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Fixing the Lineup...

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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:13 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Getting Grady and Hafner and Hernandez back would help tremendously if each was the player from 2007 or so. I expect little from Hafner and Hernandez and less from Sizemore.
We need two solid right-handed bats but have no faith that we will get even one. Santana is currently our worst hitter and needs to sit till he gets his head out of his butt. We have holes in left and at first. Jose freaking Lopez is our clean-up hitter. Our best hope may be Trevor Crowe.
This season is getting downright ugly...


While this stretch of the season has been ugly..the club is at .500 heading into the homestretch before the All Star Break. That's when the season really starts.. The Indians have a four spot against the O's, followed by visits to the north coast by the Angels and Rays.. This could be a fun and interesting week...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:10 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
daingean wrote:I am thinking that if Santana is going to be a core player, it may be best to move him from behind the plate. I think he's overwhelmed with the nuances in calling games and it is affecting him at the plate. Starting this fall, teach him how to play the OF. It would be a shame to waste his arm at 1B.


Am I the only person who thinks Santana is simply still being effected by the fact that he suffered a concussion earlier this month?

Also that he's in a lineup that doesn't have Travis Hafner around him? Michael Brantley batting 5th?

I dont buy that it's as simple as it's too much for him to be a catcher as well as a productive hitter.


I definitely think moving Santana to the OF is something to consider. He does get beat up behind the plate and could help his bat. Don't think it's a move that needs to be made though, but definitely something the Tribe should consider IMO only in that they've struggled to find a bat for the OF and could potentially give Marson more playing time if they felt he could handle it offensively.

I agree with GoTribe, gotta wonder how that concussion has affected him. And agree 100% that a problem is likely that he has no protection in the lineup. Still drawing walks but has been swinging at more pitches out of the zone it seems and trying to do too much with pitches he does get to hit. Brantley has hit ok but is hardly a guy you want protecting your cleanup hitter in the lineup. Not a big Hafner fan but he at least provided some kind of protection behind Santana. Don't think catching is the main cause for his struggles either but could be a small part of it.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:49 pm

Prosecutor wrote,
I'd bench Kotchman, put Santana at first, and bring up either Crowe, Goedert, or Neal to play left field.

Oh, and the reason the Tribe is a .500 team so far is that they were simply unable to afford to keep CC and Cliff Lee, and they couldn't afford Josh Willingham, Carlos Beltran, or Carlos Lee. It's all about the money. They end up signing bargain basement types like Kotchman and Johnny Damon and Derek Lowe and Chad Durbin. If absolutely everything goes right they have a shot. But that never happens, and not this year either, with injuries to Carrasco, Sizemore, and Hafner, the Carmona situation, and a bad year so far from Santana.


Agree with moving Santana to first base, not with Crowe, Godedert or Neal, more stiffs with no value to any team but in the eyes of the beholder and their fanatical minor league followers.

Get a new owner, clean house, there is a real story for a daring up and coming reporter to write and to set himself apart and ... tell the real truth.

There are potential new owners out there, but they won't buy a franchise for the $$$ the Dolan's need to recover because they ran the dam thing into the ground.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:44 pm

ironmike wrote:Prosecutor wrote,
I'd bench Kotchman, put Santana at first, and bring up either Crowe, Goedert, or Neal to play left field.

Oh, and the reason the Tribe is a .500 team so far is that they were simply unable to afford to keep CC and Cliff Lee, and they couldn't afford Josh Willingham, Carlos Beltran, or Carlos Lee. It's all about the money. They end up signing bargain basement types like Kotchman and Johnny Damon and Derek Lowe and Chad Durbin. If absolutely everything goes right they have a shot. But that never happens, and not this year either, with injuries to Carrasco, Sizemore, and Hafner, the Carmona situation, and a bad year so far from Santana.


Agree with moving Santana to first base, not with Crowe, Godedert or Neal, more stiffs with no value to any team but in the eyes of the beholder and their fanatical minor league followers.

Get a new owner, clean house, there is a real story for a daring up and coming reporter to write and to set himself apart and ... tell the real truth.

There are potential new owners out there, but they won't buy a franchise for the $$$ the Dolan's need to recover because they ran the dam thing into the ground.

