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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:14 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
... would not be shocked if Tomlin is in AAA ....
Well, that puts Brantley, Chisenhall, Tomlin, LaPorta and maybe Kipnis in AAA for you.. Is anyone that played last year going to be on the ML roster?


hmm, actually of those players only LaPorta and Chiz are in AAA to start the year to me. Had the Indians signed Beltran I'd have considered Brantley in AAA, but not with what we currently have. And never mentioned Kipnis as every being a candidate for AAA (though if he struggled, sure he could be as any young player could). So...I have two guys who many think will start in AAA in LaPorta and Chiz. But hey, quoting things out of context is fun :drinks:

As far as Tomlin...I hope I am wrong, but take out that 2 month stretch to start the year...and he isn't that much different from Sowers, who had a great stretch to finish 2006. Tomlin obviously has better control, but his stuff may be worse. He was a fringe MLer to begin with, and I applaud him for making it as far as he has and being a respectable SP in the bigs. Vastly outperformed my expectations and that of many...but if you watched him in the 2nd half, you could tell teams were adjusting to him. If that HR rate doesn't come down, he's in for a rough year. And I'm not the only one that thinks this. And that doesn't even take into account his elbow issue...

I expect Tomlin to open in the ML rotation (if healthy). Like Talbot of a year ago he did well enough over the course of the year that he deserves another shot. I simply was pointing out that he had a very lackluster 2nd half and with a lot of similar guys in AAA as far as upside (really they could have more), that I could see him bumped if he doesn't perform well in April and May.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:36 pm

Hermie13 wrote:

If Lowe is our #4, then who is the #3? Tomlin? Guy was worse than Carmona from July on and is coming off an elbow injury. IMO tomlin should be behind Lowe in the rotation. Hasn't proven he can pitch a full season, plus was not very good after the first two month. When healthy he did get you 5-6 innings so a decent 5th man, but he should not be pitching higher than 4th (and IMO 5th) in a rotation that wants to win. Guess we see things differently but signing a guy like Jackson would bump Lowe from 3rd to 4th and Tomlin from 4th to 5th. Tomlin wasn't a whole lot different than Talbot from the year before. Started very hot then struggled in the 2nd half. Finished with a respectable ERA but the signs for a drop were there. I would not be shocked if Tomlin is in AAA or in the bullpen by the All-Star break after being bumped by a guy in AAA...


Everything said about Tomlin can be said about Lowe based on last year. In fact, Lowe had a worse 2011 (Lowe's 2011 was bad...but if you watched him he was Jekyll and Hyde from inning to inning - cruising through 4 IP then not getting an out in the 5th). I do expect a rebound from Lowe and hopefully some improvement wrt Tomlin. At least based on 2011, Tomlin would give you 6 good innings.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:52 pm

Thought I'd share this.. projected 2012 stats. Food for thought.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/ora ... nd_indians

I don't necessarily agree with some of their numbers, but.. hope this will spark discussion.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Thanks for the lInk @AZajac... I'm actually planning on posting a forum on 2012 projections soon. This would go well there.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:09 am

Tribe acquired Russ Canzler today from the Rays for cash considerations.

He's a 25-year old 1st baseman/DH with good power, decent walk totals and a tendency to strike out.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:28 am

He hit AAA pitching well last season, but was DFA'd for Jeff Keppinger. A good buy low option for the Tribe. Has a chance to fight for the 1B job, but likely provides depth in AAA.

Had a ridiculous BABIP last season, so numbers ought to normalize a bit this year, regardless of where he's playing.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:15 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Tribe acquired Russ Canzler today from the Rays for cash considerations.

He's a 25-year old 1st baseman/DH with good power, decent walk totals and a tendency to strike out.


Should be noted he did play a decent amount at 3B and both LF and RF in addition to 1B. Doesn't sound like the worst 25th man to have on a roster if it comes to that. Another move that makes me more disappointed with all we lost for Cunningham..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:33 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Tribe acquired Russ Canzler today from the Rays for cash considerations.

He's a 25-year old 1st baseman/DH with good power, decent walk totals and a tendency to strike out.


Should be noted he did play a decent amount at 3B and both LF and RF in addition to 1B. Doesn't sound like the worst 25th man to have on a roster if it comes to that. Another move that makes me more disappointed with all we lost for Cunningham..


No kidding - that Cunningham trade somehow keeps getting worse....

I like this pick-up - worth a look. Depending on how important it is to the brass for Santana to get regular work at C, could be his ticket coupled with a hot spring.

Going back to Cunningham - does anybody feel this was a worthwhile trade/exercise now? If so please explain - it looks like a waste but am willing to listen.
Correct me if I am wrong but he HAS to make the team right? He has no options and would have to clear waivers to be sent to Columbus right - I am asking seriously,this is how I understand it. So assuming this is the case, lets say come ST Cunningham has a ho-hum one and quickly is out-distanced as the 4th OF/back-up to the back-up for 1B by Spilborghs or Canlzer for example. You waive him hoping he clears - he doesn't and then what? You lose all three - Judy, Burns and Cunningham for nothing?????
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:39 pm

criznit2009 wrote:No kidding - that Cunningham trade somehow keeps getting worse....

I like this pick-up - worth a look. Depending on how important it is to the brass for Santana to get regular work at C, could be his ticket coupled with a hot spring.

