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2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:21 pm

Pagnozzi giving Marson some batting tips. Donald making solid contact. Gotta love spring training!
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Early in today's game against the Dbax.. Ubaldo sitting at 90-92 on his fastball.. occasionally touching 94.. He was throwing a LOT of change ups.. Made it through 3 innings with his pitch count & Manny removed him with a 2-1 lead...

-Russ Canzler can flat out hit.. he barrels the ball and hit's rocket shots..

-In the second inning.. Jason Donald led off and smoked a single up the middle for a single.. He should lead off more often and, perhaps always when there is a lefty on the hill for the opposition...

back to the game...

-Cunningham really put a charge into that double.. smoked it off the wall in RF.. at Progressive, that would have been out of the park.. and it was against a lefty...

-Smith and Pestano.. 2 IP, 1 hit, 1 walk and four k's.. pretty damn impressive.. especially the way Pestano mowed em down after giving up the hit and the walk..wow..

-Dan Wheeler isn't showing anybody that he's an option for the pen in 2012..

-Hagadone just dominated in his first inning.. just blowing his running fastball by guys.. the few times the batters got wood on the pitch.. it was weak... Hagadone on for his second inning.. while Ross Atkins is the next interviewee during the broadcast. (btw.. Underwood and Manning appear to be a bit miffed with each other..).. Hags gives up a single to Owings and then a bunt single with Chisenhall not using the barehand put runners at first and second with one down.. one out later.. runners at first and third, two down.. and Hags slams the door.. very nice outing.. The Indians may begin to see this kid has the ability to go more than one inning ala Justin Masterson and or Daniel Bard.. same mold..

-Nice defensive play by Jose Lopez with the weak foul pop up off Hagadone's last pitch during his first inning of work, btw..

-Spirited effort to manufacture a run in the top of the ninth by the dbax.. Maybe Manny saw that and may give that a whirl in games against teams not named the Rangers.. Tomorrow, the Yu Darvish carnival comes to Goodyear.. wooot !!..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:41 am

I watched the first five innings of the D-Backs game but didn't know what to make of it. After Saunders got knocked out by Santana's line drive in the 1st inning they brought in a minor league pitcher, and that's who the Tribe scored their runs off of.

I'm not that impressed by hits off guys that pitched in AA last year.

Even if a major league pitcher is throwing, you don't know if he's trying to get outs or just working on fine-tuning specific pitches.

Speaking of fine-tuning, looks like Ubaldo still has some work to do. With it looking more and more like Roberto Hernandez will be back this year, that gives us two starters who routinely throw 100 pitches in five innings of work. Not sure I can take two guys like that on the same staff. It makes me really appreciate Tomlin, who just pounds the zone and keeps the game moving.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:56 am

Well.. an amazing and wonderful thing happened in the desert yesterday afternoon.. One of the SP's guaranteed a spot in the starting rotation didn't suck !!.. Derek Lowe with a fine outing over four innings pitched. The one run he surrendered was kind of typical of spring training: a walk followed by an infield ground out (runner advancing two bases to 3B on the play) and another ground out to score the run.. For lack of a better way of putting it, MORE PFP!!! (that is, if a runner is on first base..and a ball is hit to the first baseman who tosses to the pitcher covering.. the pitcher needs to turn around and make sure he knows where the runner is.. DUH !)

The best results from the game was the effectiveness & efficiency of Scotty Barnes.. Three innings pitched.. no walks and four K's. Of course, by that time of the game, almost all of the SF Giant regulars had departed the game and were getting in 9 holes at TPC Scottsdale..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:31 pm

So I hear the Indians have re-acquired Kelvin De La Cruz. For cash no less. How about that?
I have no problem with it. Obviously the Indians know him better than anybody. Might make a jump this year if recovered and healthy.