Dolan ain't sellin' unless he gets what he paid for the team. We have as much chance for a new owner as I have of selling my house for what it was worth 3 years ago. How the hell a professional sports franchise can't afford Willingham's 3yr/$21millon salary & stay solvent is beyond me. They wasted $5 million on Grady, $3 million on Carmona, & $3 million on Kotchman, plus a bunch more on nickel & dime BS.

If Dolan started a rental car business he opt for a larger fleet full of clunkers rather than a smaller fleet of new cars; then he'd wonder why business was so bad.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby indians1 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:32 pm

I don't think the dolans vetoed the willingham signing. Dolan does not tell shapiro and antonetti whom to spend the money on. They give those guys a budget and they spend it.

The indians philosophy of trying to get as many signings and hoping one or two work out has not worked. They have been doing these type of signings for a while and they need to do smart signings.

The dolans get unfair criticism on spending money. they don't operate any differently than dick jacobs. Jacobs never broke the bank on free agents and mostly signed free agents on the downside of their careers.

The only differnce (and it is a big difference) is the indians of the 90's had star players in belle, lofton, thome, and ramirez.

you can criticize dolan for not hiring the right talent evaluators but you can't criticize him for not spending money.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:12 pm

I thought the reason they didn't sign Willingham was that they already had Grady, who wasn't hurt at the time. So the starting OF was supposed to be Grady-Bradley-Choo, and the big hole was 1B, where Willingham would be a defensive liability. DH was taken by Hafner. In retrospect, I would have much preferred the Indians to pass on Grady and sign Willingham, but at the time I understood why they passed on him.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby indians1 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:00 pm

Edible14 wrote:I thought the reason they didn't sign Willingham was that they already had Grady, who wasn't hurt at the time. So the starting OF was supposed to be Grady-Bradley-Choo, and the big hole was 1B, where Willingham would be a defensive liability. DH was taken by Hafner. In retrospect, I would have much preferred the Indians to pass on Grady and sign Willingham, but at the time I understood why they passed on him.


I guess we should just ask "What if "?
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:08 am

You can criticize Dolan for not hiring the right talent evaluators but you can't criticize him for not spending money.


Agree.

Real easy to understand what has happened to the Indians. Jacobs hired Hank Peters who in turn hired and groomed John Hart a baseball lifer as our GM. We enjoyed the GREATEST era in the history of Cleveland Indians baseball. Any one who argues this has their own personal agenda. Which means? They don't like the poster or they are a nit wit.

Dolan, hired Shapiro who was a football player at Princeton with a silver tongue. Therein lies the destruction of the Cleveland Indians. If one reads quotes from Shapiro in the book Dealings, he openly admits his shortfalls were talent evalution. He was portrayed as a lacking GM in the book, Money Ball. He said Youklis walked like a duck.

That led to hiring by Shapiro for the wrong people to surround himself with. He failed to build a good inner circle. When any of us start a new job the first time we all make mistakes. He was no exception. A while back when trying to prove a point, counted 17 players Shapiro either released or traded for players who no longer were even playing in the ML's. Then look at all the free agent busts they signed. Matt Lawton being a massive blunder. Still have the list on my desktop. This kind of stuff gets shuffeld under the rug and no reporter will right the real story. They won't touch negativity for fear of losing their jobs. Shapiro made a few decent trades for Cabrera and Choo, but his overall won-loss record and trade / signing resume was and remains a damaging negative. Then there was the farm system during his reign ... Grade F.

The Indians will be lucky to finish above .500. Momentum and improvement for mid-market teams is built over time with all cylinders clicking simutaneously including; schrewd drafting, good player development and coaching, excellent trades and just the right additions through free agency when applicable. The Indians have been unable to overcome to date all the lacking positives needed to continue moving in the right direction. Just watch what the CWS and Tigers do to add to the pile by the trade deadline. KC is improving too.

Antonetti isn't afraid to gamble and pull the trigger, but his hands are tied from lack of funds and he can't overcome the lack of results for the past 10 years. One of the biggest money blunders was giving Hafner a DH huge money for multiple years, another Mark Shapiro production. Then there was Eric Wedge who could not, and still can't manage even a Connie Mack team IMO. He let one of baseball's best managers go in Charlie Manuel who told Shapiro to shove the job up his rear end. Best move Charlie ever made.