Going back to Cunningham - does anybody feel this was a worthwhile trade/exercise now? If so please explain - it looks like a waste but am willing to listen.
Correct me if I am wrong but he HAS to make the team right? He has no options and would have to clear waivers to be sent to Columbus right - I am asking seriously,this is how I understand it. So assuming this is the case, lets say come ST Cunningham has a ho-hum one and quickly is out-distanced as the 4th OF/back-up to the back-up for 1B by Spilborghs or Canlzer for example. You waive him hoping he clears - he doesn't and then what? You lose all three - Judy, Burns and Cunningham for nothing?????


I wasn't really excited about losing Judy in the DFA deal as a result of this trade. I think we could have expanded the trade to include Judy and picked up another prospect. As for Cunningham, I think he brings a lot more to the team than the others as RF is really a weakness depth-wise in this organization. So between Cunningham and Neal, we have potential depth. If he can't cut it then he gets waived to be taken off the 40, I think he will pass waivers at that point as so many teams will be trying to do the same thing unless he has a good spring and just gets beaten out by Spilborghs/Canzler/Neal.....either way the team is better for it.....just hard reconciling the loss of Judy as a result of the deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:34 pm

Good pickup of Canzler for cash by the Tribe. It seems to me, Canzler could be Shelley Duncan with versatility...exp. at the 4 corners and a RH bat.

It seems the loss of Josh Judy has left a bitter taste in our mouths.
Hopefully, Cunningham shows he is worth it (Burns / Judy)... It seems to me the Padres were dumping him just prior to the Mat Latos deal, clearing 40 man space.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:15 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Tribe acquired Russ Canzler today from the Rays for cash considerations.

He's a 25-year old 1st baseman/DH with good power, decent walk totals and a tendency to strike out.


Should be noted he did play a decent amount at 3B and both LF and RF in addition to 1B. Doesn't sound like the worst 25th man to have on a roster if it comes to that. Another move that makes me more disappointed with all we lost for Cunningham..


No kidding - that Cunningham trade somehow keeps getting worse....

I like this pick-up - worth a look. Depending on how important it is to the brass for Santana to get regular work at C, could be his ticket coupled with a hot spring.

Going back to Cunningham - does anybody feel this was a worthwhile trade/exercise now? If so please explain - it looks like a waste but am willing to listen.
Correct me if I am wrong but he HAS to make the team right? He has no options and would have to clear waivers to be sent to Columbus right - I am asking seriously,this is how I understand it. So assuming this is the case, lets say come ST Cunningham has a ho-hum one and quickly is out-distanced as the 4th OF/back-up to the back-up for 1B by Spilborghs or Canlzer for example. You waive him hoping he clears - he doesn't and then what? You lose all three - Judy, Burns and Cunningham for nothing?????


Criz, the big stickler with the Cunningham deal in my eyes is the fact that he has no options. I think he does have some potential and his flexibility in the field is a plus. It's hoping to catch lightning in a bottle at its finest. The signings of Spilbourghs, Pie, Canzler(which I really like), and others make it more confusing. Strength in numbers I guess.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:21 pm

Chip Davis wrote:
Criz, the big stickler with the Cunningham deal in my eyes is the fact that he has no options. I think he does have some potential and his flexibility in the field is a plus. It's hoping to catch lightning in a bottle at its finest. The signings of Spilbourghs, Pie, Canzler(which I really like), and others make it more confusing. Strength in numbers I guess.


I think that all of these guys have failed to stick at the ML level. Each of them has some nice aspects to their game and one or more of them can put it all together at any one point. These are low cost gambles and if 1 of them succeeds the Tribe will be better in 2012. I'm unconcerned about Cunningham's lack of options because either he succeeds or he doesn't. If he doesn't, I think the Tribe can slip him through easily to AAA (although he can refuse assignment - I think).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby jellis » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:08 pm

I think people are a littler too upset by judy, he is ok but basically another Hermann type. There is a reason a number of teams didnt bother to claim him who had BP issues
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:25 pm

jellis wrote:I think people are a littler too upset by judy, he is ok but basically another Hermann type. There is a reason a number of teams didnt bother to claim him who had BP issues

I agree with you. People who think we lost someone like Putnam or Hagadone should realize that Judy was probably the 5/6 RH RP at best in the organization. He might make it to the MLs but I do not think he would be a dominant late inning guy. I think the Tribe made the best decision even if I am wrong. DLC just has a higher ceiling and more value as a LHRP IMO that I was not surprised. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:42 pm

I don't think it's really the fact that Josh Judy is no longer part of the org. I believe it's more to do with the acq. of Aaron Cunningham costing both Cory Burns and Josh Judy. To some, including myself he feels / felt like a over payment.

Judy, will be a decent ML arm IMO, but the Tribe has a ton of guys just like him. Fact is there are plenty of arms like his... Accardo, Ray, Tejada, Seddon, and Wheeler.

I like the add. of both Canzler and Cunningham. Cunningham, could be more than just a RH option. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop more into a platoon option in LF. Canzler has some nice offensive numbers and a little versatility, low risk (cost) pick up and did I mention options.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:31 pm

The Judy loss would have been fine, I think, if not for the subsequent loss of Putnam. I think Judy would have probably spent nearly all the year in AAA aside from maybe a few short stints due to injury/fatigue and perhaps some time in September. Putnam and Hagadone had the leg up for the 7th reliever (if they don't give it to a veteran), and CC Lee would probably have taken his spot if they both continued their respective performances from 2011.

