RSS Twitter Facebook YouTube
Expand Menu

Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:45 pm

ACrank wrote:Basically you are counting on Donald producing as much as an average LF (since Kipnis = Kipnis). Or you are counting on Donald + Kipnis devevelopment being equal or greater than Brantley + Kipnis (which wasn't what you said originally, but that's ok). Forgive me if I don't agree with you? I agree that Kipnis is far from a gold glover at second, and I can even understand the necessity of improving infield defense with the sinkerballers on the Indians staff. But this isn't Miguel Cabrera at third base, and Kipnis bat in LF just profiles as average or below average. I doubt Donald's presence at second would make up for the difference between Kipnis in LF and an average LF.

What I originally said was that the Nats were said to be interested in dealing Lannan for a CF, that we could maybe trade Brantley for Lannan. The implication was meant to be that Donald was equal to Brantley offensively. Debateable, but that's what I believe. Given that(offensive parity of the two positions combined), improvement in the IF defense with comparable defense in LF(Kip was a good defensive OF in college, personal observation), the net addition is Lannan, the only liability is having to replace the UIF. Unless you were expecting us to replace Brantley with an "average LF" as I'm sure you'd agree that Brantley is not that offensively.

You don't have to agree with me as long as our relative positions are clear. :friends:
Rocky55
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1649
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ACrank » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:46 pm

Your position was clear from the beginning. I disagree, strongly, with the idea that Donald can out produce an average LF, let alone Brantley, and have said that a few times now. Frankly, I think a few posters here are overrating Donald.
ACrank
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:54 pm

ACrank wrote:Your position was clear from the beginning. I disagree, strongly, with the idea that Donald can out produce an average LF, let alone Brantley, and have said that a few times now. Frankly, I think a few posters here are overrating Donald.

Again, I didn't say that Donald could out produce an average LF. I said that Donald could hit as good as Brantley. Brantley < an average LF.
Rocky55
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1649
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:11 pm

I think a healthy Jason Donald could post numbers equivalent to Brantley. His injury last year lead to the emergence of Hanahan - good. However - a healthy Jason Donald is a very good player.
Bearcatbob
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:10 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:45 am

I don't know what this has to do with acquisition targets but Donald is a valuable player against LHP who will likely be an average OF. He looks to me like a platoon candidate that could replace any of the three OFs and two IFs depending on the final roster. Donald is a little old to expect huge improvement in generally weak performance against RHP, IMO.
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
ACrank wrote:Your position was clear from the beginning. I disagree, strongly, with the idea that Donald can out produce an average LF, let alone Brantley, and have said that a few times now. Frankly, I think a few posters here are overrating Donald.

Again, I didn't say that Donald could out produce an average LF. I said that Donald could hit as good as Brantley. Brantley < an average LF.


I agree that Brantley is below average for a LFer. Agree partially that Donald could hit as good as Brantley, in that both are platoon guys right now. Donald would definitely outhit Brantley when a lefty was on the mound....however, Brantley would out hit Donald when there's a righty on the mound. Can't really compare the two IMO. I'd take Brantley personally as we will be facing a lot more righties.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:01 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
I agree that Brantley is below average for a LFer. Agree partially that Donald could hit as good as Brantley, in that both are platoon guys right now. Donald would definitely outhit Brantley when a lefty was on the mound....however, Brantley would out hit Donald when there's a righty on the mound. Can't really compare the two IMO. I'd take Brantley personally as we will be facing a lot more righties.


Brantley's value as a left fielder is if he can hit lead off effectively. With that respect, he needs to utilize his speed more and get on base (and score runs). If he cannot develop into a top of the line lead off hitter then his value is a reserve OF. If he can either turn into a GG CF or a top of the line lead off hitter then Brantley will have value to the Tribe. I'm not asking for a Ricky Henderson type output (or even a Kenny Lofton) but for something better than we've gotten.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ACrank » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:31 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
ACrank wrote:Your position was clear from the beginning. I disagree, strongly, with the idea that Donald can out produce an average LF, let alone Brantley, and have said that a few times now. Frankly, I think a few posters here are overrating Donald.

Again, I didn't say that Donald could out produce an average LF. I said that Donald could hit as good as Brantley. Brantley < an average LF.