Our current dilemma can be all traced back to the ineptness of Shapiro and a farm system that hasn't produced a home grown impact player since Manny, Thome and Albert.

Another farm system topic - all we hear about on this board is the bitching regarding Jimenez for Pomeranz and Alex White. The real story is Pomeranz versus Chris Sale. Sale is [b]sailing along this year for the WS at 9-2.[/b] Just another in a string of first round busts.

Comments welcome.
Last edited by ironmike on Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:26 am

Mr Dolan..blah blah blah blah blah... hired... blah blah blah blah blah blah.. Shapiro doesn't.. blah blah blah.. 17 bad..blah blah afraid to "write" blah blah and more blah..

What a whiner..

Mr Dolan and Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti don't have a Delorean with a flux capacitor they can use to 'take a ride' & find out what the future holds.. It doesn't happen that way.. It's not for lack of spending that the Indians didn't get the biggest bang for their buck.. The latest big contracts (Westbrook, Sizemore and Hafner) were more than emasculated as each of the those players suffered career altering injuries that led to their ineffectiveness. Add in the Fausto Carmona fiasco and nearly half the Indians payroll was rendered non-productive.

Laying blame on Mr. Dolan and or Shapiro and or Chris Antonetti is "JUST FINE".. Now that the blame has been laid and the culprits identified.. How is the problem resolved?. OH.. the same problem exists, but, now it's ten minutes later.. well.. isn't that a fine use of keystrokes....
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:41 am

Hey Geronimo, told you the problem now here's the solution ...

Get a new owner go back and hire real baseball people. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same things over and over again in hopes of getting different results?

Use the SAME formula as provided by Peters and Hart. No, Shapiro let his ego get in the way.

Now go ahead and argue with results created from one ten year period to another and factor in the Indians WERE the worst franchise in ALL of baseball not only the venue but their talent level.

This isn't rocket science it starts at the top with a good business model and talented people. Then there are fanatics who believe everything they read and can't think for themselves. If the shoe fits wear it proudly.

Now what is YOUR solution. We are all waiting to hear it. Ball is in your court. Let's play. Show us all you didn't get your degreee from NitWit University.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:29 pm

ironmike wrote:
You can criticize Dolan for not hiring the right talent evaluators but you can't criticize him for not spending money.


Agree.

Real easy to understand what has happened to the Indians. Jacobs hired Hank Peters who in turn hired and groomed John Hart a baseball lifer as our GM. We enjoyed the GREATEST era in the history of Cleveland Indians baseball. Any one who argues this has their own personal agenda. Which means? They don't like the poster or they are a nit wit.

Dolan, hired Shapiro who was a football player at Princeton with a silver tongue. Therein lies the destruction of the Cleveland Indians. If one reads quotes from Shapiro in the book Dealings, he openly admits his shortfalls were talent evalution. He was portrayed as a lacking GM in the book, Money Ball. He said Youklis walked like a duck.


False.

Hate to break this to you, but Shapiro was hired way back in 1991 when Hank Peters was still the GM. Peters knew Shapiro's dad well who was a BASEBALL agent. Mark Shapiro grew up around the game of baseball. He simply didn't play it in college. Shapiro was also promoted several times under Hart/Jacobs before Hart handed the job off to Shapiro. Hart actually gave Shapiro the job of Farm Director in the early 90s before promoting him to his assistant GM and basically grooming him for his job.

It's one thing to not like Shapiro, but he is not really a Dolan guy but a Hank Peters/Jon Hart/Dick Jacobs guy. Makes you wonder who really has the personal agenda...

And I'd argue that the 90s were not the "greatest" era in Indians history. Post World War II thru the mid 50s where we went to 2 world series, winning one and setting the AL wins mark was a pretty damn good era in Indians history. Granted very few of us were around to remember that, so I have no issue saying the 90s were the greatest modern era in Tribe history (that's a fact).
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:55 pm

ironmike wrote:Hey Geronimo, told you the problem now here's the solution ...

