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Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:35 pm

daingean wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Lowe actually had a very normal Derek Lowe year. I don't know why people keep harping on about his supposedly poor performance, because his 2011 stats are almost identical to his career numbers.


I watched most of Derek's starts last year (living here in Atlanta) and last year was not a normal year for him. Maybe stats wise (but his 9-17 5.05 are really only matched in badness by his 2004 stats) was close but it was very abnormal year for him...he would be cruising (shutout through 3 or 4 innings) then give up a 6 spot or 7 spot. He seldom made it through the 6th and never put together 3 or 4 good starts in a row. He really didn't give the Braves much last year in terms of quality starts. I know Braves fans were elated to get rid of the guy.


I'm assuming he's referring to his groundball%, FIP, and xFIP. Career FIP is 3.79...he posted a 3.70. His career xFIP is 3.66...he posted a 3.65. Groundball rates in his 3 years in Atlanta were 56.3, 58.8, and 59% last year. His fWAR was 2.6, 2.7, and 2.5 last year. Still made 34 starts (hasn't made less than 32 since he became a full-time starter in 2002) and threw 187 innings (hasn't thrown less than 182 since 2001).

He also only gave up 6 or 7 runs in a game 3 times all year too, ranted 2 of them were in September...where he just took a nose dive like the rest of Atlanta (0-5 with an ERA north of 8). Went into September though with an ok 4.52 ERA. Only 4 times all year did he not go at least 5 innings...twice in September again.

Looking at his numbers, other than ERA, the only things that looked out of the ordinary was a bump in walk rate and a drop in LOB%. BABIP was the highest it's ever been as a starter but nothing out of the ordinary. If he can keep the walks down a bit, should have a solid year. He's basically our new Westbrook. Not fancy, but is gonna give you innings, starts, and give you a shot to win. Tribe did win the division with Jake as our #3 in 2007.



Just out of curiousity, was Lowe hit harder last year than you remember from previous years? The numbers tell a lot, but no number is fullproof so not discounting what you saw or saying you're wrong. But I agree with JP here that numbers wise Lowe was very Lowe-like last year.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I'm assuming he's referring to his groundball%, FIP, and xFIP. Career FIP is 3.79...he posted a 3.70. His career xFIP is 3.66...he posted a 3.65. Groundball rates in his 3 years in Atlanta were 56.3, 58.8, and 59% last year. His fWAR was 2.6, 2.7, and 2.5 last year. Still made 34 starts (hasn't made less than 32 since he became a full-time starter in 2002) and threw 187 innings (hasn't thrown less than 182 since 2001).

He also only gave up 6 or 7 runs in a game 3 times all year too, ranted 2 of them were in September...where he just took a nose dive like the rest of Atlanta (0-5 with an ERA north of 8). Went into September though with an ok 4.52 ERA. Only 4 times all year did he not go at least 5 innings...twice in September again.

Looking at his numbers, other than ERA, the only things that looked out of the ordinary was a bump in walk rate and a drop in LOB%. BABIP was the highest it's ever been as a starter but nothing out of the ordinary. If he can keep the walks down a bit, should have a solid year. He's basically our new Westbrook. Not fancy, but is gonna give you innings, starts, and give you a shot to win. Tribe did win the division with Jake as our #3 in 2007.



Just out of curiousity, was Lowe hit harder last year than you remember from previous years? The numbers tell a lot, but no number is fullproof so not discounting what you saw or saying you're wrong. But I agree with JP here that numbers wise Lowe was very Lowe-like last year.


I think Lowe's last year was just a bad year with off the field issues affecting his game. I will say that stats can be accumulated in many ways and seeing them accumulate gives you a different opinion of the player. Derek last year would be cruising then just implode (with no warning). He would be pitching well then one inning it would be like he couldn't buy an out. Most (if not all) of my Braves friends thought he was through even Leo Mazzone (680 The Fan) stopped making excuses for him (Leo is very good at making excuses ... especially for pitchers). So seeing him fight through the adversity in the 4th yesterday was encouraging for me. I hope he continues.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:48 pm

Pitiful!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:52 pm

There are precisely ZERO circumstances where it's acceptable for Aaron Cunningham to be batting with 2 outs in the 9th in a 2-run game.

