Indians Prospect Insider - Covering the Cleveland Indians from the Minors to the Big Leagues

Fixing the Lineup...

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:54 am

I'm not in favor of giving up "multiple top level prospects" for three months of Carlos Quentin and a year-and-a-half of Garza. I'm not sure we even have multiple top level prospects. We might have one or two.

Garza has a 4.07 ERA in the NL this year. That's not blowing me away.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:01 am

Prosecutor wrote:I'm not in favor of giving up "multiple top level prospects" for three months of Carlos Quentin and a year-and-a-half of Garza. I'm not sure we even have multiple top level prospects. We might have one or two.


And most of those "top level prospects" cannot be traded until mid-August so we either:

1. punt on Santana while he still has value. I am actually beginning to believe that he won't come around as long as he's behind the plate (the complexities of learning the catching craft at the ML level prevents him from simply concentrating on hitting).
2. kick the tires on Ben Sheets who I hear is working out and ready to try a comeback
3. set your targets on 2-3 lesser prospects (i.e. Wells and/or Marlon Byrd)
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:02 am

Garza's main issue this year is that he's giving up the long ball at the highest rate of his career. His K/9 and BB/9 are still very good, plus his secondary numbers are in line with his career, so there is an extremely valuable pitcher still in there and the Cubs know it. He's a number 3 starter, maybe a 2 if you want to stretch it, so he will not come cheap to any suitor.

They were discussing a Garza trade on WEEI (Boston) and this proposal came about: Youkilis and Beckett for Garza.

I was thinking... if I were the Cubs I'd hang up the phone and block their number, but the dolts on the radio said that was too much for Garza. What world are they living in!? Youk can't hit/field/stay healthy and Beckett is injury prone and less effective than Garza, and he's way too costly.

Anyway, the Cubs will look to restock their farm system with young talent, and that makes the Indians and Cubs not ideal for each other.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:42 pm

daingean wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I'm not in favor of giving up "multiple top level prospects" for three months of Carlos Quentin and a year-and-a-half of Garza. I'm not sure we even have multiple top level prospects. We might have one or two.


And most of those "top level prospects" cannot be traded until mid-August so we either:

1. punt on Santana while he still has value. I am actually beginning to believe that he won't come around as long as he's behind the plate (the complexities of learning the catching craft at the ML level prevents him from simply concentrating on hitting).
2. kick the tires on Ben Sheets who I hear is working out and ready to try a comeback
3. set your targets on 2-3 lesser prospects (i.e. Wells and/or Marlon Byrd)


We "couldn't" trade Pomeranz til mid-August last year either though. Still can deal guys as PTBNL. That said, don't think we'll be dealing anyone like that this summer (though we shall see).

Coudln't disagree more on Santana. He's got the skills to be a great hitter still. Not to mention you just gave him a very reasonable extension. You will kill any fan base you have built up lately if you deal him. In my eyes he's the closest thing you have to an untouchable at the ML level.

I actually like the idea of Sheets though who knows how healthy or effective he could be. Wonder if he'll be a bullpen arm or a starter too with missing so much time.

I do think you have to set your sights on lesser players too. Don't see any big time deal going down.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:52 pm

ironmike wrote:Garza, along with adding either Quentin or Soriano, plus letting LaPorta take the place of Duncan would satisfy me.


So all it would take to satisfy you is getting arguably the most valuable pitcher on the market (Garza) plus adding one of the hottest bats that may be on the market (Quentin)??? hmm....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:59 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Garza's main issue this year is that he's giving up the long ball at the highest rate of his career. His K/9 and BB/9 are still very good, plus his secondary numbers are in line with his career, so there is an extremely valuable pitcher still in there and the Cubs know it. He's a number 3 starter, maybe a 2 if you want to stretch it, so he will not come cheap to any suitor.

They were discussing a Garza trade on WEEI (Boston) and this proposal came about: Youkilis and Beckett for Garza.

