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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Edible14 wrote:The Indians could have up to 14 players eligible for arbitration next year.

Raffy, Asdrubal, Joe Smith, Slowey and Choo will be going in for their third year.
Hannahan, Masterson and Chris Perez would be in it for the 2nd year
Duncan, LaPorta, Sipp, and Marson could all be 1st year guys, and Brantley and Cunningham are potential Super 2 guys.

First, I somewhat doubt LaPorta actually gets to arbitration. That being said, if he's recalled early enough, it's possible even if he just gets to Super 2 status.

Second... I look at this and I think that, without some trades/moves... the increases from this pool (combined with the increase in minimum salary to close to 500k/year), could pretty much account for all that the team would "save" by buying out Hafner and then some. Leaving the Indians with maybe $15MM to spend in free agency... best case scenario (assuming Lowe, Grady, Fausto, Kotchman all part ways). This, for a team that would have holes at 1B, CF, DH and SP. The only way those change is if you see some leaps forward in production from one of the 1B (LaPorta, Canzler, Mills, Goedert), or OF (Weglarz, Neal, Carerra, etc.) or SP (Huff, Gomez, ZMac, Kluber, Barnes).

Just something to keep in mind this season. There's going to be a need for a lot of the younger guys to step up if the team is going to contend in 2013 (and perhaps beyond).


If some of the bullpen prospects progress then Raffy, Chris Perez and Joe Smith could become trade bait. A few guys on that list could be potential dfa candidates as well. Raises will probably eat into some of the money that is freed up, but there should still be a good amount leftover. I wouldn't mind seeing the Indians offer some long term contracts to some of their better arb eligibles and maybe buy out their first year or two of free agency. Asdrubal and Masterson would be two good candidates for extensions, and maybe even guys like Santana and Kipnis.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Edible14 wrote:The Indians could have up to 14 players eligible for arbitration next year.

Raffy, Asdrubal, Joe Smith, Slowey and Choo will be going in for their third year.
Hannahan, Masterson and Chris Perez would be in it for the 2nd year

Duncan, LaPorta, Sipp, and Marson could all be 1st year guys, and Brantley and Cunningham are potential Super 2 guys.

First, I somewhat doubt LaPorta actually gets to arbitration. That being said, if he's recalled early enough, it's possible even if he just gets to Super 2 status.

Second... I look at this and I think that, without some trades/moves... the increases from this pool (combined with the increase in minimum salary to close to 500k/year), could pretty much account for all that the team would "save" by buying out Hafner and then some. Leaving the Indians with maybe $15MM to spend in free agency... best case scenario (assuming Lowe, Grady, Fausto, Kotchman all part ways). This, for a team that would have holes at 1B, CF, DH and SP. The only way those change is if you see some leaps forward in production from one of the 1B (LaPorta, Canzler, Mills, Goedert), or OF (Weglarz, Neal, Carerra, etc.) or SP (Huff, Gomez, ZMac, Kluber, Barnes).

Just something to keep in mind this season. There's going to be a need for a lot of the younger guys to step up if the team is going to contend in 2013 (and perhaps beyond).


Just a slight correction, Chris Perez will be going for his 3rd time in 2013.

also, theoretically Carmona could also be arbitration eligible. If he doesn't play the entire year, he'll still be short of 6 years of service time. Moot point but sort of interested in how that would work.

Will be interesting to see too how the new CBA affects Super Twos in the next few years with the 5% increase. Another thing in the CBA which really doesn't help the Tribe.

Think the Indians will end up with a bit more than $15M to play with even with all the potential arby guys, but will depend on how much to bump the payroll next year (need to contend this year and improve to keep fans/businesses interested). Agree though, the young guys need to step up, but that'd be the case really regardless of how much money the team had next offseason.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:28 pm

Edible14 wrote:The Indians could have up to 14 players eligible for arbitration next year.

Raffy, Asdrubal, Joe Smith, Slowey and Choo will be going in for their third year.
Hannahan, Masterson and Chris Perez would be in it for the 2nd year
Duncan, LaPorta, Sipp, and Marson could all be 1st year guys, and Brantley and Cunningham are potential Super 2 guys.

First, I somewhat doubt LaPorta actually gets to arbitration. That being said, if he's recalled early enough, it's possible even if he just gets to Super 2 status.

Second... I look at this and I think that, without some trades/moves... the increases from this pool (combined with the increase in minimum salary to close to 500k/year), could pretty much account for all that the team would "save" by buying out Hafner and then some. Leaving the Indians with maybe $15MM to spend in free agency... best case scenario (assuming Lowe, Grady, Fausto, Kotchman all part ways). This, for a team that would have holes at 1B, CF, DH and SP. The only way those change is if you see some leaps forward in production from one of the 1B (LaPorta, Canzler, Mills, Goedert), or OF (Weglarz, Neal, Carerra, etc.) or SP (Huff, Gomez, ZMac, Kluber, Barnes).

Just something to keep in mind this season. There's going to be a need for a lot of the younger guys to step up if the team is going to contend in 2013 (and perhaps beyond).

Not trying to be picky Edible but the salary savings from Lowe, Grady, Fausto and Kotchman would be from a minimum of $20M if you add their 2012 salaries to a maximum of approximately $26M if Grady and Kotchman get their incentives. Personally, I would suggest that Lowe would be replaced by Carrasco with more savings but that is hardly certain. Even more important is the performance clauses of Sizemore and Kotchman. If these two only get their base salaries, I feel confident their performance can be replaced by any of the names you mention and several others as well if the Tribe chooses to use the salary savings in other ways. There is a lot of depth at those positions in the organization from offseason moves that should be considered when considering replacements IMO. For one, I would like to believe you are right when you project the "arbs" would eat up all the $11M Hafner salary savings since that means they would likely have had productive years. Just not sure 2013 is real bleak but that is just my opinion. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:35 am

I was more or less figuring that the raises (both arbitration and minimum salary... as well as the cost of paying a minimum salary to replace the 5 free agents) would add something like $15MM. And, while Hafner won't cost the team $13MM next year... he will have that $2.75MM buyout. So he'll only be saving the team around $10MM. With $20MM saved by those 4, you'd have roughly $15MM less committed to the payroll than this year. Obviously, that's a bit of a guess and could be off significantly.