Awful management by Acta.... I don't care if there's a LHP on the mound, anyone on the bench is a better bet to get on base.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:There are precisely ZERO circumstances where it's acceptable for Aaron Cunningham to be batting with 2 outs in the 9th in a 2-run game.

Awful management by Acta.... I don't care if there's a LHP on the mound, anyone on the bench is a better bet to get on base.


Still questioning why he's on this team, personally..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:34 pm

Meh. Cunningham was 1 for 2 off lefties on the day heading into that at-bat. Would prefer to see Hanny in there personally though.

Would have rather have seen Cunningham pinch hit for in the 7th when Reed was brought in to face him. Get that Kip had just grounded into a DP but still don't like Cunninham vs a righty there.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:28 pm

Not exactly the kind of start to this game.. CWSox drop a four spot on the Indians.. Hannahan's second error.. The CWSox made amends by dropping a Droob's pop out followed by a wild pitch for a run a couple batters later.. Going to the second, 4-1 CWSox on the North Coast...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby go_tribe » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:46 pm

what the hell is with the strike zone today, Masterson is hitting pitches right down the middle that are being called balls. He had Konerko looking and it was called a ball, extending the inning with 2 outs.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:55 pm

Duncans 1st HR, hope thats a good sign. Brantley is stinking at leading off, but really what else can you do. Donald really needs more playing time, reaching the point where he might GO at the ML level. Hard to fit him in.
As far as Cunningham is concerned, if Crowe keeps raking in Cbus I might just give him a shot come May 1st if Cunningham isn't doing anything. It might be time to move Brantley down in the line-up give him a chance to regain some confidence.

All I know is our re-inforcements in CBus are a couple guys named Chisenhall and LaPorta. Chisenhall will join the 2012 team, the question is when. LaPorta is well, we know that guy we think. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Chiz sooner then later and either LaPorta or even Crowe if Brantley and/or Cunningham aren't cutting it. I am all for giving Cunningham a chance, but I hope its a short leash, we got guys in Cbus who could do a better job.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:47 am

criznit2009 wrote:Duncans 1st HR, hope thats a good sign. Brantley is stinking at leading off, but really what else can you do. Donald really needs more playing time, reaching the point where he might GO at the ML level. Hard to fit him in.
As far as Cunningham is concerned, if Crowe keeps raking in Cbus I might just give him a shot come May 1st if Cunningham isn't doing anything. It might be time to move Brantley down in the line-up give him a chance to regain some confidence.

All I know is our re-inforcements in CBus are a couple guys named Chisenhall and LaPorta. Chisenhall will join the 2012 team, the question is when. LaPorta is well, we know that guy we think. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Chiz sooner then later and either LaPorta or even Crowe if Brantley and/or Cunningham aren't cutting it. I am all for giving Cunningham a chance, but I hope its a short leash, we got guys in Cbus who could do a better job.


Reality is Hannahan is hitting (on of the few) and he won the 3B job fair and square. Chiz may provide more Offense over the course of the season but if Hanny is hitting in May then you really makes sense to give Chiz more seasoning at AAA.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:21 am

The bad news..

-The Indians went down to defeat for the fourth time in five games to start the season..

-Justin Masterson was being squeezed and or the home plate umpire had a very inconsistent strike zone.. it happens. The pitches from Masterson had good late movement and velocity.

-Dan Wheeler flat out stunk.. when he gets under the ball.. it flattens and veteran hitters POUND him.. He couldn't buy a strike with his slider, so, there was no mystery...

-Raffy Perez didn't pitch as bad as his line showed.. Perez, with his slider, needs to have warmer weather to get the feel, command and control.. that wasn't what he had to deal with yesterday.. He should be okay, though..

-Double digit LOB is a bad.. but you can't have double digit LOB if there aren't guys getting on base. Eric Wedge used to say generating offense was a process.. 1. the players have to track and recognize pitches.. 2. players have to put good swings on pitches to hit.. 3. players have to get on base.. 4. players have to score runs when players are on the base paths.. It looks like the Indians are moving from the second step to the third step..

The good news..

-PRONK is really swinging the bat well.. aggressively and with mean intentions.. Like the PRONK of old, dare I say..

-Duncan followed suit.. and this could be a 'thing' of the future.. as more and more guys follow PRONK's lead.. We'll see how this manifests in KC..