I was thinking... if I were the Cubs I'd hang up the phone and block their number, but the dolts on the radio said that was too much for Garza. What world are they living in!? Youk can't hit/field/stay healthy and Beckett is injury prone and less effective than Garza, and he's way too costly.

Anyway, the Cubs will look to restock their farm system with young talent, and that makes the Indians and Cubs not ideal for each other.


I'd say Garza is easily a solid #2. Was one of the better pitchers in all of baseball last year and still putting up some solid peripherals this year despite the higher ERA (though wouldn't call a 4.07 ERA high). Would instantly be the Indians #1.

I do agree that the Tribe and Cubs con't seem like a good fit at least in regards to Garza due to lack of high end specs. Think we could hook up again on Soriano like we did with Fukudome last year...though the Cubs would have to eat a ton of salary. Not sure the Indians will bite too with that much time left on the deal.


ha, and yeah, that trade offer with the Red Sox is laughable. Would work in a video game maybe though I guess.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:29 pm

Ya Hermie, for years I've seen 4 plus decades of lousy teams and then came the team of the 90's and All-Stars at EVERY position. You win with top talent at the MLB, Garza, Soriano and Quentin would be even better. If prospects are blocked like Giles, Casey and others were you trade them, for the team and the players benefit.

It's all about WINNING at Progressive Field. We had the formula, only to see Shapiro and Wedge erode it.

You never did answer my question ... what is our record when we score less than 4 runs per game? And you are dam right I'm trying to prove a point.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:20 am

I'm seeing more and more about the Indians being in talks with the Red Sox for Kevin Youkilis.

That's all well and good, and if he costs the Indians a lesser prospect and relatively little cash then even better, but I'm having a hard time seeing where he fits in with the team as it's currently constructed. He could displace Kotch Rocket at 1st, but his offensive output isn't much better than Kotchman's right now, and his defense is in serious decline (3rd/1st) so there's literally nothing gained in that move.

The Indians have a good thing going with Hanahan and Chisenhall at 3rd, plus have a fabled DH, Travis Hafner, who might return "early next month," so roster space for Youk is relatively tight. I could see them acquiring Youkilis if Hafner were out "indefinitely," but that isn't the case.


One other thing to consider, according to the talking heads at WEEI, Youkilis is kind've a clubhouse cancer. Do the Indians need a disruptive malcontent in the clubhouse?
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:15 pm

While it's interesting to hear discussions regarding the Indians 'interest" in Kevin Youkilis, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe offered a left field curve to the equation when he stated:

..The Indians are very much involved in talks and talks with the Diamondbacks don’t appear to be dead, Cafardo reports...


Could the Indians and Diamond Backs actually be speaking of one or two players?. The DBax are currently four games out of the Wild Card in the National League. So, this kind of discussion could be a bit premature (4 weeks?), however, the Dbax do have a couple of interesting players that could "help" the Indians:

A long shot could be Joe Saunders.. who who was signed as a FA by the DBax for the 2012 season at $ 6 MM. This seems unlikely as the Indians appetite for one and done (actually a half and done) contracts haven't been their forte.. Saunders would be a free agent after this season. The dollar value wouldn't be much of an obstacle.. the cost in prospect(s) could be.

OR!!!

...could the Indians be looking to make up for NOT signing a RH bat during the Hot Stove Season and will be saying Hello Jason Kubel?????????? Kubel signed a $ 16 MM guaranteed contract with a club option for 2014 with the DBax. His contract details are as follows: 2012: $7.5M, 2013: $7.5M, 2014: $7.5M option w/$1M buyout. If there is a choice between Kubel and Youk.. who would you prefer?...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:54 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:While it's interesting to hear discussions regarding the Indians 'interest" in Kevin Youkilis, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe offered a left field curve to the equation when he stated:

..The Indians are very much involved in talks and talks with the Diamondbacks don’t appear to be dead, Cafardo reports...


