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2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:51 am

Prosecutor wrote:Brantley hit leadoff last year so he had the Tribe's best run producers coming up when he got on base. Kotchman had the most at-bats in the 7th position, followed closely by 5th and 6th, so he had the bottom of Tampa's lineup coming up when he got on base. That should be factored in to the run scoring percentage.

That being said, Kotchman's career OBP is .336, so if Brantley stays healthy he should match or exceed that.


If it was just last year then stats can be an anomaly but it's an 8 year trend for Kotchman. Plus Kotchman played on a play-off team and in a hitters park. 20% run scoring is extremely low (even for catchers). And lack of speed is a factor for guys hitting behind him as pitchers are not really concerned with him running and thus not affecting how hitters behind him are attacked (plus defenders are not out of position as much by holding on a runner or thinking of covering).
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:26 pm

daingean wrote:If it was just last year then stats can be an anomaly but it's an 8 year trend for Kotchman. Plus Kotchman played on a play-off team and in a hitters park. 20% run scoring is extremely low (even for catchers). And lack of speed is a factor for guys hitting behind him as pitchers are not really concerned with him running and thus not affecting how hitters behind him are attacked (plus defenders are not out of position as much by holding on a runner or thinking of covering).


Since 2007 Kotchman has only once had an OBP lower than .325 (2010). 2010 was more the anomaly than last year IMO. Had a solid 2009 in Atlanta too with an OBP over .350 prior to being delt to Boston (wheels fell off there and continued to Seattle the following season). Take out his short stint in Boston and his 2010 season (which combined was fewer PAs than his 2011 season) and his career OBP jumps all the way up to .349. Not great but solid. Also, 2011 wasn't even Kotchman's best year as a Major Leaguer, which is being overlooked by some people.

Fukudome hit leadoff some for us last year. Yes, he's faster than Kotchman but don't think any pitchers were worried about him stealing or pitched to hitters any differently.

I get what you're saying with fielders and pitchers being a bit different with slower guys on base...but again, would rather have a guy at least on base versus bases empty. Pitcher out of the stretch vs windup is a bigger difference than how a pitcher will pitch with a slow vs fast guy on base. Plus it's not like there's anyone on the team right now that really would scare a pitcher with their basestealing skills. Hell, old-man Abreu would have led the Indians in steals last year with his 21....

And speaking of Abreu...wonder where he'd hit in the Tribe lineup (though sounds like that deal may be dead). I think a case for leadoff or at worst the 2-hole is legit. .350 OBP last year and for those that still care about speed at the top, did manage to swipe 21 bases (caught 5 times)...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:29 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
No, what you don't want are guys at the top of the lineup with poor OBP skills. I get most people on here are stuck in the old way of thinking about baseball and how to make a lineup card...but thru decades of research there are better ways. based off Kotchaman's OBP, wOBA, and SLG (or lack of) from last year, the best spot for him is actually leadoff. Tribe's lineup would score the most runs (in theory). Obviously if you think that Kotchman will fall flat this year or a guy like Brantley will finally get an OBP over .310 or so then guess you can argue for someone like him there. But using speed/base running as a means to decide who should hit leadoff? hmm, not sure about that one...

Can see why some still cling to the old way of thinking you need speed at the top of the lineup though. Acta obviously agrees with you too.


I think you are focusing too much on the micro with Kotchman and his on-base percentage and not looking at the macro (fact is he does not score runs). I think you are assuming that just getting on-base will lead to more runs scored but that is not always the case as some guys just don't have the instincts to score (as based on his 8 years of stats). Not being able to score from 1st on a double or 2nd on a single will affect runs scored. Don't take my argument for a basis of Brantley at lead-off but more as a comparison as to the difference in these 2 guys... Brantley scored 63 runs (40.1% of the time he got on base) while Kotchman scored 44 runs (20.6%). So Brantley scored more runs (almost 50% more) while getting on base less times. Why because speed (ability to take the extra base when it's there) and because he provided guys behind him a chance to see more fastballs which Kotchman doesn't. Kotchman doesn't score runs because #1 he's a poor base runner (not just speed but poor instincts on the base paths) and because he doesn't affect the pitcher like even an average major league base runner does so pitchers don't change the way they attack hitters when they are on base.


I will give you that a reason Kotchman isn't a big run scorer is because he's slow.

However, an even bigger reason is because he tends to hit 6th or 7th and when he's on base has the 2 or 3 worst hitters in the lineup trying to knock him in. You don't expect too many 7-hole hitters to score a lot of runs even if they are quick.

Scoring runs is mostly out of the control of the player on base's hands. Kotchman can't knock himself in.

If you put guys like Cabrera, Santana and Choo behind Kotchman, I don't care how slow he is he'll score 80+ runs if he can keep his OBP over .350.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:31 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Brantley hit leadoff last year so he had the Tribe's best run producers coming up when he got on base. Kotchman had the most at-bats in the 7th position, followed closely by 5th and 6th, so he had the bottom of Tampa's lineup coming up when he got on base. That should be factored in to the run scoring percentage.

That being said, Kotchman's career OBP is .336, so if Brantley stays healthy he should match or exceed that.


I absolutely, positively hope you are right here....but Brantley has not shown that he has the consistent ability to get on base at a .336 clip even when healthy. That's a pretty bold statement.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:44 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Brantley hit leadoff last year so he had the Tribe's best run producers coming up when he got on base. Kotchman had the most at-bats in the 7th position, followed closely by 5th and 6th, so he had the bottom of Tampa's lineup coming up when he got on base. That should be factored in to the run scoring percentage.

That being said, Kotchman's career OBP is .336, so if Brantley stays healthy he should match or exceed that.


I absolutely, positively hope you are right here....but Brantley has not shown that he has the consistent ability to get on base at a .336 clip even when healthy. That's a pretty bold statement.


I understand your argument about batting 7th but he's hit there for a reason. If Brantley has a .315 OBP and Kotchman has a .336 OBP, I will still say that Brantley outscores Kotchman in the same situation. I think your underestimating the affect that an average base runner has on how a pitcher attacks a hitter. I'd rather have Brantley at the top of the order (but 9th isn't bad either if a legitimate table setter is at lead off) because with him on base Choo, Asdrubal, Santana, and Hafner will see more fastballs than if Kotchman is on base. Heck I think Hafner will see more fastballs with Santana on base than Kotchman.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:59 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Brantley hit leadoff last year so he had the Tribe's best run producers coming up when he got on base. Kotchman had the most at-bats in the 7th position, followed closely by 5th and 6th, so he had the bottom of Tampa's lineup coming up when he got on base. That should be factored in to the run scoring percentage.

That being said, Kotchman's career OBP is .336, so if Brantley stays healthy he should match or exceed that.


I absolutely, positively hope you are right here....but Brantley has not shown that he has the consistent ability to get on base at a .336 clip even when healthy. That's a pretty bold statement.


I understand your argument about batting 7th but he's hit there for a reason. If Brantley has a .315 OBP and Kotchman has a .336 OBP, I will still say that Brantley outscores Kotchman in the same situation. I think your underestimating the affect that an average base runner has on how a pitcher attacks a hitter. I'd rather have Brantley at the top of the order (but 9th isn't bad either if a legitimate table setter is at lead off) because with him on base Choo, Asdrubal, Santana, and Hafner will see more fastballs than if Kotchman is on base. Heck I think Hafner will see more fastballs with Santana on base than Kotchman.


If Kotchman was hitting leadoff, it'd be impossible for Hafner to be up with Kotchman on 1st base. Nitpicky I know. I don't disagree with anything else you said about seeing more fastballs....but you are ignoring the fact that having guys on base more in front of your run producers is the real issue. I'd rather see Cabrera, Choo, Santana come up with guys on base more often than worrying about the speed of that guy on base. I do disagree strongly that Brantley would score more runs from the leadoff spot if he's putting up an OBP over 20 pts lower, especially if you have three 20+ HR guys hitting behind him.

If Kotchman is only putting up a .336 OBP then ok. Still would be a better 2-hole fit than 7 but would agree he shouldn't hit leadoff. But if he comes close to the .370 OBP that he has twice put up? Must hit in front of guys like Santana, Choo, etc then. You're also vastly overrating how much he'd "slow" down runners by being on base. Unless you think he will keep guys from Cabrera from turning doubles into triples, or singles into doubles, he won't slow people down really at all.


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here though...