-When Manny brought JeanMar into the game.. it was a bit 'unusual'.. thinking that this outing could compromise his starting assignment, but, it was his day to throw a bullpen..so, the live action may actually benefit him in the long run..

-Jairo Ascencio seems to have a rubber arm and good stuff..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:40 pm

I'm not minding Ascensio as the long reliever thus far. I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Herrmann, but I'm not sure that matters either.

Of the starters thus far, the only one I have any reservations about given their opening performance is Tomlin. The offense will come with time - they're not going to collectively hit under the mendoza line all season - the starting pitching is the thing that will drive this team to success or failure. So far, I'm encouraged by what I see.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:53 pm

Edible14 wrote:I'm not minding Ascensio as the long reliever thus far. I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Herrmann, but I'm not sure that matters either.

Of the starters thus far, the only one I have any reservations about given their opening performance is Tomlin. The offense will come with time - they're not going to collectively hit under the mendoza line all season - the starting pitching is the thing that will drive this team to success or failure. So far, I'm encouraged by what I see.


Agree completely here. I am a bit worried about the offense, but agree no way can they hit this bad all year. Also a bit worried on Tomlin...hasn't been the same guy since May of last year. Like our top 3 though and think they could compete with anyone in the AL really. They will need to if we want any chance at winning the division.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:47 pm

Regarding Matt LaPorta's current "dominance" in Triple-A; am I the only one who doesn't care? First, he's managed to strike out 9 times in 33 AB's compared to only 1 walk and that's not impressive at all. Second, we've seen LaPorta perform well in Triple-A before but manage to suck in the majors. Yawn. Third, the guy has a super stiff swing -- his upper body is quite developed -- most baseball hitters aren't built like that except maybe Carlos Quentin. Most good hitters have sloped shoulders and a loose upper body. LaPorta reminds me of a poor man's Gabe Kapler with that stiff swing.

The Indians' Sabathia trade blunder has set the organization back. If LaPorta was actually good, the Indians would be a legitimate AL Central contender right now, if not favorite, rather than just a modestly popular sleeper pick.

Matt LaPorta sucks. Let's move on.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:52 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Regarding Matt LaPorta's current "dominance" in Triple-A; am I the only one who doesn't care? First, he's managed to strike out 9 times in 33 AB's compared to only 1 walk and that's not impressive at all. Second, we've seen LaPorta perform well in Triple-A before but manage to suck in the majors. Yawn. Third, the guy has a super stiff swing -- his upper body is quite developed -- most baseball hitters aren't built like that except maybe Carlos Quentin. Most good hitters have sloped shoulders and a loose upper body. LaPorta reminds me of a poor man's Gabe Kapler with that stiff swing.

The Indians' Sabathia trade blunder has set the organization back. If LaPorta was actually good, the Indians would be a legitimate AL Central contender right now, if not favorite, rather than just a modestly popular sleeper pick.

Matt LaPorta sucks. Let's move on.


You may be the only one that "doesn't care" about how LaPorta has hit (think that's a tad harsh), but I know i agree, not overly excited by his start. I mean, it is good to see that he is at least showing power down there. Agree the K's (and lack of walks) is very discouraging, but 4 HRs and 6 extra base hits in 8 games is something at least.


Guy I am impressed with is Crowe. A complete afterthought with all the OF options brought in, he actually looks like he wants big league job. 3 walks to 2 K's, pair of HRs, couple steals, OBP just south of .500. No chance of him coming up (I'd think) and it has only been 18 at-bats but would really rather see him than Cunningham (though likely moot point with the Damon signing)...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:Regarding Matt LaPorta's current "dominance" in Triple-A; am I the only one who doesn't care? First, he's managed to strike out 9 times in 33 AB's compared to only 1 walk and that's not impressive at all. Second, we've seen LaPorta perform well in Triple-A before but manage to suck in the majors. Yawn. Third, the guy has a super stiff swing -- his upper body is quite developed -- most baseball hitters aren't built like that except maybe Carlos Quentin. Most good hitters have sloped shoulders and a loose upper body. LaPorta reminds me of a poor man's Gabe Kapler with that stiff swing.

The Indians' Sabathia trade blunder has set the organization back. If LaPorta was actually good, the Indians would be a legitimate AL Central contender right now, if not favorite, rather than just a modestly popular sleeper pick.

Matt LaPorta sucks. Let's move on.


You may be the only one that "doesn't care" about how LaPorta has hit (think that's a tad harsh), but I know i agree, not overly excited by his start. I mean, it is good to see that he is at least showing power down there. Agree the K's (and lack of walks) is very discouraging, but 4 HRs and 6 extra base hits in 8 games is something at least.


Guy I am impressed with is Crowe. A complete afterthought with all the OF options brought in, he actually looks like he wants big league job. 3 walks to 2 K's, pair of HRs, couple steals, OBP just south of .500. No chance of him coming up (I'd think) and it has only been 18 at-bats but would really rather see him than Cunningham (though likely moot point with the Damon signing)...


I don't mind that lack of walks and the K's right now. The guy is hitting well and I don't mind guys being aggressive when hot......if/when he cools down some, I do hope that he works the pitchers....plus I haven't seen any of his games so maybe he is working the count....the sample size is pretty small but he's got to be seeing the pitches well.

Crowe is a guy that I hope keeps things up because he can play all 3 OF positions....that's something lacking in our advanced prospect tree.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:53 am

Regarding Crowe and LaPorta, there was an interesting quote in today's Minor Happenings from the Tribe's minor league director in which he talked about how it's not so much the stats, but how the hitters are getting their hits. Are they just taking advantage of sub-major league pitching, or are they putting up quality at-bats and doing the things that will get them back to the bigs?

LaPorta has hit two of his HR's to the opposite field, so that's encouraging. I always thought he screwed himself by trying to pull everything. At age 27 and finding himself back in the minors again after a failed 2011 season and a poor spring training, he's no longer in a position to do it "his way". He needs to be receptive to the changes the organization wants him to make or he'll be on the street in the prime of his career. Early indications are that he may be doing just that, so I'll hold on to a shread of hope for this guy, even though the chances of him beating out Duncan in left or Lopes/Kotchman at first are remote.

Crowe doesn't play defense well enough to play center and his bat doesn't play in right or left, so he's competing with Neal, Canzler, Carerra, and Cunningham for the 4th OF job. If he keeps hitting like this he has a shot.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:58 pm

Crowe's defense may not be the best, but he's more than adequate for any of the three outfield spots as a fourth OF'er. His bat, especially with his hot start (1.107 OPS, more walks than K's, .333/.440/.667 triple slash, and a couple of homers) is showing he is finally healthy.. The former first round pick has the pedigree and could be back in Cleveland soon rather than later.... or.. He may also be trade bait as the Red Sox have just lost their star CF'er in Jacoby Ellsbury for at least a couple of months, perhaps longer. The Red Sox would be a prime candidate for another "cherry picking" Perhaps former Golden Flash Travis Shaw or even young Mr. Henry Owens could be pilfered from the beantowners.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:02 pm

Jack Hannahan had the best response to Choo getting hit by another pitch- get ahold of the pitcher by the shirt and be squarely in the face. ACab took over the spot as people got Jack out of there.

My question now (as the tribe continues to hit & score) should Jeanmar put a pitch into the 1st KC hitter when he gets to the mound? Since there were no warnings, he should get the opportunity & stay in the game. Is it needed now being up 5?

Edit: it's bull that Gomez got tossed. Why issue a warning prior to Gomez throwing a pitch? Had the warning been issued after the inside pitch from Gomez, I would have been ok with it - Gomez got a freebie & then warnings were issued to get everyone back to playing the game.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:19 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Jack Hannahan had the best response to Choo getting hit by another pitch- get ahold of the pitcher by the shirt and be squarely in the face. ACab took over the spot as people got Jack out of there.

My question now (as the tribe continues to hit & score) should Jeanmar put a pitch into the 1st KC hitter when he gets to the mound? Since there were no warnings, he should get the opportunity & stay in the game. Is it needed now being up 5?

Edit: it's bull that Gomez got tossed. Why issue a warning prior to Gomez throwing a pitch? Had the warning been issued after the inside pitch from Gomez, I would have been ok with it - Gomez got a freebie & then warnings were issued to get everyone back to playing the game.


I'm with you. If the pitch had been at the guys head then yes, go ahead and toss him. Let the guys on the field police the game as long as you're not head hunting. I'm sure Gomez was prepared to get tossed but you just have to send the message back. Why don't we just go ahead and hit a guy in the 1st inning so they issue the warning and we can go on with the game as normal?