Get a new owner go back and hire real baseball people. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same things over and over again in hopes of getting different results?

Use the SAME formula as provided by Peters and Hart. No, Shapiro let his ego get in the way.

Now go ahead and argue with results created from one ten year period to another and factor in the Indians WERE the worst franchise in ALL of baseball not only the venue but their talent level.

This isn't rocket science it starts at the top with a good business model and talented people. Then there are fanatics who believe everything they read and can't think for themselves. If the shoe fits wear it proudly.

Now what is YOUR solution. We are all waiting to hear it. Ball is in your court. Let's play. Show us all you didn't get your degreee from NitWit University.


You have to quit using my stuff..

You're embarassing yourself enough as it is... The 835 runs comments.. the support of Chris Antonetti while flailing away at Mark Shapiro and Mr Dolan.. the coffee story.... the Go Get a Big Bat.. without noting any realistic trading partner..etc.... Why don't we go with your plan.. The Indians should go out and get Ruiz Wright & McCutchen for the lineup.. and Bumgarner, Hamels and Sabathia for the rotation.. Send these teams the next Luis Valbuena in the Indians farm system along with Chisenhall.. that should do it <rolls eyes>...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: Using the "Hart/Peters" model

The big offense of the 90s is not something that can be replicated now. First off, players that bring in that kind of production don't come up nearly as often, possibly due to the crackdown on PEDs. Also, perhaps it's because baseball has evolved in how it handles pitchers, defensive alignments, etc. Offensive numbers are down across the board, and that changes how you have to plan things. So it's incredibly unlikely that you'd be able to assemble that many elite offensive players on one club unless you happen to be the New York Yankees.

Second, the financial aspect of the game doesn't allow for this anymore. Jim Thome was with the Indians major league ballclub for parts of 12 seasons. Those kind of hitters can't stay with a club like the Indians for that long anymore. The Indians were able to get away with keeping Thome around by having one of the league's highest payrolls in the late 90s, just north of $50M. Today's club could not make competitive salary commitments to guys on the free agent market the way they did for Thome, Lofton (after 97), Robbie Alomar, David Justice, etc. The Indians were able to convince Thome to stay for three years at $21M when he was in his prime and producing monster numbers. The year previously, he had a wOBA of .423. That, coincidentally, is the current wOBA of Josh Hamilton this year. Do you think Josh Hamilton would even think of signing a deal for 3 years at $7M per year after this season if he was a free agent? Heck, even if you double that offer, he would rightly spit on it.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:45 pm

What about a package to get us Soriano and dare I say Bryan LaHair from the cubbies???
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:38 pm

I'm pretty sure Soriano is due in the neighborhood of $45 million yet through 2014... don't see the Cubs eating enough of that to make him worth considering, let alone fitting within Cleveland's budget. LeHair was mediocre in May and horrible in June, he's also 3-for-35 vs. LHP this year... not even sure he's an upgrade, as his stats seem to suggest that the league has figured him out. Unless the Cubs are feeling compelled to give players away for free, no thanks.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:25 pm

Rumors flying that Carlos Lee could be dealt to the Dodgers for prospect Garrett Gould.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:49 am

The Carlos Lee deal also includes Zach Lee reportedly per mlbtraderumors.
If I'm the Astros make that deal NOW!
Could be hammering out money in this deal, but the Dodgers just handed out a huge deal to Puig so it could be the Dodgers acting / reacting aggressively. With the new wild card system teams will have to be sold that they are out of contention for the wild card before they are willing to deal.

If this is the kind of price it will take to get a Carlos Lee type hitter I'd rather see the Tribe promote from within. First the Tribe simply doesn't have that kind of prospect unless they move Francisco Lindor which I think would be foolish. It's obvious the Tribe has tremendous depth in the middle of the infield with more talent on the horizon but I can't see the Tribe blowing talented prospects like Lindor, Ronnie Rodriguez, and Dorssys Paulino.