I like what Cunningham could be. That being said, I'm not sure he's a surefire upgrade over Thomas Neal, who I figured was acquired for specifically the role of being a right-handed 4th OF, and should be healthy for this upcoming season. In general, the Indians have a lot of clutter in the OF this spring training, and it will be interesting to see how that shakes out. I think there's about 8 guys that could slot into Columbus if the year started today (Weglarz, Neal, Fedroff, Zeke, Huffman, Pie, Spillbourghs, Lewis).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:39 pm

It's easy to dis an acquisition like Russ Canzer. All it cost was money. He was on nobody's top 10 list. Yet, apparently he can hit. I just hope he's not another Jerad Head. Head was a disaster when he got his chance.
Canzler's still young, and his father was a baseball coach, so he should know how to play the game.

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-russ-canzler-l ... 6222.story


If I could give him advice, I would tell him to grab a 1B glove and head to Goodyear. I always say baseball is a game of talent and opportunity. Well Russ, this is your golden opportunity. Welcome aboard. :drinks:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:04 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:It's easy to dis an acquisition like Russ Canzer. All it cost was money. He was on nobody's top 10 list. Yet, apparently he can hit. I just hope he's not another Jerad Head. Head was a disaster when he got his chance.
Canzler's still young, and his father was a baseball coach, so he should know how to play the game.

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-russ-canzler-l ... 6222.story


If I could give him advice, I would tell him to grab a 1B glove and head to Goodyear. I always say baseball is a game of talent and opportunity. Well Russ, this is your golden opportunity. Welcome aboard. :drinks:

Not sure why anyone would get down on this guy when they just paid such a small amount. I really never noticed Canzler until watching him last year when Durham played Columbus on the net. I am not an expert on comps. I will leave that to Art if he wants to chime in but my thoughts watching Canzler was that he had a Michael Cuddyer look about him both offensively and defensively. Seems like his swing is more compact although Cuddyer might be very reaching in that regard. He is able to play several positions poorly just like Cuddyer. No offense to Duncan but I would be concerned since Canzler probably has more potential now than Duncan. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:07 am

Russ Canzler has been given BOB's spot on the 40 man roster. If for no other reason than he has been included on the 40 man, that should indicate the Indians think pretty highly of him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby artgold » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:57 pm

I think both Canzler and Cunningham were decent pickups, and I'd be willing to sacrifice some middle of the road relief prospects to make room for them on the roster.

Though both are in the "longshot" category, both have shown sufficient ability to be given a look by a ballclub in need of run producers. Both are righthanded, and have demonstrated decent pitch recognition skills and some growth as they progressed through the minors.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if either sticks and finds significant playing time as "late bloomers". Recall a guy named Casey Blake?

BTW Inky, Cuddyer would be a good batting comp (actually, for us really OLD GUYS, I was initially finding Jackie Brandt as a batting comp...but nobody would know who I was talkin' about). For Cunningham I was thinking his "top end" could be something like an Aaron Rowand type of bat (of course excluding his two odd seasons where he waaay outperformed his norm).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:34 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:I think people are a littler too upset by judy, he is ok but basically another Hermann type. There is a reason a number of teams didnt bother to claim him who had BP issues

I agree with you. People who think we lost someone like Putnam or Hagadone should realize that Judy was probably the 5/6 RH RP at best in the organization. He might make it to the MLs but I do not think he would be a dominant late inning guy. I think the Tribe made the best decision even if I am wrong. DLC just has a higher ceiling and more value as a LHRP IMO that I was not surprised. :pleasantry:


Upset is really too strong a word for me on losing Judy. I was never all that high on him....I just think it was a wasted move.

Cunningham....yeah he was a top prospect at one time, has hit lefties in the minors and could be a breakout guy this year....but I just don't see a big difference between him and Spilborghs. What's more likely, Spilborghs bouncing back to 2010 levels (.360 OBP) or Cunningham breaking out? Plus, Spilborghs is a better option in CF if it came to that. Wouldn't want to see either playing there, but Spilborghs has started there a few times each year (Cunningham has what, 2 starts in the MLs there?). I think it's very likely that Spilborghs outperforms Cunningham this spring....then what? Do you DFA Cunningham and risk losing him? Or hurt the team by keeping him around over Spilborghs?

You can ALWAYS find 4th/5th outfielders and utility guys on the cheap and on minor league deals. 2 years ago we got Kearns (good 2010, turned in McAllister) and Duncan. Last year we got Hannahan. Yeah sometimes it doesn't work (Everett last year, Graffanino few years before). I just think it's a waste to deal a guy like Judy who has a solid arm.

In the end this could be a moot point...but many thought "o well" when we lost Mujica, Adams, and others. My take on this is the Indians must really like Cunningham and feel he could potentially steal a starting job.


Ink....I really hope you're right on DLC. Hopefully a fulltime move to the pen helps him (helped Hags). I guess I worry that he won't be ready by 2013. I may be mistaken, but thought he only had 1 option left? Judy I thought had 2 left, which gives you more flexibility.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:45 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Cunningham....yeah he was a top prospect at one time, has hit lefties in the minors and could be a breakout guy this year....but I just don't see a big difference between him and Spilborghs. What's more likely, Spilborghs bouncing back to 2010 levels (.360 OBP) or Cunningham breaking out? Plus, Spilborghs is a better option in CF if it came to that. Wouldn't want to see either playing there, but Spilborghs has started there a few times each year (Cunningham has what, 2 starts in the MLs there?). I think it's very likely that Spilborghs outperforms Cunningham this spring....then what? Do you DFA Cunningham and risk losing him? Or hurt the team by keeping him around over Spilborghs?