This game would have been so much better had Gomez been able to go deeper in the game.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:31 pm

Jenmar Gomez let the kid loose, don't think he will get any better in AAA but could get better as a ML regular. IDK just my thoughts but think he has earned the opportunity to the 4th/5th starter in this rotation. Too bad his outing got cut short, look forward to seeing what the kid can do next time around.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:55 pm

Look what I found! Ball game!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:57 pm

Acta - Quit taking Duncan out of the game. We just signed Damon, let Duncan play full games for now. He hasn't been terrible and his bat has been ok. Until Damon is ready let Duncan play deeper into games for now on. Sorry Cunningham isnt cutting it, rather see Duncan until CPerez is in the game.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:48 pm

Criz.. Duncan needs to be taken out of the game whenever there is a RH pitcher in the game.. especially late in games. It could be argued that regardless of what inning, if Shelly is going to be facing a RHP, he should be sitting.. Sadly, Aaron Cunningham isn't the answer either. Maybe Damon will be.. or perhaps the Indians will give up on Cunningham early and bring up Huffman or Crowe.. Scoring 19 runs in two games is easy to like.. Giving up 12, mostly by the pen..isn't quite so nice..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:50 am

Duncan was one of our best hitters last year against righties. Much rather have him in their hitting than Cunningham, Donald, or Marson (guys typically on the bench). Can understand defensive reasons for taking him out late in games though.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:59 pm

I know it is early in the season and the sample sizes are still pretty small, but one guy who has me concerned is Sipp. It is not just bad stats that have me concerned (3.43 whip, 19.29 era .462 baa), but also the fact that he seems like he is pitching batting practice when he is out there. Hopefully he can turn it around, but right now I hate to see him come into the game when it is close and an out is needed.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:47 pm

"Criz.. Duncan needs to be taken out of the game whenever there is a RH pitcher in the game.. especially late in games."

I am sorry - on this team I simply do not see Duncan as a weak link in the batting order. The guy can hit for power - something we need.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:22 am

Hagadone is pitching well in Columbus so if Sipp doesn't pull himself together he may find himself down there, assuming he has options left.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:45 am

Prosecutor wrote:Hagadone is pitching well in Columbus so if Sipp doesn't pull himself together he may find himself down there, assuming he has options left.


Yep, Sipp has three options left. If he continues to struggle....and really he has always been shaky in the pen...then I think the first move in the pen will be to send Sipp out and call up Hagadone. I think the Indians will wait until the end of April though and get a larger sample size before doing that. It would also allow them to manage Hagadone's service time and get him so he finishes the season with less than 172 service days, and hence get an extra year of control.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:01 pm

Asdrubal has been placed on the Bereavement List and Hagadone called up for tonights game.

There's been a death in AC's immediate family.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:58 am

Another "easy" win for the Indians.. Chris Perez comes in and shows why peripherals are meaningless if the one stat that matters, save conversion, is achieved.. phew !!..

What's not being whispered.. everyone was involved in the offensive display.. 10 guys went to bat.. 10 guys got at least one hit including Shelly Duncan with an opposite field single (well.. sort of, right center) off a right hander (in his first AB, he hit a weak fly ball on a pitch he was obviously fooled on. Jason Donald took a punch, went down and kept fighting. Manny needs to keep JD on the field, somehow.. When the offense is firing on all cylinders like this.. it's a fun game..

Masterson wasn't exactly 'sharp' last night.. Hagadone's slider is a nasty thing of beauty.. If he can keep that pitch in the zone while developing his change a wee bit, following Masterson's lead as a bullpen guy to starter would make the VMart trade, already a "win", become a rout..

Miguel Montero is a horrible catcher.. he takes more time to stand up, set his feet improperly and throw than most H.S. catchers.. As a catcher.. he's going to make a fine DH...

Jack Hannahan leads the team in errors for the season. The bumbling/stumbling/through the wickets ground ball he booted last night is one he has to make the play on... The Indians have 7 errors total.. Hannahan has 4 of them.. Hannahan is the starter based on the combination of his glove work and timely hitting. The guys down in Columbus are going to start kicking the door to the ML's in soon... the quartet of Lonnie Chisenhall, Trevor Crowe, Matt LaPorta & Cord Phelps are just crushing the ball...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:52 am

Great job by Perez in recovering from the bad hop ground ball that should have ended the game. Getting Saunders to pop out with one out and the tying run on 3rd was huge, especially since he didn't have his best control.

The Tribe has scored 47 runs in the last five games after getting shut down by the White Sox in the first series. Very impressive. What a comeback last night after being down 8-1.

Duncan with two more walks after drawing five in the Royals series. He's really showing a lot more discipline than previously. Not to mention a single to right field. He's looking more and more like a professional hitter as opposed to a hacker who occasionally punishes a mistake, like Kelly Shoppach and Matt LaPorta.

Santana with a 3-run HR and another drive that would have been out of most parks. I'm expecting a huge year from him.

Sipp has been terrible and the scouts say Raffie's velocity is way down after having a sore shoulder in spring training. Hagadone could be an important piece very soon, if not now.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:50 am

Prosecutor wrote:Sipp has been terrible and the scouts say Raffie's velocity is way down after having a sore shoulder in spring training. Hagadone could be an important piece very soon, if not now.


I was wondering how much longer Sipp and Raffy Perez would last in the bullpen. Glad to see Hagadone get his shot, and I hope he sticks.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:29 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Another "easy" win for the Indians.. Chris Perez comes in and shows why peripherals are meaningless if the one stat that matters, save conversion, is achieved.. phew !!..

What's not being whispered.. everyone was involved in the offensive display.. 10 guys went to bat.. 10 guys got at least one hit including Shelly Duncan with an opposite field single (well.. sort of, right center) off a right hander (in his first AB, he hit a weak fly ball on a pitch he was obviously fooled on. Jason Donald took a punch, went down and kept fighting. Manny needs to keep JD on the field, somehow.. When the offense is firing on all cylinders like this.. it's a fun game..

Masterson wasn't exactly 'sharp' last night.. Hagadone's slider is a nasty thing of beauty.. If he can keep that pitch in the zone while developing his change a wee bit, following Masterson's lead as a bullpen guy to starter would make the VMart trade, already a "win", become a rout..

Miguel Montero is a horrible catcher.. he takes more time to stand up, set his feet improperly and throw than most H.S. catchers.. As a catcher.. he's going to make a fine DH...

Jack Hannahan leads the team in errors for the season. The bumbling/stumbling/through the wickets ground ball he booted last night is one he has to make the play on... The Indians have 7 errors total.. Hannahan has 4 of them.. Hannahan is the starter based on the combination of his glove work and timely hitting. The guys down in Columbus are going to start kicking the door to the ML's in soon... the quartet of Lonnie Chisenhall, Trevor Crowe, Matt LaPorta & Cord Phelps are just crushing the ball...


Miguel Montero is a very good catcher. Now, Jesus Montero....agree there :wink


I still can't see Hags ever going back to the rotation. I was one of his biggest supporters in that role when we first got him, but he's a bullpen guy now, plain and simple. Many scouts questioned the Red Sox ever putting him in a rotation. I think he could end up a closer even in the mold of a Billy Wagner.

Definitely not something you want to see with Hanny, but still has shown solid range over at the hot corner. Needs to make those easy plays though for sure. Shouldn't be in any danger of losing his job to Chiz yet as he's hitting well and has 5 walks to 7 K's so far. Random...but Chiz and Hanny currently account for 53% of the Indians and Clippers error total on the year (8 of 15). Chisenhall and Toole are the only non-catchers to make an error for the Clippers too. Chiz still has work to do defensively.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:30 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Sipp has been terrible and the scouts say Raffie's velocity is way down after having a sore shoulder in spring training. Hagadone could be an important piece very soon, if not now.


I was wondering how much longer Sipp and Raffy Perez would last in the bullpen. Glad to see Hagadone get his shot, and I hope he sticks.


Wouldn't mind seeing 3 lefties in the pen long-term here....
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:13 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Masterson wasn't exactly 'sharp' last night.. Hagadone's slider is a nasty thing of beauty.. If he can keep that pitch in the zone while developing his change a wee bit, following Masterson's lead as a bullpen guy to starter would make the VMart trade, already a "win", become a rout.


I still can't see Hags ever going back to the rotation. I was one of his biggest supporters in that role when we first got him, but he's a bullpen guy now, plain and simple. Many scouts questioned the Red Sox ever putting him in a rotation. I think he could end up a closer even in the mold of a Billy Wagner.