The problem is, in order to make your moves work, you have to count on Donald to outproduce an average LF.
ACrank
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:33 am

In 2011, the 'Average ML Left Fielder' hit at a .262 pace while getting 310 plate appearances with an OBP of .323 and a slugging percentage of .384. (.707 OPS). This includes all 64 players who played LF during 2011. Both Jason Donald and Michael Brantley are more than capable of reaching these numbers.
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:39 pm

ACrank wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
ACrank wrote:Your position was clear from the beginning. I disagree, strongly, with the idea that Donald can out produce an average LF, let alone Brantley, and have said that a few times now. Frankly, I think a few posters here are overrating Donald.

Again, I didn't say that Donald could out produce an average LF. I said that Donald could hit as good as Brantley. Brantley < an average LF.


The problem is, in order to make your moves work, you have to count on Donald to outproduce an average LF.


No, in order for his moves to work Donald would only have to equal Brantley's production. His move has NOTHING to do with the "average LFer". Heck, you could argue that for his move to work Donald would just have to be somewhat similar to Brantley, since you could argue Lannan would outproduce Slowey in the rotation. So

Personally would not do the move but has nothing to do with Donald. I'm just not sold on Lannan. Kid has been solid at times, but was demoted to AAA in 2010. His stuff isn't that great and as recently as 2009 his K-rate was under 4. IMO he would still be an upgrade at the #5 spot, but think Brantley is still more valuable as we need a guy that can hit righties.

Could all be a moot point of the rumors of the Angels and Boujos are true. Vastly superior defender, way better baserunner, better hitter to this point, and I believe has an extra year of control over Brantley.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:In 2011, the 'Average ML Left Fielder' hit at a .262 pace while getting 310 plate appearances with an OBP of .323 and a slugging percentage of .384. (.707 OPS). This includes all 64 players who played LF during 2011. Both Jason Donald and Michael Brantley are more than capable of reaching these numbers.


That's not a very good way to come up with the average at a position...
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:30 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:In 2011, the 'Average ML Left Fielder' hit at a .262 pace while getting 310 plate appearances with an OBP of .323 and a slugging percentage of .384. (.707 OPS). This includes all 64 players who played LF during 2011. Both Jason Donald and Michael Brantley are more than capable of reaching these numbers.


That's not a very good way to come up with the average at a position...


The comment was "the average ML LF'er".. The statistical values that the average LF produces is stated Would anyone be "thrilled" with an average LF who produces those numbers?.. not really.
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:09 am

Now I can better understand the Slowey acquisition. Word is Rich Harden had another arm surgery & he will miss 2012.

I think he might be worth a flyer as a 2 yr deal so we have him for 2013 (build in Derek Lowe's replacement) but one has to believe that other teams can be thinking in the same manner.
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:52 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Now I can better understand the Slowey acquisition. Word is Rich Harden had another arm surgery & he will miss 2012.

I think he might be worth a flyer as a 2 yr deal so we have him for 2013 (build in Derek Lowe's replacement) but one has to believe that other teams can be thinking in the same manner.


Mad... it was a shoulder capsule tear that was repaired via surgery.. that kind of injury is almost always "iffy" even after surgery. Some pitchers can come back from it.. for others, it's the end of their career...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:05 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Now I can better understand the Slowey acquisition. Word is Rich Harden had another arm surgery & he will miss 2012.

I think he might be worth a flyer as a 2 yr deal so we have him for 2013 (build in Derek Lowe's replacement) but one has to believe that other teams can be thinking in the same manner.


Mad... it was a shoulder capsule tear that was repaired via surgery.. that kind of injury is almost always "iffy" even after surgery. Some pitchers can come back from it.. for others, it's the end of their career...


Pitchers with any Shoulder injuries scare me. TJ is not so scary as guys come back but shoulders....ugh....

If it's a minor league deal with low salary but incentives......may consider that.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:37 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Now I can better understand the Slowey acquisition. Word is Rich Harden had another arm surgery & he will miss 2012.

I think he might be worth a flyer as a 2 yr deal so we have him for 2013 (build in Derek Lowe's replacement) but one has to believe that other teams can be thinking in the same manner.


Mad... it was a shoulder capsule tear that was repaired via surgery.. that kind of injury is almost always "iffy" even after surgery. Some pitchers can come back from it.. for others, it's the end of their career...


