don't have that guy to deal.. Ahh.. but the Indians might? Here's a crazy (maybe not so crazy) idea regarding a three way deal.. (Obviously, if there is a time obstacle for making a trade, it would be as a PTBNL, or if on a temp injured list, etc..)

Dbax get: Shin-soo Choo, Justin Wilson and Jared Goedert

Pirates get: Justin Upton, Matt LaPorta, Tony Wolters

Indians get: Starling Marte, Tyler Skaggs, Adelberto Sands and Ryan Wheeler..

The Indians may want to rethink this one.. Choo has been ON FIYAH !! since taking over the role as lead off hitter...
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby BrianM » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:26 pm

Bartolo Colon 2.45 Era his last six starts. Here's a guy we could potentially get for a couple of AAAA players or a higher (not high) upside prospect (Soto, McFarland, Monsalve).
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Chiefroy » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:37 pm

BrianM wrote:Bartolo Colon 2.45 Era his last six starts. Here's a guy we could potentially get for a couple of AAAA players or a higher (not high) upside prospect (Soto, McFarland, Monsalve).



Bingo! I think this is more the path we'll explore. Colon, Guthrie, Millwood types. Vets who can eat innings and pitch a gem every now and then.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby BrianM » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:36 pm

^ I like the idea of Millwood a lot for some reason, but Seattle is already struggling to put together a major league rotation. I also just read an article about Danny Hultzen's struggles since being promoted to their triple A club and how he may not get a call up till 2013. He would be the preferred choice of the options above, but I imagine he would be a bit more expensive than the others...but then again, I really have no idea.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:40 am

Arizona Dbax appear to be in "flux" trying to determine if they're going to be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline. The Dbax are four games behind the Los Angeles Dodgers for the lead in the NL West. They also have 8 teams ahead of them for one of the NL wild cards. It might be a bit premature to "cash in" on Upton, but, in three weeks, all of that can change. There have been several sites proclaiming Justin Upton as being available in trade. Upton would be the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink. He is 24 years old and plays excellent defense. What would you be willing to sacrifice for him?

Francisco Lindor? (as a PTBNL.. because we all know that you can't trade a player for one year after signing)

Scott Barnes?

others?

thoughts?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:56 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Arizona Dbax appear to be in "flux" trying to determine if they're going to be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline. The Dbax are four games behind the Los Angeles Dodgers for the lead in the NL West. They also have 8 teams ahead of them for one of the NL wild cards. It might be a bit premature to "cash in" on Upton, but, in three weeks, all of that can change. There have been several sites proclaiming Justin Upton as being available in trade. Upton would be the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink. He is 24 years old and plays excellent defense. What would you be willing to sacrifice for him?

Francisco Lindor? (as a PTBNL.. because we all know that you can't trade a player for one year after signing)

Scott Barnes?

others?

thoughts?


Definitely premature. Upton is not an FA until 2016 so 3 1/2 years of control for an .800+ OPS guy. Yes I'd trade Lindor for him considering that SS is our depest position in the minors. I think we'd need to add another piece to the equation to get it done (after all it took Pom and White to get Ubaldo last year....so add in a Luigi or Miles) but I think the DBax would want a piece closer to ML ready and I don't see anything we have at AAA would be enough to go along with Lindor.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:05 am

I'd give up a lot to get Upton, but I'm not sure we've got enough bullets to beat offers that other teams could make.

The package would have to start with Chiz and Lindor and be added to with pitching. You're not just trading for Upton, you're trading for 3+ years of control - that carries high value!

It's all a moot point anyway.... he's got Cleveland on his 4 team no trade list (Oak, Det, KC, Cle).

If you make a guy's top 4 places he doesn't want to be traded to, I don't see him changing his mind on that two years later.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:24 am

Chiz, Lindor and Masterson is probably what the Dbacks would want. I wouldn't make that trade, unless the Dbacks throw in a solid pitching prospect or you can trade Choo for a legit starter.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:51 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Chiz, Lindor and Masterson is probably what the Dbacks would want. I wouldn't make that trade, unless the Dbacks throw in a solid pitching prospect or you can trade Choo for a legit starter.