I have heard some people mention including Zach McAllister in a deal to get a bat, which I believe we Tribe fans would end up kicking ourselves over unless it's a controllable bat into the future. McAllister appears to have 'arrived' as a ML quality pitcher. The Tribe lacks depth in SP unless you consider Jeanmar Gomez, Corey Kluber, or David Huff depth, yes these guys could log some innings but don't figure to be more than middle relief / back of the rotation types.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:08 am

@ Edible14 I disagree the Tribe can't carry a big bat for yrs bc of the price of the bat. The Tribe has locked up players with pop in to the future in signing Cabrera and Santana, but also most notably Travis Hafner he had tremendous power potential which obviously has withered away through injuries but the simple point is if he were healthy of the course of his contract the Tribe would have been a different team entirely with the potential production Hafner could have produced.
The Tribe has been forced to supplement the lack of production by adding in others here and there to help fill the hole in the lineup. It's the classic don't put all your eggs in one basket. But who knew Hafner was healthy and then the wheels came off, the Tribe got burned by doing the deal.
The simple truth is teams like the Indians may not be able to maintain the Superstar contracts others can, but they very well could keep a few at the level of Hafners contract.
I personall believe they are better suited in rolling over the roster by trading for young controllable players to supplement the lineup adding a few key vets in FA or by trade. This would put an organizational focus on aggressively drafting and signing international to provide the pieces necessary to acq. talent.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:04 am

Geronimo, I'll give you credit for one thing, you are a professional ankle biter.

That should say it all.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:29 pm

Looks like Carlos Lee won't be an option for the tribe. The Dodgers have a trade in place for him, it is up to him to decide if he wants to go. I would be very surprised if he turns it down.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:13 pm

ironmike wrote:Geronimo, I'll give you credit for one thing, you are a professional ankle biter.

That should say it all.


You type a lot of drivel and say nothing substantial.. Get better by getting better is about the depth of your postings.. No knowledge.. no insight.. nothing specific.. you should be happy anyone ever responds to what little you say..

and you now you have one less respondent...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:14 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Looks like Carlos Lee won't be an option for the tribe. The Dodgers have a trade in place for him, it is up to him to decide if he wants to go. I would be very surprised if he turns it down.


Carlos Lee to the Dodgers..the boys in blue need something.. they're 1-9 in their last ten games...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:53 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Edible14 I disagree the Tribe can't carry a big bat for yrs bc of the price of the bat. The Tribe has locked up players with pop in to the future in signing Cabrera and Santana, but also most notably Travis Hafner he had tremendous power potential which obviously has withered away through injuries but the simple point is if he were healthy of the course of his contract the Tribe would have been a different team entirely with the potential production Hafner could have produced.
The Tribe has been forced to supplement the lack of production by adding in others here and there to help fill the hole in the lineup. It's the classic don't put all your eggs in one basket. But who knew Hafner was healthy and then the wheels came off, the Tribe got burned by doing the deal.
The simple truth is teams like the Indians may not be able to maintain the Superstar contracts others can, but they very well could keep a few at the level of Hafners contract.


I would disagree with "a few". Maybe one or two guys, but with how expensive arbitration is getting, I think the Indians are always going to be committing a pretty good chunk of payroll towards those players and I don't the Indians will be in a terrible rush to anchor 1/5 of the payroll on one guy again anytime soon.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Edible14 wrote:
I would disagree with "a few". Maybe one or two guys, but with how expensive arbitration is getting, I think the Indians are always going to be committing a pretty good chunk of payroll towards those players and I don't the Indians will be in a terrible rush to anchor 1/5 of the payroll on one guy again anytime soon.


The big key to arbitration is that it is only a 1 year commitment. There are no "No Trade Clauses" and no crazy incentives. Certainly, unless a guy signs one of those long-term contracts it will come down to what happens the following year. Also, the Indians have proven they can sign 1 or 2 vets beyond the arbitration years but for them to be competitive, they need to hit on 2 - 6 draftees/international signees + filling the roster with those FA's like a Hannahan or Blake. It is just unrealistic to expect to trade for a Swisher, McCutcheon or Markakis (those guys will cost you more than they are worth and they are just not available.)
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:56 pm