Will say this....brantley did have a very good April last year. Believe his OBP was over .370...IF he can come close to that and maintain it over a full season, I'd like to see him leading off....though still say Kotchman is better in the 2-hole in that scenario than 6th/7th. Can lead to plenty of hit-n-run opportunties. Kotchman gets a lot of groundball hits..having a guy like Brantley on first could create a big hole for him. I simply worry that Brantley won't get on base enough to create that hole a lot though.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:38 pm

The Phillies are interested in re-acquiring Jason Donald as a fix for their INF problems. The Indians, or course, said no way. He's big part of our roster now.

Jason Donald could be replaced by 4 different people in the organization. We couldn't make an attractive package with Donald to exchange for Domonic Brown?

I'm starting to loose patience before opening day. A new record.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:40 pm

With no one ready to step in at SS if something happens with Acab, a lousy hitting Hanny, another retread (who looks ready to truly rebound IMO) in Lopez, no back up CF, a green 2B (though I surly hope this isnt an issue, if it is we are doomed) traded Donald would be pretty reckless. Not saying he is untouchable but without having a true back-up SS/2B riding the pine if he were to leave - that would be a mess.

I have been baffled by how the indians have handled themselves this off-season/ST. I don't know how anyone could give them a higher grade then a D (I give them an F+) for this off-season. Have to think many in the industry think they are a bunch of clowns right now.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:12 pm

If Wheeler has earned a spot I am a horse ____.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:37 pm

Hermie,

If Kotchman had the OBP consistency and power of Nick Johnson circa 2005-09, then yes, I would say he would fit as a #2 hitter. But Casey's 2011 OBP was fueled by a BABIP of .335; he ain't getting that lucky again. He's a singles hitter who has a little bit of pop, can take a walk, and usually makes contact. But he has little speed, bottom of the order power, and probably doesn't know a thing about bunting. If you want him standing at first waiting for someone to hit a homer, fine. I want guys at the top of the l/u who can create runs scored using a few more tools than Kotchman possesses.

We're also not likely to see Cabrera hit 20+ HRs this season; all the more reason to have some speed in front of him. He does have doubles power and Brantley has 1st to home speed. If Brantley struggles with OBP, we move him to 9th and Cabrera to leadoff, Choo or Kipnis 2nd....or Kipnis leading off, Cabrera second. All these guys run better, have more extra-base hit ability, and will create more runs than Casey Kotchman.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:52 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The Phillies are interested in re-acquiring Jason Donald as a fix for their INF problems. The Indians, or course, said no way. He's big part of our roster now.

Jason Donald could be replaced by 4 different people in the organization. We couldn't make an attractive package with Donald to exchange for Domonic Brown?

I'm starting to loose patience before opening day. A new record.


There are 4 different people that can replace Jason on the roster: Juan Diaz, Lopez/Phelps, Pie but it would take 4 roster spots when we only have 1 or 2 (Lopez looks to make the team). Not ready to see Donald go because I think he'll be valuable and I'm beginning to worry about Dominic as a MLer.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:46 pm

I'm not sure I would call Lopez a retread. He is less than a year older than Donald and is only two seasons removed from a 25 home run 42 double season. He did have a pretty bad season last year, but if he can rebound he has the ability to turn into a steal. He may even be a better third base option than Hannahan.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby artgold » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:57 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:The Phillies are interested in re-acquiring Jason Donald as a fix for their INF problems. The Indians, or course, said no way. He's big part of our roster now.

Jason Donald could be replaced by 4 different people in the organization. We couldn't make an attractive package with Donald to exchange for Domonic Brown?

I'm starting to loose patience before opening day. A new record.


I had speculated on this earlier in this thread, and I wouldn't be so fast to turn them down. I'd like starting pitcher prospect Jon Pettibone in a deal with the Phillies.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:15 am

Lopez has five errors in spring training. No way I want him at 2B or SS.

I don't think the Indians have given a thought to batting Kotchman leadoff or 2nd, so the argument is moot. Interesting discussion, though. I pimped for Kotchman to hit leadoff a couple of months back. My argument was based on the fact that Brantley took considerably more strikes than the average player last year. He was clearly trying to work the pitcher for walks, which is what a leadoff hitter is supposed to do. But it often put him behind in the count and hurt his production. I argued that batting him 7th and letting him swing at the first good pitch he sees is what he needs to jumpstart his career.

We'll never know.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:18 pm

Chiefroy wrote:Hermie,

If Kotchman had the OBP consistency and power of Nick Johnson circa 2005-09, then yes, I would say he would fit as a #2 hitter. But Casey's 2011 OBP was fueled by a BABIP of .335; he ain't getting that lucky again. He's a singles hitter who has a little bit of pop, can take a walk, and usually makes contact. But he has little speed, bottom of the order power, and probably doesn't know a thing about bunting. If you want him standing at first waiting for someone to hit a homer, fine. I want guys at the top of the l/u who can create runs scored using a few more tools than Kotchman possesses.

We're also not likely to see Cabrera hit 20+ HRs this season; all the more reason to have some speed in front of him. He does have doubles power and Brantley has 1st to home speed. If Brantley struggles with OBP, we move him to 9th and Cabrera to leadoff, Choo or Kipnis 2nd....or Kipnis leading off, Cabrera second. All these guys run better, have more extra-base hit ability, and will create more runs than Casey Kotchman.


We tried Cabrera in the leadoff spot before, I highly doubt Acta would try that again. Cabrera is not an OBP guy so he doesn't fit the leadoff spot. As pointed out Kotchman "only" has a career OBP of .336....well Cabrera put up a .332 OBP last year in one of his best offensive seasons ever.

You also pointed out Kotchman had a .335 BABIP...I agree that's likely to come down, but he posted a .306 one before and been around .290 in the past. Should still be able to put up a .350+ OBP like he did in Atlanta prior to being dealt to Boston. And back to Cabrera...the year he had a very good OBP (.361 in 2009) he posted an insane .360 BABIP.

Basically what all this discussion comes down to is the Tribe really does not have a leadoff hitter, or at least not an ideal one....not yet anyways.

You can say Kotchman has "bottom of the order power" and you wouldn't really be wrong...I say he has top of the order power, aka, not much. Did Omar not have enough power to hit 2nd either then? Disagree that you need power to hit in the 2-hole (though it's nice). You say Cabrera isn't going to hit 20 HRs again but want him there....well Kotchman can hit double-digit HRs, in a full year would be on pace for about 12-15. What's the difference between that and what you're projecting Cabrera at then?


I actually think we can see Cabrera hit 25 HRs again. Personally would rather see him focus on getting on base more but don't think the power he showed was a mirage. I felt though that in the 2nd half he was lookign to hit a HR more than in the 1st half. Cabrera was at his best in 2009 IMO when he was choking up and just getting on base. I'm hoping he can almost combine the two approaches, the one he showed in 2009 and the one last year. Be aggresive early in the count like Orlando told him to be and try and drive the ball....but with 2 strikes still look to choke up and look to get on base.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:36 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Lopez has five errors in spring training. No way I want him at 2B or SS.


I wouldn't want him at short, but Lopez has been a pretty solid defensive 2B throughout his career. Never a gold glover but wouldn't look too much into the errors this spring.

Hoping he does make the club as I think we'll need to see Donald in the outfield more than the infield and would be nice to have that extra infielder. And really no other infielder has stepped up. Could be an ok option to keep around til Chiz is ready too (bumping Hanny to utility role).
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:37 pm

Gomez wins the 5th rotation spot, and Slowey optioned to AAA. Surprised but very glad. Good to see too that the hip injury isn't a concern.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:09 pm

Hermie, it is not about hitting home runs for the Indians. It's all about less K's, more BB's, better on base percentage and scoring more runs for all 12 position players. They ALL must improve in these 3 critical areas for this team to improve their ability to score runs. We need to get from 707 runs scored to 835-850 to contend.

Even though I was against Abreu, one interesting stat for him over the years is he walks a bunch. Last year 78 times, which would have put him in top 3-5 on our team. His walk to K ratio has always been above average.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:38 pm

Final roster spots "official" now:
• Jairo Asencio in the bullpen.
• Jose Lopez backup infielder.
• Aaron Cunningham backup outfielder.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:43 pm

After what Ubaldo did today...wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended 5 games.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:45 pm

Hermie13 wrote:After what Ubaldo did today...wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended 5 games.


Me too - seriously what a jerk......... Ubaldo sure is doing everything he can to alienate his fan base, that was a crappy move on his part. He really doesn't want to be here it seems like. I hope he is able to put a solid season together this year - but I just don't see it, though they would never admit it to the public I bet the FO would LOVE to undo this trade. Imagine having White in the bullpen (or still a SP possibly) and Pomeranz this season. Oh well it is what it is....
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:18 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:After what Ubaldo did today...wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended 5 games.


Me too - seriously what a jerk......... Ubaldo sure is doing everything he can to alienate his fan base, that was a crappy move on his part. He really doesn't want to be here it seems like. I hope he is able to put a solid season together this year - but I just don't see it, though they would never admit it to the public I bet the FO would LOVE to undo this trade. Imagine having White in the bullpen (or still a SP possibly) and Pomeranz this season. Oh well it is what it is....


He's actually stated he loves it here. Whether that's true or not... you decide.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:59 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:After what Ubaldo did today...wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended 5 games.


Me too - seriously what a jerk......... Ubaldo sure is doing everything he can to alienate his fan base, that was a crappy move on his part. He really doesn't want to be here it seems like. I hope he is able to put a solid season together this year - but I just don't see it, though they would never admit it to the public I bet the FO would LOVE to undo this trade. Imagine having White in the bullpen (or still a SP possibly) and Pomeranz this season. Oh well it is what it is....


He's actually stated he loves it here. Whether that's true or not... you decide.


Yeah, he actually called Cleveland "heaven"....

Probably more that he just is mad at Colorado and would have said that about anywhere but he hasn't shown any indications that he is upset in Cleveland.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby allhailshapiro » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:14 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:After what Ubaldo did today...wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended 5 games.


Me too - seriously what a jerk......... Ubaldo sure is doing everything he can to alienate his fan base, that was a crappy move on his part. He really doesn't want to be here it seems like. I hope he is able to put a solid season together this year - but I just don't see it, though they would never admit it to the public I bet the FO would LOVE to undo this trade. Imagine having White in the bullpen (or still a SP possibly) and Pomeranz this season. Oh well it is what it is....


Ubaldo is upset because Tulowitzki threw him under the bus in an article a week or two ago out in Denver. Essentially aired his issues with Ubaldo through the media instead of talking to Ubaldo. Now, I have never heard Ubaldo make a comment to the media about any issues with Tulowitzki, so for him to go using the media to bash Ubaldo... well, I consider that crossing the line and the price for crossing the line with a pitcher is to get drilled.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:04 am

Didn't Jose Mesa hit Omar in a spring training game the first time they faced each other after Omar accused Jose of choking away the '97 World Series?
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:36 am

The game of baseball takes care of itself. Heck, guys use to get drilled all the time. Give us an entire pitching staff who have the courage to pitch inside. Regarding Ubaldo, if he did it before, he can do it again. Assuming there is no arm or shoulder injury, he might just be trying to hard, over throwing. Over the years many pitchers have slumped and comeback to be winners again.

According to Lou Marson, Ubaldo needs to trim back his assortment of pitches from 5 to 3 which would allow him to throw more strikes. Marson says his four seam fastball hits 94 or better all the time and he needs to throw it more often versus his two seam fastball. As long as Ubaldo is healthy he will eventually find it again. He's a competitor and wants to do well.

As far as hitting Twolo, not a big deal. Keep pitching inside it will all work out.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:36 pm

One saving grace for Ubaldo here may be that Tulo did take a step towards the mound first and appeared to say something, which then prompted the chest bump and Ubaldo heading towards the plate. Working against him though is the fact that Bud Selig was actually in attendance of the game (ouch). With the off-day on Friday we should be ok even if he gets a 5-game suspension.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:42 pm

With the way Tulo reacted.. every club in the NL will now be pitching him tight... While it may not be under his chin, the pitches will be up and they will be inside... When you have a hot head in the batters box.. you let that hot head react and get thrown out of the game.. Tulo turned into the ball that was tailing in from just off the inside corner toward him in the RH batters box. He should have been hit.. The bad blood nonsense..is just that..nonsense..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:42 pm

Ubaldo suspended 5 games. Starts Thursday....could appeal. If he can get the appeal to last past Saturday, may not really miss a start at all.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:32 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:With the way Tulo reacted.. every club in the NL will now be pitching him tight... While it may not be under his chin, the pitches will be up and they will be inside... When you have a hot head in the batters box.. you let that hot head react and get thrown out of the game.. Tulo turned into the ball that was tailing in from just off the inside corner toward him in the RH batters box. He should have been hit.. The bad blood nonsense..is just that..nonsense..



You really believe Ubaldo DIDN'T mean to plunk him? I don't know what you were watching but he totally 100% did that on purpose.

Just off the corner? Time to go to the optometrist.

As far as Tulo's reaction, THERE IS BAD BLOOD between the 2. Lucky for him he was able to temper his reaction enough to keep himself from getting suspended
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:20 am

So Ubaldo misses his first start. Big deal. They should leave him in Arizona for another week to work on his mechanics. He could use the time as he does not appear to be ready. There's no problem with going Masterson/Tomlin/Lowe/Gomez/Masterson for the first give games.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:59 pm

A little surprised by the Neal DFA. Grady to the 60-day DL is unfortunate but foreseen.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ClevelandBlues » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:A little surprised by the Neal DFA. Grady to the 60-day DL is unfortunate but foreseen.


I am a little surprised by that also. We had better hope no more outfielders get hurt. We have Carrera, maybe Spillborghs and then ?. There is a good chance no one will claim him though, and I am not sure he would be ready to contribute at the major league level yet anyway.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:51 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:A little surprised by the Neal DFA. Grady to the 60-day DL is unfortunate but foreseen.


I am a little surprised by that also. We had better hope no more outfielders get hurt. We have Carrera, maybe Spillborghs and then ?. There is a good chance no one will claim him though, and I am not sure he would be ready to contribute at the major league level yet anyway.



also surpised but not shocked - hasn't really shown much since he came over in the Ocab trade. Young and has some potential - a team might take a chance on him, assuming there is interest. Believe the tribe would love to turn this into a trade for "cash considerations" if they can.

OR if he clears, he would be an ideal canidate to complete a deal for Abreu
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:59 pm

I fail to see why Corey Kluber continues to escape the 40-man cuts. If he makes one appearance in Cleveland this year, it will be a sure sign that season became a disaster.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:03 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
ClevelandBlues wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:A little surprised by the Neal DFA. Grady to the 60-day DL is unfortunate but foreseen.


I am a little surprised by that also. We had better hope no more outfielders get hurt. We have Carrera, maybe Spillborghs and then ?. There is a good chance no one will claim him though, and I am not sure he would be ready to contribute at the major league level yet anyway.



also surpised but not shocked - hasn't really shown much since he came over in the Ocab trade. Young and has some potential - a team might take a chance on him, assuming there is interest. Believe the tribe would love to turn this into a trade for "cash considerations" if they can.

OR if he clears, he would be an ideal canidate to complete a deal for Abreu


Not sure about that. If he clears waivers I'd rather keep him in AAA to see if he can get healthy and bounce back. Dealing him after he clears waivers for Abreu just means you have to DFA yet another player to get Abreu on the roster.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:09 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:I fail to see why Corey Kluber continues to escape the 40-man cuts. If he makes one appearance in Cleveland this year, it will be a sure sign that season became a disaster.


Disagree on that. While Kluber struggled in the roation last year, he still has a good arm and could make a solid reliever. He had a rough 2011 in AAA, but did strike out 10 guys per 9 in 2009 at AA. With the losses of Judy, Putnam, and a lesser extent Burns, we could use a guy like Kluber as a depth bullpen option IMO. Even last year in AAA when he struggled Kluber struck you 8.5 per 9. Not too shabby. Needs to get the walks down obviously (over 4 per 9) but think he deserves to stick around on the roster.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:56 am

Unfortunately, it takes more than a high K-rate to be a good pitcher. Kluber's had a high K-rate throughout his career. He's also been a lousy pitcher throughout his career. Corey Kluber replacements are available on the waiver wire or free agency every single day. The organization is still deep in relief options. They aren't deep in outfield options. DFA'ing outfielders is poor logic.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:44 am

Kluber is still considered ML depth....and may get a shot at some point this season in a starter or relief role. I'm not big on him, but I also want to see what he does early on this season. There was a lot going on behind the scenes with him last year which affected things, and the Indians flat out told me he has the best stuff of anyone that pitched in Triple-A last year (i.e. better than Gomez/Huff/etc). I think he will be a DFA candidate later in the year if he struggles, but for now they want to see him through.

I am surprised though on Neal. They were kind of in a roster crunch, but I may have strongly considered DFAing someone like Juan Diaz. A guy like Gregorio Petit showed this spring that Juan Diaz's can be found at any time. Not surprised they did not DFA Weglarz......he looks good this spring and they want to see what he does if healthy.
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