Pitchers with any Shoulder injuries scare me. TJ is not so scary as guys come back but shoulders....ugh....

If it's a minor league deal with low salary but incentives......may consider that.

It isn't a terrible idea but I think time and history work against Harden. He has only thrown over 150 IP once and he is over 30. He has had some good periods but his command has not been impressive IMO. I just don't see him replacing Lowe's innings under the best of circumstances. Personally, Carrasco looks more likely as the Lowe replacement from what I see. He is considerably younger with equivalent or better pitches and an injury that is generally thought to be an easier and more complete recovery. Like any team, the Indians cannot have too much pitching but I would rather wait and see how our upper minor pitching developes. Even with the arb raises next year, the Indians will likely have at least $20-25M to spend in the market if any fans show up in 2012. Although it isn't written in stone, I would think the Indians could get equivalent performance from a CF, DH and 1B as the current starters with that money and have some left over. Just my thoughts. :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:50 pm

Harden is going to miss the 2012 season. Saw Dr. James Andrews the other day. Kiss that idea good-bye.
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:03 am

A.Zajac wrote:Harden is going to miss the 2012 season. Saw Dr. James Andrews the other day. Kiss that idea good-bye.


My jaw dropped when I read that. Not because I'm suprised, but just that he's hurt again...sheesh!
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
GoTribe028
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:12 am

GoTribe028 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Harden is going to miss the 2012 season. Saw Dr. James Andrews the other day. Kiss that idea good-bye.


My jaw dropped when I read that. Not because I'm suprised, but just that he's hurt again...sheesh!


Once a guy has a shoulder issue they continue to have issues. Shoulder surgeries don't cure the problem they just cure the symptoms. In someways it's like knees and ankles.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:24 pm

I'm starting to get a warmer feeling about signing Manny Ramirez to a minimal contract...thougths? :dunno:
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:36 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:I'm starting to get a warmer feeling about signing Manny Ramirez to a minimal contract...thougths? :dunno:


Depends on the amount. We know some of the things we will get from him (esp. the loony side) and there is potential for him to be a plus bat (but that is really a crap shot).

EDIT: it all comes down to how Acta. One thing is both are Latino and they may help them relate to each other (better than any of Manny's prior managers).
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:10 pm

He might be a feel-good story for some nostalgic tribe fans, similar to the way Lofton was in 2007, but I'm doubting he's a fit. He's really a DH only at this point, which means he'd have to split time with Hafner (so long as Hafner's healthy). You could assume that by the time he's done serving his suspension, he'll be needed... but I'm not really itching to waste money and a 40 man spot on that sort of hypothetical.

That being said, if he signs somewhere and Hafner ends up hurt, he'd be a good trade candidate.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:18 pm

He wouldn't be a bad insurance policy in case Hafner is on the disabled list when his suspension is up. He could go to Arizona and spend the first few months getting into playing shape while serving his suspension. It could be like the Nick Johnson signing last year. Although after missing a season and a half, turning 40, and no more ped's, it could be questionable if he has anything left.
ClevelandBlues
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:49 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Edible14 wrote:He might be a feel-good story for some nostalgic tribe fans, similar to the way Lofton was in 2007, but I'm doubting he's a fit. He's really a DH only at this point, which means he'd have to split time with Hafner (so long as Hafner's healthy). You could assume that by the time he's done serving his suspension, he'll be needed... but I'm not really itching to waste money and a 40 man spot on that sort of hypothetical.

That being said, if he signs somewhere and Hafner ends up hurt, he'd be a good trade candidate.


I hear ya. Problem is not the 40 but the 25. How can you keep 2 DH-only's on a 25 man roster. I wouldn't trade anything for Manny though. Thing is you never know what will happen between opening day and mid June.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:34 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:He wouldn't be a bad insurance policy in case Hafner is on the disabled list when his suspension is up. He could go to Arizona and spend the first few months getting into playing shape while serving his suspension. It could be like the Nick Johnson signing last year. Although after missing a season and a half, turning 40, and no more ped's, it could be questionable if he has anything left.


