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Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

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Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Not sure how I feel about this:
:bad: or :reallyshocked:
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:18 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Not sure how I feel about this:
:bad: or :reallyshocked:


Can I choose both? Talk about a lethal lineup all of a sudden.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:19 pm

I'd say we're in trouble. We wanted to close the gap between us and the Tigers, but it seems like it only got bigger.

There's not much you can do though. The Tigers have a gigantic payroll (almost twice that of the Tribe) and there's no way we can compete with that. I must say that I expected a bit more creativity from Antonetti and obviously we still have to play 162 games, but to say that Detroit is the favorite to win the division is an understatement.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:20 pm

It's the 9 years part that is getting to me.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby catfish » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:29 pm

I think Dolan was this close to getting him.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:31 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:It's the 9 years part that is getting to me.


Why?

I see it as an advantage for us in the long run. Just consider how much money they have tied up in a couple of players, including 2 bad bodied hitters.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby catfish » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:35 pm

So 8 years from now we might be competitive that is great.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:45 pm

catfish wrote:So 8 years from now we might be competitive that is great.


That's very pessimistic. Miguel Cabrera will likely play 3rd base, which he can't, Fielder plays 1st base, which he can't and both guys run the risk of not being able to field at all in 2-3 years time. Plus, it also prohibits Detroit from spending money on other parts of their roster and it's not like they're loaded with 22-year old studs.

Besides, there's no reason for us to not be competitive fairly quickly. Maybe not next year, but with the proper development of Chisenhall, Kipnis, Brantley, Santana, Carrasco and even Masterson, we could have a very solid core which we can build around for the next few years. Not to mention some of the prospects that might help out in the future.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:05 pm

My random thoughts:

1. On the surface, this looks bad for the tribe. (OK, under the surface this looks bad for the tribe. ) But remember, we now have an expanded playoff format. I think it starts in2012. 2 wild card teams!! Let's concede the division to the Tigers. Let's also concede one wild card spot to the AL East. If we stay competitive, we can very realistically compete for that other wild card slot. Who's better than us in the AL West besides the future division champ Angels? (oh yeah, Texas)
Even more reason to find a 1B (not Kotchman).

2. At this time last year everybody conceded the 2011 AL Central to the White Sox. Remember when they signed Adam Dunn? Hell, remember last season's Miami Heat for that matter.

3. Does the National League suck now, or what? Loosing Pujols, now Fielder. The MVP is under drug scrutiny. Good night. Is Matt Kemp the best player in the league now? I wish I was his agent.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:31 pm

God friggin hates me!!!
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:38 pm

LOL - Its the Indians that need the 1B not the tigers! Well this is bad for the tribe no doubt. Right now though Fielder is taking Vmarts place offensively (he should put up much more powerful #'s than Vmart...) and we have a young unproven team that could excel quickly...


But bottomline is - we may end up looking up for a couple (or more) of years.....


Cepedes time? - Give him Carmoneredia's money.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby ClevelandBlues » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:43 pm

This is not good news at all. I wonder where Detroit gets that kind of money. It is bigger than Cleveland, but it is not exactly an economic boomtown.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby petes999 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:05 pm

Thought was Chicago & Detroit are getting old. Minny is competitive if healthy and KC is an up and commer. Thus, we got Jiminez to get a 3-year window. Then Carrasco gets hurt. Carmona won't play this year. We get Slowey and Lowe to replace them ... Yuck ... If that wasn't bad enough, Fielder just made Detroit a major factor again ... even if we had all our weapons it would be tough. Guess all we can hope for is that Fielder joins Martinez on the bench for a year because in 2013 Detroit will have a sick batting line-up.

As for wild-card, remember that NY/Bos will get 2 spots (division and WC - usually -- and if not WC-1/WC-2). Thus, we fight with (LAA or Tex) and Tor/TB for the last WC. Not liking our odds .... Hard to say but do we see how we do this year and see if we start rebuilding earlier than expected. Don't want to say that after just one player is added to a competive team. Yet, we need Chisenhall and Kipnis to play big roles sooner than we thought and hope that we can get AC to sign an extention for 2014 because 2012 is looking grimmer and grimmer. And, 2013 doesn't look that promising with Carmona rapidly aging in DR and Carrasco just coming off DL. Hopefully a Barnes can step up quickly and Rondon can play his way back into starting shape during 2012 (little by little). Thought we had a good window. But it is getting cloudier each week.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:08 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:This is not good news at all. I wonder where Detroit gets that kind of money. It is bigger than Cleveland, but it is not exactly an economic boomtown.

I'm not a Dolan hater but the UFT's(the 1st initial stands for ugly, the 3rd for tigers; figure the 2nd out on your own) do things to get their fanbase excited & eager to attend & spend.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:52 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:My random thoughts:

1. On the surface, this looks bad for the tribe. (OK, under the surface this looks bad for the tribe. ) But remember, we now have an expanded playoff format. I think it starts in2012. 2 wild card teams!! Let's concede the division to the Tigers. Let's also concede one wild card spot to the AL East. If we stay competitive, we can very realistically compete for that other wild card slot. Who's better than us in the AL West besides the future division champ Angels? (oh yeah, Texas)
Even more reason to find a 1B (not Kotchman).

2. At this time last year everybody conceded the 2011 AL Central to the White Sox. Remember when they signed Adam Dunn? Hell, remember last season's Miami Heat for that matter.

3. Does the National League suck now, or what? Loosing Pujols, now Fielder. The MVP is under drug scrutiny. Good night. Is Matt Kemp the best player in the league now? I wish I was his agent.


If you concede the division to the Tigers, i think you're conceding the playoffs. Rays and Yanks both have gotten better, and I don't think the Red Sox are going to sit back all year without making some kind of big move. Throw in the Rangers and Angels in the West and the division title in the Central still seems like the best bet to make the playoffs (at least to me).

Agree somewhat with your #2. Many thought the Tigers were gonna run away with not only the division in 2008 after trading for Miggy and Willis, but the American League. Some even said 1000 runs was likely from that offense...but as we know, that didn't happen. Their OF is still a weak spot but man they have amassed some great young talent.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:53 pm

Amazing, today was the first day I had heard Prince connected with his father's old team.

There's no way the counter punch that signing, but they could offer a 3 yr deal with a vesting option for 4 th yr to Edwin Jackson and back load the deal. To clear some salary I'd trade Raffy Perez, it would hurt and deplete the pen a bit, but I'm confident Huff or even Hagadone could replace Raffy in the pen. Just a thought, personally I think Huff ends up a Loogy. It's doubtful Carmona returns this yr IMO, so that would give the Tribe about $9 mil to offer Jackson this yr. I think he could come in and slide into the 3/4 spot w/ Tomlin and Lowe would round out the rotation. If the Tribe can't get a good hitter, why not target pitching??? A team can never have enough, and the Tribe could still swing a deal with the depth.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:56 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Amazing, today was the first day I had heard Prince connected with his father's old team.

There's no way the counter punch that signing, but they could offer a 3 yr deal with a vesting option for 4 th yr to Edwin Jackson and back load the deal. To clear some salary I'd trade Raffy Perez, it would hurt and deplete the pen a bit, but I'm confident Huff or even Hagadone could replace Raffy in the pen. Just a thought, personally I think Huff ends up a Loogy. It's doubtful Carmona returns this yr IMO, so that would give the Tribe about $9 mil to offer Jackson this yr. I think he could come in and slide into the 3/4 spot w/ Tomlin and Lowe would round out the rotation. If the Tribe can't get a good hitter, why not target pitching??? A team can never have enough, and the Tribe could still swing a deal with the depth.


I think Jackson would be a nice add, but think the only way the Tribe would consider him is if he'd agree to a 1 year deal (maybe 2). Tribe just doesn't like doing longer deals with starters.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:16 pm

The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).

But hey... big name lineups don't always win, even if they have a clear advantage. The Tigers still have some issues with their lineup, but even bigger issues with their rotation (especially if Verlander regresses).
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Edible14 wrote:The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).

But hey... big name lineups don't always win, even if they have a clear advantage. The Tigers still have some issues with their lineup, but even bigger issues with their rotation (especially if Verlander regresses).


I guess I don't see big issues with the Tigers rotation, at least not when compared to Cleveland. I don't think Fister will be as good, but don't think he's gonna fall that much. Really...the Tigers have the Tribe beat at every rotation spot, except maybe #2, depending how Fister/Ubaldo do in year 2 with their new clubs....Verlander > Masterson, Fister > Ubaldo (though this could switch), Scherzer > Tomlin, Porcello > Lowe, Slowey vs ?? Turner?
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:46 pm

Edible14 wrote:The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).


Right on both counts with Illitch and Gilbert. I've had execs from a few different teams tell me today he is by far the best owner in sports as he actually spends from his own personal wealth on his team. Not another owner in baseball that even comes CLOSE to that. A lot of people believe that the money he raked in with his NHL team the Redwings that since it is a capped league he uses that money on his Tigers.

Either way, I am envious of the Tigers....that is one hell of an owner.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:49 am

Another thing to keep in mind about Ilitch is that he's going to turn 83 this summer… he probably doesn't give a @#$& how terrible this contract is going to look in its final years. Although in the shorter term, that's going to be the worst defense in the game in 2013-14 when they have to figure out a way to put Fielder, Cabrera and Martinez in the lineup at the same time.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:57 am

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Another thing to keep in mind about Ilitch is that he's going to turn 83 this summer… he probably doesn't give a @#$& how terrible this contract is going to look in its final years. Although in the shorter term, that's going to be the worst defense in the game in 2013-14 when they have to figure out a way to put Fielder, Cabrera and Martinez in the lineup at the same time.


My guess is that they'll try Miggy at 3B/LF some. Maybe even slide Victor behind the dish once and awhile to give Avila a break (knees permitting). Man... could you imagine an infield of Cabrera-Peralta-Santiago-Fielder? It's a good thing they have strikeout pitchers in Detroit (for them).

I guess I don't see big issues with the Tigers rotation, at least not when compared to Cleveland. I don't think Fister will be as good, but don't think he's gonna fall that much. Really...the Tigers have the Tribe beat at every rotation spot, except maybe #2, depending how Fister/Ubaldo do in year 2 with their new clubs....Verlander > Masterson, Fister > Ubaldo (though this could switch), Scherzer > Tomlin, Porcello > Lowe, Slowey vs ?? Turner?


I'd say that Ubaldo is supposed to be the "ace", if he gets back to something resembling 2009/2010 form. But either way, I'd take our #2 over Fister. I'd take Tomlin over either Porcello or Scherzer, but I'm a little more optimistic on Tomlin than some. I'd also take Lowe over either of those two, but that's a little contingent on whether the defense improves for Cleveland (they're comparable pitchers in terms of WAR, but Lowe will be made a lot better/worse by how good the Indians defense is). I think the tiebreaker here is depth. The Indians have a number of guys that can be called upon in case of injury and will perform well, and I don't think the Tigers have that. And I think that can definitely be a factor over a 162 game season.

Realistically, barring another injury to one of their big sticks, the Indians rotation is going to need to be better than the Tigers if they're going to win the AL Central.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:56 am

TonyIPI wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).


Right on both counts with Illitch and Gilbert. I've had execs from a few different teams tell me today he is by far the best owner in sports as he actually spends from his own personal wealth on his team. Not another owner in baseball that even comes CLOSE to that. A lot of people believe that the money he raked in with his NHL team the Redwings that since it is a capped league he uses that money on his Tigers.

Either way, I am envious of the Tigers....that is one hell of an owner.


Yeah, I wish the Indians had an owner like Illitch. I am not a Dolan hater but I do think he overpaid for the franchise and that has prevented him from doing some things I wish he would have done. I also think he made a mistake buying back all the public stock that was sold during the Jacobs' era. At least the public stock made the team more of a community thing (like the Packers but to a lesser degree).

I think the Tiggers are certainly the team to beat in the AL Central and by a long shot but I don't think it is impossible to compete with them. Thing is they are managed by Leyland (who my Tigger friends say is no longer a very good manager) and I think our pitching staff (especially the BP) will be stronger plus if we can stay healthy.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:03 am

For the 2012 season, the Tigers have essentially replace VMart's bat with Fielder's.. While both are very good, Victor has a depth of knowledge as it relates to AL pitching..while Fielder has had scant few opportunities.. Advantage, pitching, at least through the first few go arounds.. While it's unlikely Fielder will experience a complete melt down like Adam Dunn in Chicago, their paths are pretty similar...

A healthy Indians squad.. even with the changes the Tigers have made.. will still be competitive.. :drinks:
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:58 am

GeronimoSon wrote:For the 2012 season, the Tigers have essentially replace VMart's bat with Fielder's.. While both are very good, Victor has a depth of knowledge as it relates to AL pitching..while Fielder has had scant few opportunities.. Advantage, pitching, at least through the first few go arounds.. While it's unlikely Fielder will experience a complete melt down like Adam Dunn in Chicago, their paths are pretty similar...

A healthy Indians squad.. even with the changes the Tigers have made.. will still be competitive.. :drinks:


I agree we will be competitive if healthy. We can win it but you have to acknowledge that the Tiggers will be a more prohibitive favorite. We don't know how Prince will hit in Comerica (it's not the Tiger Stadium that Cecil enjoyed his 50HR season in). Certainly Juan Gonzales had his worst year (of his prime) there. And certainly neither Prince or Cabrerra are run scorers so they have to have guys on base for them to be effective. But Prince and Cabrerra gives the Tiggers a strong lefty/righty combo in the middle of their order.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:53 am

daingean wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).


Right on both counts with Illitch and Gilbert. I've had execs from a few different teams tell me today he is by far the best owner in sports as he actually spends from his own personal wealth on his team. Not another owner in baseball that even comes CLOSE to that. A lot of people believe that the money he raked in with his NHL team the Redwings that since it is a capped league he uses that money on his Tigers.

Either way, I am envious of the Tigers....that is one hell of an owner.


Yeah, I wish the Indians had an owner like Illitch. I am not a Dolan hater but I do think he overpaid for the franchise and that has prevented him from doing some things I wish he would have done. I also think he made a mistake buying back all the public stock that was sold during the Jacobs' era. At least the public stock made the team more of a community thing (like the Packers but to a lesser degree).


Hey... I actually owned one of those stocks!

I don't think Dolan has been a bad owner for the team. He's allowed the team to go higher with spending when they compete (2008-2009) He also got the team STO, which was supposed to bring in a lot more coin and help the team be financially competitive. I don't really know what more you can reasonably ask the guy to do. You can't expect that an owner will spend from his own pockets like Illitch.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:16 am

Edible14 wrote:
daingean wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that irks me the most is that those "Dolans are cheap" folks will jump all over this. Illitch spends beyond his team's means and out of his own pockets like no other owner in sports, and he's exactly the type of guy that Clevelanders want (and, erroneously, think Dan Gilbert is).


Right on both counts with Illitch and Gilbert. I've had execs from a few different teams tell me today he is by far the best owner in sports as he actually spends from his own personal wealth on his team. Not another owner in baseball that even comes CLOSE to that. A lot of people believe that the money he raked in with his NHL team the Redwings that since it is a capped league he uses that money on his Tigers.

Either way, I am envious of the Tigers....that is one hell of an owner.


Yeah, I wish the Indians had an owner like Illitch. I am not a Dolan hater but I do think he overpaid for the franchise and that has prevented him from doing some things I wish he would have done. I also think he made a mistake buying back all the public stock that was sold during the Jacobs' era. At least the public stock made the team more of a community thing (like the Packers but to a lesser degree).


Hey... I actually owned one of those stocks!

I don't think Dolan has been a bad owner for the team. He's allowed the team to go higher with spending when they compete (2008-2009) He also got the team STO, which was supposed to bring in a lot more coin and help the team be financially competitive. I don't really know what more you can reasonably ask the guy to do. You can't expect that an owner will spend from his own pockets like Illitch.


Don't get me wrong.....my statement wasn't really the I blame Dolan thing but if I could trade owners (and take Illitch) then I would. I have never been one that said Dolan was cheap because I understand the financial constraints this team has to deal with. I would just like to see the Indians win a WS someday and Illitch is spending to do that for the Tiggers.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:57 pm

When Victor got hurt, I was worried that the Tigers would swoop in and steal Carlos Pena. Then Pena went to the Rays and I was happy that, if we couldn't get him, neither could Detroit. Now the Fielder signing has me grasping at straws to find a silver lining. Maybe an infield pop-up will find Prince, Verlander and Cabrera converging for a tough catch, all three diving and BOOM! We make up 15 games on the Tigers!
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:15 am

martyinnewyork wrote:When Victor got hurt, I was worried that the Tigers would swoop in and steal Carlos Pena. Then Pena went to the Rays and I was happy that, if we couldn't get him, neither could Detroit. Now the Fielder signing has me grasping at straws to find a silver lining. Maybe an infield pop-up will find Prince, Verlander and Cabrera converging for a tough catch, all three diving and BOOM! We make up 15 games on the Tigers!


Maybe grasping at straws, but there is always the chance Fielder becomes the next Mo Vaughn (we can only hope). Bastian had an interesting comp of Fielder/Vaughn on his blog today.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby artgold » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:17 am

martyinnewyork wrote:When Victor got hurt, I was worried that the Tigers would swoop in and steal Carlos Pena. Then Pena went to the Rays and I was happy that, if we couldn't get him, neither could Detroit. Now the Fielder signing has me grasping at straws to find a silver lining. Maybe an infield pop-up will find Prince, Verlander and Cabrera converging for a tough catch, all three diving and BOOM! We make up 15 games on the Tigers!


Well, a few positives you can possibly take from this news:

- Tigers defense should be pretty awful this season

- The Indians will likely have a lower cost per win than the Tigers

- The past statements about free agents shunning the Indians due to Cleveland are bunk, Detroit is a similar type of location
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:17 am

artgold wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:When Victor got hurt, I was worried that the Tigers would swoop in and steal Carlos Pena. Then Pena went to the Rays and I was happy that, if we couldn't get him, neither could Detroit. Now the Fielder signing has me grasping at straws to find a silver lining. Maybe an infield pop-up will find Prince, Verlander and Cabrera converging for a tough catch, all three diving and BOOM! We make up 15 games on the Tigers!


Well, a few positives you can possibly take from this news:

- Tigers defense should be pretty awful this season

- The Indians will likely have a lower cost per win than the Tigers

- The past statements about free agents shunning the Indians due to Cleveland are bunk, Detroit is a similar type of location

Don't agree Art. Completely different cities, especially with interest in sports in general and baseball in particular. Cleveland is more like Pittsburgh than Detroit or Chicago. Even closer to Cincy, KC, Indy and StL except they have fewer major professional franchises to compete for the sports dollar. :pleasantry:
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby artgold » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:56 am

Inky, though metro Detroit is certainly larger than metro Cleveland, the areas have some significant similarities.

Both have a similar population and income trajectory, though metro Cleveland has actually fared slightly better than Detroit in retaining total income (Detroit $170.6 billion in 2010 vs $170.9 billion in 2007, Cleveland $111.5 billion in 2010 vs $108.7 billion in 2007). Both areas are older industrially oriented areas who have lost much of their business base and have large vacant (and decaying) facilities near their downtown areas.

Like Cleveland, Detroit has also had some pretty bad attendance figures when the team fared poorly. For example, the Tigers only drew under 1.5 million for 7 of the 10 seasons beginning in 1990, even under 1.2 million for 3 of those years. After moving to Comerica Park their attendance again dropped into the 1.3-1.5 million range in 2002 and 2003, and then began to climb as the Tigers started to gain some momentum increasing fan interest.

I'd say if you look at size, then Cinci, Indy, Pittsburgh and St Louis would be closer comps, but I was looking at metro area economic direction, past reliance on heavy industry and historical attendance.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:32 pm

artgold wrote:Inky, though metro Detroit is certainly larger than metro Cleveland, the areas have some significant similarities.

Both have a similar population and income trajectory, though metro Cleveland has actually fared slightly better than Detroit in retaining total income (Detroit $170.6 billion in 2010 vs $170.9 billion in 2007, Cleveland $111.5 billion in 2010 vs $108.7 billion in 2007). Both areas are older industrially oriented areas who have lost much of their business base and have large vacant (and decaying) facilities near their downtown areas.

Like Cleveland, Detroit has also had some pretty bad attendance figures when the team fared poorly. For example, the Tigers only drew under 1.5 million for 7 of the 10 seasons beginning in 1990, even under 1.2 million for 3 of those years. After moving to Comerica Park their attendance again dropped into the 1.3-1.5 million range in 2002 and 2003, and then began to climb as the Tigers started to gain some momentum increasing fan interest.

I'd say if you look at size, then Cinci, Indy, Pittsburgh and St Louis would be closer comps, but I was looking at metro area economic direction, past reliance on heavy industry and historical attendance.


Agree with all that is said here.

But the big difference between Detroit and Cleveland, to me, is Cleveland is a football town. Detroit is a hockey/baseball town. Always been that way for as long as I have known, at last the last 35 or so years.

The Lions go way back....but don't get the maniacal following the Browns get.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby ironmike » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:53 pm

Tony, this has no relevance (what kind of city Cleveland is) in acquiring the right players and building a winning team. Heard all this before, Peters and Hart faced the very same challenges, they overcame them. Shapiro failed miserably, for many reasons. By the looks of things so far Chris Antonetti is on the right track.

Watch Moneyball. A real true story of entrepreneurialism. Find ways to get it done. That is what success and championships is all about. Work with what you have. New strategies are born when one is forced to find a way.

Our offense simply needs to score more runs, and have a much better K-BB ratio. Hell, Al Lopez said the same things 50 years ago ... show me a player who scores 95+ runs per season and all things take care of themselves.

Cleveland's most iconic player of all time, Rocky Colavito, hit tons of home runs, drove in 100's of runs ... know what his lifetime K-BB ratio was for 14 seasons? 951 BB's to 880 K's. Phenomenal, often overlooked. No excuse for these guys to be striking out 150 times per year, none. The steroid era is over. Back to good fundamental put-the-ball-in-play baseball.

Players with these kind of tangibles are still out there, the team must value you them and acquire them. Carlos Lee, if healthy, would be a good place to start. Choo has the ability right now to do a 50-50 mix too.

Less K's more walks = more runs. We need to score in the area of 850 runs in 2012 to contend. If Sizemore has a 2007 kind a year, great, then there must be real of improvement from the rest of the position players too. If each guy on the 15 man position roster scores 10 more runs in 2012, strikes out 10 less times and walks just 15 more times we have the right offensive formual. It needs to be a priority. And it isn't rocket science, it's just plain old baseball common sense. The fans will be shocked at how this improvement will help the pitching staff in many ways.

The concept of strifing for equal walks to K's per season, per player needs to be an organizational strategy starting with Rookie ball and continue through out all levels. One minor league player, Nick Weglarz, comes to mind as a player who has done very well in this category. For that reason alone, the Tribe needs to stay with him, if he can translate this talent to the ML level.

However, one pound of learning takes 10 pounds of common sense.

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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:27 pm

ironmike wrote:Our offense simply needs to score more runs, and have a much better K-BB ratio. Hell, Al Lopez said the same things 50 years ago ... show me a player who scores 95+ runs per season and all things take care of themselves.

Cleveland's most iconic player of all time, Rocky Colavito, hit tons of home runs, drove in 100's of runs ... know what his lifetime K-BB ratio was for 14 seasons? 951 BB's to 880 K's. Phenomenal, often overlooked. No excuse for these guys to be striking out 150 times per year, none. The steroid era is over. Back to good fundamental put-the-ball-in-play baseball.



Harvey Kuenn had a good K-BB ratio too but he couldn't score runs (65 in his 1 year in Cleveland) and couldn't drive in runs (54 in the same year). There's more to offense the K-BB ratio. A guy has to either be able to score from 1B on a double or drive guys in from 1B to be a game changer.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby ironmike » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:24 pm

As usual daingean you totally missed the point.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:42 pm

ironmike wrote:As usual daingean you totally missed the point.


The point is every stat has it's flaws....to rely on 1 stat will not get you to the promised land...especially something like K-BB rate. Colavito and Kuenn had similar K-BB statistics but Colavito was a better player than Kuenn because he could drive in runs....every at bat.....yes getting on-base is important but if you don't have speed and can't score from 1B on a double or 2B on a single and you can't drive in guys from 1B then your statistics are going to suffer. I am more of an OPS guy but believe speed should also be a factor (which it is not really in OPS except infield singles and stretching things into doubles/triples). But nothing beats seeing a guy with your own eyes. If a guy strikes out a lot but is productive in 30% of his at bats and either drives in runs or scores runs then he is a guy I want on the team. I just get frustrated seeing guys take a called third strike with a runner in scoring position (at every level). We have guys that are table setters (Brantley/Kipnis/ACab) we need more of the middle of the order guys.

I didn't miss your point....I just gave you an example which refuted your theory of K-BB ratio. Not saying it doesn't have any relevance but more of it's only a stat that cannot be used independently.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:03 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
artgold wrote:Inky, though metro Detroit is certainly larger than metro Cleveland, the areas have some significant similarities.

Both have a similar population and income trajectory, though metro Cleveland has actually fared slightly better than Detroit in retaining total income (Detroit $170.6 billion in 2010 vs $170.9 billion in 2007, Cleveland $111.5 billion in 2010 vs $108.7 billion in 2007). Both areas are older industrially oriented areas who have lost much of their business base and have large vacant (and decaying) facilities near their downtown areas.

Like Cleveland, Detroit has also had some pretty bad attendance figures when the team fared poorly. For example, the Tigers only drew under 1.5 million for 7 of the 10 seasons beginning in 1990, even under 1.2 million for 3 of those years. After moving to Comerica Park their attendance again dropped into the 1.3-1.5 million range in 2002 and 2003, and then began to climb as the Tigers started to gain some momentum increasing fan interest.

I'd say if you look at size, then Cinci, Indy, Pittsburgh and St Louis would be closer comps, but I was looking at metro area economic direction, past reliance on heavy industry and historical attendance.


Agree with all that is said here.

But the big difference between Detroit and Cleveland, to me, is Cleveland is a football town. Detroit is a hockey/baseball town. Always been that way for as long as I have known, at last the last 35 or so years.

The Lions go way back....but don't get the maniacal following the Browns get.

I totally agree with everything Art says in his comp and Tony's points as well. But the population figures are wildly different with twice as many people in the Detroit area as Cleveland. I find nothing wrong with the comparison of Rust belt cities but believe Pittsbugh is a truer comparison than Detroit or the others because of its comparative size and the fact that, like Cleveland, it supports all three major professional sports and has similar economic direction. All of these places are experiencing comparative loss to their base population wise but Pittsburgh is closest and nobody wants to go to Pittsburgh either unless they overpay. Detroit can overpay and does. IN this day and age, players want to go where the lifestyle is suited to their desires. That isn't Cleveland. :pleasantry:
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:15 pm

ironmike wrote:Watch Moneyball. A real true story of entrepreneurialism. Find ways to get it done. That is what success and championships is all about. Work with what you have. New strategies are born when one is forced to find a way.


Not to go too far off topic....Disappointing movie. Boring, misleading, and Jonah Hill.

Not once in that movie did it mention a rotation featuring Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, and Barry Zito followed by Corey Lidle, Aaron Harang/Ted Lilly.

No mention of how he filled out the back end of the pen with Billy Koch.

No mention of that crappy lineup that featured Jermaine Dye, Miguel Tajada, or Eric Chavez. Or their midseason pickup of Ray Durham.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:30 pm

ironmike wrote:Tony, this has no relevance (what kind of city Cleveland is) in acquiring the right players and building a winning team. Heard all this before, Peters and Hart faced the very same challenges, they overcame them. Shapiro failed miserably, for many reasons. By the looks of things so far Chris Antonetti is on the right track.

Watch Moneyball. A real true story of entrepreneurialism. Find ways to get it done. That is what success and championships is all about. Work with what you have. New strategies are born when one is forced to find a way.


Wait... did you just say that Tony or others need to watch/read Moneyball? The guy who values the exact things that Beane said were totally overvalued as statistics is preaching about it?

Am I taking crazy pills?

And Hart and Peters in no way overcame the "same obstacles" that Beane did. They achieved because they were gifted a very talented system with Thome, Ramirez, etc. already in it, and were able to spend in the top 5/top 10 of the league back when the league's highest payrolls were around $50MM. As soon as those prices started to climb is when they got out of it, and that's right around the time the A's were starting to do really well despite the increasing costs to do business (making the playoffs from 2000-2003 even though the league's highest payrolls were climbing over $100MM by then).
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Edible14 wrote:
ironmike wrote:Tony, this has no relevance (what kind of city Cleveland is) in acquiring the right players and building a winning team. Heard all this before, Peters and Hart faced the very same challenges, they overcame them. Shapiro failed miserably, for many reasons. By the looks of things so far Chris Antonetti is on the right track.

Watch Moneyball. A real true story of entrepreneurialism. Find ways to get it done. That is what success and championships is all about. Work with what you have. New strategies are born when one is forced to find a way.


Wait... did you just say that Tony or others need to watch/read Moneyball? The guy who values the exact things that Beane said were totally overvalued as statistics is preaching about it?

Am I taking crazy pills?

And Hart and Peters in no way overcame the "same obstacles" that Beane did. They achieved because they were gifted a very talented system with Thome, Ramirez, etc. already in it, and were able to spend in the top 5/top 10 of the league back when the league's highest payrolls were around $50MM. As soon as those prices started to climb is when they got out of it, and that's right around the time the A's were starting to do really well despite the increasing costs to do business (making the playoffs from 2000-2003 even though the league's highest payrolls were climbing over $100MM by then).

You're taking crazy pills. Peters was team president for the Tribe from '87-'91. During that timeframe the team drafted: '87- Albert Belle & Steve Olin, '88- Charles Nagy & Greg McMichael, '89-Jerry DiPoto, Alan Embree, Curt Leskanic, Jim Thome & Brian Giles, '90- Tim Costo(Omar), David Bell, & Dave Mlicki, '91-Manny Ramirez, Herbert Perry, Chad Ogea, Paul Byrd, & Damian Jackson.

Hank Peters wasn't "gifted" with anything. He drafted those guys and he's a lot more talented baseball exec than that over-rated idiot that the Moneyball movie was made about. His record in Baltimore, in between stints with the Tribe, was just as impressive, maybe even more so, with pennants in '79 & '83 & the WS in '83.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:09 pm

Rocky55 wrote:You're taking crazy pills. Peters was team president for the Tribe from '87-'91. During that timeframe the team drafted: '87- Albert Belle & Steve Olin, '88- Charles Nagy & Greg McMichael, '89-Jerry DiPoto, Alan Embree, Curt Leskanic, Jim Thome & Brian Giles, '90- Tim Costo(Omar), David Bell, & Dave Mlicki, '91-Manny Ramirez, Herbert Perry, Chad Ogea, Paul Byrd, & Damian Jackson.

Hank Peters wasn't "gifted" with anything. He drafted those guys and he's a lot more talented baseball exec than that over-rated idiot that the Moneyball movie was made about. His record in Baltimore, in between stints with the Tribe, was just as impressive, maybe even more so, with pennants in '79 & '83 & the WS in '83.


Pardon. Was more referring to Hart, because I've seen that exact same rant before from IronMike.

I don't mean to take anything away from those two. But I don't really like the assumption that Mike is using, i.e, that Shapiro/Dolan have been the problem for the Indians over the last 10 years, and not the massive increase in player salaries. Hart and Peters were really good for the org, no doubt, but comparing them to the current day leadership is very much apples and oranges.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby jellis » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:08 pm

Espn had an interesting article high lighting the issues Fielder might have, and mentioned an amazing resource to check out katron.org. If you compare Miller field to Commerica Fielder would lose 14 HRs alone next year, they predict him to have a good year but not more than 35 hrs which I would think is a disappointment for a guy whose main tool is power
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:46 pm

jellis wrote:Espn had an interesting article high lighting the issues Fielder might have, and mentioned an amazing resource to check out katron.org. If you compare Miller field to Commerica Fielder would lose 14 HRs alone next year, they predict him to have a good year but not more than 35 hrs which I would think is a disappointment for a guy whose main tool is power


I read that no Tiger's lefty has hit more than 12 HRs since they moved into Comerica....not sure that's true or not but it definitely seems as though Fielder could be in for a bit of a transition year at least switching to the bigger park.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:45 am

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:Espn had an interesting article high lighting the issues Fielder might have, and mentioned an amazing resource to check out katron.org. If you compare Miller field to Commerica Fielder would lose 14 HRs alone next year, they predict him to have a good year but not more than 35 hrs which I would think is a disappointment for a guy whose main tool is power


I read that no Tiger's lefty has hit more than 12 HRs since they moved into Comerica....not sure that's true or not but it definitely seems as though Fielder could be in for a bit of a transition year at least switching to the bigger park.

Nice stuff guys. Really had no idea this one sided as a ballpark but probably should have guessed after Victor's numbers last year. Thanks for the heads up. :pleasantry:
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:11 pm

Ken Rosenthal had an interesting piece where he had a rundown of the "AL Super Six" teams. (Indians weren't included.)
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/rati ... a-bay-rays

As the weakness for the Tigers he listed defense. How true. I can see Peralta and Cabrera flailing after ground balls now.
But I hope the Tribe's deep thinkers are figuring put a way to take advantage of this. Trying to outslug the Tigers would be stupid. But maybe more bunting, SB, and hit-and-run. Every manufactured run counts just as much. Maybe we need a "speed" lineup. So to speak.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:30 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:As the weakness for the Tigers he listed defense. How true. I can see Peralta and Cabrera flailing after ground balls now.
But I hope the Tribe's deep thinkers are figuring put a way to take advantage of this. Trying to outslug the Tigers would be stupid. But maybe more bunting, SB, and hit-and-run. Every manufactured run counts just as much. Maybe we need a "speed" lineup. So to speak.

That might help for the 18 or 19 games they play against the Tigers, but I'd prefer a balanced offensive attack over the course of a 162 game season. Applying strategy in one series is one thing, but to design a lineup to beat one specific team is pretty short-sighted... if the Tigers are foolish enough to keep putting Miguel Cabrera out at third base (and with Victor Martinez out for this season, they have no good reason to), then every one of their opponents will try to take advantage of the left side of their defense anyway. With Peralta and Cabrera manning the infield and Delmon Young backing them up in left, seeing-eye singles could become in-the-park home runs.

I have a feeling Brandon Inge is still going to end up a pretty valuable member of the Tigers this season... or else a couple of their pitchers, like Rick Porcello with his sinker/pitch-to-contact strategy, are in for a frustrating year.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:12 pm

With Fielder at first and Cabrera at third, you might be able to beat them by bunting a lot. It would be entertaining to watch at least.
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:08 pm

Bring back Alex Cole...
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Re: Prince Fielder to Tigers!!!!!

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:33 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:Bring back Alex Cole...


Is he out of prison yet?
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