Also, re: Hermie, I was lumping Chris in with the 2nd year guys more because it's not his final year. But yes, you are correct on that.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:54 am

Edible14 wrote:I was more or less figuring that the raises (both arbitration and minimum salary... as well as the cost of paying a minimum salary to replace the 5 free agents) would add something like $15MM. And, while Hafner won't cost the team $13MM next year... he will have that $2.75MM buyout. So he'll only be saving the team around $10MM. With $20MM saved by those 4, you'd have roughly $15MM less committed to the payroll than this year. Obviously, that's a bit of a guess and could be off significantly.

Also, re: Hermie, I was lumping Chris in with the 2nd year guys more because it's not his final year. But yes, you are correct on that.

The point I was trying to make is that these guys are not irreplaceable stars. They might have been at one time and we can hope they will be this year but their performance will likely be replacement level rather than star. The Indians have loads of those in the organization and can get more from FA/trades next year. If Fausto does not come back this year (I don't think he will), the Indians looks like they will have enough money to pick up an expiring contract midseason if they contend and fans show up. As I said earlier, I have my fingers crossed that the "arbs" will earn big raises this year. Nothing would make me happier since those players are much more important to 2012 and beyond than any of the five are likely to be IMO. Maybe I am overly optimistic but I believe it will be easier to put a more successful team on the field in 2013 than this year. :drinks:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:36 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:The point I was trying to make is that these guys are not irreplaceable stars. They might have been at one time and we can hope they will be this year but their performance will likely be replacement level rather than star.


Ah, fair enough. I would argue that while none of them are "stars", none of them are likely "replacement players" either. Hafner quietly put up a 1.3 WAR last year, and I think you can roughly expect similar things this year. Nobody expects Kotchman to repeat his 2.8 WAR, but it's not crazy to think he can put up somewhere between 1.5 and 2 WAR this year. Sizemore best fits that description if he's what he's been the last 2 years. Between them, you can probably expect somewhere between 3-5 WAR this year, and I don't think that's totally off-base. And, that would be hard to replace in free agency.

My point is that there's probably only going to be money to fill one or two of those holes with free agents. So, it should be an interesting storyline this year to see who steps up and fills some of those needs.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:23 pm

Edible14 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:The point I was trying to make is that these guys are not irreplaceable stars. They might have been at one time and we can hope they will be this year but their performance will likely be replacement level rather than star.


Ah, fair enough. I would argue that while none of them are "stars", none of them are likely "replacement players" either. Hafner quietly put up a 1.3 WAR last year, and I think you can roughly expect similar things this year. Nobody expects Kotchman to repeat his 2.8 WAR, but it's not crazy to think he can put up somewhere between 1.5 and 2 WAR this year. Sizemore best fits that description if he's what he's been the last 2 years. Between them, you can probably expect somewhere between 3-5 WAR this year, and I don't think that's totally off-base. And, that would be hard to replace in free agency.
My point is that there's probably only going to be money to fill one or two of those holes with free agents. So, it should be an interesting storyline this year to see who steps up and fills some of those needs.

I really don't want to argue about this. I have a question for you about your statistical use of WAR as a valid measure of the "replacement value" of all players. WAR is a commonly used stat which I believe is flawed in some respects. I feel the stat does not represent a good idea of "replacement value" for part time players like Sizemore and Hafner, who is doubly part time as a DH only. Never done a study and never will. Just a gut feeling that injured part time, platoons plus other frequently subbed players and DHs get a statistical benefit from the offensive formula that is inflated. I have other issues with the stat but that is the big one. Do you think it is valid for general use or are there exceptions? I know I am old fashioned in my thinking because Hermie told me so. Is this another case of my limited thinking getting the best of me.

As my personal feeling regarding the bolded section of your post, the minimum salary value of the five players in 2012 is over $30M and that can buy a lot of WAR. The best WAR of the lot is Kotchman who cost $3M plus incentives this year. This all opinion so please don't take offense. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:59 pm

I've done enough reading on WAR to know that it's flawed (for what it's worth, I use the FanGraphs version of WAR). The big issues I have with the fangraphs version is that the defensive runs component uses UZR (which a lot of people discredit). That being said, it's the most readily accessible all-encompassing statistic, hence the use. But more to your point, WAR is a counting statistic, so it actually hurts guys who are platoon players like Hafner and Sizemore (it's a big reason Sizemore's WAR from last year was .2).

I think the Kotchman signing has a lot to do with people generally believing that his performance from last year was something of a mirage, and there being quite a few better 1B on the market. At the money we got him at, he was a steal in my opinion. The general opinion I've heard on what players should generally get on the free agent market is something like $4-5MM per win above replacement. Which means you could argue for Kotchman being worth up to $15MM by WAR. Which illustrates two things: one, we got quite the bargain, and two, WAR is sometimes very unintuitive and/or flawed with certain players. (For what it's worth BP has his WARP at 1.9, B-R has his WAR at 2.9).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:23 am

Edible14 wrote:I've done enough reading on WAR to know that it's flawed (for what it's worth, I use the FanGraphs version of WAR). The big issues I have with the fangraphs version is that the defensive runs component uses UZR (which a lot of people discredit). That being said, it's the most readily accessible all-encompassing statistic, hence the use. But more to your point, WAR is a counting statistic, so it actually hurts guys who are platoon players like Hafner and Sizemore (it's a big reason Sizemore's WAR from last year was .2).

I think the Kotchman signing has a lot to do with people generally believing that his performance from last year was something of a mirage, and there being quite a few better 1B on the market. At the money we got him at, he was a steal in my opinion. The general opinion I've heard on what players should generally get on the free agent market is something like $4-5MM per win above replacement. Which means you could argue for Kotchman being worth up to $15MM by WAR. Which illustrates two things: one, we got quite the bargain, and two, WAR is sometimes very unintuitive and/or flawed with certain players. (For what it's worth BP has his WARP at 1.9, B-R has his WAR at 2.9).