While I'm sure they'd want that package it's also pretty ridiculous IMO. I agree on Chiz and Lindor, but throwing in Masterson is just crazy considering the down year Upton is having. I wouldn't trade Masterson straight up for Upton right now, and not sure there's a player in baseball that'd I'd deal Chiz, Lindor, and Masterson for. Do think you'd have to start with Lindor and Chiz though in a deal for Upton and they would want more, but IMO you can't deal Masterson. And don't really understand the logic of getting Upton (while losing Masterson) then dealing Choo for a legit SP. Doesn't really make this club any better since Choo is having a better year than Upton. Would arguably make the Indians worse...

Probably a moot point as at one time it was reported that the Indians were on Upton's no-trade list anyways.


I'd still check in though on him (can't hurt). Would also ask about Chris Young. Having a down year but still has 8 HRs and would fill a need. Kind of scary how bad he's been since May (batting .136 since June 1st). Does have an OPS over .900 though against lefties this year. D'backs may not want to sell low on him but worth a call at least.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:54 pm

I'm talking long term. Choo will go elsewhere eventually.

Either way, we're not just one bat or pitcher away from being serious contenders. We need more than that, so I wouldn't make a blockbuster deal this year. Just ride it out, see if you can upgrade at a decent cost (like Gaby Sanchez) and wait for some help out of the farm system.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Bearcatbob » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:17 pm

IMO - pitching is NOT our greatest need. If we get a pitcher - who leaves the rotation. We NEED a HITTER!
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I'm talking long term. Choo will go elsewhere eventually.

Either way, we're not just one bat or pitcher away from being serious contenders. We need more than that, so I wouldn't make a blockbuster deal this year. Just ride it out, see if you can upgrade at a decent cost (like Gaby Sanchez) and wait for some help out of the farm system.


I think this is the Indians' main problem. This team was built to compete in 2012-2013 and possibly 2014. The White/Pomeranz for Ubaldo trade was basically pulling the Pomeranz/White production forward a couple years to concentrate talent toward this year and next before Choo, Cabrera, Perez, Jimenez, Masterson, etc. get too expensive or leave via free agency.

I don't really see anything coming out of the farm system for a couple of years, unless you're talking about Chisenhall or some middle relief guys. As you say, Choo (and presumably Cabrera, Masterson, Jimenez, others) will be gone, and I believe will be gone before the farm system produces much.

I think the Indians need to evaluate the team; if they don't think this team can compete in 2012 or 2013, they need to trade guys like Asdrubal, Choo, Masterson, etc. to build for 2014 and on. You could only deal those guys for AA or AAA (preferably younger, but yet to be effective, MLB players). We'll see what the Indians do -- I doubt they do anything this year, but I don't think playing to be a .500 team (arguably the path the Indians are currently on) accomplishes much.

Optimistically, Santana gets his act in order, Ubaldo continues to improve, the Indians get a decent LF or 1B via trade, and Zach McAllister steps up to be a solid 3-4 guy -- if these things happen (all are reasonably w/in the realm of possibility), the Indians have a real shot at winning the division, but the stars need to align.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby ironmike » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:20 am

Ohio Baseball, excellent post.

What you breezed over is just how bad our minor league upper levels are regardind a lack talent. Who is to blame? For more than a decade the Indians have not produced an outstanding postion player of their own. Yet, folks here argue the rankings of Keith Law and celebrate our prospects. The Indians get a grade "F" and no organization insiders have lost their jobs? The culprit, got promoted to team President.

What does that tell you about the state of our organization?

IMO they are going nowhere. Although I do give Antonetti credit for being aggressive in obtaining Ubaldo. He needs to do more of this if they even have a chance of competing during this window of opportunity. I say make the moves that dictate a competitive team over the next 2-3 years, win now at all cost.

Sad to say, there is not ONE position player on our 2012 team that could start on our great 90's teams. Those teams and the talent were the formula for competitive post season success. The 2012 Indians aren't even close to this. That is the real reason the fans stay away. They witnessed bad teams for decades, experienced a run of winning teams and now know very well the difference between the two. The fans can't be fooled and choose to spend their dollars elswhere.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:55 am

ironmike wrote:Ohio Baseball, excellent post.

What you breezed over is just how bad our minor league upper levels are regardind a lack talent. Who is to blame? For more than a decade the Indians have not produced an outstanding postion player of their own. Yet, folks here argue the rankings of Keith Law and celebrate our prospects. The Indians get a grade "F" and no organization insiders have lost their jobs? The culprit, got promoted to team President.

