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Ubaldo is a mess

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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:39 pm

I'm all for patience. In my mind, he's got until the end of the season to pick it up. If he doesn't by then, then you have 2.5 years worth of negative data on him. My point is that $6M isn't money well spent on what would essentially be a reclamation project.

Prosecutor wrote:No way picking up Hafner's option is a good idea, or even a consideration. They may buy him out and try to re-sign him at a much lower cost, but I can't see them picking up the option.

They got burned by giving Grady $5 million this year and I don't see them repeating that mistake again. The only way it could have happened is if Hafner made it through the entire season uninjured and had a productive season.


The point was not that picking up Hafner's option was a good idea (and I agree that signing him to a lower deal is the way to go), but that it would be preferable to bringing back a below replacement level pitcher for nearly $6M when the team has limited resources anyway.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:03 am

ironmike wrote:He has lost his keys in his delivery that allow him to locate consistently. Fanatical fans expect players to be perfect, do perfect 10's for a long period of time. And, my guess is you're pissed they traded prospects because it seems you value you them more than wins for the ML team which is wrong. IMO you don't see the big picture. These so called prospects are assets and very few of them ever pan out, very few. They are way over hyped because they are graded for the most part against inferior competition and astute projections are necessary, it is a guessing game at best because one can't measure heart, guts or determination. Then the player has to be given a fair chance to play on a regular basis, not like what is being done to Jason Donald. The Jimenez situation requires looking at the big picture. Prospects are just one part of building a winning baseball team, not the main ingredient.

All we hear about is velocity regarding Jimenez. It used to be 98 MPH now only 92-94 MPH, so what? As long as his pitches move and he can keep the ball down in the zone that is what counts. Hell, throwing as hard as he does now is still considered a power arm? Right? He has plenty of velocity on his pitches and movement to be a big winner again.

Control, getting ahead in the count is the key for Jimenez. He's not missing by much, we are talking inches here, not feet...


Mike, before you go off on how I feel or me being upset about losing prospects, as a refresher, maybe you out to read my piece after the trade last year:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/b ... trade-5589

Bottom line, I was for the deal and fine with dealing prospects. The problem right now is it looks like they blew those assets on Jimenez when they could have used them for something else. You don't make such a trade for a pitcher that needs to find his control....and take 20 some games to do it. The guy should be pitching well from DAY ONE. Not be a mechanical nightmare.

I've talked to enough pitching coaches to know that simply "correcting" his delivery is way more easily said then done. If so, then no one would have delivery issues. I've talked to enough scouts to know that his problems are mostly tied to his mechanics but there are other issues as well which are covered up by the focus on his mechanics. Bottom line is he has and always will have mechanical flaws. His velocity used to cover those flaws up as hitters had less time to think and they swung at a lot of the borderline pitches, but that 3-5 MPH drop in velocity is significant in that that it offers hitters a chance to see his stuff better. Sure, if you "pitch" velocity means nothing as if you hit your spots and locate you can throw at 85 MPH and have success. But Ubaldo is not a pitcher, he is a "thrower". Always has been, always will be. So he needs to rely on that velocity to make him more effective....and when you combine the drop in velo with his mechanical and mental flaws, you get the pitcher he has been the last two years.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:20 pm

Edible14 wrote:I'm all for patience. In my mind, he's got until the end of the season to pick it up. If he doesn't by then, then you have 2.5 years worth of negative data on him. My point is that $6M isn't money well spent on what would essentially be a reclamation project.

Prosecutor wrote:No way picking up Hafner's option is a good idea, or even a consideration. They may buy him out and try to re-sign him at a much lower cost, but I can't see them picking up the option.

They got burned by giving Grady $5 million this year and I don't see them repeating that mistake again. The only way it could have happened is if Hafner made it through the entire season uninjured and had a productive season.


The point was not that picking up Hafner's option was a good idea (and I agree that signing him to a lower deal is the way to go), but that it would be preferable to bringing back a below replacement level pitcher for nearly $6M when the team has limited resources anyway.


Masterson may make more than Ubaldo next year...and has been almost as bad (5.56 ERA in 11 starts since opening day, opponents hitting over 20 pts higher off him than Ubaldo in that stretch). Should we not bring him back either? Ubaldo needs to pick it up but man is Masterson just as frustrating this year. Walks killed him again yesterday. Been his biggest fan for a while but he is pitching like a #4/5 same as Ubaldo now.

