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Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

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Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:50 am

So the Reds extend Joey Votto for 10 years and $225 million. Good for him. His deal is on par with the Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder deals.

Pujols signed with LA, a very large market where movie stars live.
Fielder signed with the Tigers who have the crazy old owner.

But Cincinnati is a smaller market than Cleveland. FA's don't flock to Cincinnati any more than they do Cleveland. The Reds also don't own there own sports network. In addition to this ground breaking contract, the Reds also have signed a high profile international FA in Aroldis Chapman.

How is this possible? :question
Well, the Reds do have much better attendance than the Indians. But that may be a chicken or the egg thing. If you keep good players - people will come.

Forbes Magazine said the Indians made the most profit last year, (I don't see how that possible. But where there's smoke,,,,)

What excuse is left for the Indians organization to use not to compete?

Progressive Field is now 500 feet from a casino. Cleveland is slowly turning around, and the old excuses do not work.

Ownership must do some strong introspection today. If they want to stay as owners, then a stronger effort must be made to find minority partners.


(I have resisted a thread like this for a long time. But with today's news, I had to say it.)
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby daingean » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:53 am

The Votto deal could be a game changer but we really won't see anything until a few of our guys reach the FA cycle. From the sounds of it Asdrubal is being extended. We don't really know who the FO pursued this off season on both the FA and trade market but rumors indicated they may have offered Beltran a nice deal. In reality, this team doesn't attract FA unless the FA's don't really have any nice options (i.e. Wheeler or Kotchman) so the important thing is building through the draft and foreign FA's. By all indications the FO has done a better job drafting the past few years (but burned 2 of our top FA pitchers for Ubaldo) and also in the foreign markets but the truth of this will be known in 3-4 years.

Votto was a Reds player who was extended. The Reds didn't attract him via the FA market. But in reality the FO has been reluctant to sign players to long term contracts since the Hafner deal. Also we shall see how this affects the Reds with guys like Phillips and Bruce (especially if it turns out bad for them). Once your hand is burnt, you will become more reluctant to put your hand back in the fire.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Votto is my favorite non Tribe player but 10 yrs. is too much for anyone. The only one currently in the org that would even merit consideration is Lindor, IMO, and only because he's so young. Votto's last year under this contract is his age 37 season. Maybe $22.5 million won't be that big of a deal then, although I hope that that is not the case, but you can't be worth that contract with diminishing skills(ask Hafner) or sitting on the DL(ask Grady). Or better yet, ask the Tribe fans if those guys have been worth it.

I don't favor getting into these stupid situations again. No problem with big money, short term contracts, if you can get guys to sign them. That's the problem.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Votto is my favorite non Tribe player but 10 yrs. is too much for anyone. The only one currently in the org that would even merit consideration is Lindor, IMO, and only because he's so young. Votto's last year under this contract is his age 37 season. Maybe $22.5 million won't be that big of a deal then, although I hope that that is not the case, but you can't be worth that contract with diminishing skills(ask Hafner) or sitting on the DL(ask Grady). Or better yet, ask the Tribe fans if those guys have been worth it.

I don't favor getting into these stupid situations again. No problem with big money, short term contracts, if you can get guys to sign them. That's the problem.


Yeah, while this may engergize fans in Cincy I agree this seems way too long a deal. Votto likely will be making more than a quarter of the Reds total payroll for the duration of this contract. Putting that much into one player is never the best idea. Teams like the Red Sox, Yanks, and Phillies can afford $20M plus deals because they are able to continue to spend. I question just how much more the Reds will be able to spend and extend players. Already sounds like Phillips may be a lost cause at re-signing according to reports. They are really gonna need some young infielders to step up.

Colorado (similar type of market) gave Todd Helton a huge $141M deal back in 2003. sure they won the Wild Card a couple times but since 2005 just hasn't been worth that big deal. Was good short-term, but long-term really put some financial strains on how the Rockies were able to spend. Injuries hurt him, but that's the risk you run with a huge deal like this.


I definitely think the Indians need to consider opening the pockets some. No, they don't need $200M deals but teams are spending more, and with the draft being capped off now, gotta spend the money somewhere.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:32 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Votto's last year under this contract is his age 37 season. Maybe $22.5 million won't be that big of a deal then, although I hope that that is not the case, but you can't be worth that contract with diminishing skills(ask Hafner) or sitting on the DL(ask Grady). Or better yet, ask the Tribe fans if those guys have been worth it.

Actually, it's worse than that. This isn't a new contract that replaces Votto's existing one, it's an extension that won't start until the end of his deal that runs through 2013. The Reds are now contractually bound to Joey Votto for 12 years at a total cost of $251.5 million. They will now pay him an average salary over $20 million through the age of 39. I think Votto's a great player, but a contract like this can't possibly turn out well for a mid/small market team, and there's already talk of how they'll have to cut costs around him. As much as I wish the Indians would spend more on payroll, I'd be horrified if they gave anyone a similar contract.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:13 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Votto's last year under this contract is his age 37 season. Maybe $22.5 million won't be that big of a deal then, although I hope that that is not the case, but you can't be worth that contract with diminishing skills(ask Hafner) or sitting on the DL(ask Grady). Or better yet, ask the Tribe fans if those guys have been worth it.

Actually, it's worse than that. This isn't a new contract that replaces Votto's existing one, it's an extension that won't start until the end of his deal that runs through 2013. The Reds are now contractually bound to Joey Votto for 12 years at a total cost of $251.5 million. They will now pay him an average salary over $20 million through the age of 39. I think Votto's a great player, but a contract like this can't possibly turn out well for a mid/small market team, and there's already talk of how they'll have to cut costs around him. As much as I wish the Indians would spend more on payroll, I'd be horrified if they gave anyone a similar contract.

Thanks for clarifying that Pork Chop. I can see how the Reds think that they needed to do this despite the problems you pointed out. Maybe Votto is as beloved as Thome would have been as a career Indian & be a draw all by himself. It's going to take someone a lot smarter than me to figure out how the small fry franchises can compete going forward, especially after the new caps on Draft spending.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:14 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Maybe Votto is as beloved as Thome would have been as a career Indian & be a draw all by himself. It's going to take someone a lot smarter than me to figure out how the small fry franchises can compete going forward, especially after the new caps on Draft spending.


Never say never with Votto being a big draw, but the Reds only finished in the top 15 in attendance once after they traded for/signed Ken Griffey Jr to a 9 year/$112M deal prior to the 2000 season (2003 they were 13th). A truely homegrown kid from Cincy.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:23 am

Game changer? I doubt it will have any effect on the Indians at all. What are they going to - give somebody $200 million just because the Reds did it?

Even if the Tribe develops an MVP they won't offer that kind of a deal. I don't think they would ever go beyond five years, even for a Cy Young or MVP.
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Re: Is Votto deal a game changer for Indians?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:31 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Game changer? I doubt it will have any effect on the Indians at all. What are they going to - give somebody $200 million just because the Reds did it?

Even if the Tribe develops an MVP they won't offer that kind of a deal. I don't think they would ever go beyond five years, even for a Cy Young or MVP.


This is the key. From what I understand the Tribe doesn't want to (or won't) go beyound 4 guaranteed years with a pitcher even (thought CC's max offer was 4 years and option for a 5th), and with a position player they won't go past 5 gauranteed (see Jim Thome). Tribe isn't the only team with a philosophy like this. Blue Jays also have a policy of not going past 5 years with free agents (at least with AA).
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