What does that tell you about the state of our organization?

IMO they are going nowhere. Although I do give Antonetti credit for being aggressive in obtaining Ubaldo. He needs to do more of this if they even have a chance of competing during this window of opportunity. I say make the moves that dictate a competitive team over the next 2-3 years, win now at all cost.

Sad to say, there is not ONE position player on our 2012 team that could start on our great 90's teams. Those teams and the talent were the formula for competitive post season success. The 2012 Indians aren't even close to this. That is the real reason the fans stay away. They witnessed bad teams for decades, experienced a run of winning teams and now know very well the difference between the two. The fans can't be fooled and choose to spend their dollars elswhere.


It's funny that our system was considered top 10 not so long ago. There are reasons why it isn't ranked so highly anymore: trades and promotions.The talent is now in the lower minors instead of AA/AAA. You can spin this as incompetence from the FO, but I see all kind of people hre throwing around big names we should target and thinking we have the pieces to get them. If our farm system is so bad, then how can we upgrade via trade?

Also the last couple of drafts have been considered by many to be very good and a definite step up from the years prior to that. Obviously those players can fizzle out in low A ball, but that's the name of the game.

I understand the infatuation with the 90's, but those were different times with different financial restraints (or lack thereof). And let's not forget that the farm system was barren when Shapiro took over. If you look at the 1995 roster for example, only 3 players were homegrown (as in drafted by the Indians):

Thome
Belle
Manny

Obviously those guys are all either borderline or surefire HOF'ers, but it's not like that lineup was litterd with Tribe draftees. Another thing to consider is luck. Sometimes the stars align and raw prospects pan out, veterans get a second wind and underachievers break out.

Cherish those times, but don't use them as a standard.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:13 pm

From Rany Jazayerli at Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/680 ... -make-deal )

...For the most part, Cleveland's scavenger approach to team building has been a masterpiece of roster construction. The cheapest way to field a roster is through the draft, but the Indians own the fifth-lowest payroll in baseball and have somehow put together a competitive team with almost no homegrown talent. Cleveland is the only major league franchise that doesn't have at least one player in its lineup who came up through the organization's farm system. Only starters Fausto Carmona and Josh Tomlin, along with middle relievers Rafael Perez, Tony Sipp, and Vinny Pestano were signed as amateurs.1

Building a winner with other teams' spare parts is a tradition of sorts in Cleveland. Even when the Indians emerged from 40 years in the desert to go 100-44 in 1995, the best record by any team since 1954,2 most of their hitters had been plucked away from other organizations. Some were acquired in legitimate trades (Sandy Alomar and Carlos Baerga were prospects acquired for Joe Carter) and some were flat-out stolen from unsuspecting organizations. Kenny Lofton came in exchange for Eddie Taubensee; the Indians traded Felix Fermin and Reggie Jefferson for Omar Vizquel. Eddie Murray was 38 years old when Cleveland signed him as a free agent, gambling that he wasn't washed up — and he wasn't.

But the 1995 Indians were also built around three homegrown players: Jim Thome, Albert Belle, and Manny Ramirez. Setting aside when and how Ramirez may or may not have used PEDs, there's no question that both he and Thome have had Hall of Fame-caliber careers, and Belle was on a Hall of Fame trajectory before a degenerative hip forced him to retire at 34.

The blueprint for the 2011 Indians, on the other hand, didn't have space for homegrown talent. Evidently, that blueprint consisted mostly of performing Jedi mind tricks on other franchises' general managers.

In June 2006, the Seattle Mariners were looking for some veteran talent and Indians GM Mark Shapiro was happy to provide it. Shapiro shipped Eduardo Perez to the Emerald City, and the platoon first basemen wound up hitting .195 with one homer for the Mariners before retiring. In exchange, the Indians received a minor league shortstop who was hitting .236/.323/.360. That shortstop was just 20 years old and already in Triple-A. Asdrubal Cabrera debuted with Cleveland the following year, and this season he emerged as perhaps the best-hitting shortstop in the American League and made his first All-Star team.