Agreed on Hagadone. His days of starting are over. He is a bullpen pitcher and the Indians have no thoughts of making him a starter again. The backend of the bullpen is where he belongs.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Outstanding win over the M's last night. Anytime you can beat the M's on the road with King Felix throwing his A game, you've done something special. Great job by Tomlin and a clutch hit by Hannahan. And a no-drama save by Rage for a change.

Now on to Oakland to face the A's and their .206 team batting average and three right-handed starters going, none of whom have a win yet this year.

Do you think I just jinxed us?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:55 pm

Last night Hernandez had 120 pitches through 8 innings. He did struggle in the 8th. Wedge took him out and lost the game.
Last week, Verlander throws 131 pitches and wins a complete game, despite struggling mightily in the 9th. Leyland left him in.

I'd like to say Leyland's strategy will bite him by the end of the season. But it probably won't.
Before the "Eckersly Era" no SP would let the manager remove him if he were pitching a shutout.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:01 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Outstanding win over the M's last night. Anytime you can beat the M's on the road with King Felix throwing his A game, you've done something special. Great job by Tomlin and a clutch hit by Hannahan. And a no-drama save by Rage for a change.

Now on to Oakland to face the A's and their .206 team batting average and three right-handed starters going, none of whom have a win yet this year.

Do you think I just jinxed us?


Yes...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:55 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Last night Hernandez had 120 pitches through 8 innings. He did struggle in the 8th. Wedge took him out and lost the game.
Last week, Verlander throws 131 pitches and wins a complete game, despite struggling mightily in the 9th. Leyland left him in.

I'd like to say Leyland's strategy will bite him by the end of the season. But it probably won't.
Before the "Eckersly Era" no SP would let the manager remove him if he were pitching a shutout.


Verlander did throw 131 pitches...but he threw 29 in the 9th inning where he gave up a run and nearly blew the game (bases were loaded). He was only at 102 when he entered the 9th. According to ESPN, Hernandez was at 126 after 8 innings, so there's a pretty big difference. He would have been looking at 140, possibly 150 pitches to finish the game. I think Wedge is a terrible manager, but can't fault him for pulling Felix at that point, especially when he had to labor thru that 8th.

Plus it took Leyland and the Tigers 3 tries to get Verlander a W. Opening Day Leyland took Verlander out though after 8 shutout innings and 100+ pitches, only to see his closer blow the save (still won in bot 9th though). In Verlander's 2nd start Leyland let him try and finish the game after 8 shutout innings....Verlander gave up 2 runs and had to get pulled, bullpen let a couple more in and Verlander got the loss. Letting Verlander finish a guy there arguably cost Leyland a win already. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't though in those situations when starters are at that high a pitch count.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:35 pm

Looks like I didn't jinx the Tribe after all. Hannahan just keeps the clutch hits coming. Chiz might as well unpack - he's not going anywhere for a while.

Ubaldo is frustrating to watch, but somehow he held the worst hitting team in the league to 2 runs in 6 innings. Great job by Vinnie and Rage to close it out.

I don't understand Manny not having Kotchman sacrifice in the 9th with runners on 1st and 2nd and nobody out. He did it successfully in the same situation the night before - what changed? We know Kotchman hits a weak ground ball every at-bat, we know he's slow going down the line, so why not have him lay down another bunt and stay out of the double play while possibly moving the runners to 2nd and 3rd with one out? Even if the sacrifice doesn't work we avoid the DP. Instead he swings away against a tough lefty and predictably grounds into a easy DP.

Fortunately Rage nailed down the save, but an insurance run would have been very nice.

Kotchman is totally helpless at the plate right now. Not even a hard foul. He beats everything into the ground.

Brantley has been equally useless, but he had a great at-bat last night against a left reliever where he fell behind 0-2, worked the count full, fouled off a 93-mph fastball on the outside corner, then laced a double into the gap. Maybe that will get him going a little.

Let's see if Jeanmar can avoid getting tossed out of tonight's game.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:30 pm

Regarding Brantley's at bats..his first at bat of the game.. he hit a screaming liner that Reddick tracked down a step from the warning track.. He couldn't hit it much harder than he did.. He put up at least three quality at bats in the game.. As you mentioned.. maybe that will get him going..