I somewhat doubt that Manny Ramirez would take a minor league deal like Johnson took, though. Further, I'm not sure that suspension could count as being served if he's in the minors (anyone know how that works?).
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:43 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:I'm starting to get a warmer feeling about signing Manny Ramirez to a minimal contract...thougths? :dunno:


Just don't see a fit. Don't see how he helps a club carrying 2 DH's that can't play the field, and another DH (Shelley Duncan) that can only be hidden in the field from time to time.

If it were a minor league contract, then yeah, what the hell right? Just don't see it I guess. Still, stranger things have happened.

:drinks:
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
GoTribe028
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:19 pm

Sorry... double post.
Last edited by Pork Chop Pough on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Pork Chop Pough
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:19 pm

Edible14 wrote:I somewhat doubt that Manny Ramirez would take a minor league deal like Johnson took, though. Further, I'm not sure that suspension could count as being served if he's in the minors (anyone know how that works?).

MLB players can play up to 10 minor league games nearing the end of their suspension. It's effectively a rehab assignment, as the MLBPA lobbied that the player is being penalized for more than 50 games if he doesn't have the opportunity to get his timing/conditioning back prior to being reinstated. This got some attention when the Dodgers used it on Manny the first time he was suspended.

I don't see a fit. Ramirez could be a nice option to replace an injured Hafner, but the suspension doesn't allow for short-term planning like that. Instead he'd start out as a burden on the 40-man and then transition to a likely burden on the 25-man as well. With all the spring training NRIs who could potentially stick around in Columbus, I'd rather keep the 40-man more flexible and potentially take a chance on the best of them if the need arises.
User avatar
Pork Chop Pough
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:29 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Edible14 wrote:I somewhat doubt that Manny Ramirez would take a minor league deal like Johnson took, though. Further, I'm not sure that suspension could count as being served if he's in the minors (anyone know how that works?).

MLB players can play up to 10 minor league games nearing the end of their suspension. It's effectively a rehab assignment, as the MLBPA lobbied that the player is being penalized for more than 50 games if he doesn't have the opportunity to get his timing/conditioning back prior to being reinstated. This got some attention when the Dodgers used it on Manny the first time he was suspended.

I don't see a fit. Ramirez could be a nice option to replace an injured Hafner, but the suspension doesn't allow for short-term planning like that. Instead he'd start out as a burden on the 40-man and then transition to a likely burden on the 25-man as well. With all the spring training NRIs who could potentially stick around in Columbus, I'd rather keep the 40-man more flexible and potentially take a chance on the best of them if the need arises.



Only way I sign Manny - 1 million dollars at most and he donates at least 10% to Cleveland charities. See what kind of deal he proposes to the tribe situation when it comes to Manny.

Could someone refresh me on the details of Hafners contract - I know the tribe has an option they 100% will not use unless we win the W.S but even then - anyway - If he is having a good season and could actually be traded, what happens with his option? Could it essentially render him untradeable?I think this would have been talked about by now if that was the case but just want to make sure :rose:
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:28 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Could someone refresh me on the details of Hafners contract - I know the tribe has an option they 100% will not use unless we win the W.S but even then - anyway - If he is having a good season and could actually be traded, what happens with his option? Could it essentially render him untradeable?I think this would have been talked about by now if that was the case but just want to make sure :rose:


His option does not vest or become a player option like Ubaldo's did or like Grazy's would have...if that's what you're asking? It does make him harder to trade as the team getting him would be required to either pay him the $2.75M buyout (or lose their minds and pay him $13M).
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Edible14 wrote:I somewhat doubt that Manny Ramirez would take a minor league deal like Johnson took, though. Further, I'm not sure that suspension could count as being served if he's in the minors (anyone know how that works?).

MLB players can play up to 10 minor league games nearing the end of their suspension. It's effectively a rehab assignment, as the MLBPA lobbied that the player is being penalized for more than 50 games if he doesn't have the opportunity to get his timing/conditioning back prior to being reinstated. This got some attention when the Dodgers used it on Manny the first time he was suspended.

I don't see a fit. Ramirez could be a nice option to replace an injured Hafner, but the suspension doesn't allow for short-term planning like that. Instead he'd start out as a burden on the 40-man and then transition to a likely burden on the 25-man as well. With all the spring training NRIs who could potentially stick around in Columbus, I'd rather keep the 40-man more flexible and potentially take a chance on the best of them if the need arises.