Could the Indians and Diamond Backs actually be speaking of one or two players?. The DBax are currently four games out of the Wild Card in the National League. So, this kind of discussion could be a bit premature (4 weeks?), however, the Dbax do have a couple of interesting players that could "help" the Indians:

A long shot could be Joe Saunders.. who who was signed as a FA by the DBax for the 2012 season at $ 6 MM. This seems unlikely as the Indians appetite for one and done (actually a half and done) contracts haven't been their forte.. Saunders would be a free agent after this season. The dollar value wouldn't be much of an obstacle.. the cost in prospect(s) could be.

OR!!!

...could the Indians be looking to make up for NOT signing a RH bat during the Hot Stove Season and will be saying Hello Jason Kubel?????????? Kubel signed a $ 16 MM guaranteed contract with a club option for 2014 with the DBax. His contract details are as follows: 2012: $7.5M, 2013: $7.5M, 2014: $7.5M option w/$1M buyout. If there is a choice between Kubel and Youk.. who would you prefer?...


I'm pretty sure Cafardo was meaning talks between the Sox and D'Backs don't appear to be dead..... nothing to do with the Tribe talking to Arizona.
dazindiansfanuk
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 pm

I know it doesnt belong in this thread - but really dont know where to put it but has anyone noticed the fantastic season Matt McBride is having? Wonder what we would be saying about him now if he was still with the tribe.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... brid001mat
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I know it doesnt belong in this thread - but really dont know where to put it but has anyone noticed the fantastic season Matt McBride is having? Wonder what we would be saying about him now if he was still with the tribe.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... brid001mat


At least someone from that trade that went to the Rockies is having a good year.. No one that throws the ball for a living is..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:16 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I know it doesnt belong in this thread - but really dont know where to put it but has anyone noticed the fantastic season Matt McBride is having? Wonder what we would be saying about him now if he was still with the tribe.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... brid001mat



Not much I hope.

You realize LaPorta is putting up better numbers than McBride? And he IS in our system.
User avatar
JP_Frost
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:36 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I know it doesnt belong in this thread - but really dont know where to put it but has anyone noticed the fantastic season Matt McBride is having? Wonder what we would be saying about him now if he was still with the tribe.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... brid001mat

A 27-year-old putting up good offense in Colorado Springs in the PCL, who still doesn't draw any walks and has negative value anywhere you play him defensively? I don't much care, since he wouldn't be putting up those numbers if he was still with the Tribe.
User avatar
Pork Chop Pough
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:36 am

I have no idea why they are discussing a deal for Youk. The guy is hitting .191 on the road, .257 at Fenway. He's not particularly good against left-handed pitching; .243/.761. The only place he could play would be to platoon with Kotchman at first base, but against lefties I'd rather have Marson catch and Santana play first.

Youkalis could DH, but Hafner is due back shortly. Can we afford to use two spots on the 25-man roster for guys who exclusively DH?
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:01 am

The reason "Youkilis" is being discussed is because the Red Sox want to be rid of him thereby allowing their shiny new toy, Will Middlebrooks, unfettered playing time at the hot corner in Boston. All the discussion is being generated from the Red Sox.. Not a single reference or quote has been made by anyone in the Cleveland heirarchy regarding this neanderthal...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:13 am

Even with regression coming for Middlebrooks, and believe me it'll be coming (that BB and K% is absolutely frightening), he's still better a better option than Youkilis is at the moment.

Boston would be wise to move him, even if it means paying the majority of his salary this year and accepting a lesser prospect. I know the Indians don't ever comment on rumors, but if the rumors are out there, there has to be at least a little bit of truth to them.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:14 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Boston would be wise to move him, even if it means paying the majority of his salary this year and accepting a lesser prospect. I know the Indians don't ever comment on rumors, but if the rumors are out there, there has to be at least a little bit of truth to them.


I don't think that's true, especially given the nature of rumors with the Red Sox and Yankees. It seems every year we end up discussing that the garbage of those two teams are going to be dealt for something decent, and it almost never happens (I say almost, because the Yankees did find someone to take AJ Burnett off of their hands). I would not be surprised to learn that these rumors were being generated solely out of Boston.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:15 pm

I think the Indians have at least kicked the tires on Youkilis.