Shapiro wasn't done toying with the Mariners and their general manager, Bill Bavasi. Seattle's thirst for platoon first basemen was apparently unquenchable; a month after acquiring Perez they would ask for Ben Broussard, who hit .238 with 8 homers for the Mariners. At least Broussard managed to hang around another season before hanging up his spikes. In return, Cleveland obtained Shin-Soo Choo, a former top prospect who couldn't crack the Mariners' lineup despite hitting .323/.394/.499 in Triple-A. Choo became the Indians' starting right fielder in 2008 and has been one of the best all-around players in baseball ever since.

Seattle finished 78-84 that year, good for last place in the AL West. Bavasi no longer works for the Mariners, and he never did find the droids he was looking for.

Two years later, the Los Angeles Dodgers needed a third baseman at the trade deadline, and once again Shapiro was ready to deal. The Dodgers received Casey Blake, a competent everyday player in the last year of his contract. Competent players with expiring contracts rarely fetch premium talent, but the Indians offered to pick up the remaining salary on Blake's contract3, which helped them land Carlos Santana. At the time, Santana was already considered one of the game's best catching prospects; now, he is considered one of the best young catchers, period. While Santana's career batting average is just .236, this season he has already drawn 102 walks and hit 21 homers, and most scouts think the best is yet to come.

Cabrera, Choo, and Santana — a third of the Indians' lineup — were all acquired for pocket lint, in deals so lopsided they would have been vetoed by your fantasy league commissioner. Yet all three trades pale in comparison to the great heist of 2002, when the Montreal Expos found themselves five games back in the wild card race at the end of June. Montreal GM Omar Minaya quite sensibly reasoned that since the Expos might not exist for much longer, he might as well sell his farm before the franchise bought the farm. The Indians sent Bartolo Colon to Montreal for Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, and a toolsy teenage outfielder named Grady Sizemore.

The Indians gave up on Phillips before he reached his potential and dealt Lee in another deadline trade in 2009. Sizemore, however, developed into one of the most exciting players in baseball; he was an All-Star and MVP contender each year from 2006 to 2008. Serious knee issues have threatened Sizemore's career, but when healthy this season he has been an above-average centerfielder.

The four trades rank among the most one-sided deals in recent memory, and all four were tilted in the Indians' favor. But wait, there's more! In December, 2002, the Indians traded backup catcher Einar Diaz and soft-tossing right-hander Ryan Drese to Texas for an old Triple-A slugger named Travis Hafner. The Rangers thought Hafner's minor league numbers — he hit .342/.463/.559 in Triple-A — were an illusion. They were wrong. Hafner was one of the most feared hitters in baseball from 2004 to 2007; like Sizemore, injuries have crippled him the past few years, but this season Hafner is healthy and batting .312/.403/.503 as the team's starting DH.

Jedi mind tricks only go so far, and the Indians have been forced to trade actual ballplayers to acquire most of their other players. The 2007 Indians won 96 games and came within a game of the World Series; when that team faltered over the next two seasons, Shapiro traded his assets to acquire many of the building blocks for this year's team....


As far as the drafts.. teams hit on guys who become stars.. most fall by the wayside.. At the time of the draft..the best information available is used to select the best player that fits the complete needs of the team. If the player is injured or stalls along the way.. IT'S NOT THE GM's FAULT.. QUIT being lazy by looking to lay BLAME.. It gets you NOTHING..

In summary, without the work and effort of Mark Shapiro, the Indians wouldn't be here. While that can't be argued either way, it's pretty clear, the ability to support a club with payroll can only last a few years. Dick Jacobs knew that and sold the club before he would have been force to tear down what Hank Peters, John Hart, Mark Shapiro had built, period.. It's about time the "blame Mark Shapiro" banter ends.. It's a fruitless / wasted reconstruction of the truth..
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby ironmike » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:58 pm

Three players or three Hall of Famer's?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:19 am

It's hard to imagine how bad the Tribe would be today without the deals that brought Lee, Choo, Cabrera, Hafner and Santana in exchange for "pocket lint". Lee was traded for Carrasco, Marson, and Donald.

The article didn't mention a couple more deals. The Tribe traded three minor league pitchers to the Cubs for Mark DeRosa, then flipped DeRo for Chris Perez.

They also got Zach McAlister for the corpse of Austin Kearns and Scott Barnes for the corpse of Ryan Garko. Those deals haven't paid off yet but you can see the potential.