Well you could potentially sign him to a minor-league deal with an April 1 opt out. Could then wait to add him to the 40-man til you put Carrasco on the 60-day. Don't have to pay him then while suspended, plus he would not be on the 40-man (suspended players don't count, same as guys on the restricted list). Would then re-open that 40-spot for a guy like Wheeler right away. Would basically be an insurance policy for Hafner come late May.


That said...don't think it's happening.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:38 pm

The first value being bandied about for signing Yoenis Cespedes appears to be coming in at:

..Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald (via Twitter) hears that the Marlins offered Cespedes less than $40MM.


So, between $ 6 1/2 MM - $ 7 MM per year for six years for what amounts to an approximate top ten prospect that is anywhere from immediately ready to play in the ML's (least likely) to a no more than a couple of years away.. Now comes the question, is it time to gamble on a less than sure thing?.. or not...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ACrank » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:18 pm

i am assuming it will be posted elsewhere - but the A's signed Yoenis Cespedes for 4/36 - kind of shocking, less then what was being rumored....
ACrank
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:21 pm

I really like the Indians picking up Jon Garland on a minor league deal. If he's healthy and passes the physical it's a good pickup IMO.
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
GoTribe028
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:47 pm

ACrank wrote:i am assuming it will be posted elsewhere - but the A's signed Yoenis Cespedes for 4/36 - kind of shocking, less then what was being rumored....


Less years.. more per year.. The A's are no doubt looking at this acquisition from two perspectives:

1. Yoenis becomes a star who's contract is superceded by his results..
2. Yoenis becomes a pretty good player who can be traded at the trading deadline in 2013 for a boat load of prospects.

Either way, the A's win...good foresight on the A's ownership...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:54 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
ACrank wrote:i am assuming it will be posted elsewhere - but the A's signed Yoenis Cespedes for 4/36 - kind of shocking, less then what was being rumored....


Less years.. more per year.. The A's are no doubt looking at this acquisition from two perspectives:

1. Yoenis becomes a star who's contract is superceded by his results..
2. Yoenis becomes a pretty good player who can be traded at the trading deadline in 2013 for a boat load of prospects.

Either way, the A's win...good foresight on the A's ownership...


Except if Yoenis turns into the second coming of Alex Escobar (which is possible - I'd give it a 25% chance of happening) then the A's are hampered with his $9mil per year for 4 years.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:14 am

Following the AJ Burnett saga between the Yankees and Pirates, a small blurb was posted in the New York Post (yeah, I know, another source that has warts and festering puss filled pimples all over it) that suggested:

..It was possible the Yankees and Indians could widen the trade as a way to bridge the gap and/or to move a better class of prospect for the Yankees....


What this sounds like is the Indians would essentially buy the difference or more than the difference between what the Pirates want to pay and what the Yankees will accept in the form of a prospect or prospects for the acquisition of AJ Burnett

Put more simply:

Pirates get: AJ Burnett & $ XX MM from the Yankees + Cash from the Indians (or a PTBNL in lieu of Cash?)

Yankees get: One "more alluring" Pirates Prospect + an Indians Prospect/Player

Indians get: One Pirates Prospect + One Yankees Prospect

When you look at the machinations of a trade like this.. it always seems as if it's way too complicated to happen. The Indians completed a similar trade when the Mariners and Mets were at a impasse in trade negotiations (I believe it was the JJ Putz trade from the M's to the Mets) not so many years ago, so, it's not a unique approach. The only thing left to do is..fill in the names.. While the Indians have "swung and missed" on a few FA "RH Bats" during this Hot Stove season (Beltran, Cespedes, others), this opportunity might allow the Indians to acquire the kind of "bat/prospect" that fills one of their their need(s).

FWIW.. the NYY's may have interest in someone like Ezequiel Carrera / Aaron Cunningham / Russ Canzler.. The Pirates would be more than thrilled to get a ML ready SP like one of the guys at AAA (Z-Mac, Gomez, Huff, etc) or even someone who has fallen out of favor with the club (like Matt LaPorta) with the idea that the higher the quality of the player / prospect the Indians give up, the greater the return from the two clubs..

Thoughts...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:18 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
ACrank wrote:i am assuming it will be posted elsewhere - but the A's signed Yoenis Cespedes for 4/36 - kind of shocking, less then what was being rumored....