The level of pursuit by the Tribe is probably being overblown by Boston, but there's something there... Or something was there.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:26 am

The team needs a backup short stop. That means Donald has to come back - especially as we get into the "dog days".

Crowe needs to be the 4th OF. He is a switch hitter and cannot be worse than what we have.

McAllister needs to replace Gomez. They can switch going forward as their success or lack thereof shows.

A quality for quality trade needs to be made for RH bat. Is there a RH Chisenhall out there with a team that needs a high upside lefty?

Hagadone needs to pitch more frequently - either here or in Columbus.

Multiple changes are needed.

Bob
Bearcatbob
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:10 am

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:46 am

Bearcatbob wrote:The team needs a backup short stop. That means Donald has to come back - especially as we get into the "dog days".

Crowe needs to be the 4th OF. He is a switch hitter and cannot be worse than what we have.

McAllister needs to replace Gomez. They can switch going forward as their success or lack thereof shows.

A quality for quality trade needs to be made for RH bat. Is there a RH Chisenhall out there with a team that needs a high upside lefty?

Hagadone needs to pitch more frequently - either here or in Columbus.

Multiple changes are needed.

Bob


Agree with all this. Hags needs to go down and get back on track - he's getting hammered. Manny says he has to keep trusting Sipp based on the last three years. I'd say Sipp needs to pitch more. If there's still no improvement in the next couple of weeks, then try somebody else.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:55 am

Prosecutor wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:The team needs a backup short stop. That means Donald has to come back - especially as we get into the "dog days".

Crowe needs to be the 4th OF. He is a switch hitter and cannot be worse than what we have.

McAllister needs to replace Gomez. They can switch going forward as their success or lack thereof shows.

A quality for quality trade needs to be made for RH bat. Is there a RH Chisenhall out there with a team that needs a high upside lefty?

Hagadone needs to pitch more frequently - either here or in Columbus.

Multiple changes are needed.

Bob


Agree with all this. Hags needs to go down and get back on track - he's getting hammered. Manny says he has to keep trusting Sipp based on the last three years. I'd say Sipp needs to pitch more. If there's still no improvement in the next couple of weeks, then try somebody else.


This team really needs 2 lefties in the BP vs. the Yankees (especially in the Bronx).
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 pm

...A quality for quality trade needs to be made for RH bat. Is there a RH Chisenhall out there with a team that needs a high upside lefty?...


While the team the Indians could be making a trade with may need a lefty.. it's not really imperative that the Indians trade piece(s) is/are limited to Lonnie Chisenhall, but, you are correct about "quality for quality"..

There are just so many teams that are still in the race for the wildcard or their division... As of June 25th, there are probably only four teams in the AL that could be/should be considered dead or out of the running for WC's or division championships (KC, Minnesota, Oakland and Seattle). In the NL, it's no better as there are five teams that are hopelessly out of the running: Colorado, San Diego, Chicago Houston and Miami.. (phillie is still in the running.. but just barely)...

So 9 teams that could be 'early' sellers.. of these nine..Seattle, San Diego and Miami seem to be the most likely targets for the Indians:

-Seattle: Franklin Gutierrez or Casper Wells.. Both are RH batters.. play the OF and have cannon's for arms..have power and are clearly upgrades over anyone the Indians currently have right now. Gut may be available for a low A prospect with upside for no other reason than his contract situation is a small burden on the M's (5 MM 2012, 7 MM 2013, Club Option 7.5 MM 2014 w/ 0.5 MM buy out).

San Diego: Carlos Quentin represents a play that will no doubt becoming the Hot Bid War story for anyone needing a RH bat that can play the OF. Quentin is a player who doesn't want to leave SD.. At best, this would be a two month rental.. Three if a deal can be worked out before July 4th. Other players on the Padres (Jesus Guzman.. not better than Matt LaPorta, Chase Headley.. SD wants to keep him.. ) aren't really options..