Unfortunately, it's getting harder to make those kinds of deals as GM's have backed off trading quality prospects like Asdrubal for fading veterans at the end of their careers like Eduardo Perez or marginal players like Broussard.

The Indians have to start hitting on some draft picks because the days of trading pocket lint for future All-Stars are pretty much over.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:44 am

Bearcatbob wrote:IMO - pitching is NOT our greatest need. If we get a pitcher - who leaves the rotation. We NEED a HITTER!


Who leaves the rotation? Any one of the bottom 3. Lowe, Tomlin, or McAllister could go to the pen, replacing Accardo or Rogers. Those two have been pretty good, but either(esp. Rogers) could lose it at any moment. It would have to be an obvious upgrade at SP of course. Acquiring a guy like Ryan Dempster would give us 3 starters capable of shutting down anyone and would give us a real shot if we make the playoffs.

Both our pitching and hitting have been good of late. Tony Sipp has shown improvement and I think he is key to our bullpen performance. The last week before the break, our offense led the AL in virtually every category, so that was encouraging also. Sure, we need another bat or two, but a consistent, front-of-the-rotation starter would not only upgrade the rotation, but also the bullpen. Good pitching would allow us to string wins together and put a brake on losing streaks. We're gonna need some 5,6,7-game win streaks because Chicago and Detroit are surely capable of putting streaks together and leaving us in the dust.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:32 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:IMO - pitching is NOT our greatest need. If we get a pitcher - who leaves the rotation. We NEED a HITTER!


The Indians are currently 13th out of 14 teams in the AL in Team ERA ahead of only the Twins. The Indians starters haven't been quite as bad overall as they are ranked 9th. However, the Indians are ranked 6th out of 14 teams in the AL in runs scored per game, ahead of the "mighty" Detroit Tigers even (as well as the Angels, Rays, and Orioles).

The Indians do need a hitter, but the pitching has been much worse than the offense this year and we definitely could use help on that front. Other than McAllister (who only has 7 starts), our best starter is Justin Masterson...with an ERA+ of 88. That is terrible. Tomlin is sitting with an ERA of nearly 5.50. I know people love him cause he doesn't walk guys, but he could easily be bumped from this rotation and his ERA+ of 71 is actually worse than both Damon and Kotchman's OPS+ (76 and 88, respectively).

Again, the offense needs help, absolutely agree there....but this pitching staff would be one of the worst to ever see the playoffs if we made it.


The Indians are not in 2nd place because of their offense. The White Sox are only in 5th in runs scored per game. The White Sox are in 1st because their pitchers are pitching MUCH better than the Tribe's this year (6th overall, 5th best rotation). Now maybe all the rotation fixes will come from within. Maybe McAllister will continue to pitch like a #3, maybe Masteron and Ubaldo will continue to improve and be a solid 1-2 punch, maybe Lowe holds out as a #3/4 and maybe Tomlin starts pitching like he did in April/May 2011....but I'd still rather see a rotation addition of some kind, even if it's only a Colon-type pitcher.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:35 am

Whether the Indians add a bat or a starting pitcher might depend on what's available and for what price. However, the offense is definitely trending up lately, and Hafner's return only helps.

Lowe is the guy I'm worried about. At age 39 and with an 88 mph fastball he's doing it with smoke and mirrors. Same with Tomlin to some extent, although that last start where he pitched a 2-hit shutout over seven innings was encouraging. We should find out in his next couple of starts whether that was a fluke.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:16 am

Prosecutor disagree with your comments regarding Tomlin. His total work package with the Indians over time has been better than adequate. He's a pitcher, not a thrower. McAllister is the guy we should be concerned with. Want to see how he does the second and time around when he faces teams down the stretch, especially teams in our division.

Our team run production is not good enough to make the playoffs, yet alone contend for a WS title. Our team pitching has ditto. Score more runs per game and all of the sudden the pitching looks better. You argued my 835+ per season, however, score that many runs in a season and I'd like our chances.

We need more talent period. Another starter and a RH impact bat, if the team really wants to contend.