Less years.. more per year.. The A's are no doubt looking at this acquisition from two perspectives:

1. Yoenis becomes a star who's contract is superceded by his results..
2. Yoenis becomes a pretty good player who can be traded at the trading deadline in 2013 for a boat load of prospects.

Either way, the A's win...good foresight on the A's ownership...


Except if Yoenis turns into the second coming of Alex Escobar (which is possible - I'd give it a 25% chance of happening) then the A's are hampered with his $9mil per year for 4 years.


Yeah this is a big gamble by the A's that very easily could blow up in their face. Even if they move into a new park and are able to spend more, there's no guarantee that they can re-sign Cespedes. Marlins spent big, but even their budget wasn't unlimited (if it was, Pujols would be in Miami). In that division, not sure they can compete in the next 4 years...though anything is possible.

At least it was only money. Not like when they traded Carlos Gonzalez for Holliday (then turned that into Brett Wallace...eek).
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Would be an awful trade for the Pirates. Why would they trade a premier prospect and another prospect for a reduced salary AJ Burnett? And why the heck do you think the Indians have money to spend to lower somebody else's costs? What the Pirates could use in such a trade is an additional young arm to help the back end of the rotation. So, I give a modified scenario:

Yankees get: Justin Wilson (P) from the Pirates, Raffy Perez from the Indians

Indians get: Stetson Allie (P) from the Pirates

Pirates get: AJ Burnett (with a good chunk of salary picked up by NYY), David Huff

Not sure that's a good trade for the Pirates still, but it works better for the Indians and probably the Yankees. The Indians trade from a position of strength (SP), and deal off a lefty reliever that will be getting expensive soon, and who can be replaced by Nick Hagadone. The Pirates instantly improve their rotation, and only have to deal two of their most question-marked prospects. Allie was rumored to be a target for the Indians in that draft, and was taken a few spots ahead of their 2nd round pick. He's got great stuff (velocity reportedly touches 100), but he's got third pitch and control issues, which a lot of guys his age do, and could ultimately end up being only a reliever. Wilson is a work in progress at AAA, but still has some potential. He could be useful as depth for the Yankees for this season, and maybe he helps them down the line. The prize for the Yankees is Raffy, who is probably an upgrade over Boone Logan as "the lefty", and at the very least gives them a good second lefty for the 'pen which they currently don't have.

Ultimately, the Indians lose some depth, but gain a very interesting prospect and some salary relief. Some people will probably complain about dealing 2 major league ready guys for a prospect, though. Even if those guys are David Huff and Raffy.
The Yankees rid themselves of AJ, and end up with a good reliever who they can afford to keep around
The Pirates cash in some prospect chips and get two guys that can help stabilize their rotation. They probably get the worst end in this deal, though. It's probably most unrealistic for their end of it.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:06 pm

Edible14 wrote:Would be an awful trade for the Pirates. Why would they trade a premier prospect and another prospect for a reduced salary AJ Burnett? And why the heck do you think the Indians have money to spend to lower somebody else's costs? What the Pirates could use in such a trade is an additional young arm to help the back end of the rotation. So, I give a modified scenario:

Yankees get: Justin Wilson (P) from the Pirates, Raffy Perez from the Indians

Indians get: Stetson Allie (P) from the Pirates

Pirates get: AJ Burnett (with a good chunk of salary picked up by NYY), David Huff

Not sure that's a good trade for the Pirates still, but it works better for the Indians and probably the Yankees. The Indians trade from a position of strength (SP), and deal off a lefty reliever that will be getting expensive soon, and who can be replaced by Nick Hagadone. The Pirates instantly improve their rotation, and only have to deal two of their most question-marked prospects. Allie was rumored to be a target for the Indians in that draft, and was taken a few spots ahead of their 2nd round pick. He's got great stuff (velocity reportedly touches 100), but he's got third pitch and control issues, which a lot of guys his age do, and could ultimately end up being only a reliever. Wilson is a work in progress at AAA, but still has some potential. He could be useful as depth for the Yankees for this season, and maybe he helps them down the line. The prize for the Yankees is Raffy, who is probably an upgrade over Boone Logan as "the lefty", and at the very least gives them a good second lefty for the 'pen which they currently don't have.