If Cunningham does not succeed in ST, I would see the Indians DFA'ing him and trying to pass him through waivers. Now the big question really comes down is if both Cunningham, Spilborghs and Canzler all have great springs. What does the FO do?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 pm

Personally I like the Cunningham trade. We picked up a guy who can potentially fill a need this year for a AA reliever with average stuff. We really need right handed bats and outfield depth and he provides both. I don't really view losing Judy as having anything to do with the trade. We lost him because it was decided that Juan Diaz and Danny Salazar needed on the 40 at the beginning of the offseason. I like Judy, but I think the pickup of Wheeler more than offsets losing him. Ray has been decent in the past also.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:12 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Cunningham....yeah he was a top prospect at one time, has hit lefties in the minors and could be a breakout guy this year....but I just don't see a big difference between him and Spilborghs. What's more likely, Spilborghs bouncing back to 2010 levels (.360 OBP) or Cunningham breaking out? Plus, Spilborghs is a better option in CF if it came to that. Wouldn't want to see either playing there, but Spilborghs has started there a few times each year (Cunningham has what, 2 starts in the MLs there?). I think it's very likely that Spilborghs outperforms Cunningham this spring....then what? Do you DFA Cunningham and risk losing him? Or hurt the team by keeping him around over Spilborghs?


If Cunningham does not succeed in ST, I would see the Indians DFA'ing him and trying to pass him through waivers. Now the big question really comes down is if both Cunningham, Spilborghs and Canzler all have great springs. What does the FO do?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:28 am

artgold wrote:I think both Canzler and Cunningham were decent pickups, and I'd be willing to sacrifice some middle of the road relief prospects to make room for them on the roster.

Though both are in the "longshot" category, both have shown sufficient ability to be given a look by a ballclub in need of run producers. Both are righthanded, and have demonstrated decent pitch recognition skills and some growth as they progressed through the minors.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if either sticks and finds significant playing time as "late bloomers". Recall a guy named Casey Blake?

BTW Inky, Cuddyer would be a good batting comp (actually, for us really OLD GUYS, I was initially finding Jackie Brandt as a batting comp...but nobody would know who I was talkin' about). For Cunningham I was thinking his "top end" could be something like an Aaron Rowand type of bat (of course excluding his two odd seasons where he waaay outperformed his norm).

No kidding, Jackie Brandt! Yeah, even saw him play once when he was with the Os. More of an OF as I recall and a bit more athletic but not that much. Neither he or Canzler have/had great bat speed from my point of view, but both were pretty compact when they got to the MLs. Canzler reminds me a bit of Jordan Brown actually. Tony may not agree but I think Canzler is a better defender than Brown, Santana, Duncan and maybe even LaPorta at 1B. Cuddyer may have a bit more bat speed and athleticism and I think Casey Blake, the classic late bloomer, was a far better defender at more positions but the swing mechanics of both are similar to Canzler. I bet iron remembers Jackie Brandt as well. See if he "confesses" to old age.

I know many posters hate the thought we "gave away" a viable RH RP in Judy to put Cunningham on the 40. I think it is just baseball. But I likely have seen Cunningham play more live baseball than anyone on this site and I like his athleticism and swing mechanics. So did the Pads. I believe he will perform better in Cleveland with the smaller park and, while he cannot throw like Choo, he is a much better defender than Choo and Sizemore, the DL King, have shown recently. Right now he is at a point where performance in the MLs does not match the skills. Rowland would not have occured to him given his greater speed but I can see your point with the bat. And Cunningham can run too. Just not as well as Rowland. :drinks:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:42 am

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:I think people are a littler too upset by judy, he is ok but basically another Hermann type. There is a reason a number of teams didnt bother to claim him who had BP issues

I agree with you. People who think we lost someone like Putnam or Hagadone should realize that Judy was probably the 5/6 RH RP at best in the organization. He might make it to the MLs but I do not think he would be a dominant late inning guy. I think the Tribe made the best decision even if I am wrong. DLC just has a higher ceiling and more value as a LHRP IMO that I was not surprised. :pleasantry:


Upset is really too strong a word for me on losing Judy. I was never all that high on him....I just think it was a wasted move.

Cunningham....yeah he was a top prospect at one time, has hit lefties in the minors and could be a breakout guy this year....but I just don't see a big difference between him and Spilborghs. What's more likely, Spilborghs bouncing back to 2010 levels (.360 OBP) or Cunningham breaking out? Plus, Spilborghs is a better option in CF if it came to that. Wouldn't want to see either playing there, but Spilborghs has started there a few times each year (Cunningham has what, 2 starts in the MLs there?). I think it's very likely that Spilborghs outperforms Cunningham this spring....then what? Do you DFA Cunningham and risk losing him? Or hurt the team by keeping him around over Spilborghs?

You can ALWAYS find 4th/5th outfielders and utility guys on the cheap and on minor league deals. 2 years ago we got Kearns (good 2010, turned in McAllister) and Duncan. Last year we got Hannahan. Yeah sometimes it doesn't work (Everett last year, Graffanino few years before). I just think it's a waste to deal a guy like Judy who has a solid arm.

In the end this could be a moot point...but many thought "o well" when we lost Mujica, Adams, and others. My take on this is the Indians must really like Cunningham and feel he could potentially steal a starting job.


Ink....I really hope you're right on DLC. Hopefully a fulltime move to the pen helps him (helped Hags). I guess I worry that he won't be ready by 2013. I may be mistaken, but thought he only had 1 option left? Judy I thought had 2 left, which gives you more flexibility.

It is a risk if I am right about DLC. But that is baseball. DLC can throw but his command is still spotty and I think his mechanics have not developed since the arm trouble. Not a prescription for confidence but I have seen progress in both areas. No idea if he will get it together in time to be of value to Indians but his high end is far better than Judy, IMO, and maybe even Putnam who has two real good pitches. DLC may be my new Carlos Rivero where Tony and I disagreed but I am hoping more for his fellow "latin trio" member Jeanmar Gomez, a developing talent. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:07 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:I think people are a littler too upset by judy, he is ok but basically another Hermann type. There is a reason a number of teams didnt bother to claim him who had BP issues

I agree with you. People who think we lost someone like Putnam or Hagadone should realize that Judy was probably the 5/6 RH RP at best in the organization. He might make it to the MLs but I do not think he would be a dominant late inning guy. I think the Tribe made the best decision even if I am wrong. DLC just has a higher ceiling and more value as a LHRP IMO that I was not surprised. :pleasantry:


Upset is really too strong a word for me on losing Judy. I was never all that high on him....I just think it was a wasted move.

Cunningham....yeah he was a top prospect at one time, has hit lefties in the minors and could be a breakout guy this year....but I just don't see a big difference between him and Spilborghs. What's more likely, Spilborghs bouncing back to 2010 levels (.360 OBP) or Cunningham breaking out? Plus, Spilborghs is a better option in CF if it came to that. Wouldn't want to see either playing there, but Spilborghs has started there a few times each year (Cunningham has what, 2 starts in the MLs there?). I think it's very likely that Spilborghs outperforms Cunningham this spring....then what? Do you DFA Cunningham and risk losing him? Or hurt the team by keeping him around over Spilborghs?

You can ALWAYS find 4th/5th outfielders and utility guys on the cheap and on minor league deals. 2 years ago we got Kearns (good 2010, turned in McAllister) and Duncan. Last year we got Hannahan. Yeah sometimes it doesn't work (Everett last year, Graffanino few years before). I just think it's a waste to deal a guy like Judy who has a solid arm.

In the end this could be a moot point...but many thought "o well" when we lost Mujica, Adams, and others. My take on this is the Indians must really like Cunningham and feel he could potentially steal a starting job.


Ink....I really hope you're right on DLC. Hopefully a fulltime move to the pen helps him (helped Hags). I guess I worry that he won't be ready by 2013. I may be mistaken, but thought he only had 1 option left? Judy I thought had 2 left, which gives you more flexibility.

It is a risk if I am right about DLC. But that is baseball. DLC can throw but his command is still spotty and I think his mechanics have not developed since the arm trouble. Not a prescription for confidence but I have seen progress in both areas. No idea if he will get it together in time to be of value to Indians but his high end is far better than Judy, IMO, and maybe even Putnam who has two real good pitches. DLC may be my new Carlos Rivero where Tony and I disagreed but I am hoping more for his fellow "latin trio" member Jeanmar Gomez, a developing talent. :pleasantry:


KDLC is a player that appears to be someone the Indians need to have uber-patience with.. the 2009 UCL injury was clearly a set back, however, when you've watched him pitch, he can really throw. Being a LH'er doesn't hurt him at all. He has shown that at each level in the minors, he starts off poorly. It occurs in the first year when he's promoted and results in HORRIBLE control numbers. (using K/BB ratio). It's in his second go around at that level that he appears to find a comfort level that allows his talent to shine.. He repeated this performance conundrum at Low A ball, High A ball.. and is currently entering what should be his second go around at AA ball. The question will become, will he make it to the ML's before he comes up against his minor league free agency.

The loss of three RHRP from the minor league rosters strikes me as a great big Ho Hum.. There are still more arms than spots to fill... As long as specific arms are not lost (I hated losing Joe Gardner, btw), then the Indians should be alright.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:45 pm

Interesting article by Joe Piascik regarding the AL Central race. The following quote is his summary:

I'm sorry to have thrown WAR around so much in this slideshow, but it's the quickest way to do this kind of comparison. We're almost done now, though, so let's get to the final tally. WAR assumes that a team of all Triple-A replacement-level players would win 45.5 games, so each player's WAR is added on top of that number. If we do that with the numbers I've thrown out in this slideshow, we get the following (rounded to the nearest whole number):

Detroit Tigers: 94-68

Cleveland Indians: 88-74

That's not all that big of a difference. And the Indians kept it close with fairly minimal contributions from Travis Hafner and Grady Sizemore. Could you imagine if one (or dare I dream both) of them figure it all out again. What if Michael Brantley becomes a top-of-the-order threat? What if the Indians have a first baseman actually emerge and be successful?

The main point is, the race for the AL Central is going to be closer than people realize. The Indians are a young, up-and-coming team that will be a force to be reckoned with in 2012. The Tigers may have won the offseason, but they are a few bad breaks from losing the season.


An 8 win improvement for the Indians and a 1 win drop for the Tigers from 2011 results sounds reasonable.. thoughts?...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:11 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Interesting article by Joe Piascik regarding the AL Central race. The following quote is his summary:

I'm sorry to have thrown WAR around so much in this slideshow, but it's the quickest way to do this kind of comparison. We're almost done now, though, so let's get to the final tally. WAR assumes that a team of all Triple-A replacement-level players would win 45.5 games, so each player's WAR is added on top of that number. If we do that with the numbers I've thrown out in this slideshow, we get the following (rounded to the nearest whole number):

Detroit Tigers: 94-68

Cleveland Indians: 88-74

That's not all that big of a difference. And the Indians kept it close with fairly minimal contributions from Travis Hafner and Grady Sizemore. Could you imagine if one (or dare I dream both) of them figure it all out again. What if Michael Brantley becomes a top-of-the-order threat? What if the Indians have a first baseman actually emerge and be successful?

The main point is, the race for the AL Central is going to be closer than people realize. The Indians are a young, up-and-coming team that will be a force to be reckoned with in 2012. The Tigers may have won the offseason, but they are a few bad breaks from losing the season.


An 8 win improvement for the Indians and a 1 win drop for the Tigers from 2011 results sounds reasonable.. thoughts?...


Sounds about right. The key to that 88 wins, which I've been saying over and over, is simply staying healthy.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:39 pm

The Tribe has reportedly signed 1b Casey Kotchman, 28. Kotchman doesn't add a whole lot of pop but is a quiet and solid add.

Curious to see who gets moved to accomadate the addition.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:41 pm

@ Geronimo Son...
Can you post the link to that article in the 2012 projections forum. It would be interesting read for anyone brave enough to throw some projections out there.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:42 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Interesting article by Joe Piascik regarding the AL Central race. The following quote is his summary:

I'm sorry to have thrown WAR around so much in this slideshow, but it's the quickest way to do this kind of comparison. We're almost done now, though, so let's get to the final tally. WAR assumes that a team of all Triple-A replacement-level players would win 45.5 games, so each player's WAR is added on top of that number. If we do that with the numbers I've thrown out in this slideshow, we get the following (rounded to the nearest whole number):

Detroit Tigers: 94-68

Cleveland Indians: 88-74

That's not all that big of a difference. And the Indians kept it close with fairly minimal contributions from Travis Hafner and Grady Sizemore. Could you imagine if one (or dare I dream both) of them figure it all out again. What if Michael Brantley becomes a top-of-the-order threat? What if the Indians have a first baseman actually emerge and be successful?

The main point is, the race for the AL Central is going to be closer than people realize. The Indians are a young, up-and-coming team that will be a force to be reckoned with in 2012. The Tigers may have won the offseason, but they are a few bad breaks from losing the season.


An 8 win improvement for the Indians and a 1 win drop for the Tigers from 2011 results sounds reasonable.. thoughts?...


Sounds about right. The key to that 88 wins, which I've been saying over and over, is simply staying healthy.

Simply staying healthy, Andrew. Not a simple thing IMO. And I don't think anyone can guarantee good years from everyone in last years rookies and first full year players. Only Brantley made some progress offensively in the OF when they were healthy. You seem to think that Sizemore and Choo will automatically play at their best if they are healthy. Neither can defend at all except for Choo's arm. Who will lead off? Replace the pitcher FKA Carmona? Provide hitting and defense at 1B?? Defend and Hit at 3B? In my mind that's a lot of unanswered questions to assume 88 wins which I agree is possible but not given. The Indians will rely heavily on the depth they acquired off season IMO. Would like to see ST again this year to see what these guys can do but not in the cards this year, I'm afraid. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ironmike » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:29 pm

Kotchman will bring stability, defense and most importantly puts the ball in play an intangible most fans don't value.
Did we have any regular last year who hit .306 or higher? Any time a team that has trouble scoring runs can add a .300 hitter is a good thing.

Sure would like to have more power, but Kotchman has the potential to bring real value to our every day line up. This also takes the pressure of LaPorta who can start at Columbus if need be. It is always a long season and injuries mount. Antonetti is doing a great job at building depth. Kotchman starts and the depth fills in behind him.

Good acquisition.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:33 pm

I'm happy enough with the Kotchman move. If he isn't performing, he'll be easy enough to jettison for LaPorta later in the season (or maybe Carlos Lee), given that he isn't making a lot of guaranteed money. Getting Slowey and Kotchman with that $5MM that was budgeted is honestly not bad. And if Carmona can't pitch this year, that money might be allocated towards Lee to replace either Kotchman or Hafner (if one or the other is hurt/underperforming) mid-season. Which I would be fine with.

Now, who to DFA? Canzler and Duncan are distinct possibilities, but it could also be either DLC or Rondon. Personally, I would be sad if it was Rondon, as I've always thought that guy could be a top of the rotation guy, but I understand if it is.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:40 pm

Edible14 wrote:I'm happy enough with the Kotchman move. If he isn't performing, he'll be easy enough to jettison for LaPorta later in the season (or maybe Carlos Lee), given that he isn't making a lot of guaranteed money. Getting Slowey and Kotchman with that $5MM that was budgeted is honestly not bad. And if Carmona can't pitch this year, that money might be allocated towards Lee to replace either Kotchman or Hafner (if one or the other is hurt/underperforming) mid-season. Which I would be fine with.

Now, who to DFA? Canzler and Duncan are distinct possibilities, but it could also be either DLC or Rondon. Personally, I would be sad if it was Rondon, as I've always thought that guy could be a top of the rotation guy, but I understand if it is.


IMO it'll more than likely be someone in the minors than someone on the 25 man right now (Duncan).. So maybe DLC or Weglarz?

EDIT: Canzler also makes a lot of sense considering LaPorta will more than likely be in C-Bus.. Kind of makes his role already useless.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:02 am

A.Zajac wrote:IMO it'll more than likely be someone in the minors than someone on the 25 man right now (Duncan).. So maybe DLC or Weglarz?

EDIT: Canzler also makes a lot of sense considering LaPorta will more than likely be in C-Bus.. Kind of makes his role already useless.


If reports are true about Weglarz being 100% healthy, then no way. That guy is as good a candidate as any to replace Hafner next year, if he can put it together.

Columbus is crowded right now on paper. Canzler, Mills, LaPorta and Goedert all figure to be in the mix for 1B/DH spots (Goedert could play 3B, but if Chiz is down there, then he might be hosed). That's in addition to the 8 or 9 guys in play for the OF there. Plus Duncan, if he's not in Cleveland or elsewhere. So, it's hard to see the real need for Canzler, especially if he's not really highly thought of.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:15 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Geronimo Son...
Can you post the link to that article in the 2012 projections forum. It would be interesting read for anyone brave enough to throw some projections out there.

Here is the link to the story by Piascik:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1047 ... oit-tigers
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:26 am

My guess on the guy to get DFAed for Kotchman is one of Kluber, Weglarz, Canzler or De La Cruz. I think Weglarz may be the safest of the bunch....and have to think Canzler may be the one. If not him then De La Cruz.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:04 am

TonyIPI wrote:My guess on the guy to get DFAed for Kotchman is one of Kluber, Weglarz, Canzler or De La Cruz. I think Weglarz may be the safest of the bunch....and have to think Canzler may be the one. If not him then De La Cruz.


I don't think it will be Canzler. Let's give the FO some credit. If you buy Canzler on Wednesday, then signing Kotchman on Thursday shouldn't have been a complete shock.
They also gave up their most prized possession for Canzler - money. He also seems versatile enough to give the roster some flexibility. To me, he may be more valuable than Cunningham.
You could name probably 5 pitchers that could get called up before DLC.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:08 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:My guess on the guy to get DFAed for Kotchman is one of Kluber, Weglarz, Canzler or De La Cruz. I think Weglarz may be the safest of the bunch....and have to think Canzler may be the one. If not him then De La Cruz.


I don't think it will be Canzler. Let's give the FO some credit. If you buy Canzler on Wednesday, then signing Kotchman on Thursday shouldn't have been a complete shock.
They also gave up their most prized possession for Canzler - money. He also seems versatile enough to give the roster some flexibility. To me, he may be more valuable than Cunningham.
You could name probably 5 pitchers that could get called up before DLC.


If DLC is a reliever now as reported, I think he becomes a likely casualty. They've already got 3 left handed relievers ahead of him. But, of all the guys on the 40, I think Canzler is the most likely to clear waivers.

Also, egg on my face. I forgot that we already DFA'd Rondon.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby artgold » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:25 pm

DLC was once known as "Carmona left" and perhaps the Indians suspect he has more in common with him than just a large physique.

If so, and it wouldn't surprise me at all, it would seem to increase the chances he'd be dropped from the roster.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:13 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:My guess on the guy to get DFAed for Kotchman is one of Kluber, Weglarz, Canzler or De La Cruz. I think Weglarz may be the safest of the bunch....and have to think Canzler may be the one. If not him then De La Cruz.


I don't think it will be Canzler. Let's give the FO some credit. If you buy Canzler on Wednesday, then signing Kotchman on Thursday shouldn't have been a complete shock.
They also gave up their most prized possession for Canzler - money. He also seems versatile enough to give the roster some flexibility. To me, he may be more valuable than Cunningham.
You could name probably 5 pitchers that could get called up before DLC.


It was small money, and there is a decent chance Canzler could clear waivers, of which he would still be their property. But, if it is not him then yeah, I say De La.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:28 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:My guess on the guy to get DFAed for Kotchman is one of Kluber, Weglarz, Canzler or De La Cruz. I think Weglarz may be the safest of the bunch....and have to think Canzler may be the one. If not him then De La Cruz.


I don't think it will be Canzler. Let's give the FO some credit. If you buy Canzler on Wednesday, then signing Kotchman on Thursday shouldn't have been a complete shock.
They also gave up their most prized possession for Canzler - money. He also seems versatile enough to give the roster some flexibility. To me, he may be more valuable than Cunningham.
You could name probably 5 pitchers that could get called up before DLC.


It was small money, and there is a decent chance Canzler could clear waivers, of which he would still be their property. But, if it is not him then yeah, I say De La.

We will know soon enough but I am thinking Diaz. Hard for me to believe he would be claimed but I can live with that. IMO the others have some ceiling whereas Diaz really will never impact in the MLs. But it will be someone along the lines of those proposed in this thread. :friends:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:38 am

indianinkslinger wrote:We will know soon enough but I am thinking Diaz. Hard for me to believe he would be claimed but I can live with that. IMO the others have some ceiling whereas Diaz really will never impact in the MLs. But it will be someone along the lines of those proposed in this thread. :friends:


If the Indians were worried that he might get drafted in the Rule V draft, then why wouldn't they be worried about him being claimed on waivers when the teams in question wouldn't have to deal with the restrictions of the Rule V draft? Whatever reasons they had for putting him on the 40... what would have changed between now and then?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:53 am

Edible14 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:We will know soon enough but I am thinking Diaz. Hard for me to believe he would be claimed but I can live with that. IMO the others have some ceiling whereas Diaz really will never impact in the MLs. But it will be someone along the lines of those proposed in this thread. :friends:


If the Indians were worried that he might get drafted in the Rule V draft, then why wouldn't they be worried about him being claimed on waivers when the teams in question wouldn't have to deal with the restrictions of the Rule V draft? Whatever reasons they had for putting him on the 40... what would have changed between now and then?

Three months of offseason acquisitions and many more teams have a crowded 40. Would you want to use a 40 spot on a fringe SS in those circumstances, Edible? :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:30 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:If the Indians were worried that he might get drafted in the Rule V draft, then why wouldn't they be worried about him being claimed on waivers when the teams in question wouldn't have to deal with the restrictions of the Rule V draft? Whatever reasons they had for putting him on the 40... what would have changed between now and then?

Three months of offseason acquisitions and many more teams have a crowded 40. Would you want to use a 40 spot on a fringe SS in those circumstances, Edible? :pleasantry:[/quote]

I wouldn't, but if I had to guess, it would be because he's the only depth the Indians really have at SS. If Diaz isn't on the team (and I think the Indians at least believe he would be likely claimed), your AAA SS is... Argenis Reyes? Jose Lopez? Ching-Lung Hu? Gregario Petit? None of those guys are good options. And if ACab gets hurt, you're left with Donald as your starting SS with nobody around to back him up on the 40, because Phelps (to my knowledge) can't play SS, neither can Hannahan.

If you're asking me if I would claim him as a rival GM. I don't know... depends on the situation. I also don't claim to be a talent evaluator. But what I'm thinking is not whether a move should or should not be made on Diaz. I'm thinking that's it's unlikely to happen, given the thought process behind putting the guy on the 40 in the first place. I'm not saying the Indians should make any specific move, I'm just saying that I think it's likely that they won't make this move.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:07 pm

Edible14 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:If the Indians were worried that he might get drafted in the Rule V draft, then why wouldn't they be worried about him being claimed on waivers when the teams in question wouldn't have to deal with the restrictions of the Rule V draft? Whatever reasons they had for putting him on the 40... what would have changed between now and then?

Three months of offseason acquisitions and many more teams have a crowded 40. Would you want to use a 40 spot on a fringe SS in those circumstances, Edible? :pleasantry:


I wouldn't, but if I had to guess, it would be because he's the only depth the Indians really have at SS. If Diaz isn't on the team (and I think the Indians at least believe he would be likely claimed), your AAA SS is... Argenis Reyes? Jose Lopez? Ching-Lung Hu? Gregario Petit? None of those guys are good options. And if ACab gets hurt, you're left with Donald as your starting SS with nobody around to back him up on the 40, because Phelps (to my knowledge) can't play SS, neither can Hannahan.

If you're asking me if I would claim him as a rival GM. I don't know... depends on the situation. I also don't claim to be a talent evaluator. But what I'm thinking is not whether a move should or should not be made on Diaz. I'm thinking that's it's unlikely to happen, given the thought process behind putting the guy on the 40 in the first place. I'm not saying the Indians should make any specific move, I'm just saying that I think it's likely that they won't make this move.[/quote]
Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page with a minor difference as to Diaz impotance to the organization. I can live with that. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:23 pm

The Indians have signed Asdrubal Cabrera to a one year $ 4.55 MM contract, thereby avoiding arbitration for the entire 2012 eligible class.. The arbitration hearing avoidance streak has now reached 20 years... :good:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:51 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The Indians have signed Asdrubal Cabrera to a one year $ 4.55 MM contract, thereby avoiding arbitration for the entire 2012 eligible class.. The arbitration hearing avoidance streak has now reached 20 years... :good:


Another 1 year contract.
I think I finally have it figured out. The Cleveland Indians are a branch of the Aztec Indians who believed the end of the world was coming in 2012. That's gotta be it.

Won't Fielder and Pujols be upset when they only get paid for 1 year. :s_laughat
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:32 pm

The Indians could have up to 14 players eligible for arbitration next year.

Raffy, Asdrubal, Joe Smith, Slowey and Choo will be going in for their third year.
Hannahan, Masterson and Chris Perez would be in it for the 2nd year
Duncan, LaPorta, Sipp, and Marson could all be 1st year guys, and Brantley and Cunningham are potential Super 2 guys.

First, I somewhat doubt LaPorta actually gets to arbitration. That being said, if he's recalled early enough, it's possible even if he just gets to Super 2 status.

Second... I look at this and I think that, without some trades/moves... the increases from this pool (combined with the increase in minimum salary to close to 500k/year), could pretty much account for all that the team would "save" by buying out Hafner and then some. Leaving the Indians with maybe $15MM to spend in free agency... best case scenario (assuming Lowe, Grady, Fausto, Kotchman all part ways). This, for a team that would have holes at 1B, CF, DH and SP. The only way those change is if you see some leaps forward in production from one of the 1B (LaPorta, Canzler, Mills, Goedert), or OF (Weglarz, Neal, Carerra, etc.) or SP (Huff, Gomez, ZMac, Kluber, Barnes).

Just something to keep in mind this season. There's going to be a need for a lot of the younger guys to step up if the team is going to contend in 2013 (and perhaps beyond).
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