Regarding Derek Lowe, you could be correct. If he does falter, he could effectively pitch out of the bullpen, spot start, and long relief. He's kinda like Paul Byrd, a helluva competitor, so one never knows. He does have the ability to rise to the occasion. Would not count him out in a big game. If his sinker is working, he difficult to get the ball in the air.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:45 am

The Tribe should be adding another asset to utilize in the next couple weeks. Tony pointed this out on Twitter... The competitive balance lottery pk for next yrs draft a pk that will land as a comp rd pk in either the 1st or 2nd rd and it is tradable.
That could come into play as the Tribe seeks creative ways to add to this club. I'd try to pkg the pk as a valued commodity.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:38 am

So, in theory this pick has the value of a D.Howard or M.Brown, right? Maybe even more since it ups the draft budget by 10-15% for the buying team on top of it

If so, then I'd say this pick is our 2nd most valuable trade chip after Lindor
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 pm

Yes, the pick will fall in the 30-45 pk range or the 75-100 range, just to give a bit of perspective. I'd say Mitch Brown and Dillon Howard are the type talents that would be available.

This pk could be very useful every yr if utilized for its potential haul in a trade or even if the Tribe makes the pk.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:08 pm

@ Tondo,
Great point, the pk does add overall value to the teams draft of anywhere of $600k (2nd rd) to potentially $1+mil. (1st rd).
Either way the Tribe utilizes it, it will be a nice piece to add great value to the club.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:58 pm

Tondo wrote:So, in theory this pick has the value of a D.Howard or M.Brown, right? Maybe even more since it ups the draft budget by 10-15% for the buying team on top of it

If so, then I'd say this pick is our 2nd most valuable trade chip after Lindor


I don't think this supplemental pick has that much value. The Indians already paid for Dillon Howard and Mitch Brown; if you trade a draft pick, it's also associated with a liability (the money you have to spend to sign the talent).

Trading Dillon Howard or Mitch Brown (theoretically) does not have the financial liability that the draft pick does, which would be roughly $750k or so.

This comp pick has value, but not as much as the prospects that have already been paid for by the Indians.

ALSO, if you get a draft pick, you've got no idea who the player you'll ultimately select will be. If you trade for Howard, you know you're getting Howard -- the draft pick comes with uncertainty, which hurts the value.

The financial liability and uncertainty attached to the draft pick hurts its value.

Besides, we don't even know if the Indians will get a 1st supplemental or 2nd supplemental pick out of this. Does anyone know when this will be announced?
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:11 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I'd give up a lot to get Upton, but I'm not sure we've got enough bullets to beat offers that other teams could make.

The package would have to start with Chiz and Lindor and be added to with pitching. You're not just trading for Upton, you're trading for 3+ years of control - that carries high value!

It's all a moot point anyway.... he's got Cleveland on his 4 team no trade list (Oak, Det, KC, Cle).

If you make a guy's top 4 places he doesn't want to be traded to, I don't see him changing his mind on that two years later.


Agree mostly though I guess some recent reports are suggesting that 3 of the 4 teams he had on his no-trade list are different this year and the Yankees are one of the new teams. Still a chance Cleveland is on it though of those 4 teams...Oakland would be my guess (though probably some homerish in that logic).
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:08 pm

@ ohiobaseball,
Disagree, I don't believe the financial aspect will come into play. Teams could be turned on to the extra pk with its financial flexibility attached (over / under slot pk). I believe that was Tondo's point.
As for date, Tony said in coming days...not sure yet.

@ hermie13,
I believe if the Tribe is still on the list, the Tribe and Dbax could ask Upton to wave his no trade. Some teams offer a little extra comp. to players to get them to budge, I'm not sure the Tribe would but I'd give it a shot.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:07 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ ohiobaseball,
Disagree, I don't believe the financial aspect will come into play. Teams could be turned on to the extra pk with its financial flexibility attached (over / under slot pk). I believe that was Tondo's point.
As for date, Tony said in coming days...not sure yet..


The financial aspect absolutely has importance.

It's as easy as this; What would you rather have? (1) Mitch Brown and $850k (in savings) or (2) just Mitch Brown?

You don't even know what player you're going to get with a draft pick.

A supplemental pick will have value, but I think teams will certainly value real players over the uncertainty that a sandwich round pick gives them.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:25 pm

I can see exactly what you are saying. If you said I'll trade you Mitch Brown for the 79 th pk I'd make that deal.

Some teams would prefer the pk. That's my point, I understand if a team could get a guy paid by another team they would do it, some teams would simply prefer and value draft pks. The added pk adds money to the budget to utilize as the team sees fit. It also would provide the team the flexibility to make the pk.

From my understanding the competitive balance lottery will take place prior to the trade deadline. The Tribe will receive at least a second rd comp. pk but potentially a first rd comp. pk.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby danh8 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Honestly, I don't want CA to be dealing away anymore of our top prospects. Those are the kids that are down in High A and below that have some real promise. Very little that we have in AAA or AA I would blink an eye if we sent them away because so little exists at those levels that I would really see as a prospect worth anything. Soto in AA is a kid I see with a promising future, and McCallister who really should just stay with the Indians form here on out.

This season isn't going to be poroducing us any playoffs, and we need to keep the kids that we have that hold true promise for a better future with us, and develop them so that we have a chance to reach a higher plateau in three years when they are making it to the majors.

I truly believe we have a couple nice waves that will be coming through in around 2014-2016 that could make for a nice base.

Do what we can to keep what kids we have at the major league level with ability with us ...just stay away from free agency altogether and strictly stay within the organization.. save as much as possible so we can hang on to guys that can form a veteran base like Masterson, Santana, Kipnis, Brantley, Marson, Pestano, and Perez ...trade those we can't afford to keep early to bolster the pool of kids we draw from through the system.

We seem to be doing a better job developing some position bats in the lower levels, and the future does appear to be getting brighter under Brad Grant's eye.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:06 pm

ironmike wrote:You argued my 835+ per season, however, score that many runs in a season and I'd like our chances.


Considering there are currently zero teams in all of baseball on pace to score 835 runs....not sure why you keep bringing it up.

If you added Josh Hamilton to this team, we woudln't be an 835 run team.

Scoring a ton of runs is one way to win...then again, pitching well is a great way to win too, just ask the Rays.

As Antonetti pointed out on Saturday, the Tribe needs a pitcher as much if not more than a hitter (though we definitely could use both).
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby daingean » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:49 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
ironmike wrote:You argued my 835+ per season, however, score that many runs in a season and I'd like our chances.


Considering there are currently zero teams in all of baseball on pace to score 835 runs....not sure why you keep bringing it up.

If you added Josh Hamilton to this team, we woudln't be an 835 run team.

Scoring a ton of runs is one way to win...then again, pitching well is a great way to win too, just ask the Rays.

As Antonetti pointed out on Saturday, the Tribe needs a pitcher as much if not more than a hitter (though we definitely could use both).


I understand the cry for a pitcher but I'm not buying that we need a pitcher more than a hitter. Without a RH threat in our line-up, we let teams with even mediocre lefties in the BP shut us down. Teams that can throw a lefty at us for 2-3 innings can be effective with only using a 2 man bullpen (per game). When Daren Oliver can go 2 innings against us (his 2nd longest outing of the year), we are at a disadvantage. This disadvantage is greater than our need for pitching.
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Re: Prospects we would offer,,and what other teams want

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:24 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ironmike wrote:You argued my 835+ per season, however, score that many runs in a season and I'd like our chances.


Considering there are currently zero teams in all of baseball on pace to score 835 runs....not sure why you keep bringing it up.

If you added Josh Hamilton to this team, we woudln't be an 835 run team.

Scoring a ton of runs is one way to win...then again, pitching well is a great way to win too, just ask the Rays.

As Antonetti pointed out on Saturday, the Tribe needs a pitcher as much if not more than a hitter (though we definitely could use both).


I understand the cry for a pitcher but I'm not buying that we need a pitcher more than a hitter. Without a RH threat in our line-up, we let teams with even mediocre lefties in the BP shut us down. Teams that can throw a lefty at us for 2-3 innings can be effective with only using a 2 man bullpen (per game). When Daren Oliver can go 2 innings against us (his 2nd longest outing of the year), we are at a disadvantage. This disadvantage is greater than our need for pitching.


The sad truth is that even if Carlos Quentin and Matt Garza and Carlos Quentin were donated to the Tribe, at no cost, it's still not likely the Indians would win the division. This is a patchwork team with question marks all over.
We were all fooled in the off season by over analyzing. Santana has declined in performance instead of improving. Masterson and Ubaldo have been consistently inconsistent. One guy, or even two, might not make the difference.
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