Tribe has to pick up Ubaldo's option. Not even a free agent after the season and non-tendering a guy you traded your top 2 pitching specs for is not smart nor will it happen.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Edible14 wrote:I think you can make the comparison between Ubaldo's 2012 and Dontrelle Willis' 2008 with the Tigers at this point. His numbers have gone that far off the cliff. His FIP, FIPx and k/9 rates are so far out of line with his career norms right now. At this point in 2008, the Tigers pulled the plug on Dontrelle and furthered his downward spiral. The Indians don't, as of now, really have that same option. But if he continues to pitch like this... how likely does it become that the Indians even pick up the option on him this off-season?

He's a below replacement level pitcher right now. Given all the arms they have at AAA, and with Carlos Carrasco returning... it might be a good idea just to let Ubaldo go after this season. It would seem an awful waste after the trade, but you have to think of that as a sunk cost now. In a more fair situation where contracts and options weren't considerations, I think there would be a decent chance that McAllister would be ahead of Jimenez in the rotational pecking order right now. If things don't change, the Indians would be doing a disservice to their team by picking up the option. In fact, picking up Travis Hafner's option would be a way better idea.


I do think you make a valid point with your Willis comp.

I think you're overrating our AAA arms though. Our rotation is terrible right now, especially when you consider Lowe's age and that he's a free agent. Counting on guys like Carrasco, Gomez, McAllister, etc for a whole season is very risky. Ubaldo is terrible (on the road) right now but at least has proven that he can last a whole ML season. At worst he's an innings eater and that's what he'll be paid like next year.

Fair enough I guess think picking up Hafner's option would be the better idea, but IMO picking up the option of the SP that can give you 170-200 innings is WAY smarter, especially when it's worth less than half (and when the pitcher isn't even a free agent).
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:27 pm

Tony, speak to the mental flaws.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:15 pm

Yes, what mental flaws?

By the way, Alex White beat the best team in baseball last night, in case nobody noticed. 6.1 innings, 2 earned runs.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby indians1 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:51 pm

ubaldo is a guy that is supposed to be in his peak years as a pitcher but is performing like so many have done before him.

There are alot of guys that can have a good year or 2 but the great ones or at least the good ones play at a high level for at least 5 or 6 years.

Ubaldo is not the only one, but if you look at peralta, carmona, choo, hafner, and grady. (due to injury or the inability to develop their game further or both), these guys have failed to consistently be good when they were counted on the most. i know grady and hafner had 3 or 4 good seasons, but they never elevated their games to the level they were projected to.

whether alex white and pomeranz ever materialize, we don't know, but they have time on their side. They are both 23 years old and both have much better control than ubaldo. Their contracts would have been cheaper and we would have controlled them for longer than we would have ubaldo.

like tony said, we don't know if they will pan out, but they had value. We could have sold them high which we did but we got nothing in return.

That trade along with the little value we have received from the CC and cliff lee trades have really hurt us. For what we gave up to get ubaldo, we should have been getting a CC/cliff lee type pitcher back and we didn't. No matter how people want to spin last year's trade as a positive, it is a clear and utter disaster.

Anotonetti and shapiro have to live with that. They now have to draft even better than they have the last few years and have to come up with some shrewd trades if we have any chance at the division or world series.

With how this team is playing now with no elite play, we may hang around through the summer, but we will fade just like last year. I am not a "hater", those are just the facts.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:01 pm

And Ubaldo beat the best team in baseball last month the Texas Rangers, so what does that prove?
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:09 pm

indians1 wrote: i know grady and hafner had 3 or 4 good seasons, but they never elevated their games to the level they were projected to.


Are you serious?

Hafner was arguably the best hitter in the AL for 2-3 years until injuries sapped him.

Sizemore had a 4 year stretch of at least 70 XBH (including 92 in 2006) when he was the games most dynamic and destructive leadoff hitter until, again, injuries hit.

Those two guys were the arguably best players at their position for a 3-4 year stretch.... the numbers they put up were spectacular until they were beset with injuries and yet you somehow think "they never elevated their games to the level they were projected to"????

Did someone project them to be jesus??
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:44 pm

ironmike wrote:And Ubaldo beat the best team in baseball last month the Texas Rangers, so what does that prove?


That he had one good game? Other than that... nothing.

Hermie13 wrote:Masterson may make more than Ubaldo next year...and has been almost as bad (5.56 ERA in 11 starts since opening day, opponents hitting over 20 pts higher off him than Ubaldo in that stretch). Should we not bring him back either? Ubaldo needs to pick it up but man is Masterson just as frustrating this year. Walks killed him again yesterday. Been his biggest fan for a while but he is pitching like a #4/5 same as Ubaldo now.

Tribe has to pick up Ubaldo's option. Not even a free agent after the season and non-tendering a guy you traded your top 2 pitching specs for is not smart nor will it happen.


I do have a little more patience for Masterson, since he was good a lot more recently. Looking at some advanced statistics, Justin has a better FIP, FIPx and is an above-replacement player. While both have seen their walk rate balloon and their homer rate skyrocket, Masterson at least still strikes guys out. And while Masterson's BABIP is exactly at .300, Jimenez' is at .279, suggesting that somehow he's actually been luckier than he's pitched.

Masterson still has some value to this team, as disappointing as he's been. And I can be at least a bit more optimistic with him than Ubaldo, who I can't say I see where he gets better at this point. If pitching coaches, scouts, radar guns and advanced stats all say that Jimenez is broken and not looking repairable... I'm having difficulty seeing where I can expect him to get there. That seems like wasted hope to me. I mean, I'd be thrilled if he turned it around, I just don't see where that happens. And if he keeps pitching the way he has been, he will have cost this team a win and a half, WAR-wise, throughout the entire season. To put that in perspective, he would be a worse player for his position than Matt LaPorta was last year or the year before that.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby indians1 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:11 pm

I agree with the last post. We all want ubaldo to turn it around but we also have to be realistic. He has had almost almost a full year and his control is no better, if not worse.

If people want to point to one start where he went 6 or 7 innings and gave up a few runs as evidence the trade was worth it, then keep smoking the good stuff.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby daingean » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:14 am

indians1 wrote:I agree with the last post. We all want ubaldo to turn it around but we also have to be realistic. He has had almost almost a full year and his control is no better, if not worse.

If people want to point to one start where he went 6 or 7 innings and gave up a few runs as evidence the trade was worth it, then keep smoking the good stuff.


Even at his best, Ubaldo never had good control. The concerning thing is his loss of velocity. Both him and F-Bob ((when he gets his visa) need to be with Lowe all the time (except when Mr. Lowe is drinking). They both need to learn how to be sinker ball pitchers.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:21 am

Ubaldo was hitting 96 MPH with his fastball last night according to Lou Marson. He ought to know he was there, so let's squelch the BS his velocity is down.

His fastball is more than good enough, excellent breaking ball. He just needs to get ahead in the count consistently, like ALL the other pitchers in baseball. He will. He's capable of winning 5-6 games in a row, let's hope he does. Agree totally with what Marson said, Ubaldo needs to work both sides of the plate, pitch off the fastball, and stay with his bread and butter pitches more often, thus eliminating his wide assortment of pitches.

He's pitched well against the Blue Jays, Tigers and Rangers, he can be dominant as a Cleveland Indian.

If it takes Lou Marson catching him every game to get the best out of him, so be it.
Last edited by ironmike on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:27 am

ironmike wrote:Ubaldo was hitting 96 MPH with his fastball last night according to Lou Marson. He ought to know he was there, so let's squelch the BS his velocity is down.

The guy has great stuff.


He hit that a few times, but he was sitting a few ticks lower. And even then, he's STILL down from where he was a few years ago, where his fastball hit triple digits occasionally and his average velocity was above 95. His CHANGEUP was 90 MPH a few years ago, and that still had separation from his fastball.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx? ... P&pitch=FA

If you want proof of all of this. His velocity is STILL down, and that's never really been disputable.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:36 am

Edible is this all about YOU. The guy's velocity is fine. If he wanted to crank it, HE could.

It's about pitching, not throwing. 92-94 with MOVEMENT and location is all that matters.

Shove that report where the sun doesn't shine. Ever consider the NITWITs baseball IQ who wrote it. Games are NOT won and loss with radar guns.

Enjoy the guy and quit trying to make all this personal.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:00 am

Edible14 wrote:
ironmike wrote:Ubaldo was hitting 96 MPH with his fastball last night according to Lou Marson. He ought to know he was there, so let's squelch the BS his velocity is down.

The guy has great stuff.


He hit that a few times, but he was sitting a few ticks lower. And even then, he's STILL down from where he was a few years ago, where his fastball hit triple digits occasionally and his average velocity was above 95. His CHANGEUP was 90 MPH a few years ago, and that still had separation from his fastball.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx? ... P&pitch=FA

If you want proof of all of this. His velocity is STILL down, and that's never really been disputable.


Okay.. Agreed.. his velocity is down four ticks.. so is his velo on his change thereby keeping the separation..his curve is slower too.. The same can be said about a pretty big kid from Valejo California.. He had a velo on his FB in the 94.8 - 95.2 range earlier in his career.. but is now typically sitting in the 92 - 93 range...and is a MUCH better pitcher..

While velocity on the fastball sets up every other pitch, the pure number isn't what sets it up..it's the separation, arm slot consistency and delivery mechanics that give pitchers the deception to go out to the hill ever five days to give his team a chance to win..

Ubaldo's "pitching" light may be coming on..or last night's effort is an outlier.. we shall see...
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:53 am

He was at 92-94 last night, but even at that somewhat lower velocity the Tigers were not able to make good contact except for the two hits by Cabrera and maybe one line drive by Fielder that Choo caught. I saw him hit 95 on the gun a couple of times but those pitches were nowhere near the plate. When he tries to reach back for a couple of extra MPH's he loses control completely.

It was a different kind of game for Ubaldo in that he only walked one hitter in almost seven innings, which was the most positive thing I saw, and he only had one strikeout if you don't count the guy they just brought up from AAA. Ubaldo was throwing strikes with his fastball, inducing poor contact, keeping his pitch count under control and not giving any free passes. Way, way different from what we've seen recently. If he can keep that up he'll be successful regardless of velocity.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby daingean » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:59 am

Until Ubaldo demonstrates consistency (I would say stringing together a run of 5-6 QS in a row), we have a BOR starter. He's 6-4 which is pretty good for a #4. He's had QS in 6 of his 11 starts. The problem is we paid for a #1 starter and we just are not getting that. Both him and F-Bob are both swing and miss type pitchers (both throw pitches that look like they are in the zone but drop out of it before crossing the plate). Until they can throw strikes when they need it, they will be inconsistent. UJ is what he is....pretty good against free swinging clubs like the Tiggers but we will see against the more patient teams.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:07 am

Don't get carried away guys..... Ubaldo was certainly better last night, but nowhere near brilliant by any stretch.

He was still pitching behind in the count a lot (only 11 of 27 first pitch strikes) and he was only 55 strikes out of 102 pitches overall.

Plus, his other main problem (apart from the walks) was still glaringly obvious - he didn't miss any bats - only 4 swings and misses all game and I'd venture a guess that 3 of them were Matt Young!

I'd love to believe this is a start of things to come, but I'm afraid I can't help thinking that this is nothing more than another Ubaldo "tease" start.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:20 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Don't get carried away guys..... Ubaldo was certainly better last night, but nowhere near brilliant by any stretch.

He was still pitching behind in the count a lot (only 11 of 27 first pitch strikes) and he was only 55 strikes out of 102 pitches overall.

Plus, his other main problem (apart from the walks) was still glaringly obvious - he didn't miss any bats - only 4 swings and misses all game and I'd venture a guess that 3 of them were Matt Young!

I'd love to believe this is a start of things to come, but I'm afraid I can't help thinking that this is nothing more than another Ubaldo "tease" start.


I agree with you here. This start reminded me some of Masterson's against Detroit. Results were good on the surface but watching him left a lot to be desired. The huge strikezone helped him as did the big park (a few of those balls are extra base hits/possibly homers in Cleveland).

Overall though a positive start. Hopefully it can build some confidence. Probably his best road start in a Tribe uni too. I think Ubaldo can be effective though even if he is "wild" like he was last night. The whole "effecitively wild" concept is basically made for a guy like Ubaldo.

ha, and your guess was right, 3 of the 4 swings and misses were by Young...the 4th was by Laird who didn't start the game. Agree too, that's a big problem with him right now.

Gotta love only 1 walk though from Ubaldo. Will be HUGE if he can continue to limit the free passes.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:14 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Don't get carried away guys..... Ubaldo was certainly better last night, but nowhere near brilliant by any stretch.

He was still pitching behind in the count a lot (only 11 of 27 first pitch strikes) and he was only 55 strikes out of 102 pitches overall.

Plus, his other main problem (apart from the walks) was still glaringly obvious - he didn't miss any bats - only 4 swings and misses all game and I'd venture a guess that 3 of them were Matt Young!

I'd love to believe this is a start of things to come, but I'm afraid I can't help thinking that this is nothing more than another Ubaldo "tease" start.


Yes, he got behind, but the difference last night was when he was down 3-1 or 2-0 the next pitch was in the strike zone, and they weren't hitting it hard. He got 20 outs while giving up 5 hits, and only one was for extra bases and that was a ground ball over third base. Even when they were in a hitter's count and sitting on a fastball they couldn't nail it.

In the past he was consistently walking guys when he got down in the count. Also, they would foul off ridiculous numbers of pitches leading to extremely high pitch counts. For some reason last night was different. He wasn't walking batters despite throwing a lot of balls, and they weren't fouling off as many pitches as usual. Was this a tease or did he make some adjustment in those eight days off that resulted in a better performance? I don't know - I guess we'll just have to see what happens over his next couple of starts.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby indians1 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:25 pm

I really hope it's not a tease. The indians have to know what they have in him within the next 4 weeks. He needs to string along quality starts consecutively.

I was happy the indians pushed his start back to tuesday where he was on the road. I think he was supposed to pitch on sunday at home.

You have have to know what you have in ubaldo if you are thinking of making a trade for a bat. If he is a flop and starts pitching bad enough, it would be stupid to make a trade because you can't compete for the playoffs without at least 1 star pitcher and a solid #2.

right now we don't have either. We need ubaldo and masterson to start pitching well because if they pitch bad like they have been, (prior to last night), we will will have extended losing streaks that push us out of contention.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 pm

ironmike wrote:Edible is this all about YOU. The guy's velocity is fine. If he wanted to crank it, HE could.

It's about pitching, not throwing. 92-94 with MOVEMENT and location is all that matters.

Shove that report where the sun doesn't shine. Ever consider the NITWITs baseball IQ who wrote it. Games are NOT won and loss with radar guns.

Enjoy the guy and quit trying to make all this personal.


Woah, woah, woah... calm yourself now. I wasn't trying to get personal, and I really don't see the need on your end.

You made a factual statement about how reports of Jimenez' velocity being down were BS. I refuted this.

If you want to claim that the velocity drop isn't important, then fine. I've got no problem with that. But to claim it didn't happen is factually incorrect. Jimenez was throwing much harder a few years ago. That's all I'm saying. It is absolutely true that Ubaldo could succeed throwing at the velocity he throws at now. There's a lot of very good pitchers who get by for less. Obviously, it's not been working for him for as long as he's been here.

Again, I hope he turns it around. Something about his k/bb ratio dropping from 2+ the last 3 seasons to an abysmal .86 seems like it has to turn upwards at some point this year. His performance has been, in a literal sense to me, unbelievably bad so far. Sure, it seems like that can't possibly be for real. But implosions like this aren't unheard of (hence the Willis comp from earlier), and I think there's a point to be made about if this continues... what's the point in bringing him back next season?
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:23 am

Great game Ubaldo.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:39 am

Ubaldo seemed to be able to throw strikes any time he wanted.. a few too many balls in the dirt for my liking. Otherwise, he was clearly in command.. He touched 96 mph on a couple of pitches, but sat at 93-94 for the most part. This makes two good outings in a row for him.. that click you heard, could be the light going on inside ubaldo's head.. i.e.. him getting what it's going to take to be a front of the rotation SP for the Wahoo's.. Nice to see Justin Masterson and Josh Tomlin showing Ubaldo the way.. Now, if Derek Lowe can get his pitches down in the zone & JeanMar makes a decision not to nibble when he has the count in his favor, then the Indians may have something...
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:52 am

Two strong games in a row by Ubaldo against teams ranked 2nd and 12th out of 30 in scoring. Very impressive, especially since he allowed only ONE walk in nearly 14 innings and his pitch count never got out of control. If he can keep this up it would be a huge lift for the Tribe.

Tomlin, Masterson and Ubaldo combined for a 1.71 ERA against the 2nd best offense in baseball. Pestano continues to have nerves of steel, working his way out of a bases loaded jam despite not having his best command. The road to the playoffs is wide open if Ubaldo and Masterson can keep pitching like they did in their last starts. Tomlin looks to be fully recovered from the wrist injury. Gomez is a concern, but they can switch him out with McAlister if necessary. Otherwise the pitching looks solid at this point.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby OhioBaseball » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:27 am

Check out Ubaldo's fastball velocity chart here...

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx? ... P&pitch=FA

If nothing else, it's a positive trend.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:24 pm

He was consistently around 94-95 with the fastball, and at times touched 96/97, mixed in his slider/change ups/splitter (believe the K of Descalso was on a split) almost perfectly. He made Freese look stupid on an absolutely perfect 95 MPH fastball on the outside corner.

This is the guy the Indians traded for. Keep it going, Big U.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:00 am

Ubaldo, did his job again. If the Indians can improve their offense, and be one of the better ones in the AL, then guys like Masterson and Ubaldo can be 16-18 game winners. They can't do it alone, night after night.
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Re: Ubaldo is a mess

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:10 pm

Golf clap for Ubaldo's performance last night.. :smile
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