Also, I have a wild idea. Whenever I read about the prospects, especially pitching prospects the Indians have, it makes me think all they need is coaching and experience to make it. But to get experience, you need innings. And here are only so many games.
With so many pitching prospects at about the A level, could, would, the Indians make an agreement with the Lake Erie Crushers? Opinions, please.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:So I hear the Indians have re-acquired Kelvin De La Cruz. For cash no less. How about that?
I have no problem with it. Obviously the Indians know him better than anybody. Might make a jump this year if recovered and healthy.



Also, I have a wild idea. Whenever I read about the prospects, especially pitching prospects the Indians have, it makes me think all they need is coaching and experience to make it. But to get experience, you need innings. And here are only so many games.
With so many pitching prospects at about the A level, could, would, the Indians make an agreement with the Lake Erie Crushers? Opinions, please.

Really like getting back KDLC. We need to keep the guys with real ML potential/talent.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:So I hear the Indians have re-acquired Kelvin De La Cruz. For cash no less. How about that?
I have no problem with it. Obviously the Indians know him better than anybody. Might make a jump this year if recovered and healthy.



Also, I have a wild idea. Whenever I read about the prospects, especially pitching prospects the Indians have, it makes me think all they need is coaching and experience to make it. But to get experience, you need innings. And here are only so many games.
With so many pitching prospects at about the A level, could, would, the Indians make an agreement with the Lake Erie Crushers? Opinions, please.

Really like getting back KDLC. We need to keep the guys with real ML potential/talent.


I like having KDLC back too. As for all of our pitching prospects with lack of innings to go around, I think the bigger issue is getting and keeping them healthy. I know it's frustrating but I bet if you look around closely at the other 29 teams you will see teams have pitchers with sore elbows and arms.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:44 pm

A few thoughts on spring training so far. Canzler and Lopez are playing like they want a roster spot. It looks like Canzler might be a steal. Laporta isn't doing himself any favors so far. Choo looks a lot better than he did last year. He seems to be hitting the ball with more authority. It is nice to see Weglarz healthy and playing. Jeanmar Gomez has pitched well this spring also. I could see him sticking in the rotation at some point this year. I was also glad to hear we got DeLaCruz back. A team can never have too many hard throwing lefthanders.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:17 pm

It was tweeted by Jim Bowden of ESPN.com that the Indians were looking for a LF. But were not interested in Johnny Damon due to his lackluster defense.
Sheez, compared to some of the alternative (Duncan, Canzler) Damon would look like a ballerina.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:22 am

I'm a big fan of De La Cruz the man, so with that I am happy to see him back. Was strange to see him suddenly in minor league camp today. That being said, I made an offhand comment to a scout in attendance for the minor league spring games that the Indians got him back and he sort of rolled his eyes at me and said "why bother". It is a nice reunion and all, but I tend to agree and I also think he may be DFAed later this spring if a roster spot is needed for Jose Lopez or for someone like Ryan Spilborghs or any of the last bullpen options.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:14 am

Tony, you tweeted that Castillo has impressed you in minor league camp, but I don't recall any Castillo in our system. Obviously I'm wrong, so can you tell me more about him?
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:19 am

JP_Frost wrote:Tony, you tweeted that Castillo has impressed you in minor league camp, but I don't recall any Castillo in our system. Obviously I'm wrong, so can you tell me more about him?


Leonardo Castillo....played with rookie Arizona last year. Good defender, good arm, and a nice bat to boot. Org is very excited about him and he had a nice year as a just turned 18 year old last season...and is having a tremendous camp this spring.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ClevelandBlues » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:36 am

I know that spring training for veterans is mostly a time to get their work in and prepare for the season, but is there any reason to be concerned about Tomlin or Jimenez? They have both been getting shelled and Jimenez has been walking a batter an inning. A story in the beacon also stated that Ubaldo's fastball was being clocked between 89-91 miles per hour. Maybe I am getting worked up too soon, but if we are going to be competitve this year, we really need Jimenez to be the ace he was in 2010.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:32 am

if we are going to be competitve this year, we really need Jimenez to be the ace he was in 2010.


You mean the ace he was in the first half of 2010. He's really been a below average pitcher for the lasts year-and-a-half.

This doesn't look good at all. I'm concerned we gave away Pomeranz for nothing.

I'd like to see Ubaldo streamline his delivery. He's got arms and legs going everywhere and is throwing five pitches. No wonder he can't find the strike zone.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:21 am

The velocity drop for Ubaldo seems to be a concern for everyone but the Indians (players, coaches and front office). The drop in velocity was most apparent in his last outing, sitting in the 89-90 mph range. Ubaldo has two weeks and a few days to get his act together on that regard. It should be noted that Ubaldo is having the worst Spring Training of his career.

Edit.. after further evaluation.. and watching both JeanMar Gomez and Clayton Kershaw throw some.. the Velocity drop by Ubaldo..is due in part to the gun being used.. After watching JeanMar both at the ML level & the minors.. he's consistently in the 88-89 mph range, touching 90-91. Today, JeanMar is sitting at 87-88 touching 89.. Kershaw usually sits in the low to mid 90's (92-94) touching 95.. today.. Kershaw's best FB has been 92.. and is sitting at 90-91..so clearly a two or three mph drop..

The Indians (players, coaches & front office) are probably fine with the velo.. it's all about the command that's at issue with Ubaldo..

BTW.. very nice piece of hitting in the first inning by Jason Donald in the two hole.. Just put him anywhere in the lineup and he'll swing the bat.. Also, JeanMar has great separation on his Change to his fastball.. about 11 mph difference..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:10 am

I've been noticing that the gun has been slow all spring. I haven't seen a 94 mph fastball yet, at least in the 3 or 4 televised games I watched. A lot of pitches that are obviously fastballs have been in the high or even mid-80s.

For example, Gomez blew away Matt Kemp with what the gun said was an 88 mph fastball. I don't believe you can strike Kemp out swinging at 88 mph.

Gomez has been absolutely dominant. No runs allowed in 11 innings. Even with three errors behind him yesterday (the triple should have been ruled an error) he slammed the door. AFAIC, he's running away with the #5 starter's job.

Jose Lopez has made it all but impossible for Manny to cut him. I could see him platooning with Hafner at DH.

Chris Perez said he threw all his pitches at 100% yesterday and felt fine. However, Manny is not happy with the back end of the pen. Hoynsie said he threatened the relievers that he would give Jeanmar a bullpen spot if somebody doesn't step up. I wouldn't be surprised to see CC Lee take Herrmann's spot at some point this season.

As for Ubaldo, I hope he doesn't have to go back to A ball to get himself straightened out like Hernandez/Carmona did a couple of years back. Like Manny says, the pitchers should be ahead of the hitters at this point.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:18 am

I have been pulling for Russ Canzler. But after watching him yesterday in the OF, I don't know. Seemed clueless on routes. I don't know if he can be a starter unless he improves his defense at some position. With his options, I'm sure he will wind up in Columbus. I hope somebody coaches him up.

He would look to be a strong candidate to replace Hafner at DH next season.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:10 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:I have been pulling for Russ Canzler. But after watching him yesterday in the OF, I don't know. Seemed clueless on routes. I don't know if he can be a starter unless he improves his defense at some position. With his options, I'm sure he will wind up in Columbus. I hope somebody coaches him up.

He would look to be a strong candidate to replace Hafner at DH next season.


Unless Hafner's option is picked up by the Indians... then Russ Canzler would need to, at the very least, be an adequate OF'er or corner infielder. He should be that, anyway..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:27 am

Nobody has made a strong case for that left field job. I say let Shelley play there every day and keep somebody like Pie, who can play all three positions, as the 4th. If Shelley isn't producing at the end of April and if somebody like Neal, Canzler, or Spilborghs is tearing it up at Columbus, then make a move.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Nobody has made a strong case for that left field job. I say let Shelley play there every day and keep somebody like Pie, who can play all three positions, as the 4th. If Shelley isn't producing at the end of April and if somebody like Neal, Canzler, or Spilborghs is tearing it up at Columbus, then make a move.


Agree here, though I think a guy like Spilborghs is more likely than Pie. Spil can play all 3 outfield spots too, playing all 3 every year in the bigs since his rookie year in 2007. In 2007 he actually played more games in CF than both RF and LF combined. Not saying he's a guy I want as my everyday starter in CF, hell no....but he's very capable of playing there if needed.

Spil was pretty bad in 2011, but he did have a very solid 2010 with a .360 OBP. Pie has never been good...I'd rather go with Trevor Crowe right now to be honest. Is having a pretty solid spring at the plate...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:31 pm

-Regarding Spillbourghs 2011.. they (Manning/Underwood/Etc) said he was suffering from Plantar Faciaitis. If you've ever stepped on a nail, imagine a dull one every time you take a step..and you know what he was going through. He came to the 2012 camp with a walking boot to keep his foot 'aligned' so he wouldn't experience the same symptoms.

Game today versus the SF Giant..

-Okay !.. Game on.. Slowey is looking like he wants that fifth spot.. Tomlin better take notice or he might be the guy who can give two innings or more out of the pen...

Tomlin can relax.. Slowey is imploding.. perhaps he's imploding all the way to Columbus...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:31 pm

So far the Indians only look barely mediocre on offense, if it continues this way it won't be enough to contend in 2012. Spring training is just that spring training. Can't imagine this offense scoring the kind of run production necessary to make the playoffs.

IMO, they still need to trade for an experienced high profile all-around player with an impact RH bat. Another Choo only RH'd who can hit 3rd, 4th or 5th in our line up. This type of addition would make a significant difference. Hard to find, but they need to get one for sure. Sign Cabrera long term and trade the young SS prospect and others, we need to win now.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:57 pm

The Indians have picked up RP Rick VandenHurk on waivers from the Blue Jays. He is on the 40-man, and is out of options. DLC was DFA'd. Looking at his stats showed nothing that impressive to me.

This is a puzzle to me. Even if the Indians were unhappy with the battle for the remaining bullpen spots, why bring in somebody from outside the organization. Is this guy going to be better than Hagadone?

On the other hand, maybe a trade is in the works. Maybe we are about to move a bullpen arm, and will have another opening.

(Angels update: Trumbo -23 AB - 2 HR - 7 SO ; Morales - close to game condition.)
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:41 pm

ironmike wrote:So far the Indians only look barely mediocre on offense, if it continues this way it won't be enough to contend in 2012. Spring training is just that spring training. Can't imagine this offense scoring the kind of run production necessary to make the playoffs.

IMO, they still need to trade for an experienced high profile all-around player with an impact RH bat. Another Choo only RH'd who can hit 3rd, 4th or 5th in our line up. This type of addition would make a significant difference. Hard to find, but they need to get one for sure. Sign Cabrera long term and trade the young SS prospect and others, we need to win now.


By MLB rule the Indians cannot trade Lindor until August. He must be with the Indians for 1 full year before he can be traded. We have a lot of other nice prospects but (in my opinion) only Lindor and Howard (same rule - 1 full year) are the only guys that can be a starting point for a high profile hitter.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:08 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Nobody has made a strong case for that left field job. I say let Shelley play there every day and keep somebody like Pie, who can play all three positions, as the 4th. If Shelley isn't producing at the end of April and if somebody like Neal, Canzler, or Spilborghs is tearing it up at Columbus, then make a move.

+1

Agree with this entirely.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:30 am

Duncan deserves a chance to continue being a role player with the Indians. Although, I do understand the Indians wanting to give him an opportunity. Unfortunately, realistically he is 32 years old and is a role player. If you want to get to the playoffs and win then Duncan needs to stay as the role player, especially if we do not have a young minor leaguer who is ready to step in and play at a high level. Taking Duncan out of his role weakens the teams bench and depth.

The Indians need to make a deal.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 am

ironmike wrote:Duncan deserves a chance to continue being a role player with the Indians. Although, I do understand the Indians wanting to give him an opportunity. Unfortunately, realistically he is 32 years old and is a role player. If you want to get to the playoffs and win then Duncan needs to stay as the role player, especially if we do not have a young minor leaguer who is ready to step in and play at a high level. Taking Duncan out of his role weakens the teams bench and depth.

The Indians need to make a deal.


Generally agree with this, except that Duncan has never had the opportunity to play every day, so do we know for sure he can't handle the job? Could he hit .250/25/90 if he got 600 at-bats? IIRC, he hit right-handed pitching as well or better than left-handers last year, so it's not like he has a dramatic split like Marson. If anything his hitting might improve if he plays every day.

I don't know what the Indians have that they could trade for a significantly better left fielder than Duncan or Spilborghs or Canzler. They would have to package Hannahan (if they're sure Chiz is ready), Phelps or LaPorta (if anybody wants to give LaPorta a second chance), Raffie Perez (if they are confident Hags and Sipp can handle the left-handed BP duties), and/or one of their high ceiling prospects in A ball (but not Lindor or Howard or Aguilar).

Jason Donald might have some value to a team in need of a starting 2B or a utility guy. With his ability to hammer left-handed pitching I could see him in the NL where he could be a valuable pinch hitter when he's not starting.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:53 am

One of the three prime times for deal making is fast approaching.. chronologically..

The first is obviously during the Hot Stove season. More trades/acquisitions get made during this time than at any other time during a baseball year. Free Agents, direct trades, Rule V, etc all come under this umbrella. The Indians made one major trade (Derek Lowe acquisition) and several minor trades/acquisitions including the signing of several NRI's and the Kevin Slowey deal.

The second is just prior to the opening of the season. Teams look at where they're at w/r to injuries, bumps and bruises, performance, etc and determine if their rosters are who they want to go into battle with. This is where the Indians find themselves.. along with 29 other clubs. You can bet the Indians aren't the only team looking for an "impact bat" that can be slotted into a position of need. In short, making a deal now, is unlikely, but not unheard of. This would not be something Indians fans should count on happening..

The third is at the Trading Deadline. IF the Indians are going to acquire an impact bat..this is when it will happen, imho. So, with the roster pretty much set save for some questions known before the start of Spring Training to be answered. this is the team the Indians will bring north to Zebullon to begin the 2012 season...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:20 am

Sal, I'd love to go out & get Ryan Braun, or Jay Bruce or Corey Hart. Do we have anything that Tampa wants? I'd take Upton or Joyce. See how easy it sounds?

I'm not trying to be a prick because I agree with you basically, based on existing evidence, Duncan isn't good enough to be a starter on a good team. We don't have anyone currently performing better. So unless we can convince a non-contending team that some combo of Barnes, Araujo, Wolters, et al, is enough compensation for a good ML OF, we're just talking Fantasy Baseball. You & I might think those guys are enough but we're not the ones who need to be convinced.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:59 am

Rocky, GM's are paid to be aggressive and calculating. Don't see how the Indians can be a contender and have a well stocked farm system simultaneously. It is one or the other in the economic state of the game for the Indains. If they are trying to win in this window, hell, roll the dice. It is no secret, we simply need more offense, with less K's and more BB's. Been repeating the same over and over I get tired of saying it.

This team needs to score 850 runs to contend, don't see it happening with the cast they now have. Unless, one of these journeyman evolve. It could happen, most of the time it doesn't. Would not surprise me to see Jose Lopez starting for this team before the season is over. His track record is good and better than any other acquisition over the winter with the exception of Kotchman.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:52 pm

Actually you can contend and have a stacked farm system. Just look at the Rangers and Rays. The most important thing is to be patient. You either let your prospects develop and wait on them or you trade the farm for big leaguers and try to contend that way.

The Indians have a relatively young team which right now is on the cusp of becoming a contender. The lower levels of the farm system are stocked with high upside prospects and hopefully some them progress quickly so they can help the major league team in 3 years time. If we can keep the likes of Santana, Kipnis, Chiz, Masterson, Pestano and Carrasco with our team and they develop like we expect them to, that'd be a really solid core for the future which hopefully will be joined by a couple of those lower level guys. My only worry with that scenario is that those timeframes won't overlap and we don't have all of those core pieces when our prospects are ready.

Right now I'm okay with letting these guys play it out and we'll see how far along this group is. I'm only willing to part with our top prospects if it nets us a potential franchise player under control for several years (which won't happen), since we're more than just one part away from being a perennial contender, so let the kids dictate the timeframe for competing with the big boys, because teams like the Tigers and White Sox will have a lot of issues in a few years time. In fact, the Royals scare me the most over the next 5 years or so.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Ubaldo's heater has been better today, consistently touching 93.. flashing 94 and 95 at times.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Found this on Twitter: Averages for Ubaldo Jimenez's fastballs: 1st inning = 91.6 MPH, 2nd inning = 92.4 MPH, 3rd inning = 89.3 MPH
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:15 pm

Today's outing by Ubaldo was perhaps his best of the spring.. Seemed to be controlling the ball in the zone just a wee bit better, but still not as good as he needs to be. He was maintaining his FB velocity above 90. Four IP's and over 75 pitches needs to be improved some. A good sign at this time.. We'll see if he can build on this outing in his next start.. todays game showed when the Indians are on their game, they can score runs in bunches.. another omen of forthcoming "good things"...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:05 am

Manning and Underwood interviewed Shapiro during the game the other day. He was very optimistic about the middle of the Tribe's lineup being very productive this year. He was gushing about Santana being "a man on a mission" (he came to camp in great shape) and Choo swinging the bat as well as ever.

Throw in Pronk, ACab, Kotchman, Duncan and Brantley and this team has the capability to have an above average offense even without an elite left fielder.

Just saying the Tribe may not feel a tremendous need to move top prospects for a left fielder right now. Especially since they really don't know what Sizemore can do this year. It may be a matter of getting through the first two months with a Duncan/Spilborghs platoon until Grady is ready to play.

In the event Grady is unable to come back and be productive, and none of the guys they have now steps up, then I could see a deal at the trade deadline, assuming the Tribe is in contention.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:21 pm

Don't see the Indians improving by 150 runs scored without another impact bat. Shapiro has a right to his opinion, but he missed on far more things than he hit on. After all he hired a manager who told us strike outs are okay. You'll notice the complete opposite opinion from Manny Acta.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:19 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Manning and Underwood interviewed Shapiro during the game the other day. He was very optimistic about the middle of the Tribe's lineup being very productive this year. He was gushing about Santana being "a man on a mission" (he came to camp in great shape) and Choo swinging the bat as well as ever.

Throw in Pronk, ACab, Kotchman, Duncan and Brantley and this team has the capability to have an above average offense even without an elite left fielder.

Just saying the Tribe may not feel a tremendous need to move top prospects for a left fielder right now. Especially since they really don't know what Sizemore can do this year. It may be a matter of getting through the first two months with a Duncan/Spilborghs platoon until Grady is ready to play.

In the event Grady is unable to come back and be productive, and none of the guys they have now steps up, then I could see a deal at the trade deadline, assuming the Tribe is in contention.


When the team is healthy, the lineup is considerably lengthened.. going at least seven deep versus RHSP's and even deeper versus LHSP's. Possible lineups could feature:

..versus RHSP:

Michael Brantley LH
Asdrubal Cabrera S
Shin Soo Choo LH
Carlos Santana S
Travis Hafner LH
Shelly Duncan RH
Jason Kipnis LH
Casey Kotchman LH
Jack Hannahan LH

Bench: Jose Lopez, Ryan Spilborghs, Lou Marson & Jason Donald (all righties)

versus LHSP

2B Jason Donald RH
SS Asdrubal Cabrera S
RF Shin-soo Choo LH
DH Carlos Santana S
LF Shelly Duncan RH
1B Jose Lopez RH
C Lou Marson RH
3B Jack Hannahan LH
CF Ryan Spilborghs RH

Bench: Jason Kipnis, Travis Hafner, Michael Brantley and Casey Kotchman (all lefties)

It appears Jose Lopez ( In 13 games: 11/28; 2 HR's 7 RBI's .393/.452/.679 <== other worldly ST numbers) being retained is an almost certainty at this point with less than two weeks to go in Spring Training. Lopez can play any one of three spots, but, should probably get most of his starts at 1B and DH when Carlos Santana needs a complete day off.

These two "core lineups" should score enough runs to compete with any team in the AL Central...

FWIW, only three teams topped 800 runs scored last year (Red Sox, Yankees and Rangers..all who play in band-box/hitter friendly parks). The Detroit Tigers scored 83 more runs than the Indians in 2011.., so, while not an impossible number to achieve, & while the pitching in the AL continues to improve, making the comment that the Indians have to score 150 more runs to compete is pretty senseless. The number the Indians will be focusing on is "one".. As in, one more than the opposition for that game...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:04 pm

Geronimo, more keyboard garbage.

It's very simple, score more runs, less K's and more BB's.
Yes, the Indians need to score 850 runs in the regular season
to go deep inthe playoffs. They need another impact bat.

Manny's formula - put the ball in play, take the extra base, be aggressive
going from 1st to 3rd, hit the ball where it is pitched,
don't be pull happy, move runners, put pressure on
the defense at all times, get runners home from 3b with
less than 2 outs, and when a hitter has two strikes put
the ball in play.

Do those things and wanting to do those things consistenly
wins games whether you are the 1st or 25th man on the
squad.

The Indians in the 90's did not win because of Belle,
Thome and Ramirez ... it was Omar, Lofton and Robbie
doing those things described above.

Funny how the former players always give Lofton high praise
for being the igniter and the fans always start with the
home run hitters. Lofton was most recently saluted by
Albert Belle.

Lofton was the BEST all-around player the Indians have
had in the last 50 years. We need another one just like
him to change the dynamic of the present day Indians.

If you listen to Manny Acta he will tell you the same thing.
This team needs to K less and walk more. Heard him
say it a dozen times since the end of last season.

EOM
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:52 pm

Well.. go from score 150 more runs (by bringing in the mythical big RH bat with no name) to bring in the next Kenny Lofton to ignite the offense.. More rusty mike drivel...
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby ironmike » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:42 am

Geronimo, keep trying. And this version of Indians could not use a Kenny Lofton? Keep trying.

•Injuries have already taken a toll on the Indians' outfield, and manager Manny Acta told Paul Hoynes of The Cleveland Plain-Dealer that any left field candidates "need to hit ... We can't have a pecking order for defensive left fielders here. We need to see some stuff, some offense, some production."

Previous post is all about the finer points of production.

We need a present day McCutcheon (type) who is the next one out there? Find him, make it a priority so we maximize the window we are now in. We got Lofton from the Houston farm system via a tip from Charlie Manuel who was managing at Colorado Springs our Triple A team and confirmed by Mike Hargrove. You need to value certain types of players to be able to appreciate them. Maybe Brantley has the tools.

Big problem with the reserve players we brought to camp this year they are all clones, second tier type players.

In all the years following the Indians since 1962 can't believe this team does not have an impact, professional RH hitter.

Inexcusable.

Hoping we get one before the season. We can't afford not to play in April, May and June without one.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 am

Well..if it is so easy.. why don't the Indians go out and get:

-Albert Pujols for first base.. he's a RH hitter that might impact the lineup ???????

and while the Indians are at it.. why don't they get Jose Reyes to be the impact leadoff guy ???

It's not about production.. it's about reality. You make these statement about what the Indians should do..(go get McCutchen.. go get Cargo.. go get Pujols.. etc..etc..) and there's no way it's going to happen.. not now.. not this season.. not at all.. There is only one way the Indians get the impact player you are describing.. grow him from either a draft pick or from another brilliant & astute trade.. like the one Mark Shapiro made when he acquired Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee and Grady Sizemore.. Otherwise, the color of the sky in your world must be "..psychedelic.." as you have absolutely no grasp on reality..
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:55 am

I really think players like Kipnis, Santana and Chisenhall are being overlooked here. None of them are on the level of McCutcheon yet, but all of them could get there. Especially Santana.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby daingean » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:11 am

JP_Frost wrote:I really think players like Kipnis, Santana and Chisenhall are being overlooked here. None of them are on the level of McCutcheon yet, but all of them could get there. Especially Santana.


I agree....it's not like we don't want to add a proven impact bat but that most of us realize that that is just not possible with the amo this team has, the time of the year (name me the last impact bat traded during ST), or with this team's financial situation. So we have to HOPE that a guy like Santana provides that kind of offense. In '94 the Indians didn't trade their top prospect (Manny) for a proven impact bat they gave a kid a chance (note Albert Belle and Jim Thome all had a few less than productive seasons at the ML level before getting their chance to shine - both were sent down a couple of times) so it's not out of the realm of possibility for 1 - 3 of those guys taking a major step forward. IMO, that is what we need to hope for because teams aren't going to trade away a McCutcheon guy at this time of year (maybe July but only as a 2-3 month rental).
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:26 pm

In all the years following the Indians since 1962 can't believe this team does not have an impact, professional RH hitter.

Inexcusable.


They should still have Victor Martinez but the economic realities made that impossible.

They thought they were getting one in Andy Marte, but he fizzled out.

Maybe they've been drafting too many pitchers.

As for this year, Santana and Donald both had excellent years from the right side last season, and we also have Asdrubal and Duncon. Hannahan also hit lefties well. In fact, the Tribe had a higher win percentage against left-handed starters than right-handers last year. I don't think the situation is desparate, although getting a Michael Cuddyer type would have been great.

If they don't do better than 80-82 this year it will be because of the starting pitching, IMO.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Edible14 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:46 pm

De La Cruz now gets claimed by the Tigers. It's been a wild spring for him.

Why exactly did the Indians decide they needed Vanderhurk?
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:10 pm

The Tribe wanted to add an arm with some potential value at the 6, 7 spots in the pen. Not that Vanden Hurk adds much, but he has previously been used as a starter. Maybe the Tribe sees something they feel can be fixed. The Tribe had previously been linked to Vanden Hurk before he signed with the Jays.

I feel bad for DLC, he probably doesn't know if he is coming or going. The must of felt he would slip through.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:03 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I really think players like Kipnis, Santana and Chisenhall are being overlooked here. None of them are on the level of McCutcheon yet, but all of them could get there. Especially Santana.


I fully expect Santana to be beyond McCutcheon level (at least offensively) this season. I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit 35 HRs this year with at least a .380 OBP and .900 OPS. Perhaps too high of standards but after last season combined with a healthy offseason for once, think it could be an undersell.
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:43 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I really think players like Kipnis, Santana and Chisenhall are being overlooked here. None of them are on the level of McCutcheon yet, but all of them could get there. Especially Santana.


I fully expect Santana to be beyond McCutcheon level (at least offensively) this season. I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit 35 HRs this year with at least a .380 OBP and .900 OPS. Perhaps too high of standards but after last season combined with a healthy offseason for once, think it could be an undersell.


I disagree in terms of HR total.. I see somewhere between 28-30 HR this season for Santana... granted not a huge difference. :geek
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:57 pm

Indians searching for a LFer.... the Angels becoming increasing frustrated with Abreu...... is there a match there?

Granted Abreu isn't the force he once was, but he gets on base and there's the potential of one last big season in him..... some media outlets are suggesting the Angels might release him after recent comments made in the Spanish speaking media, so there my not be a high acquisition cost..... something to consider!
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Re: 2012 Spring Training Comments and Conversation

Postby artgold » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:32 pm

I think Bobby Abreu's bat has slowed down quite a bit the past couple of years, I'm not so sure he'd be much of an asset to this club.

I'm OK with what we've got today (I assume Duncan will get a bit of the time), at least to give it a look for a month while we wait to see if Sizemore will likely be able to come back and play CF, freeing up Brantley for LF.
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