I am going to have to think more about your post, especially the bolded sentence. I appreciate your response but I am in deadline to finish editing this sci-fi book which is my priority at the moment. Will write more later. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:44 pm

Per mlbtraderumors... Joel Sherman has suggested the Tribe is in on AJ Burnett, Sherman has suggested via twitter the Tribe could send Travis Hafner- LH hitting DH to the Yanx for Burnett. As is, the Tribes payroll now stands at about $68.5 million.

Burnett is still on the books for $16.5 million this season and next. If acq. Burnett would add a solid veteran arm in that, he would take the mound as the 3rd starter every 5 days and would likely log about 190 innings. Burnett has struggled the past 2yrs posting a 10-15 record in 2010 with a 5.26 era and a 11-11 record in 2011 with a 5.15 era. Burnett is a strikeout pitcher (about 2/1 k/bb ratio the last 2 seasons) who would add solid innings, has a huge salary of which part could be offset by inclusion of Travis Hafner in a deal, and Burnett would offer a potential rebound season to whomever obtains him.

I can see the reasoning why the Tribe would be interested in this type deal. I would be cautious however, about adding his $16.5 million to the payroll next season. It could be a move that could hamstring the org. a bit in potentially obtaining the bat they have so long sought after.

I haven't heard any word of any roster moves to place Kotchman on the 40 man roster. Speculation would have the Tribe DFA one of Weglarz, DLC, or Kluber. Maybe the Tribe would consider the inclusion of one to get Burnett if there is real traction to the rumors.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:18 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Per mlbtraderumors... Joel Sherman has suggested the Tribe is in on AJ Burnett, Sherman has suggested via twitter the Tribe could send Travis Hafner- LH hitting DH to the Yanx for Burnett. As is, the Tribes payroll now stands at about $68.5 million.

Burnett is still on the books for $16.5 million this season and next. If acq. Burnett would add a solid veteran arm in that, he would take the mound as the 3rd starter every 5 days and would likely log about 190 innings. Burnett has struggled the past 2yrs posting a 10-15 record in 2010 with a 5.26 era and a 11-11 record in 2011 with a 5.15 era. Burnett is a strikeout pitcher (about 2/1 k/bb ratio the last 2 seasons) who would add solid innings, has a huge salary of which part could be offset by inclusion of Travis Hafner in a deal, and Burnett would offer a potential rebound season to whomever obtains him.

I can see the reasoning why the Tribe would be interested in this type deal. I would be cautious however, about adding his $16.5 million to the payroll next season. It could be a move that could hamstring the org. a bit in potentially obtaining the bat they have so long sought after.

I haven't heard any word of any roster moves to place Kotchman on the 40 man roster. Speculation would have the Tribe DFA one of Weglarz, DLC, or Kluber. Maybe the Tribe would consider the inclusion of one to get Burnett if there is real traction to the rumors.


Hmm....I think Burnett is one of those guys that just doesn't perform well in NYC so I'd expect to see better performance with a change of scenery. My concern is also his arm action which I think could breakdown. Now the payroll flexibility the Indians have (and we have been patient to achieve) would go out the window (somewhat). I do think this would make the Indians better in 2012. Just not sure that this would be the case from a financial situation.

If the Yankees pick up some of the salary then that make it more palatable.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:22 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Per mlbtraderumors... Joel Sherman has suggested the Tribe is in on AJ Burnett, Sherman has suggested via twitter the Tribe could send Travis Hafner- LH hitting DH to the Yanx for Burnett. As is, the Tribes payroll now stands at about $68.5 million.

Burnett is still on the books for $16.5 million this season and next. If acq. Burnett would add a solid veteran arm in that, he would take the mound as the 3rd starter every 5 days and would likely log about 190 innings. Burnett has struggled the past 2yrs posting a 10-15 record in 2010 with a 5.26 era and a 11-11 record in 2011 with a 5.15 era. Burnett is a strikeout pitcher (about 2/1 k/bb ratio the last 2 seasons) who would add solid innings, has a huge salary of which part could be offset by inclusion of Travis Hafner in a deal, and Burnett would offer a potential rebound season to whomever obtains him.

I can see the reasoning why the Tribe would be interested in this type deal. I would be cautious however, about adding his $16.5 million to the payroll next season. It could be a move that could hamstring the org. a bit in potentially obtaining the bat they have so long sought after.

I haven't heard any word of any roster moves to place Kotchman on the 40 man roster. Speculation would have the Tribe DFA one of Weglarz, DLC, or Kluber. Maybe the Tribe would consider the inclusion of one to get Burnett if there is real traction to the rumors.


There's lots of reasons to like this possible deal.
It might be time to part ways with pronk. He'll be 35 this season, and I'm not sure he's our best option at DH against LHP anymore.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Burnett would be our #3 SP if Tomlin is healthy. We would still need some cash from the Yanks to pay part of his salary. Also, in 2013, Ubaldo, Lowe, and Carmona/Hernandez would be gone, so Burnett could fill the vet SP role. It would be nice to have somebody, anybody, under contract for 2013.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:38 pm

There is exactly one reason to like this trade suggestion:

On January 26th on a "MLB TR: Speculative Trades Suggestion" Forum, this was proposed:

Yankees get Travis Hafner & Jack Hannahan

Indians get AJ Burnett, $ 13 MM, Mason Williams and Jose Campos

The inclusion of Campos was considered the "straw that broke the trade's back". IMHO, if Campos isn't included, then the cash coming back needs to go up by as much as $ 6 MM to $ 8 MM.


The addition of the two prospects to go with Burnett and his xFIP that says he'd be a better pitcher than the historical stats say.. especially in a part where LH hitters aren't able to hit weak fly balls for home runs.. Joel Sherman stole my idea..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:00 pm

Edible14 wrote:Also, re: Hermie, I was lumping Chris in with the 2nd year guys more because it's not his final year. But yes, you are correct on that.