K-K trouble.. Both of the Indians special K's have been horrible to start the year... Kotchman has been horrendous.. period.. He just can't hit...hello?..Columbus..tell Matt to consider getting his bags ready... Jason Kipnis needs to make the adjustments.. he's still delivering some run production, but he isn't driving the ball like he should..

Ubaldo seemed to have release point issues with his fastball.. at least twenty of his over 100 pitches were leveraged down and bounced in the dirt around the plate.. It looks like a mechanical issue that should be correctable...

Double H Madness: Hannahan and Hafner are carrying the team right now.. they're gonna need some help..

Onto the next JeanMar start this evening.. If he's commanding the ball like he was in his shortened start in KC, this should be a very entertaining game to watch.. one void of nail biting, perhaps?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Kotchman is totally helpless at the plate right now. Not even a hard foul. He beats everything into the ground.

Brantley has been equally useless, but he had a great at-bat last night against a left reliever where he fell behind 0-2, worked the count full, fouled off a 93-mph fastball on the outside corner, then laced a double into the gap. Maybe that will get him going a little.



That's the Kotchman that Braves fans remember. It's early but he just works himself into bad counts then instead of striking out he hits lifeless grounders. On opening day he had an RBI to 1B which scored the guy because it was hit so weakly. It's early, he'll get his stats up but Indians fans will scratch their heads and say "how did he get them that high?" He has played good 1B and he ain't going anywhere soon.

Brantley should be moved down to 9th as soon as Damon is ready. Brantley's O at lead-off was why the Indians signed Damon not so much Duncan's in left (6 in the batting order).

Also Kippnis is struggling but like I said earlier it's early. 2 hits so far tonight and when he gets going that will help the lineup.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:04 pm

Re: Kotchman

It will be an interesting series when the Angels visit next week. They are not doing as well as expected. Some of the talent not playing full time can lead to bad chemistry. They are also not satisfied with their bullpen. Maybe trade talks could be re-kindled?

Interesting read. http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwy ... 312.column

Worth keeping an eye on it.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:26 am

I like Kipnis batting second. Hopefully they will start batting him higher in the order on a regular basis.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby indians1 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:59 am

i like the idea of

brantley
kipnis
cabrera
santana
hafner
choo
kotchman
hannahan
duncun/damon

the problem is that we don't have much help in the minors. Our farm system is really void of impact players. Our pitching has to hold up because the only pitcher that could possibly help is scott barnes and he isn't lighting it up. We really need to see some big movement from players in the lower levels of our farm system. AAA- chisenhall- high K rate with low BB (not good for projecting to majors) AA- we have nothing. A+- sterling, wolters- off to a bad start (high K rate), Lowery- good OPS but too high of K rate.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:20 pm

...the problem is that we don't have much help in the minors...


I don't see that at all..

The Indians called up two players (Jason Kipnis & Nick Hagadone), traded two (White & Pomeranz) for a F.O.R. SP and replaced them with two others (Chisenhall & LaPorta)..or a net loss of two players from a farm system that was rated in the top third of baseball at the start of the 2011 season. As of this writing.. there are four position players currently in AAA Columbus that are JUST RAKING (Crowe, Phelps Chisenhall & Laporta), two relievers who could step right in and do the job at the ML level (Accardo & Ambriz) and one SP (McAllister & perhaps Kluber) that would be able to fulfill the need as a starter. These guys would seriously impact the Indians needs if injury or lack of production would befall the Tribes efforts. While it's pretty much been determined in the media that the Indians don't have anyone in the upper minors that is ready to move up to the ML squad.. that's not what we're seeing on the field in the early going of the MiLB season..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:57 pm

Good to see Lopez getting a start at first today. I can't stand to watch Kotchman continue to hunch up at the plate and pound the ball into the dirt.

Cunningham gets a start in place of Duncan, who is cooling off lately. He needs to show something because his roster spot is in jeopardy when Damon is ready in about 10 days.

Hafner with an OBP of .490 so far. Absolutely ridiculous. And Choo is pushing .400.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:40 pm

This a terrible lineup and Donald is stinking at short.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:45 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Good to see Lopez getting a start at first today. I can't stand to watch Kotchman continue to hunch up at the plate and pound the ball into the dirt.


Not so good watching Lopez play defense!!

And Donald takes waaaaaaaay too much time throwing the damn ball from short.
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