The Tribe more recently has relied upon using the arbitration process, but has shown the willingness to lock up players (Santana) and extend (Cabrera). The tribe has also reached out to Choo and may (hopefully) extend Masterson too.
In a few yrs I could see the Tribe paying $12 million to a player like ACab, Santana, or Masterson. I do believe the Tribe is not afraid to have high salary players, rather they wish to work within their own confines. Let's say for example the Tribe is able to grab a guy on the last yr of his deal in trade that hits RH and makes $12 mill they would be willing to do so if the player had a healthy track record and they felt he was the difference maker, assuming also the other club was looking for salary relief.
The truth is teams like the Indians must do the small things right. And that starts with out scouting other teams. By drafting and signing international players aggressively and adding talent through creative means.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:31 am

After last night, Lou Marson is now hitting .284 on the year. He's putting up better numbers than Carlos Santana at the moment (.324 wOBA vs .301). Obviously that sample size is small (96 PA) and likely to regress. But I'm actually quite happy with the way Lou is playing so far.

Also, in 6 PAs yesterday everyone reached base at least once except for Aaron Cunningham. In a night in which Orioles pitchers nearly gave up a cycle to Lou Marson, Aaron Cunningham found a way to continue to be a void in the lineup.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:37 am

Edible14, agree on Marson, if he could hit .260 to .270 he wins the job over Santana. Excellent defensive catcher. If this would happen then Santana could get consideration for playing first base full time? Santana is pressing, get a couple of other professional hitters in the line up to take the pressure off him, Santana must make adjustments at the plate, he then could take off and become the run producer the team thinks he can be.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:25 pm

As I see it, the Indians are not an elite team for three main reasons.

1) Years of consecutive unproductive drafts in the 2000-2009 time frame. Tony has written in detail on this.

2) The financial inability to retain the few star players they did develop like Sabathia, Thome, Manny, Victor, and Cliff Lee.

3) Injuries to their best offensive player, Travis Hafner, and their top pitching prospect, Adam Miller.

There are also a couple of secondary reasons, like the failure of top prospects they traded for (Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta) to become productive major league starters.

They're not a crappy, last place team for two main reasons.

1) They made a series of brilliant trades that partially made up for the years of bad drafts:

Blake for Santana
DeRosa for Chris Perez
Ben Broussard for Choo
Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal

They also got some decent players for the stars they were forced to trade in Masterson, Brantley, and Marson. Hopefully Hagadone and Carrasco join that group. And they were smart enough to stick with Masterson as a starter instead of putting him in the bullpen.

So they're stuck in the middle now, dragged down by bad drafts, but buoyed up by some smart trades. In the last three years or so they got new people to run the draft and it appears to be working. However, most of the talent in the farm system is at the A level, so it's a race against the clock to see if enough of that talent can mature before the best players we have become too expensive to keep.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:38 pm

Personally I have always been a fan of Shelly Duncan. It is beginning to look like el Dunk Tank is starting to hit. Lopey time seems to happen. We are at July 1 - and 1.5 out - who would have thunk it?

So team - what do we do re the lineup - especially at 1b?

The games of the past week show we have hope for Shelly and Lou. If I were king - I would have Marson continue to succeed and catch - Shelly to find last September's magic - and Santana to play 1b.

Additionally - I see absolutely no reason the Crowe is not our 4th OF.

Bob
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:54 pm

I feel like we've been here before with Shelley. He gets some everyday time, looks awful, and then after being demoted to the bench for a few months his numbers see a big uptick. Then people go "hey... what about Shelley Duncan"... and the cycle begins anew. At this point, he is basically an ideal bench option. Thrives on the pinch-hitting situation, puts up decent numbers and can appear to be a power threat, and really pushes nobody to be in the starting lineup. Can we just leave him in that role?

That being said, I wonder who goes down when Hafner is back up. Damon and Shelley have probably saved their jobs with their production as of late. Jose Lopez is borderline untouchable. So it's either send back down Jason Donald (leaving Lopez as your only backup IF), or DFA Cunningham (making Shelley Duncan your only backup OF). So... how viable an option in CF is Jason Donald?
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:06 pm

Edible14 wrote:...... So... how viable an option in CF is Jason Donald?