Fair enough. It's not Raffy or Smith's final year either though. They'll both be 3rd year guys next year, but both were Super Two guys and not eligible for free agency til 2014.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:06 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Per mlbtraderumors... Joel Sherman has suggested the Tribe is in on AJ Burnett, Sherman has suggested via twitter the Tribe could send Travis Hafner- LH hitting DH to the Yanx for Burnett. As is, the Tribes payroll now stands at about $68.5 million.

Burnett is still on the books for $16.5 million this season and next. If acq. Burnett would add a solid veteran arm in that, he would take the mound as the 3rd starter every 5 days and would likely log about 190 innings. Burnett has struggled the past 2yrs posting a 10-15 record in 2010 with a 5.26 era and a 11-11 record in 2011 with a 5.15 era. Burnett is a strikeout pitcher (about 2/1 k/bb ratio the last 2 seasons) who would add solid innings, has a huge salary of which part could be offset by inclusion of Travis Hafner in a deal, and Burnett would offer a potential rebound season to whomever obtains him.

I can see the reasoning why the Tribe would be interested in this type deal. I would be cautious however, about adding his $16.5 million to the payroll next season. It could be a move that could hamstring the org. a bit in potentially obtaining the bat they have so long sought after.

I haven't heard any word of any roster moves to place Kotchman on the 40 man roster. Speculation would have the Tribe DFA one of Weglarz, DLC, or Kluber. Maybe the Tribe would consider the inclusion of one to get Burnett if there is real traction to the rumors.


Yes and no. This is the Tribe payroll with Carmona. If he doesn't play the Tribe is only paying out $61M or so (before any incentives to Grady/Kotchman).

As far as adding money to next year...yeah not a huge fan of paying all of Burnett's salary. I could understand if it was closer to only the $9M option that Carmona had, but agree, $16M could do more harm than good next year. One the positive side...Burnett could see his contract year and really have a great year (as he did with Toronto before opting out).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:11 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:There's lots of reasons to like this possible deal.
It might be time to part ways with pronk. He'll be 35 this season, and I'm not sure he's our best option at DH against LHP anymore.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Burnett would be our #3 SP if Tomlin is healthy. We would still need some cash from the Yanks to pay part of his salary. Also, in 2013, Ubaldo, Lowe, and Carmona/Hernandez would be gone, so Burnett could fill the vet SP role. It would be nice to have somebody, anybody, under contract for 2013.


He definitely is not the best option against lefties. But he really is the best option against righties....who we'll face more often than lefties.

Had we been able to move hafner a few years ago I could see it. Now, with only 1 year left...isn't that big an issue to move him IMO, especially if you're taking on money after Hafner would be gone. Do you start Duncan everyday at the DH spot then? :s_dunno

Can see some benefit in getting Burnett, but not really sure it's worth the trouble. Do think the Tribe needs another legit starting pitcher though...


Sounds like a moot point as the Pirates seem to be the ones getting him. And was just speculation from Heyman if I'm not mistaken?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:03 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:There's lots of reasons to like this possible deal.
It might be time to part ways with pronk. He'll be 35 this season, and I'm not sure he's our best option at DH against LHP anymore.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Burnett would be our #3 SP if Tomlin is healthy. We would still need some cash from the Yanks to pay part of his salary. Also, in 2013, Ubaldo, Lowe, and Carmona/Hernandez would be gone, so Burnett could fill the vet SP role. It would be nice to have somebody, anybody, under contract for 2013.


He definitely is not the best option against lefties. But he really is the best option against righties....who we'll face more often than lefties.
Had we been able to move hafner a few years ago I could see it. Now, with only 1 year left...isn't that big an issue to move him IMO, especially if you're taking on money after Hafner would be gone. Do you start Duncan everyday at the DH spot then? :s_dunno
Can see some benefit in getting Burnett, but not really sure it's worth the trouble. Do think the Tribe needs another legit starting pitcher though...


Sounds like a moot point as the Pirates seem to be the ones getting him. And was just speculation from Heyman if I'm not mistaken?

Might help save Grady's rather fragile body to spend some time at DH against RHP. Not sure Cansler might not make some sense from the other side. Just a spitball. Chances of this trade happening look remote to me. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:58 am

The Indians have signed Jon Garland... appears to be a minor league deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:21 am

A.Zajac wrote:The Indians have signed Jon Garland... appears to be a minor league deal.


I hope it's a minor league deal. Shoulder surgery always scares me but if he can recover and pitch like he did before his most recent injury, he can be an asset.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:00 am

Jon Garland is a nice low risk / high reward signing. If heathy a very solid add, a guy I've personally liked since his days with the CWS.
For perspective sake Garland could post 12-10 4.25 era 180 innings 130k.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:48 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:There's lots of reasons to like this possible deal.
It might be time to part ways with pronk. He'll be 35 this season, and I'm not sure he's our best option at DH against LHP anymore.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Burnett would be our #3 SP if Tomlin is healthy. We would still need some cash from the Yanks to pay part of his salary. Also, in 2013, Ubaldo, Lowe, and Carmona/Hernandez would be gone, so Burnett could fill the vet SP role. It would be nice to have somebody, anybody, under contract for 2013.


Ubaldo isn't leaving prior to 2013. He's still under club control. The option that was changed into a player option was the 2014 option, according to just about every site and media report I've seen.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:13 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:He definitely is not the best option against lefties. But he really is the best option against righties....who we'll face more often than lefties.
Had we been able to move hafner a few years ago I could see it. Now, with only 1 year left...isn't that big an issue to move him IMO, especially if you're taking on money after Hafner would be gone. Do you start Duncan everyday at the DH spot then? :s_dunno
Can see some benefit in getting Burnett, but not really sure it's worth the trouble. Do think the Tribe needs another legit starting pitcher though...


Sounds like a moot point as the Pirates seem to be the ones getting him. And was just speculation from Heyman if I'm not mistaken?

Might help save Grady's rather fragile body to spend some time at DH against RHP. Not sure Cansler might not make some sense from the other side. Just a spitball. Chances of this trade happening look remote to me. :pleasantry:


Don't disagree necessarily on Grady...but then the question becomes, who is in LF (assuming Brantley moves to CF)? Probably would be Duncan still, so the bats in the lineup really wouldn't change. Plus, if you believe Tony (and NOT saying he's wrong) and the Tribe's promise of sorts with Grady that he'll play CF...not sure you'll see Grady DHing too often, especially with a righty out there.

Canzler...interesting option for sure. I'd think a guy like Spillbourghs could sneak in too I guess.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Edible14 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:There's lots of reasons to like this possible deal.
It might be time to part ways with pronk. He'll be 35 this season, and I'm not sure he's our best option at DH against LHP anymore.
On the other hand, I'm not sure Burnett would be our #3 SP if Tomlin is healthy. We would still need some cash from the Yanks to pay part of his salary. Also, in 2013, Ubaldo, Lowe, and Carmona/Hernandez would be gone, so Burnett could fill the vet SP role. It would be nice to have somebody, anybody, under contract for 2013.


Ubaldo isn't leaving prior to 2013. He's still under club control. The option that was changed into a player option was the 2014 option, according to just about every site and media report I've seen.


Correct. Plus it's a bit of a moot point as even if the 2013 optoin switched to a player option, Ubaldo wouldn't be eligible for free agency as he won't have 6 years of service time after this season.

As far as being nice to have someone under contract...meh. We have plenty of guys who can't leave unless we say so (all the arby guys/min salary young guys). It's not like the entire team is gonna be gone next year.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Don't disagree necessarily on Grady...but then the question becomes, who is in LF (assuming Brantley moves to CF)? Probably would be Duncan still, so the bats in the lineup really wouldn't change. Plus, if you believe Tony (and NOT saying he's wrong) and the Tribe's promise of sorts with Grady that he'll play CF...not sure you'll see Grady DHing too often, especially with a righty out there.

Canzler...interesting option for sure. I'd think a guy like Spillbourghs could sneak in too I guess.


Canzler, Donald, Cunningham, Duncan, Spillbourghs - those are the guys I see fighting for playing time in LF (not sure PIE or Carrera makes this mix as they are both LF). Could even see Phelps given a chance to be a utility guy in LF.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Edible14 wrote:I was more or less figuring that the raises (both arbitration and minimum salary... as well as the cost of paying a minimum salary to replace the 5 free agents) would add something like $15MM. And, while Hafner won't cost the team $13MM next year... he will have that $2.75MM buyout. So he'll only be saving the team around $10MM. With $20MM saved by those 4, you'd have roughly $15MM less committed to the payroll than this year. Obviously, that's a bit of a guess and could be off significantly.



Even with arbitration raises, the Tribe could have a payroll (without replacing lost free agents) under $55M potentially last year. I've made what I think are reasonable estimates for arby raises. Obviously things could change over the course of the year with how they play though but $55M could leave the Tribe (if they are open to raising payroll again) with $20M to spend. Would need a starter to replace Carmona and Lowe. Hopefully Carrasco coming back can replace one though. Would need a bat in the OF....that's where I'd look to spend money (Swisher!). Tribe can also look trade as they did earlier this offseason and avoid paying too much money in free agency.

Biggest thing for the Tribe is young guys need to step up though. Both ML players and the prospects. Need some of those high-ceiling guys to have good seasons in the minors IMO to see if you can't possibly use them to add a pitcher/bat next year.

Also, maybe a bit off-topic but I wouldn't completely write off Hanfer returning next year. Absolutely no way the Tribe picks up his option, but as we saw with Grady, that doesn't mean he can't return. If you could get him on a $1-2M deal he could be an asset depending how players progress. He won't have many options next offseason as a DH-only, plus seems like a guy who would actually take a discount to stay even if offered more as he has clearly not lived up to his contract.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:42 pm

WOW!

The Oakland A's have signed Yoenis Cespedes!

4yr/$26M. Even bigger maybe is that he can become a free agent after those 4 seasons. wow....did not see that coming...

Not so sure about this deal for them. Even if they eventually move to San Jose....Cespedes could be gone by then...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Even with arbitration raises, the Tribe could have a payroll (without replacing lost free agents) under $55M potentially last year. I've made what I think are reasonable estimates for arby raises. Obviously things could change over the course of the year with how they play though but $55M could leave the Tribe (if they are open to raising payroll again) with $20M to spend. Would need a starter to replace Carmona and Lowe. Hopefully Carrasco coming back can replace one though. Would need a bat in the OF....that's where I'd look to spend money (Swisher!). Tribe can also look trade as they did earlier this offseason and avoid paying too much money in free agency.

Biggest thing for the Tribe is young guys need to step up though. Both ML players and the prospects. Need some of those high-ceiling guys to have good seasons in the minors IMO to see if you can't possibly use them to add a pitcher/bat next year.

Also, maybe a bit off-topic but I wouldn't completely write off Hanfer returning next year. Absolutely no way the Tribe picks up his option, but as we saw with Grady, that doesn't mean he can't return. If you could get him on a $1-2M deal he could be an asset depending how players progress. He won't have many options next offseason as a DH-only, plus seems like a guy who would actually take a discount to stay even if offered more as he has clearly not lived up to his contract.


I'd disagree that we need a starter to replace Carmona and Lowe. At some point, you've got to have faith in some of the guys we've got in AAA. If Masterson, Ubaldo and Tomlin all hold steady, there's no reason that we shouldn't expect that 2 guys out of Slowey, Huff, Carrasco, Barnes, Kluber, McAllister and Gomez won't be able to step up an be in the starting rotation next year.

I'd agree that we will likely need someone like a Nick Swisher next year. What I'd like to see is Hafner come back as you've suggested and also the Indians bring in a guy like Swisher or Berkman. Then, hopefully somebody between all the options the Indians have in OF/1B will have stepped up enough to contribute meaningfully and not have their position be a hole for the Indians.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:06 pm

Edible14 wrote:
I'd agree that we will likely need someone like a Nick Swisher next year. What I'd like to see is Hafner come back as you've suggested and also the Indians bring in a guy like Swisher or Berkman. Then, hopefully somebody between all the options the Indians have in OF/1B will have stepped up enough to contribute meaningfully and not have their position be a hole for the Indians.