Ultimately, the Indians lose some depth, but gain a very interesting prospect and some salary relief. Some people will probably complain about dealing 2 major league ready guys for a prospect, though. Even if those guys are David Huff and Raffy.
The Yankees rid themselves of AJ, and end up with a good reliever who they can afford to keep around
The Pirates cash in some prospect chips and get two guys that can help stabilize their rotation. They probably get the worst end in this deal, though. It's probably most unrealistic for their end of it.


So the Indians trade Huff and Rafael Perez for Stenson Allie? No thanks. I want nothing to do with this deal at all anyway...
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:10 pm

The proposed Hafner-Burnett deal seems to have some life, but remains a longshot. If we take money out of the discussion, what would it mean for the team on the field?

It makes the back of the Indians SP very deep and experienced, but not overpowering. I'm not sure if this is an area that we really need to improve. Still, veteran pitchers should not be overlooked if you hope to contend.

Also, the Indians would begin life without Travis Hafner. Hard to believe, but this will be his 10th season with the tribe. Moving him would open up a roster spot for somebody. At DH we might use a platoon of Duncan (vs. LHP), Weglarz? (vs. RHP). Whoever it is, it would seem they would also be able to play in the field when needed. (my biggest complaint with pronk).

In the end, I'm not sure if this makes us measurably better.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:31 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The proposed Hafner-Burnett deal seems to have some life, but remains a longshot. If we take money out of the discussion, what would it mean for the team on the field?

It makes the back of the Indians SP very deep and experienced, but not overpowering. I'm not sure if this is an area that we really need to improve. Still, veteran pitchers should not be overlooked if you hope to contend.

Also, the Indians would begin life without Travis Hafner. Hard to believe, but this will be his 10th season with the tribe. Moving him would open up a roster spot for somebody. At DH we might use a platoon of Duncan (vs. LHP), Weglarz? (vs. RHP). Whoever it is, it would seem they would also be able to play in the field when needed. (my biggest complaint with pronk).

In the end, I'm not sure if this makes us measurably better.


Me, personally, I think it wouldn't make sense. Why? Our offense was a bigger concern last year. We had trouble generating power and runs in general. In the playoffs, your rotation shrinks to the top three... maybe four. Right now, if we went to the playoffs, you would think Ubaldo, Masterson, Tomlin, and probably Lowe would go. I don't think adding AJ would change things. So essentially, you'd pay for a starter who wouldn't provide huge dividends in the playoffs. Meh.
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:40 pm

I don't see how adding a pitcher whose ERA has been over 5.00 the last two years is going to upgrade the rotation. I'd rather have Jeanmar Gomez, Huff, McAlister, Barnes, or Garland in the #5 spot and keep Hafner. Who would replace him, Duncan? LaPorta? One of the minor leaguer outfielders we just acquired - Neal, Cunningham, Canzler?

The rationale as I understand it was that Burnett let the pressure of playing in NYC get to him and a move to a smaller pond would allow him to relax and his natural talent would re-emerge. Well, if he's the kind of player who doesn't do well on the big stage, then trade him to a team that has no playoff aspirations like the Brewers or Pirates.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:07 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how adding a pitcher whose ERA has been over 5.00 the last two years is going to upgrade the rotation. I'd rather have Jeanmar Gomez, Huff, McAlister, Barnes, or Garland in the #5 spot and keep Hafner. Who would replace him, Duncan? LaPorta? One of the minor leaguer outfielders we just acquired - Neal, Cunningham, Canzler?

The rationale as I understand it was that Burnett let the pressure of playing in NYC get to him and a move to a smaller pond would allow him to relax and his natural talent would re-emerge. Well, if he's the kind of player who doesn't do well on the big stage, then trade him to a team that has no playoff aspirations like the Brewers or Pirates.


+1
If you look at the splits, Burnett's ERA has always been much better at home with the Yankees than on the road. So much for the pressure. I don't think this will happen. But if NY wants to include another player, I'll listen.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:53 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how adding a pitcher whose ERA has been over 5.00 the last two years is going to upgrade the rotation. I'd rather have Jeanmar Gomez, Huff, McAlister, Barnes, or Garland in the #5 spot and keep Hafner. Who would replace him, Duncan? LaPorta? One of the minor leaguer outfielders we just acquired - Neal, Cunningham, Canzler?