Miami Marlins: Have no one that would be available and of interest.. Gabby Sanchez has been dreadful.. the entire Marlins squad is filled with under achieving whiners.. Having a nutjob like Ozzie leading them.. seems appropriate...

So.. how about instead of the triumphant return of Manny Ramirez.. the sights are set a bit closer to reality and the Indians welcome back Franklin Gutierrez?...

thoughts?..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:51 pm

I would think that signing Marlon Byrd would be a better RH option that both Cunningham and Duncan. The veteran OF, recently cut by the BoSox, can play all OF positions. had a decent year last year. And he hits RH.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 pm

Why not Gaby Sanchez? He seems like a good buy low candidate.
User avatar
JP_Frost
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:28 pm

daingean wrote:I would think that signing Marlon Byrd would be a better RH option that both Cunningham and Duncan. The veteran OF, recently cut by the BoSox, can play all OF positions. had a decent year last year. And he hits RH.


I'd go with Byrd.. the only thing he was hitting this year was LHP's... Additionally, Byrd has a pretty impressive history against the Tigers, the team that appears to be making it's move in the AL Central..

Edit: Marlon Byrd was suspended 50 games for testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug. He tested positive for Tamoxifen. Byrd was recently released by the Red Sox, so he will begin serving the suspension once he signs with a new organization. The 34-year-old outfielder is hitting just .210/.243/.245 with one homer and a .488 OPS in 153 plate appearances this season, so the substance didn't exactly "enhance" his performance.

Maybe this should be rethought?.. oops
Last edited by GeronimoSon on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:34 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Why not Gaby Sanchez? He seems like a good buy low candidate.


Gaby Sanchez is hitting a buck ninety five.. two forty against LHP's. He's having an awful year...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:02 pm

Yes he is. Which is why he's a buy low bat. If he were hitting .330 he wouldn't be available.

His body of work is very solid and much better than anything our current 1st basemen have put up.
User avatar
JP_Frost
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:19 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Yes he is. Which is why he's a buy low bat. If he were hitting .330 he wouldn't be available.

His body of work is very solid and much better than anything our current 1st basemen have put up.


Gabby's a hitter....Not a power hitter like you would prefer as a 1B but he can hit. My guess is that Ozzie has that team's clubhouse in turmoil and it is playing havoc with their guys.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 pm

well definitely no Marlon Byrd - just got popped for PEDs - 50 game suspension...
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:02 pm

daingean wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Yes he is. Which is why he's a buy low bat. If he were hitting .330 he wouldn't be available.

His body of work is very solid and much better than anything our current 1st basemen have put up.


Gabby's a hitter....Not a power hitter like you would prefer as a 1B but he can hit. My guess is that Ozzie has that team's clubhouse in turmoil and it is playing havoc with their guys.


I agree with JP on him possibly being a buy-low guy. He's struggling but as said, has been a solid hitter in the past. Hits RH and would give you an option at 1B beyond this year. I think getting out of Miami could help. Never been a power hitter but a smaller park could help him be a 20-25 HR guy I think (though hit well in at home before).
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Yes he is. Which is why he's a buy low bat. If he were hitting .330 he wouldn't be available.

His body of work is very solid and much better than anything our current 1st basemen have put up.


Gabby's a hitter....Not a power hitter like you would prefer as a 1B but he can hit. My guess is that Ozzie has that team's clubhouse in turmoil and it is playing havoc with their guys.


I agree with JP on him possibly being a buy-low guy. He's struggling but as said, has been a solid hitter in the past. Hits RH and would give you an option at 1B beyond this year. I think getting out of Miami could help. Never been a power hitter but a smaller park could help him be a 20-25 HR guy I think (though hit well in at home before).


New park + Ozzie....he may need to break out of prison

edit: because I can't spell "New park"
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby martyinnewyork » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:06 pm

As Santana sinks towards the Mendoza line, must he stay in the 4-hole?
Maybe he needs to be a Clipper for a bit.... he's seemingly 1-for-June....
martyinnewyork
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:54 am

Per Paul Hoynes, With the Indians reeling on this 10-day, 10-game trip, Antonetti said he feels they can stay competitive with the current roster.

"We can't stay competitive playing the way we've played [recently], but I still think we have a lot of talent on the roster, enough to stay competitive in the division," he said. "But we need to play better than we've played."

Regarding position players at Class AAA Columbus who could help the Tribe, Antonetti mentioned Matt LaPorta, Russ Canzler, Jason Donald and Trevor Crowe.

With as poorly as our role players have performed for the entire year, would find creative ways to get all four of these players in Cleveland now and make the deal for a RH impact bat we can control for three years. Could a Perez or Choo or Chisenhall be part of a package for a cornerstone player, why not?

As I look at this team, there is not ONE position player who could have started on our teams of the 90's. Sad, but true.

I gotta tell this quick story again because it reveals the problem of the Cleveland Indians. In October, standing in line at the local McDonalds as I was ordering a cup of coffee, I looked to the other register to my immediate right. Standing in line paying was a short guy in blue jeans, burgundy sweater and ratty running shoes with his head slightly bowed like he did not want to me noticed.

It clicked who he was ... Paul Dolan, owner of the Cleveland Indians. I told my friend Matt, that is Paul Dolan. He didn't believe me so he went up to him politely and asked. Dolan confirmed his identity. We introduced ourselves and chatted for about 3 minutes. As I told Tony Lastoria in an email, mentioned to Mr. Dolan we needed to add three (3) professional hitters this off-season to be really be a force. He countered, disagreed, and said we are going to get ONE big bat. This was in October. Don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is if you don't score runs in the A.L. you can't compete. And, I tip my hat to Manny Acta for trying to enforce the fundamentals to our players regarding cutting dwon on K's and increasing their walks, run the bases well and move runners when you need too. But there is only so much he can do with a lack of offensive pieces needed to win.

At the moment, I'm a fan with diminishing interest in the Cleveland Indians. Truthfully, they are fooling the fans. They are trying to sell the sizzle without the steak. It's a scam. Having went through lousy teams starting in 1962 up to the 90's and attending hundreds of games with season tickets it isn't hard to see why this team is just not good enough. That is the real reason fans don't go to the games. They know, because they have experienced what a great team really is. If the "magic" were still there from the Jacobs, Peters and Hart era the fans would still find ways to afford and attend the games. They'd find the dollars from their budgets to attend the games. Dolan, Shapiro and Wedge destroyed it, I'll debate this any time, any place with any one.

It all starts at the top and, Shapiro is a major accomplice in the decline of one of the best teams in baseball. He has a silver tongue because he needs one to cover up his lack of pure baseball talent evaluation skills. How he was depicted in Money Ball is the truth.

Mr. Jacobs did his job, he delivered results. The Dolan's have not. They deserve to have their investment eroded. It has nothing to do with the economy, it all starts with the ability of the organization to find and develop talent, keep good palyers. Lousy, lousy results since Shapiro took over.

This market has the ability to draw 2.5 million fans every year. It will again ... not any time soon. Keep waiting for a reporter to write the real story, Terry Pluto came close in his book "Dealings". Wonder who has the balls to do it?

Regarding Chris Antonetti, I give him credit for being creative and aggressive. He's going to need to continue being that way in order to turn over this position player roster which at the moment is a nightmare. And how they are going to fix the farm system so we can produce postion players soon is beyond me.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:53 am

Wow.. a coffee story at McDonalds.. a name drop..and the same message.. go get someone who bats from the right side that can impact the offense.. If it costs Chris Perez, Shin-soo Choo and or Lonnie Chisenhall.. then so be it.. Creating three holes to fill one.. makes about as much sense as this coffee story...smh...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:35 pm

ironmike wrote:As I look at this team, there is not ONE position player who could have started on our teams of the 90's. Sad, but true.

I gotta tell this quick story again because it reveals the problem of the Cleveland Indians. In October, standing in line at the local McDonalds as I was ordering a cup of coffee, I looked to the other register to my immediate right. Standing in line paying was a short guy in blue jeans, burgundy sweater and ratty running shoes with his head slightly bowed like he did not want to me noticed.

It clicked who he was ... Paul Dolan, owner of the Cleveland Indians.


So you'd take Tony Fernandez over Jason Kipnis at 2B? Or want Marquis Grissom playing CF? As bad as Santana has been, he's been better than Alomar as well. Would love to see an offense like the 90s but baseball has changed since then.

And Paul Dolan is the Chairman/CEO of the Indians; Larry Dolan is still the owner of the Indians. So if "Paul" told you he was the Indians owner, he was probably a guy just having some fun with you.

Also, if you can only compete in the AL if you score runs, how do you explain the Rays who score less per game than the Indians? Angels are also scoring less than the Tribe (and would be in the playoffs if the season ended today). O's have scored 1 more run than us all year and would also be in the playoffs if the season ended today. Even if the Tribe scored 5.5 runs per game like you want, they'd still be losing as they are giving up 6+ runs way too often. The pitching is killing this team as much if not more than the offense. If scoring runs was the key to winning in the AL the Red Sox would be running away with the AL East instead of being in 4th place. Tribe's problems are much greater than just a lackluster offense (which does need help). Could add Babe Ruth to this lineup and we'd still struggle with the current pitching staff. Tribe has the 3rd WORST pitching staff in all of baseball ahead of only the Twins and Rockies. There is no way the Indians make the playoffs unless they turn the pitching around.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:38 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:As Santana sinks towards the Mendoza line, must he stay in the 4-hole?
Maybe he needs to be a Clipper for a bit.... he's seemingly 1-for-June....


Can't send him to Columbus IMO as he's still one of your better hitters even with the struggles. Something does need to be done whether you move him up in the lineup to get him some protection or down to take the pressure off. He needs to get out of this funk. He's still drawing walks but not doing much else since returning from the DL.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:42 pm

Geronimo, real story. You AGAIN missed the message, doesn't say much for your IQ.

The three mentioned are only candiates, never did I say trade them all at one time for one impact player. You are always quick to get an edge, you never will with me. Try your shennigans elsewhere. As much baseball as you watch you still can't connect the dots. Sooner or later reality must take over the situation, so I guess for YOU it is always later.

You remind me of the old Indian in the movie Josie Wales, speak often but always delirious and confused.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:17 pm

I'd match my IQ against yours without much difficulty...you'd lose...

...Could a Perez or Choo or Chisenhall be part of a package for a cornerstone player, why not?..


Package: Grouping together of one or more items.. Easily could mean all three.. If you didn't want to 'package' all three, then you would be so inclined to state.. one or two of.. but not all three..

Way to keep it entertaining, sparky...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby indians1 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:04 pm

The fact of the matter is that we really don't have many options. I don't think we can trade chisenhall because we don't have any other options at 3B.

Jack hannahan is a utility player. He is not a guy that should be a regular 3B. He is not a core player like some on this baord state. The problem with this team is that we have too many average-below average players= shelly duncun, kotchman, jose lopez, choo, marson, and right now carlos santana.

The guy is in his 2nd season of hitting below .230 and is hitting with no power. At least last year he hit 27 HR's. This year, he is horrible. The indians need to start producing players that play consistent. There should be big concerns of whether carlos santana will reach his potential- (would go along the lines of other indians players that failed as well)

peralta, carmona, choo, hafner(because of injury), grady- relied on his athletic ability and truly never made the next step in his game. Who knows. Maybe the indians just develop dumb players. How many times does carlos santana overswing with 2 strikes. Something grady always did as well.
indians1
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:17 pm

Antonetti was questioned by the New York media about the progress in bringing back BOB (formerly FAUSTO).. While he didn't give any specific date or time frame, his comments appeared to indicate that BOB may be able to obtain his visa in short order and would become available pretty quickly. We shall see... Getting BOB back, Hafner back and Grady back.. would be quite a shot in the arm for this struggling/scuffling club...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:47 pm