I'm not so excited about bringing Hafner back...

1. I'm not so excited about a guy that is a DH only especially one that can't play 150 games per year. Just takes 1 spot on a 25 man roster. I like flexibility for a team in Cleveland's financial level.

2. I see 2 guys possibly moving into that position in Mills and Weglarz....if one them can be ready by 2013 then I'd be happy. They both could play a position if need be. I don't expect them to put up the same numbers as Hafner but I think they could produce in the same ball park and the $$$ saved could be used to shore up LF (or CF if Brantley can prove he's a lead-off hitter) or 1B.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:15 am

They were discussing the David Ortiz signing on ESPN yesterday and talking about how the era of the pure DH is over. The new thinking is to use the DH position to give position players a rest while keeping their bat in the lineup. No more having an every day DH who can't play in the field.

That being said, if Hafner hits .300 with a .380 OBP and 20 HRs, you have to consider bringing him back at a much reduced price, unless somebody like Mills has a monster season at Columbus.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:54 am

Prosecutor wrote:They were discussing the David Ortiz signing on ESPN yesterday and talking about how the era of the pure DH is over. The new thinking is to use the DH position to give position players a rest while keeping their bat in the lineup. No more having an every day DH who can't play in the field.

That being said, if Hafner hits .300 with a .380 OBP and 20 HRs, you have to consider bringing him back at a much reduced price, unless somebody like Mills has a monster season at Columbus.


certainly if he puts up those numbers and plays 150 games......if he only plays 120 games with no DL stints then it becomes a gray area. With only a 25 man roster (11 or 12 being pitchers), you need flexibility especially for a fragile team like the Indians who only had 2 players play more than 115 games last year (and those 2 both had extended DL stints in 2010). A DH only reduces that flexibility.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:21 am

KDLC was DFA'd to allow room on the 40 man roster for Casey Kotchman...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:53 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:KDLC was DFA'd to allow room on the 40 man roster for Casey Kotchman...


Not unexpected. If he's just a reliever now, then he's 4th on the pecking order to be a leftie out of the pen.

White Sox also signed former Indian Kosuke Fukudome, bringing him back to Chicago.

As for Hafner... it all depends on how well he hits. We can all agree that $13MM is too much for him, and he's unlikely to get a big contract in free agency. And... he's still one of the best hitters on this team. If that continues to be true, there may be some wisdom in bringing him back. When he's in the lineup, his wOBA has been over .350 for the last 3 years. There's a lot of things that will go into that - how well he performs this year, how well other people perform, what kind of contract offers he gets elsewhere, etc - but it's a distinct possibility that Hafner is brought back next year.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:06 pm

daingean wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
I'd agree that we will likely need someone like a Nick Swisher next year. What I'd like to see is Hafner come back as you've suggested and also the Indians bring in a guy like Swisher or Berkman. Then, hopefully somebody between all the options the Indians have in OF/1B will have stepped up enough to contribute meaningfully and not have their position be a hole for the Indians.


I'm not so excited about bringing Hafner back...

1. I'm not so excited about a guy that is a DH only especially one that can't play 150 games per year. Just takes 1 spot on a 25 man roster. I like flexibility for a team in Cleveland's financial level.

2. I see 2 guys possibly moving into that position in Mills and Weglarz....if one them can be ready by 2013 then I'd be happy. They both could play a position if need be. I don't expect them to put up the same numbers as Hafner but I think they could produce in the same ball park and the $$$ saved could be used to shore up LF (or CF if Brantley can prove he's a lead-off hitter) or 1B.



I'd LOVE to see one of them step up and take Hafner's spot....guess I'm just not that optimistic. What happens though if neither of them step up...and LaPorta struggles? Then you're possibly left with a huge hole at both 1B and DH. Hafner is not an ideal guy, but he does hit when healthy (at least righties).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
I'd LOVE to see one of them step up and take Hafner's spot....guess I'm just not that optimistic. What happens though if neither of them step up...and LaPorta struggles? Then you're possibly left with a huge hole at both 1B and DH. Hafner is not an ideal guy, but he does hit when healthy (at least righties).


If that happens then we have to go looking. I am just not going to like a DH only taking 1 of the 25 slots especially when he can only play 115 or so games. Call me old school but I'm not a fan of the DH anyway especially in the current economics of baseball as I think the rule certainly favors the big market/high payroll teams.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Hermie13 wrote:

I'd LOVE to see one of them step up and take Hafner's spot....guess I'm just not that optimistic. What happens though if neither of them step up...and LaPorta struggles? Then you're possibly left with a huge hole at both 1B and DH. Hafner is not an ideal guy, but he does hit when healthy (at least righties).


One internal option I can see replacing Hafner at DH is Shelly Duncan. I've really started to see him as a money player who's worked hard for a chance. I hope he gets a chance this year against LHP.
Even if Hafner has a solid season this year (@ 20+ HR), the chances that he would be able to repeat it next year (2013) in his age 36 season are slim to none. The injuries will have a cumulative effect.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:24 pm

I sort of agree with hermie with one small variation.. I'd love to see Weglarz and Mills become ML sluggers that create a real problem for the opposing pitchers/teams.. The difference, I don't want PRONK replaced.. These two guys can co-exist with Hafner in the lineup making a very strong/slugging 'heart of the order' (Weglarz in LF, Mills at 1B, Hafner DH, Santana C and Choo RF)..

w/r to Duncan.. he's a role player and possibly a platoon RH bat against lefties..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:33 pm

I understand the movement towards "DH by committee", but I don't think it fits the Indians. It works for a team like the Yankees, who have several aging sluggers (Jeter, ARod, Posada, etc.) who should be kept in the lineup but need days off. Same with the Red Sox, Angels and Tigers. The Indians, especially in 2013, are primarily a young team. There's no need to keep hitters like ACab, Choo, Kipnis, Chisenhall and Brantley out of the field, they can play everyday there and they don't need to DH. In any case, I 'm not sure any of them other than Choo and ACab are better hitters than Hafner. The only one bat I really see needing to take a break from the field but needing to be in the lineup still is Santana. And the Indians already have a good rotation with Santana/Hafner/Duncan at DH, so I don't think Hafner is in the way in that case.

If Weglarz steps up, I'm more than happy with him as the new DH. But there's a good possibility he doesn't, and that's where it becomes possible that Hafner could be retained in some way.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:39 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:

I'd LOVE to see one of them step up and take Hafner's spot....guess I'm just not that optimistic. What happens though if neither of them step up...and LaPorta struggles? Then you're possibly left with a huge hole at both 1B and DH. Hafner is not an ideal guy, but he does hit when healthy (at least righties).


One internal option I can see replacing Hafner at DH is Shelly Duncan. I've really started to see him as a money player who's worked hard for a chance. I hope he gets a chance this year against LHP.
Even if Hafner has a solid season this year (@ 20+ HR), the chances that he would be able to repeat it next year (2013) in his age 36 season are slim to none. The injuries will have a cumulative effect.


One ting to keep in mind though....Duncan will be arby elibible next year. He could cost more than Hafner (not counting the buyout).

I'm also not expecting 20 HRs from Pronk. I'm expecting around 12 HRs with a decent OBP in about 90 games. I'm not sold that Weglarz or Mills could replicate that in 2013. Maybe Duncan I guess but again, could be arby eligible and a non-tender candidate.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:01 pm

Indians reportedly trade Kelvin De La Cruz to the Texas Rangers
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:22 pm

The Tribe has reportedly inked Cristian Guzman-INF to a minor league deal. Guzman has 11 yrs MLB exp. with the Nats, Rangers, and Twins.

DLC was also sent to the Rangers for CA$H.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:35 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe has reportedly inked Cristian Guzman-INF to a minor league deal. Guzman has 11 yrs MLB exp. with the Nats, Rangers, and Twins.

DLC was also sent to the Rangers for CA$H.


Already in the other thread.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:31 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe has reportedly inked Cristian Guzman-INF to a minor league deal. Guzman has 11 yrs MLB exp. with the Nats, Rangers, and Twins.

DLC was also sent to the Rangers for CA$H.

Guzman was out of baseball all of last year. He claims it was a year off to heal his shoulder which required surgery after the 2010 season. Prior to that, he was a pretty good SS / MI'er. As a minor league signing, not a bad pickup as he offers both depth and ML experience as a SS.

Kelvin De La Cruz departure is a loss. Not many 23 year old tall lefties who have mid 90's fastballs at the AA level are around. The Rangers wisely picked up on his potential.. The return, cash considerations, usually amount to not much. Sorry to see his time in our wigwam come to an end...

:cry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:03 am

Regarding Hafner, things will be much clearer at the end of this season. If either Mills or LaPorta has a great year in Columbus/Cleveland, it would make more sense to use one of them to platoon with Santana as the DH in 2013. Duncan could also be in the picture. OTOH, if Pronk just keeps hitting .300 against RHP and neither Mills or LaPorta steps up, then it would make sense to offer Pronk a one-year deal at a reasonable number with incentives.

If Kotchman hits decently against LHP like he did last year, the Tribe won't want to play Santana at 1st base and bench Kotchman. It would be better to DH Santana when he needs a break and keep Kotchman's glove on the field.

There's also the remote chance Sizemore could re-sign with Cleveland if he has a successful season, and given his knee problems the Tribe may want to DH him occasionally to reduce the wear and tear. So between Mills, LaPorta, Duncan, Santana, and possibly Sizemore or Weglarz, there are a lot of DH possibilites besides Hafner. We'll see how it shakes out this year.

One final thought. I think Hafner could have a very good year if he's spotted correctly in the lineup. If he hits behind Choo and Santana, and Choo returns to his usual form, Pronk will get a lot of at-bats with runners on base. In that case defenses won't be able to use the shift against him and there will be a bigger hole on the right side if the 1st baseman is holding a runner. That will turn a lot of his loud ground ball outs against the shift into hits.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:09 pm

Prosecutor wrote:One final thought. I think Hafner could have a very good year if he's spotted correctly in the lineup. If he hits behind Choo and Santana, and Choo returns to his usual form, Pronk will get a lot of at-bats with runners on base. In that case defenses won't be able to use the shift against him and there will be a bigger hole on the right side if the 1st baseman is holding a runner. That will turn a lot of his loud ground ball outs against the shift into hits.


Teams can still shift with men on base. They do it all the time. Only difference is if there's a runner on 2nd base the 3B will need to remain near 3B (making a big hole at short). Kind of hurts the runner at 2nd though as the SS is playing right by the bag, which can result in shorter leads.

I do think Hafner can have a decent year. Expectations should be tempered while expecting only about 90 games or so. Hopefully he's used almost exclusively against righties as it has been hinted at.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:24 pm

I've seen a handful of posts/ entries at the MLB trade rumor site about guys being shifted over to the 60 day DL already (Boston, Toronto).

It got me to wondering, if other teams are able to start using the list, why can't the Indians?
If we know the Carlos Carasco is unavailable, why not move him over right now? Is there a downside to putting someone on the DL during spring training????
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby petes999 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:47 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I've seen a handful of posts/ entries at the MLB trade rumor site about guys being shifted over to the 60 day DL already (Boston, Toronto).

It got me to wondering, if other teams are able to start using the list, why can't the Indians?
If we know the Carlos Carasco is unavailable, why not move him over right now? Is there a downside to putting someone on the DL during spring training????


I was asking about this when we signed Kotchman ... but people thought the DL didn't open until a few days before opening day. Yet, I remembered Minn. or someone in our division doing this a few years ago (signing a FA and putting someone on 60-day DL near Spring Training). Sucks that we lost so many fringe pitchers for fringe over the hill players -- such as Judy and DLC for Lowe.... Yet, DLC would have been waived later when we had to cut someone to put Wheller or someone other minor league signing on the roster. Now, is losing Judy and DLC worth worrying about .. Probably not. But, we have very little room to make an error and if DLC finally figures it out and became a Hagadone (Loogy plus potential), there goes that room for error that a Det., NY, Bos has by signing high priced FAs to overcome their same errors in evaluating minor league talent.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Kelvin De La Cruz departure is a loss. Not many 23 year old tall lefties who have mid 90's fastballs at the AA level are around. The Rangers wisely picked up on his potential.. The return, cash considerations, usually amount to not much. Sorry to see his time in our wigwam come to an end...

:cry:


I agree. It's really a shame. De La Cruz is a very good talent. It's a shame to merely turn him around for cash. The cash the Indians got for DLC could probably only buy a mediocre 17-year old talent from Venezuela or the D.R.

I'm not saying that DLC will turn out to be good in the majors, but it's a shame that the Indians get virtually nothing for him and that his talents were not developed by the organization. I've seen him and think he's a 1st round kind of talent, so yeah, it's disappointing to see him go.

The guy that stands out on the 40-man roster is Danny Salazar. The Indians protected him from the Rule V for whatever reason. He looks like a decent prospect in his video and his numbers are underwhelming in the lowest of the minor league levels.

To me, protecting Salazar was a roster blunder by the Indians. It's extremely unlikely he would have been a Rule V pick and even further unlikely that he would have stuck on a major league roster this upcoming year.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of it. Neither DLC or Salazar will probably amount to anything in the major leagues, but it's just too bad to lose a talent like DLC.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:12 pm

Salazaar has shown some remarkable improvement over the last 12 months. His once mediocre fastball is now touching the mid upper nineties and sitting in the mid nineties. Add his work ethic, control, and mental toughness & this kind of improvement doesn't go unnoticed. In other words.. he would have been gone if he was DFA'd.. Juan Diaz SS, on the other hand, is the one I don't get..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:21 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Salazaar has shown some remarkable improvement over the last 12 months. His once mediocre fastball is now touching the mid upper nineties and sitting in the mid nineties. Add his work ethic, control, and mental toughness & this kind of improvement doesn't go unnoticed. In other words.. he would have been gone if he was DFA'd.. Juan Diaz SS, on the other hand, is the one I don't get..


I can't think of anyone (other then the tribe brass) who even considered Salazar a 40 man candidate at the time of the draft. We all will see why this coming season hopefully, but I really doubt he would have stuck with any team. But we will see perhaps this was a no-brainer and he is lights out in 2012. But this was no doubt a shocker when it happened - his lack of inclusion on top 10 list so far further illustrates my point.

As for Diaz - this was a protection move - I think he has potential. He is young and will improve, how much is debateable. I like him and think he will see ML action at some in his career. This roster move made far more sense for in regards to the Rule V draft then adding Salazar did IMO. Had a team picked him it would have forced the tribe to address SS at AAA/AAAA much more aggressively and in their baseball minds that ='s MONEY. Guzman and that other former Met guy wouldn't have cut it even when you're pinching pennies this hard. Given the course of this off-season money has been the leading factor in thier personal decisions and Diaz is as cheap as a ML back-up's back-up gets. If a team had picked Diaz it would have been to kick the tribe in the nuts. Not because he is a ML ready back-up (not far away though IMO) he would have come back but it would have cost the tribe money in some fashion i think. Diaz could end up getting bumped in 2012, he will have to produce to keep his spot. There are a lot of other guys around him who could easily snatch it from him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:56 am

criznit2009 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Salazaar has shown some remarkable improvement over the last 12 months. His once mediocre fastball is now touching the mid upper nineties and sitting in the mid nineties. Add his work ethic, control, and mental toughness & this kind of improvement doesn't go unnoticed. In other words.. he would have been gone if he was DFA'd.. Juan Diaz SS, on the other hand, is the one I don't get..


I can't think of anyone (other then the tribe brass) who even considered Salazar a 40 man candidate at the time of the draft. We all will see why this coming season hopefully, but I really doubt he would have stuck with any team. But we will see perhaps this was a no-brainer and he is lights out in 2012. But this was no doubt a shocker when it happened - his lack of inclusion on top 10 list so far further illustrates my point.

As for Diaz - this was a protection move - I think he has potential. He is young and will improve, how much is debateable. I like him and think he will see ML action at some in his career. This roster move made far more sense for in regards to the Rule V draft then adding Salazar did IMO. Had a team picked him it would have forced the tribe to address SS at AAA/AAAA much more aggressively and in their baseball minds that ='s MONEY. Guzman and that other former Met guy wouldn't have cut it even when you're pinching pennies this hard. Given the course of this off-season money has been the leading factor in thier personal decisions and Diaz is as cheap as a ML back-up's back-up gets. If a team had picked Diaz it would have been to kick the tribe in the nuts. Not because he is a ML ready back-up (not far away though IMO) he would have come back but it would have cost the tribe money in some fashion i think. Diaz could end up getting bumped in 2012, he will have to produce to keep his spot. There are a lot of other guys around him who could easily snatch it from him.

Fully agree.. Salazar's inclusion onto the 40 man roster was mildly surprising and, with only a handful of starts at low A ball, staying on a ML roster would have been a huge stretch. The top 10 lists and other vehicles like that, tbh, they're more fluff and fanfare than anything else. The Indians front office has to like this kid & there's a lot to like. Best guess, he'll begin the 2012 season in Zebullon ! (doesn't that sound funny.. are we going to informally call the Mudcats the Z-Tribe?).

I still don't get the Diaz inclusion.. If, for example, the Indians were to lose Asdrubal, Jason Donald would be an 'adequate' replacement.. Even in a pinch, Jose Lopez or Lonnie Chisenhall could fill in at SS for a few days.. Tony Wolters, who I think is being converted (and should be) to 2B, is as prepared as Diaz. etc.. In other words..I still don't get it his inclusion. Maybe I don't I don't want to.. or I didn't want to see KdlC depart for roster space needs.. <shrugs>..
GeronimoSon
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