IIRC Donald got some time in CF while in CBus so it might be worth a one week trial coming into the All Star break. Therefore cut ties to Cunningham, activate Hafner, see how it goes for a week and if there are problems, have Crowe up here after the All Star break.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:44 am

The writing is on the wall for Aaron Cunningham.. both Chris Antonetti and Mark Shapiro have been interviewed on air over the weekend and both made mention of Trevor Crowe's potential return to Cleveland. It's only a matter of time before Cunningham is DFA'd.. The home run he hit in Sunday's game not withstanding, he did strike out three times (looked hopelessly over matched), the insignificant failure to at least dive for a fly ball in the fifth inning (while Justin Masterson was throwing a no-hitter) followed by the dive on a ball that he dropped by not looking the ball into his glove later in the game. The one thing that Cunningham brought to the table was the ability to play defensively in the OF.. well, not his game Sunday.. maybe not for a lot of Sundays.. With Hafner being close to ready for a return along with the presence of Jason Donald, he's become expendable..
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:26 am

Bearcatbob wrote:
The games of the past week show we have hope for Shelly and Lou. If I were king - I would have Marson continue to succeed and catch - Shelly to find last September's magic - and Santana to play 1b.

Additionally - I see absolutely no reason the Crowe is not our 4th OF.

Bob


The way Sweet Lou is hitting I don't see how they can put him back on the bench. He's even hitting right-handed pitching. Not to mention his defense. Also, the best thing for Santana might be to let him DH and play 1B for a while, heal up his back and ribs, and concentrate on getting his batting stroke back to normal.

Manny seems to be going more and more to a platoon situation and it appears to be working. I'd go with a left/right platoon of Duncan and Damon in left, Lopez and Hannahan at 3rd, Santana and Hafner at DH. Against right-handed pitching I'd play Santana at 1st.

So the lineup against righties would be...

Choo RF
Cabrera SS
Kipnis 2b
Hafner DH
Santana 1B
Brantley CF
Hannahan 3B
Damon LF
Marson C

Against lefties we have...

Choo RF
Cabrera SS
Kipnis 2B
Santana DH
Lopez 3b
Brantley CF
Duncan LF
Kotchman 1B
Marson C

Crowe is the 4th OF and pinch runner for Hafner and defensive replacement for Duncan. Donald is the utility infielder who starts occasionally against lefites to give Droobs or Kipnis a break. Santana catches once a week to give Marson a day off.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:17 am

Prosecutor: I'm not sure how you're using Kotchman in this scenario...defensive replacement for Santana would be obvious, but, but I'm not sure about starting him against lefties.. Perhaps you mean Santana starts against lefties while Kotchman starts against righties... ?
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ACrank » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:20 pm

Regarding Willingham: if I'm not mistaken, wasn't it more a case of not wanting to sign him to a three year contract, then not being able to afford him?
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:55 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Prosecutor: I'm not sure how you're using Kotchman in this scenario...defensive replacement for Santana would be obvious, but, but I'm not sure about starting him against lefties.. Perhaps you mean Santana starts against lefties while Kotchman starts against righties... ?


Against lefties I want to sit Hafner, so I'm having Santana DH. Now we need a first baseman. Duncan is in left and Lopez is at 3rd, so we don't have any right-handed bats for 1st base. So I put Kotchman in there for defense and because everybody needs to play once in a while.

Another option would be Duncan at first and Crowe in left, but IIRC Crowe is a terrible right-handed hitter and Duncan hasn't played first all year so his glove is suspect. I have five right-handed hitters in the lineup so I'll go with Kotchman at first since I don't really have a decent alternative unless they bring up LaPorta.

Once Santana is 100% healthy and hitting well, we can go back to having him catch against right-handers, bench Marson, and put Kotchman at first.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:21 pm

The Kotchman experiment must end!
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:32 pm

I think I would be alright with seeing Duncan maybe once a week. The guy has no approach at the plate other than to swing as hard as he can at anything he can reach.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:46 pm

Bottom of the lineup in general is tough to watch.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:02 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:I think I would be alright with seeing Duncan maybe once a week. The guy has no approach at the plate other than to swing as hard as he can at anything he can reach.


I believe the saying is: ".. swing hard in case you hit it..."...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:04 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Bottom of the lineup in general is tough to watch.


Bases loaded.. nobody out.. Up comes Damon with a fielder's choice 5-2, ....Kotchman with a pop out to the catcher at the plate... and Shelly strikes out on a pitch at least a foot off the plate..

OUCH...
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:41 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Magneticnorth451 wrote:I think I would be alright with seeing Duncan maybe once a week. The guy has no approach at the plate other than to swing as hard as he can at anything he can reach.


I believe the saying is: ".. swing hard in case you hit it..."...

During the radio broadcast of the game they said that Duncan's conclusion about his struggles is that he hasn't been aggressive enough.

:eek

With self-analysis like that, it's amazing that Duncan has even accomplished what little he has. "Adjustment" is not in the idiot's vocabulary.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:32 am

Duncan is 32 years old if he hasn't been able to adopt an approach by now maybe he isn't mentally capable of developing an approach.

The Indians did well in Baltimore, was it their bats or bad pitching from the Orioles.

Ubaldo is 7-7, with support he would have a Dennis Martinez type record. Can't win many games when your team can't score. He held the Angels to two runs, a great line up.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:14 am

I suspect one reason the Indians are hitting .203 with the bases loaded is that pitchers tend to pitch around the more dangerous hitters in the middle of the order to get to guys like Damon, Kotchman, and Duncan. When these are the guys hitting with the bases loaded, you're not going to get a high average. I haven't checked the stats, but I'm willing to bet that's the case.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:20 am

Hypothetical question... who would help this team more: Cole Hamels or Shane Victorino?

Both are supposedly on the block. While Shane would play CF, letting Brantley play LF and solving a big issue for the team, I'd argue Hamels would be more important. He's having a great season this year and pitching is always the most important thing. With him at the top of the rotation, Masterson 2, Ubaldo 3, Lowe 4th... that's a rotation that could take on anyone in a playoff series.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:27 am

Edible14 wrote:Hypothetical question... who would help this team more: Cole Hamels or Shane Victorino?

Both are supposedly on the block. While Shane would play CF, letting Brantley play LF and solving a big issue for the team, I'd argue Hamels would be more important. He's having a great season this year and pitching is always the most important thing. With him at the top of the rotation, Masterson 2, Ubaldo 3, Lowe 4th... that's a rotation that could take on anyone in a playoff series.


My vote would be Victorino...basing it on the difference between SV and our current LF mess is much greater than the difference between CH and ZM/JG.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:44 am

Edible14 wrote:Hypothetical question... who would help this team more: Cole Hamels or Shane Victorino?

Both are supposedly on the block. While Shane would play CF, letting Brantley play LF and solving a big issue for the team, I'd argue Hamels would be more important. He's having a great season this year and pitching is always the most important thing. With him at the top of the rotation, Masterson 2, Ubaldo 3, Lowe 4th... that's a rotation that could take on anyone in a playoff series.


Pitching pitching pitching.. always tend toward improving the pitching.. Hamels would be the ace, front of the rotation stud that can win the game all by himself.. and keep the Indians in virtually every game they play.. Victorino, while a good player, can't throw 94 mph fastballs on the black followed by 79 mph change ups to dangerous RH hitters..
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:50 am

Prosecutor wrote: Damon, Kotchman, and Duncan. When these are the guys hitting with the bases loaded, you're not going to get a high average. I haven't checked the stats, but I'm willing to bet that's the case.


A few select bases loaded stats: -

Brantley - .375 (3-for-8)
Kipnis - .375 (3-for-8)
Santana - .333 (2-for-6)
Cabrera - .000 (0-for-6)
Hannahan - .333 (1-for-3)
Kotchman - .000 (0-for-8)
Damon - .200 (1-for-5)
Duncan - .000 (0-for-4)
Hafner - .000 (0-for-5)


For the most part, you're right..... However, AC and Pronk have both shit the bed with the bags full too.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:43 pm

FWIW - Hafner is not playing for Columbus tonight.
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Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:59 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:FWIW - Hafner is not playing for Columbus tonight.


Don't think he was scheduled to.

Sounds like they're gonna activate him tomorrow, but wanted to give him another off day first.

Maybe they're also looking to make more of an extended roster move as well - instead of just sending Donald back down. Might want to keep Donald around to give them a chance to rest AC and Kipnis more often.
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