The rationale as I understand it was that Burnett let the pressure of playing in NYC get to him and a move to a smaller pond would allow him to relax and his natural talent would re-emerge. Well, if he's the kind of player who doesn't do well on the big stage, then trade him to a team that has no playoff aspirations like the Brewers or Pirates.


It wasn't about his ERA, it was the fact that he's thrown 185+ innings each of the past 4 seasons. I know some on here think that is overrated but the Indians value it highly. They lost Carmona and have added Slowey...who is not an inning eater. Not a fan of Burnett either,but can understand somewhat the Tribe's interest...or at least why they inquired.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:57 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The proposed Hafner-Burnett deal seems to have some life, but remains a longshot. If we take money out of the discussion, what would it mean for the team on the field?

It makes the back of the Indians SP very deep and experienced, but not overpowering. I'm not sure if this is an area that we really need to improve. Still, veteran pitchers should not be overlooked if you hope to contend.

Also, the Indians would begin life without Travis Hafner. Hard to believe, but this will be his 10th season with the tribe. Moving him would open up a roster spot for somebody. At DH we might use a platoon of Duncan (vs. LHP), Weglarz? (vs. RHP). Whoever it is, it would seem they would also be able to play in the field when needed. (my biggest complaint with pronk).

In the end, I'm not sure if this makes us measurably better.


Only way this deal would have made sense for the Indians IMO is if the Yanks ate a good chunk of money in 2013 and the Tribe had a secondary deal for a guy like Damon in the works to replace Hafner. I don't think the Tribe would be comfortable going with Duncan as a full-time DH...nor would Wegz even be in the discussion early on.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:49 am

Regardless.. the AJ Burnett Saga as an acquisition target by the Indians appears to be nothing more than the NYY's sending out 'feelers' to generate a bidding pool.. This limited interpretation of the effort has failed.. The Indians don't want an overpaid gopher ball throwing headcase in their starting rotation... (well.. perhaps another one..and you can decide who is being referenced..)
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:13 pm

Now that Yoenis Cespedes has agreed to a contract (signing is pending physical and obtaining P1 Visa), the Oakland A's appear to have gone from a dearth of outfielders due to FA departures to a glut of outfielders.. As of now.. it looks like the A's have at least eight guys more than they need for the three starting spots:

Projected A's Starting OF:
RF Josh Reddick (LH)
CF Coco Crisp (SH)
LF Seth Smith (LH)

Backup/Reserves (listed alphabetically): Brandon Allen (LH), Chris Carter (RH), Yoenis Cespedes (RH), Michael Choice (RH), Colin Cowgil (RH), Johnny Gomes (RH), Jermaine Mitchell (LH), & Michael Taylor (RH)

It looks like Seth Smith will not see many PA's versus LHP's as his history has shown he's dreadful against southpaws. Neither Michael Choice nor Yoenis Cespedes are currently on the A's 40 man roster which currently stands at the 40 man limit. The A's may have to do something about this roster situation.

Does this glut of OF'ers create an opportunity for the Indians to make a deal with the A's?.. The A's appear to have a need where the Indians have depth in at AAA: i.e. ML ready MOR/BOR SP's & RP's. Personally, I'd love to see either Michael Taylor and / or Chris Carter with Chief Wahoo on his sleeve..Would David Huff interest them?

Thoughts? :dunno:
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3930
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:27 pm

Chris Carter is a 25-year-old first baseman with no big league experience whose minor league numbers are not as good as LaPorta's. Michael Taylor is 26 years old and hit .272/.816 in AAA last year. He's a 6'5", 256 pound left fielder. I don't see how he's better than Neal or Duncan, much less Brantley.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:54 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Chris Carter is a 25-year-old first baseman with no big league experience whose minor league numbers are not as good as LaPorta's. Michael Taylor is 26 years old and hit .272/.816 in AAA last year. He's a 6'5", 256 pound left fielder. I don't see how he's better than Neal or Duncan, much less Brantley.

+1. The Indians already have far better pickups than these two IMO. Do we really need more 1B/LF in Columbus? I don't care much about Huff but trading him for Oakland's losers is hardly a prescription for winning baseball. :wacko:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Beyond The Minors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron