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Could have another great fire sale

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Could have another great fire sale

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:45 am

In the event the Tribe is out of contention by July, we could have one hell of a fire sale.

Hafner is crushing the ball and his OBP is around .500. It's still early but he is one of the top offensive players in the league. If he keeps this up an American League contender looking for an upgrade at DH might be willing to part with an attractive prospect. The Indians would save about $7 million in salary plus his $2.75 million buyout for next year.

Jack Hannahan is a Gold Glove caliber defender who appears to have finally figured it out offensively. Any team looking to add a good left-handed bat and a superior glove at 3rd would love to get this guy. With Chiz hitting well in Columbus the Tribe could easily afford to trade Hanny for a good prospect.

If Derrick Lowe keeps pitching like he has so far, he should be in demand by teams that are looking for starting pitching depth or an experienced long man in the pen.

Joe Smith and Raffie Perez are expendable due to the emerging talents of Nick Hagadone, CC Lee, and Cody Allen. They're both excellent matchup relievers who are murder on right and left-handed hitters, respectively.

It's not exactly a C.C. Sabathia/Victor Martinez/Cliff Lee haul, but if the Tribe can't keep up with the Tigers, Yanks, Red Sox, Rays and Rangers they would at least be in a position to reap a significant haul of prospects in exchange for guys who can be replaced or who are too old or too expensive.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:17 am

hmmm... Not exactly throw in the towel time.. but the premise of the posting has merit...

-On the flip side.. Hafner's $ 2.75 MM buyout may be moot when the Indians look at the "sluggers" out there and decide PRONK's option isn't such a bad price tag for a middle of the order power bat in spite of the overwhelming sentiment that he'll be given his walking papers after this season.. everyone is just wrong on this..

-Hannahan as trade bait could be in the works regardless of where the Tribe is in the standings.. RustyMike's desire to get an impact RH bat could be had if the Indians are in contention & need an OF'er & Chisenhall continues to play well..

-Surprise # 1: Casey Kotchman didn't make this imaginary list of soon to be departed Wahoos.. maybe because he's been horrible at the plate and nothing special around the bag.. In fact, Kotchman could be given his outright release if Matt LaPorta continues to rake both at Columbus as well as when he's brought up..

Surprise # 2: Shelly Duncan's name seems to be omitted.. maybe because he's no more than a match up hitter (only against LHP's) with defensive shortcomings.. A team looking to find a player who can hit LHP's and aren't too concerned about their defense might be interested.. Not many options here...

-Tommy Hamilton and Matt Underwood went on and on about Raffy Perez and his 'stuff' just not being there.. speculating that something is physically wrong.. they may be right, making Raffy un-tradeable...

-Dan Wheeler could be the guy in the pen that would merit a 'looksie' by other clubs sooner rather than later.. As you've mentioned, the Indians have CC Lee, Cody Allen, Nick Hagadone and Frank Supe'Herrmann that are primed and ready to replace at least one non-performer in the Indians bullpen..

-No mention of BOB a.k.a. FAUSTO in your listing of expendable Indians.. He could be released from his 'prison without walls' anytime.. It would only require one interested party who thinks they can "fix" him to make a trade happen.. The team that could be most interested might be the Yankees.. The loss of Pineda along with the way Phil Hughes & Freddie Garcia have been pitching might make them prime candidates for a fleecing a la the Red Sox trade for Masterson, Hagadone and Price. The Yankees don't have ANYONE in AAA that could be considered primed for a ML debut: Manny Banuelos, the NYY's # 1 pitching prospect is sitting with a plus 10 ERA in the early going and Dellin Betances, the NYY's # 2 pitching prospect can't find home plate with a map and a guide dog..

At the end of the day (last night being the day), the Indians find themselves percentage points ahead in first place in the division (Day 2) with a day game against the Royals. Let's hope the Indians can help the Royals begin another losing streak..
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby daingean » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:26 am

GeronimoSon wrote:-On the flip side.. Hafner's $ 2.75 MM buyout may be moot when the Indians look at the "sluggers" out there and decide PRONK's option isn't such a bad price tag for a middle of the order power bat in spite of the overwhelming sentiment that he'll be given his walking papers after this season.. everyone is just wrong on this..


I really don't see the value of carrying a DH only that only plays about 100 games a year. It is just pretty restricting on the 25 man roster. Now if he was a .950 OPS guy then I'd think about it.


GeronimoSon wrote:-Surprise # 1: Casey Kotchman didn't make this imaginary list of soon to be departed Wahoos.. maybe because he's been horrible at the plate and nothing special around the bag.. In fact, Kotchman could be given his outright release if Matt LaPorta continues to rake both at Columbus as well as when he's brought up..


Kotchman looks like a GG 1B compared to what we've had recently but he really is only better than average over there. But this guy doesn't have much value on the trade market (O-Cab last year had more value.) The only way that I see Kotchman being a roster victim to LaPorta is if Chiz is promoted and Hanny is moved to 1B.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:39 am

I could see Lowe being dealt, but the Indians probably won't trade Perez and Smith (well, maybe Perez). They still plan to win next year regardless of how things play out this season, so they won't be dumping guys in fire sales. Those guys would only be traded if they bring back a ML need right now to help win now. And Hannahan is dirt cheap and under control for another few years....I think they are fine with him sticking around as a handcuff to Chiz at third base or maybe even becoming the first baseman next year. Hafner is hard to trade as only 13 other teams would be able to acquire him because he is strictly a DH. Half the teams will be out of contention, and a great majority of the teams already have a DH. So he would be hard to move unless he is hitting like crazy and a good match with a contender comes up. But I think the Indians intend to keep him around next season on some kind of deal (not the $13M option next year, but a restructured deal).
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:06 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:hmmm... Not exactly throw in the towel time.. but the premise of the posting has merit...

-On the flip side.. Hafner's $ 2.75 MM buyout may be moot when the Indians look at the "sluggers" out there and decide PRONK's option isn't such a bad price tag for a middle of the order power bat in spite of the overwhelming sentiment that he'll be given his walking papers after this season.. everyone is just wrong on this..


Agree, too early to look ahead to a fire sale.

There is still a 0% chance of Hafner's option being picked up though. You could re-sign him to a $10M deal and STILL save money by declining the option. Pronk's value salary wise is around where Thome's was when he signed with Minnesota a few years back. He'll be lucky to get $3M on the open market.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:17 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Agree, too early to look ahead to a fire sale.

There is still a 0% chance of Hafner's option being picked up though. You could re-sign him to a $10M deal and STILL save money by declining the option. Pronk's value salary wise is around where Thome's was when he signed with Minnesota a few years back. He'll be lucky to get $3M on the open market.


You know who could use a good DH next year? The Yankees. I could see them picking up Hafner for more than 3 million. They're content with Ibanez/Andruw Jones as their DH platoon, and Hafner is a massive upgrade to Ibanez from the left side.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:21 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Agree, too early to look ahead to a fire sale.

There is still a 0% chance of Hafner's option being picked up though. You could re-sign him to a $10M deal and STILL save money by declining the option. Pronk's value salary wise is around where Thome's was when he signed with Minnesota a few years back. He'll be lucky to get $3M on the open market.


You know who could use a good DH next year? The Yankees. I could see them picking up Hafner for more than 3 million. They're content with Ibanez/Andruw Jones as their DH platoon, and Hafner is a massive upgrade to Ibanez from the left side.


The Yanks have said they want to avoid the luxury tax. The reason they went bargain shopping for a DH this year was because they didn't want to put much money into it. They also want to give A-Rod some reps there.

Maybe they go over $3M for Hafner, but I'd be pretty surprised. Combined Jones/Ibanez are only making $3.1M.

And I wouldn't call Hafner a "massive" upgrade over Ibanez. Ibanez does have 3 HRs in limited play already and a near .800 OPS. Hafner's OBP and OPS are off the charts at this moment, but let's see where it's at down the line. Ibanez is slugging .500 now, not far off Hafner's .531 mark.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:25 pm

Hermie13 wrote:The Yanks have said they want to avoid the luxury tax. The reason they went bargain shopping for a DH this year was because they didn't want to put much money into it. They also want to give A-Rod some reps there.

Maybe they go over $3M for Hafner, but I'd be pretty surprised.


I was thinking the Yankees could make a play for him at 5 million. But I think the Indians decline his option, then take him back for around 8 mil... but I could be dead wrong.

Edit: Ibanez is also worth negative value, and he's over 40.
Last edited by Magneticnorth451 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:27 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:The Yanks have said they want to avoid the luxury tax. The reason they went bargain shopping for a DH this year was because they didn't want to put much money into it. They also want to give A-Rod some reps there.

Maybe they go over $3M for Hafner, but I'd be pretty surprised.


I was thinking the Yankees could make a play for him at 5 million. But I think the Indians decline his option, then take him back for around 8 mil... but I could be dead wrong.


You could be right, but I will be very, very disappointed if the Tribe gives Hafner $8M. Would rather go with Duncan at DH and splurge on a guy like Swisher or Pena or some other 1B/OFer.

Don't forget too that David Ortiz is a free agent again. Boston could move on and put Youk at DH (help him stay healthy) and use Middlebrooks at 3B. Hafner isn't going to get more than Ortiz, and while Ortiz did get $14+M from the Sox, he wouldn't have come close to that on the open market had he not accepted the Sox arby offer.

The age of the DH-only types is quickly dying out. Ortiz, Hafner, and Thome are a dying breed. Ibanez is a terrible outfielder but can at least play there. Andruw Jones is actually a decent corner outfielder and can definitely fill in should the need arise (as it has). With Hafner...you're just stuck with him at DH. He won't have much value on the open market. Only 14 teams will really look at him (he's not Thome and the Phillies), and many AL teams won't want a DH only type. I think in the end $3M is gonna be too generous..
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:31 pm

I don't think guys like Kotchman, Duncan, and Wheeler have any more value to a contender than an Austin Kearns or Orlando Cabrera.

I could see the Tribe negotiating a deal for 2013 with Pronk if he can stay healthy and play 130 games. Which remains to be seen. Somebody pointed out that his 2011 April was almost identical with his 2012 April, and last year he ended up playing less than 100 games.

Any team trading for Hafner at the All-Star break would be taking a huge risk that he can finish the season healthy, but if he's hitting .300 with an OBP around .400 they might just do it.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:04 am

It's April 27,

Were over .500,

and there's a thread about a fire sale?,,,, Please.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby indians1 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:34 pm

the indians have no chance to compete this year. I am the biggest tribe fan, but i just don't see how they can compete.

The FO made too many assumptions and they don't have any fall back options. As far as offense, the only guy worth a damn is chisenhall, and his BB/K rate is very troublesome. Scott barnes isn't pitching well. Don't give me zach mccalister as an option.

ubaldo still has no control and the indians think they shouldn't try and fix his delivery. Masterson is looking very average. If we have one injury on the pitching staff or any of the position players, we are in trouble.

The farm system is as bare as it has been in a while.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Edible14 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:34 pm

Really? The Indians are in first place right now, and we're talking fire sale and "we can't compete this year"? You've got to be kidding me!

Listen, if the Indians are demonstrably out of it by the time the trading deadline hits, there won't be much to sell. Because that will mean that Kotchman, Hafner, Damon, Sizemore, Wheeler and Lowe have likely contributed something approaching zero, and their value to other teams will be exactly that. Pretty much everyone else on the roster is going to be here next year, there won't be much to sell off.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby indians1 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:23 am

i understand they are in first place, but the question is can they sustain the success.

We have to hope all of our pitchers stay healthy the whole year. If we have one injury on the pitching staff, what help do we have? scott barnes- he has potential-but if you look at his minor league numbers- he has been up and down. mccalister= average at best.

Out of position players- chisenhall is our only option. grady- can we really trust him to come back and play at a high level?

I really hope the indians can compete but they will need a season like 2005 where their pitching is unbelievable and they avoid injuries. the injuries have been a problem for the last few years.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:03 pm

We are in first place, shouldn't we be talking about players we could aquire rather than players we should trade away?
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:25 pm

bats that might be available
Carlos Quentin
Carlos Lee
Torii Hunter
Ryan Doumit
Marlon Byrd

arms that might be available
Zach Greinke
Cole Hamels
Ryan Dempster
Shawn Marcum
Erik Bedard
Carl Pavano

Im sure this will change some as it is still early in the season, and some teams will rise, and some will fall. Not sure we have the pieces to aquire some of these guys, but there are a few that would could possibly pick up if we are still contending. We also have Damon and Hernandez coming at some point, and possibly Sizemore.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby indians1 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:46 pm

problem is that we have nothing to offer teams to get better.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:11 pm

At this point it looks like we'll be in contention. The Tigers are 10-10. The Red Sox are in last place. I was thinking the Yankees, Tigers, and Angels would win the divisions with the Red Sox and Rays getting the wild cards. The Indians have a shot, but last year they started out 30-15 then were losers the rest of the way.

Gotta keep everybody healthy.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:41 pm

..problem is that we have nothing to offer teams to get better...


pffft... I can't tell if this comment is more naive or just flat out wrong...

ClevelandBlues wrote:bats that might be available
Carlos Quentin
Carlos Lee
Torii Hunter
Ryan Doumit
Marlon Byrd

arms that might be available
Zach Greinke
Cole Hamels
Ryan Dempster
Shawn Marcum
Erik Bedard
Carl Pavano

Im sure this will change some as it is still early in the season, and some teams will rise, and some will fall. Not sure we have the pieces to aquire some of these guys, but there are a few that would could possibly pick up if we are still contending. We also have Damon and Hernandez coming at some point, and possibly Sizemore.


I'd dearly love to see the Indians acquire Torii Hunter if for no other reason than he wouldn't kill us.. The Angels are getting to the point of desperation with exactly what the Indians have trade as a strength: Relief Pitching.. A deal for him would be HUGE, however, unlikely due to the presence of the Torii's full NTC in his expiring contract...
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:52 pm

indians1 wrote:problem is that we have nothing to offer teams to get better.


We might not have enough to land Greinke and Hamels, but the rest I could see being possible. The main problem would most likely be money. Teams would have to be willing to eat salary for a lot of those guys. If the Angels are still in the cellar, Hunter might be willing to waive his ntc to play for a contender. Aging free agents on playoff teams fare much better in the offseason than aging free agents on bad teams.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby Edible14 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:28 pm

indians1 wrote:i understand they are in first place, but the question is can they sustain the success.

We have to hope all of our pitchers stay healthy the whole year. If we have one injury on the pitching staff, what help do we have? scott barnes- he has potential-but if you look at his minor league numbers- he has been up and down. mccalister= average at best.


Depth and injuries are ALWAYS a factor, for every team. That being said, the Clippers might have the best rotation in AAA. Most starters in AAA have some serious question marks. That's really not saying much.

Heck, there's even a chance Roberto Hernandez makes his way back at some point to help out the team in case of someone getting hurt.

Why would "there could be injuries" affect the Indians' chances more than, say, the Tigers or White Sox? If the Tigers lose Verlander... they are in a whole boatload of trouble. Andrew Oliver isn't making that loss up by a long shot.
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Re: Could have another great fire sale

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:39 am

Edible14 wrote:
indians1 wrote:i understand they are in first place, but the question is can they sustain the success.

We have to hope all of our pitchers stay healthy the whole year. If we have one injury on the pitching staff, what help do we have? scott barnes- he has potential-but if you look at his minor league numbers- he has been up and down. mccalister= average at best.


Depth and injuries are ALWAYS a factor, for every team. That being said, the Clippers might have the best rotation in AAA. Most starters in AAA have some serious question marks. That's really not saying much.

Heck, there's even a chance Roberto Hernandez makes his way back at some point to help out the team in case of someone getting hurt.

Why would "there could be injuries" affect the Indians' chances more than, say, the Tigers or White Sox? If the Tigers lose Verlander... they are in a whole boatload of trouble. Andrew Oliver isn't making that loss up by a long shot.


The White Sox are playing a solid brand of baseball right now.. They could be the surprise team in the AL Central race throughout the season.. especially if Dunn continues to make solid contact. That twosome of Konerko/Dunn can be just as nasty as Fielder/Cabrera..

w/r to the Tigers, it doesn't even need to be Verlander.. The Tigers have lost the services of Doug Fister which has propelled their starting pitching staff into a constant state of disarray. Fister is slated to make a rehab start this week, so he could be back sooner rather than later, but the Tigers are clearly fragile as it relates to their starting pitching.. Delmon Young being an asshole doesn't help the Tigers situation, either..
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