Getting Grady and Hafner and Hernandez back would help tremendously if each was the player from 2007 or so. I expect little from Hafner and Hernandez and less from Sizemore.
We need two solid right-handed bats but have no faith that we will get even one. Santana is currently our worst hitter and needs to sit till he gets his head out of his butt. We have holes in left and at first. Jose freaking Lopez is our clean-up hitter. Our best hope may be Trevor Crowe.
This season is getting downright ugly...
martyinnewyork
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby daingean » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:43 pm

I am thinking that if Santana is going to be a core player, it may be best to move him from behind the plate. I think he's overwhelmed with the nuances in calling games and it is affecting him at the plate. Starting this fall, teach him how to play the OF. It would be a shame to waste his arm at 1B.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:21 pm

If Vinnie Rottino is the answer, WTF is the question?
martyinnewyork
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:05 am

martyinnewyork wrote:If Vinnie Rottino is the answer, WTF is the question?


Q: How to run a ballclub into the ground.
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby ironmike » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:12 am

Geronimo, what kind of cake do you eat every day?
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:19 am

daingean wrote:I am thinking that if Santana is going to be a core player, it may be best to move him from behind the plate. I think he's overwhelmed with the nuances in calling games and it is affecting him at the plate. Starting this fall, teach him how to play the OF. It would be a shame to waste his arm at 1B.


Santana has been getting beat up behind the plate and actually had to come out of yesterday's game when his back tightened up. At the same time they are working on his hitting mechanics. I agree that they should move him to first base for the next couple of weeks at least. Let him concentrate on hitting and give him a break from the wear and tear of catching. If he doesn't get back to being productive at the plate the Tribe has no chance because all their key players have to be producing simultaneously since they have no bench.

Marson is fresh and has been hitting well in June. He's also an upgrade defensively.

I'd bench Kotchman, put Santana at first, and bring up either Crowe, Goedert, or Neal to play left field.

Oh, and the reason the Tribe is a .500 team so far is that they were simply unable to afford to keep CC and Cliff Lee, and they couldn't afford Josh Willingham, Carlos Beltran, or Carlos Lee. It's all about the money. They end up signing bargain basement types like Kotchman and Johnny Damon and Derek Lowe and Chad Durbin. If absolutely everything goes right they have a shot. But that never happens, and not this year either, with injuries to Carrasco, Sizemore, and Hafner, the Carmona situation, and a bad year so far from Santana.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:22 am

daingean wrote:I am thinking that if Santana is going to be a core player, it may be best to move him from behind the plate. I think he's overwhelmed with the nuances in calling games and it is affecting him at the plate. Starting this fall, teach him how to play the OF. It would be a shame to waste his arm at 1B.


Am I the only person who thinks Santana is simply still being effected by the fact that he suffered a concussion earlier this month?

Also that he's in a lineup that doesn't have Travis Hafner around him? Michael Brantley batting 5th?

I dont buy that it's as simple as it's too much for him to be a catcher as well as a productive hitter.
GoTribe028
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:23 am

I'm not terribly worried about Santana. He's a .250 hitter with a high OBP and power when he's right. It's not sexy, and before the rise of sabremetrics he would have been terribly undervalued. He's on a cold streak, but everyone goes through them. It sort of exacerbates the problem with him when you see his batting average when he's not doing as well (it's close to the mendoza line!), but he's not that far off from the player he's supposed to be. His average and OBP are actually pretty close to his numbers from last year that made him a 3+ WAR player. The bigger problem is not his batting average, it's his slugging.

But, let's at least take a moment to recognize that he's made some big steps forward defensively. Last year it was clear he was the lesser defensive catcher between him and Marson, now it's not so clear. Santana has been marvelous at throwing guys out and has made some very nice defensive plays. And, over at 1B, he's clearly far better than where he started last year. When he first started getting time out there last year, his footwork was awful. Now, he's actually really smooth there and I don't think he's too far from average.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Fixing the Lineup...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:10 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo, what kind of cake do you eat every day?


pffft.....
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Beyond The Minors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron