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Carmona / Heredia Options

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Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:16 am

I thought this situation was worthy of it's own thread so here we go.

The only situation similar to this is with Leo Nunex / Oviedo of the Marlins. His "situation" started last September and is still not solved. So assuming Carmona / Heredia will miss a couple of weeks of ST is a bit optimistic. More than likely he is gone for the season. Remember, his problems have always been between the ears. I don't think this incident will improve his mental state.

Ordinarily, this would just be another part of Indians lore; like Beer Night. However, this was to be our window of opportunity, our "season of dreams". Losing your #3 SP at this time is no small problem. :reallyshocked: So what to do?

Internal Options: Gomez, Huff, Mcallister don't inspire confidence in me. I might give the first crack to Huff since he showed flashes last year.

Free Agents: The good news is that most of these guys would come relatively cheap. My philosophy would be to look for reliability rather than all-star potential. So Brandon Webb and Scott Kazmir need not apply. Some names I came up with include Tim Wakefield, Rich Harden, and Edwin Jackson. Another interesting name is Livan Hernandez. He made 29 starts last year, and his WHIP and SO/BB were still respectable.

Trades:I'm open. But teams don't look to trade SP right now. (Matt Garza a stretch).

The only good news out of this is that we will have an extra $7 million with Carmona / Heredia on the restricted list.

(BTW - In 2006 the Indians had a pitcher in the system named Felix Heredia. I wonder if there is a connection).
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:26 am

Didn't Bartolo Colon get caught lying about his age a few years back? I believe he still played that season. It may be a little different because he had a falsified name also, but I don't see why it would stop him from playing this year. Maybe the stress of pretending to be someone else contributed to his inconsistency on the mound, and now he might be able to relax more. If for some reason his contract was voided, I would prefer the money be used to go after a bat. One of Gomez, MacAllister, or Huff should be more than capable enough to hold down the number five spot.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:46 am

Yes.. Bartolo was part of a scam about identity/age a few years back..
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:07 am

A poster on another forum (MLB Trade Rumors) had the following suggestion regarding the BOB controversy:

With the coming out of Carmona may not be available (link below), I was wondering if a trade with be possible.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/0...carmona-using-
assumed-name.html

I know this is a long shot and only really helps the Yankees but how a

Burnett + 10+ mil (thinking more like 12-13)

for

Travis Hafner

Cleveland gets a pitcher for the rotation for a couple of years, plus money for AJ's contract and gets rid of Hafner who has been injury prone and/or under performed for most of his contract.


The more I thought about this "suggestion".. the more I favored it..

Some basics: AJ Burnett is owed $ 16.5 MM in 2012 and 2013 ($ 33 MM total). Travis Hafner is owed $ 13 MM for 2012 and has a club option at $ 13 MM or a $ 2.75 MM buyout for 2013. ($ 15.75 - $ 26 MM total). By switching Hafner to the NYY's and AJ Burnett to the Indians, the Yankees gain a minimum of $ 17.25 MM in committed payroll obligations for the next two years..The poster's suggest of $ 10 MM thrown in by the NYY's along with subtracting the BOB/FAUSTO commitment of $ 7 MM would make the Indians whole. It's also likely that AJ Burnett would be under less stress in Cleveland thereby making the "change of scenery" improvement in his stats possible...

The Indians may ask for the $ 12 - $ 13 MM, or, in lieu of the added $ 2 - $ 3 MM, a prospect such as Mason Williams, Thomas Kahnle or Dante Bichette Jr (when he is eligible to be traded).

Thoughts?
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:23 am

GeronimoSon wrote:A poster on another forum (MLB Trade Rumors) had the following suggestion regarding the BOB controversy:

With the coming out of Carmona may not be available (link below), I was wondering if a trade with be possible.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/0...carmona-using-
assumed-name.html

I know this is a long shot and only really helps the Yankees but how a

Burnett + 10+ mil (thinking more like 12-13)

for

Travis Hafner

Cleveland gets a pitcher for the rotation for a couple of years, plus money for AJ's contract and gets rid of Hafner who has been injury prone and/or under performed for most of his contract.


The more I thought about this "suggestion".. the more I favored it..

Some basics: AJ Burnett is owed $ 16.5 MM in 2012 and 2013 ($ 33 MM total). Travis Hafner is owed $ 13 MM for 2012 and has a club option at $ 13 MM or a $ 2.75 MM buyout for 2013. ($ 15.75 - $ 26 MM total). By switching Hafner to the NYY's and AJ Burnett to the Indians, the Yankees gain a minimum of $ 17.25 MM in committed payroll obligations for the next two years..The poster's suggest of $ 10 MM thrown in by the NYY's along with subtracting the BOB/FAUSTO commitment of $ 7 MM would make the Indians whole. It's also likely that AJ Burnett would be under less stress in Cleveland thereby making the "change of scenery" improvement in his stats possible...

The Indians may ask for the $ 12 - $ 13 MM, or, in lieu of the added $ 2 - $ 3 MM, a prospect such as Mason Williams, Thomas Kahnle or Dante Bichette Jr (when he is eligible to be traded).

Thoughts?


It's more likely the Indians stand pat, or sign a veteran arm that might come at a couple million perhaps...Rich Harden is one that comes to mind. IMO anyway
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:56 pm

Last year Carmona was 7-15 with a 5.25 ERA on a .500 team. Three of the last four years his ERA has been over 5.00 and his W-L over that period is 33-48. This is no great loss. I'm confident Gomez or even Huff could win 7 games this year.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:02 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Last year Carmona was 7-15 with a 5.25 ERA on a .500 team. Three of the last four years his ERA has been over 5.00 and his W-L over that period is 33-48. This is no great loss. I'm confident Gomez or even Huff could win 7 games this year.


May be...but are you confident they could throw 188 innings or more? Cause Carmona has done that each of the last 2 years...

Again, perhaps I'm looking at it wrong, but the fact that the tribe went out and got a guy like Lowe tells me the Tribe wasn't convinced that Gomez, McAllister, or Huff were guys they could count on for a lot of innings in 2012.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:05 pm

While I do think Hafner would be a perfect fit for the Yanks at DH (lefty who doesn't need to/can't play everyday).....not sure a Burnett trade really makes the Tribe better. While I'm not a huge Hafner fan, when he's healthy he has been a benefit to the lineup, puts up an .800+ OPS. Yes, vastly overpaid but I don't see Duncan or anyone else on the roster putting up better numbers the DH spot. Now...if we could expand that deal and get a guy like Swish coming back too....then definitely do it, but I Don't think the Yanks want to rid themselves of Burnett that badly....
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:37 pm

Hermie13 wrote:While I do think Hafner would be a perfect fit for the Yanks at DH (lefty who doesn't need to/can't play everyday).....not sure a Burnett trade really makes the Tribe better. While I'm not a huge Hafner fan, when he's healthy he has been a benefit to the lineup, puts up an .800+ OPS. Yes, vastly overpaid but I don't see Duncan or anyone else on the roster putting up better numbers the DH spot. Now...if we could expand that deal and get a guy like Swish coming back too....then definitely do it, but I Don't think the Yanks want to rid themselves of Burnett that badly....

You're probably right about the Yankees wanting to hang onto Swisher.. They really don't have an adequate replacement anywhere close to ML ready in their farm system.. The Indians, on the other hand, have signed a slew of NRI OF'ers anyone of which could easily hold down the fourth OF'er spot leaving

By adding to the Hafner/AJ Burnett trade.. the Yankees biggest need is an OF'er...

By process of elimination, (Grady: too fragile for the NYY's, Brantley: not a RF'er) that leaves Shin-soo Choo as the potential "expandee".. It would take QUITE A HAUL for the Indians to let Choo go at this time.. even it it meant bringing back a player of Nick Swisher's stature...

While it wouldn't be a direct result of this speculative trade.. part or all of the cash coming back from the Yankees could be directed toward the Cuban defector..?. just a tangential thought..
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:39 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:While I do think Hafner would be a perfect fit for the Yanks at DH (lefty who doesn't need to/can't play everyday).....not sure a Burnett trade really makes the Tribe better. While I'm not a huge Hafner fan, when he's healthy he has been a benefit to the lineup, puts up an .800+ OPS. Yes, vastly overpaid but I don't see Duncan or anyone else on the roster putting up better numbers the DH spot. Now...if we could expand that deal and get a guy like Swish coming back too....then definitely do it, but I Don't think the Yanks want to rid themselves of Burnett that badly....

You're probably right about the Yankees wanting to hang onto Swisher.. They really don't have an adequate replacement anywhere close to ML ready in their farm system.. The Indians, on the other hand, have signed a slew of NRI OF'ers anyone of which could easily hold down the fourth OF'er spot leaving

By adding to the Hafner/AJ Burnett trade.. the Yankees biggest need is an OF'er...

By process of elimination, (Grady: too fragile for the NYY's, Brantley: not a RF'er) that leaves Shin-soo Choo as the potential "expandee".. It would take QUITE A HAUL for the Indians to let Choo go at this time.. even it it meant bringing back a player of Nick Swisher's stature...


Yeah...unless the Yanks sign Cespedes, can't see them moving Swish. And even then, they could just use Cepsedes at DH (or start him in AAA).
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:42 pm

..Yeah...unless the Yanks sign Cespedes, can't see them moving Swish. And even then, they could just use Cepsedes at DH (or start him in AAA)...
By signing the NRI's, this would give the Indians a bit of time to evaluate and acclimate Cespedes to professional baseball in the US by starting him in the minors.. then bringing him up if and when he is ready..

The Indians may also take the "low road" and look at Jorge Soler, instead..

One thing is clear..the NYY's would be more inclined to go with the SURE THING (Swisher or Choo) over any other choices..
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
..Yeah...unless the Yanks sign Cespedes, can't see them moving Swish. And even then, they could just use Cepsedes at DH (or start him in AAA)...
By signing the NRI's, this would give the Indians a bit of time to evaluate and acclimate Cespedes to professional baseball in the US by starting him in the minors.. then bringing him up if and when he is ready..

The Indians may also take the "low road" and look at Jorge Soler, instead..

One thing is clear..the NYY's would be more inclined to go with the SURE THING (Swisher or Choo) over any other choices..


Wait....what?

I wasn't saying I thought the Tribe could get Cespedes. I agree that the Yanks would prefer Swish over Cespedes but Swish is only signed for 1 year. Cespedes may need time in AAA plus could DH as I said (thus not having anything to do with Swish).

Also wouldn't call Choo a "sure thing". I definitely think he does bounce back this year, but he struggled even before the injuries last year.



Baseball Prospectus had an interesting idea similar to the Hafner/Burnett one. Bay for Burnett. Money is similar, players wouldn't have to relocate far. Mets may need a starter depending on Santana's health. DH suits Bay better than the OF, but still could play some LF to spell Gardner.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:18 pm

To me the only option the Tribe really has is to place #55 on the restricted list and than try to sign Rich Harden or a Jeff Francis.

After losing on Carlos Pena, Casey Kotchman will likely be the target for the Tribe. I would think the Tribe could sign both Kotchman and Francis for that $7 mil. That's not a dramatic improvement to the team but still would help fill 1b and add an arm for depth.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:31 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:To me the only option the Tribe really has is to place #55 on the restricted list and than try to sign Rich Harden or a Jeff Francis.

After losing on Carlos Pena, Casey Kotchman will likely be the target for the Tribe. I would think the Tribe could sign both Kotchman and Francis for that $7 mil. That's not a dramatic improvement to the team but still would help fill 1b and add an arm for depth.


or they could sign neither (more likely)...

and continue to work the trade front...
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:37 pm

Throwing 175+ innings is overrated. All it really requires is the pitcher's health, and the team's desperation. Guys like Jeff Francis, Brad Penny and Livan Hernandez all threw 175+ innings last season and are currently looking for jobs. I'm not endorsing that the Indians sign any of them, but it illustrates that inning eaters are always cheaply available.

Depending on how this begins to play out, the only solution I'd look into outside the organization for now is to check the price tag on Rich Harden. If it looks like Whatchamacallit is going to miss a month or two, then maybe he's back in time for Harden's inevitable DL stint.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby petes999 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:54 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:Didn't Bartolo Colon get caught lying about his age a few years back? I believe he still played that season. It may be a little different because he had a falsified name also, but I don't see why it would stop him from playing this year. Maybe the stress of pretending to be someone else contributed to his inconsistency on the mound, and now he might be able to relax more. If for some reason his contract was voided, I would prefer the money be used to go after a bat. One of Gomez, MacAllister, or Huff should be more than capable enough to hold down the number five spot.


Just heard from an ESPN guy on radio that there is less than a 10 percent chance that Heredia/Carmona plays this year. It's different than an age discrepancy as it is more of a State Department needs to send a message that falsifying your identity to get into this country isn't tolerated period. So even if he co-operates to turn in Dominican employees who helped facilitate the switch that a penalty needs to be sent whether it is a 1-year, 2-year or 3-year ban on getting a VISA. Maybe Tony can hear more from inside the organization. But, if it is a ban, would Indians really want him back or just terminate the contract as he gets $9 million next year (2013) and $12 million the year after for a pitcher out of the league for a year.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:06 pm

Jon Morosi reporting the Indians have traded for Kevin Slowey from the Rockies for Zack Putnam
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:09 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Jon Morosi reporting the Indians have traded for Kevin Slowey from the Rockies for Zack Putnam


Absolutely hate this deal. Wasnt a huge putnum fan, but slowey is way too hittable...not to mention makes $2.75M this year. Give me gomez or mcallister over him
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:34 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Jon Morosi reporting the Indians have traded for Kevin Slowey from the Rockies for Zack Putnam


Absolutely hate this deal. Wasnt a huge putnum fan, but slowey is way too hittable...not to mention makes $2.75M this year. Give me gomez or mcallister over him


Reportedly, cash considerations for the Indians as well. I assume that means the Rockies are picking up most if not all of his salary.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:48 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Jon Morosi reporting the Indians have traded for Kevin Slowey from the Rockies for Zack Putnam


Absolutely hate this deal. Wasnt a huge putnum fan, but slowey is way too hittable...not to mention makes $2.75M this year. Give me gomez or mcallister over him


Reportedly, cash considerations for the Indians as well. I assume that means the Rockies are picking up most if not all of his salary.


Bastian Tweeting that the Rockies included 1.25 million
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:53 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Jon Morosi reporting the Indians have traded for Kevin Slowey from the Rockies for Zack Putnam


Absolutely hate this deal. Wasnt a huge putnum fan, but slowey is way too hittable...not to mention makes $2.75M this year. Give me gomez or mcallister over him


Reportedly, cash considerations for the Indians as well. I assume that means the Rockies are picking up most if not all of his salary.


Bastian Tweeting that the Rockies included 1.25 million


Well this makes it a bit better...still not a huge fan of the deal. If Slowey ends up in the pen down the line (very possible IMO), he'll be a bit like Durbin I guess. Just not a big Slowey fan...
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:40 pm

Well good-bye bullpen depth..... Hardly knew yee!
I hate this off-season.

We have lost Judy, Burns, Popham and Putnam... Not huge losses - but totally undercuts what was once a position of strength in the org.

Losing Judy, Burns, and Putnam for A.Cunningham and Slowey sucks. We got hosed IMO.

Playing devils advocate - ask yourself this who stands to benefit the most from Carmonas/Heredia's arrest and his soon to be voided contract? Who would be very glad to have 7 million more dollars to spend on whatever or keep? Who would know Carmona's "real" identity? His long-term employer perhaps?

Yes I am implying the Indians submarined their own player - and really is losing Carmona, his salary to be exact a bad thing from the FO perspective? Hell NO! He wont be playing for another team - Win Win!

Other side - 13mil for Beltran + 7mil for Carmona = 20mil for Fielder?????? HA HA HA. Thanks a lot C.A. looks like you really know how to run a baseball team. Right into the ground.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:31 am

criznit2009 wrote:Playing devils advocate - ask yourself this who stands to benefit the most from Carmonas/Heredia's arrest and his soon to be voided contract? Who would be very glad to have 7 million more dollars to spend on whatever or keep? Who would know Carmona's "real" identity? His long-term employer perhaps?

Yes I am implying the Indians submarined their own player - and really is losing Carmona, his salary to be exact a bad thing from the FO perspective? Hell NO! He wont be playing for another team - Win Win!

From what I read, the mother of the real Fausto Carmona was the one that outed him. Apparently they increased their demands for hush money when his salary went up this year and he balked at the demands. So the mother of the real Carmona went on a radio show and told everyone that her son was the real Carmona, and that Hernandez was an imposter.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:42 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Playing devils advocate - ask yourself this who stands to benefit the most from Carmonas/Heredia's arrest and his soon to be voided contract? Who would be very glad to have 7 million more dollars to spend on whatever or keep? Who would know Carmona's "real" identity? His long-term employer perhaps?

Yes I am implying the Indians submarined their own player - and really is losing Carmona, his salary to be exact a bad thing from the FO perspective? Hell NO! He wont be playing for another team - Win Win!

From what I read, the mother of the real Fausto Carmona was the one that outed him. Apparently they increased their demands for hush money when his salary went up this year and he balked at the demands. So the mother of the real Carmona went on a radio show and told everyone that her son was the real Carmona, and that Hernandez was an imposter.

The SB Nation story reported by Pedro Gomez illustrates what little it takes.. So now the real Carmona's will get scrod while the mom of BOB will be able to hold her head up high and proclaim to the world it's her son that is a major league pitcher.

So instead of getting X percent of something, the real Carmona's mom will get 0 percent of the bumped something and face charges for extortion and whatever other charges the DR authorities can think up.. The real Carmona's mom should enjoy being in jail. Maybe she can get a family cell where everyone who participated in this fraud can spend time together. Greed doesn't get any dumber than this, folks..

On the conspiracy theory about the Indians FO sabotaging their own pitcher for financial gain.. this little bit of tripe belongs at least near the top of the "How stupid does it get" list for cleveland.dumb articles and responders...
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:13 am

I agree, I would hope the Indians wouldn't do something that stupid. We have a hard enough time attracting free agents. If we start sabotaging careers, then no one will want to come here. If the Indians wanted rid of him they simply would have declined his option. I am starting to understand why he was such a headcase on the mound though. Living a lie and being extorted would weigh heavily on anyone's mind.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:23 am

@ CLEVELANDBLUES completely agree, it had to weigh heavily upon the mind of #55. While I understand the human aspect behind the fraud it is no less difficult as a fan of both "CARMONA" and the Tribe.

Is Manuel Carmona any relation to the pitcher formerly known as Fausto Carmona? I don't think so, but can't remember. Anbody else know?
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:17 pm

There was never any *need* to get out of his 2012 contract -- they willingly picked up the option. If the Indians had wanted to sabotage his career, they would have been well advised to decline his 2012 option first. If the government allows him back in the country and he pitches this season, there really isn't a precedent for voiding the contract. Sabotaging the career of a player you could still owe $7 million to would be the height of idiocy.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:18 pm

It really does make me wonder how many other players are out there with assumed identities. I highly doubt Carmona and Leo Nunez are the only ones. Since the Indians have started being more diligent about identification, it seems like they catch a guy every year or two (Diores Robles and Wally Bryan recently). I would not be suprised if they found players on nearly every team if they started to search in depth.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:33 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:It really does make me wonder how many other players are out there with assumed identities. I highly doubt Carmona and Leo Nunez are the only ones. Since the Indians have started being more diligent about identification, it seems like they catch a guy every year or two (Diores Robles and Wally Bryan recently). I would not be suprised if they found players on nearly every team if they started to search in depth.

It was a significant factor in Jim Bowden & Jose Rijo being fired by the Nats in 2009, although it went hand-in-hand with the larger scandal of bonus skimming in the Dominican. They had signed 16-year-old SS Esmailyn Gonzalez to a $1.4 million contract, who later turned out to be 20-year-old Carlos Alvarez.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby petes999 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:54 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:It really does make me wonder how many other players are out there with assumed identities. I highly doubt Carmona and Leo Nunez are the only ones. Since the Indians have started being more diligent about identification, it seems like they catch a guy every year or two (Diores Robles and Wally Bryan recently). I would not be suprised if they found players on nearly every team if they started to search in depth.


Saw something on Nuez ... " Minor leaguers who falsify documents face a one-year suspension; commissioner Bud Selig decides penalties for major leaguers." http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-10 ... ty-problem ... Also said there are probably around 30 who didn't take an amnesty a few years back and playing under different names.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:It really does make me wonder how many other players are out there with assumed identities. I highly doubt Carmona and Leo Nunez are the only ones. Since the Indians have started being more diligent about identification, it seems like they catch a guy every year or two (Diores Robles and Wally Bryan recently). I would not be suprised if they found players on nearly every team if they started to search in depth.


There are definitely guys in the ML and minors with false identities. It's a ridiculous system and tough to police....not really an answer for it. They testing and background checks have gotten a lot tougher in the past few years.....but still doesn't solve the problem.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:20 am

I don't think people truly understand the gravity of Carmona's situation. There is a very good chance he does not pitch in the ML this year and may never be able to come to the United States again. This is not something that is just going to be wrapped up in a few weeks. May takes several months for the legal process and investigation to play out. There is a good chance Carmona has not only thrown his last pitch for the Indians, but as a MLer as well.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TheWord » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Tony have you heard anything into the severity of the penalties he's facing.

What sort of legal precedent is there for similar charges, jail time?

Haven't seen much mentioned about it anywhere, and there isn't much of an MLB precedent when it comes to this so I really have no idea what would happen.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Here is my 2 cents -

If this had only been an age issue (age fibbed upon) I wouldn't be angry at all. While he hadn't been honest the only item in question would have been age & there are thousands of women that fib every day about their age - some even on their driver's license.

Unfortunately this involves more than age & in the process it crosses that line in my mind from being harmless to being a HUGE DEAL. I really feel that the book needs to be tossed at Leo Nunez & Carmona / Heredia. There had been a call (with amnesty) if players stepped forward on their own within the past 10 years. Since these guys didn't step forward, the book should be tossed at them with full force. These guys need to be banned & clubs should be able to go after previous wages. Agents of these players need to foot a significant bill as well & be subject to sanctions (see banning) if they have multiple violations. Guess what happens when agents are also liable financially - they will also police their clients & potential clients. Most people will be sure to tow a line if they know their livelihood would be serious jeopardy by not complying.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:09 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
ClevelandBlues wrote:It really does make me wonder how many other players are out there with assumed identities. I highly doubt Carmona and Leo Nunez are the only ones. Since the Indians have started being more diligent about identification, it seems like they catch a guy every year or two (Diores Robles and Wally Bryan recently). I would not be suprised if they found players on nearly every team if they started to search in depth.


There are definitely guys in the ML and minors with false identities. It's a ridiculous system and tough to police....not really an answer for it. They testing and background checks have gotten a lot tougher in the past few years.....but still doesn't solve the problem.


Tony a few placed punishments due to non-compliance & assessing penalties to the agents will close a number of loopholes IMHO.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:56 pm

I don't get the anger being directed at Fausto(he'll always be Fausto to me, in the same way Walker Smith will always be Sugar Ray Robinson).

I mean I get the fact that he his action maybe screwed up the team's playoff chances. That sucks, but he really hasn't been overpaid for his production. This year would have been the first year he might have been overpaid, depending on how he pitched. We might have had a bounceback in store for us. He's been a durable pitcher with long stretches of brilliance. His lying about his age aside, he was promoted from the minors when he was ready, pitched through his contract up to this point while in his prime, and has been a relative bargain.

People are coming around to the idea that prospect maybe should spend a longer period of time preparing for MLB. We won't be regretting the fact we control Kip into his thirties. I wouldn't mind keeping Lindor & Howard in the minors until they prove they're positively ready. Let's try to keep them in the Tribe during their primes. This is the same reason some folks wouldn't mind seeing Chiz spend the year in AAA. We brought up CC early, monitored his innings to keep him from flaming out early, just to make sure the Yankees got their money's worth?? I know this seems like a digression but it relates to the point above. Fausto didn't really do us any damage.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby artgold » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:55 pm

Anyone know how much we paid to sign Carmona/Heredia to his first contract in December of 2000?

Did he get a big bonus from the Indians to sign?

The reason I ask this question is to figure out my outrage here. If he got a significant bonus he clearly is a despicable fraud, if he just lied to get his foot in the door then my outrage is a bit less.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:59 pm

artgold wrote:Anyone know how much we paid to sign Carmona/Heredia to his first contract in December of 2000?

Did he get a big bonus from the Indians to sign?

The reason I ask this question is to figure out my outrage here. If he got a significant bonus he clearly is a despicable fraud, if he just lied to get his foot in the door then my outrage is a bit less.


I'm not sure why "outrage" and "despicable" are words you'd use here, Art..

First off..most of the agents for these kids.. take between 40 - 50 % of the bonus.. While it's not reported, the signing bonuses for Latin American kids is described by this SI article:

SI found teams paid a median of $65,000 to 16-year-olds compared to $20,000 to 18-year-olds. Juxtaposing that speed of depreciation with the soul crushing poverty of places like Carmona's native Dominican Republic, which has a per capita income of $8,900, suddenly the matter of fudging one's age isn't a question of virtue, but in many cases, survival and sanity

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... z1kF5N7CsT


So at the end of the day, Fausto was probably signed to a bonus of around $ 55 K with $ 20 K or more of that going to his agent.. additionally, the real Carmona family got a piece.. So, BOB, aka Fausto ! probably saw $ 12 - $ 14 K.. The bonus was in addition to being given the opportunity to play baseball.. which was the real prize...
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby artgold » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:57 pm

Paying kickbacks to keep quiet gets a bit of play too in my view.

Understanding that a kid does what is necessary to get noticed, my further questions would be didn't anyone scout Heredia when he was a kid and determine he wasn't worth signing? Didn't they notice him prior to his Carmona portrayal?

Kind of also makes me wonder about guys like Araujo and Sterling too. What makes you so sure they aren't pitching against guys a few years younger than they are?
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:52 am

artgold wrote:Kind of also makes me wonder about guys like Araujo and Sterling too. What makes you so sure they aren't pitching against guys a few years younger than they are?


You'll probably never know. It's not one of those things that the general public will have enough access to to disprove. Much like steroid use. So, either you can judge wildly and smear a bunch of innocent people (as people are doing with steroids)... or... you can just say "I'll be outraged when I have a reason". The reason for outrage being some shred of evidence.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 am

artgold wrote:Paying kickbacks to keep quiet gets a bit of play too in my view.

Understanding that a kid does what is necessary to get noticed, my further questions would be didn't anyone scout Heredia when he was a kid and determine he wasn't worth signing? Didn't they notice him prior to his Carmona portrayal?

Kind of also makes me wonder about guys like Araujo and Sterling too. What makes you so sure they aren't pitching against guys a few years younger than they are?

Paying kickbacks is just a business transaction. The lying about the age thing is dishonest but these are poor kids looking to get out. Art, I know you were involved in boxing, a lot worse goes on in that sport. I love boxing, been following it since the Sixties, but man what a shady bunch of characters.

I've been kind of suspicious of Sterling since I saw his picture last year. A 17 yr old kid with thighs like Lou Ferrigno?
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:49 pm

TheWord wrote:Tony have you heard anything into the severity of the penalties he's facing.

What sort of legal precedent is there for similar charges, jail time?

Haven't seen much mentioned about it anywhere, and there isn't much of an MLB precedent when it comes to this so I really have no idea what would happen.


I don't think jail time is the biggest concern. The major concern is being able to get a visa so he can pitch in the US and make his money. Big unknown as to his future with getting a visa.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:50 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Tony a few placed punishments due to non-compliance & assessing penalties to the agents will close a number of loopholes IMHO.


Won't work. In fact, the buscones are almost impossible to get control of....so why you will continue to see young 15-17 YO Latin kids gets suckered into bribes, fake their identities to make money, etc.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:52 pm

artgold wrote:Anyone know how much we paid to sign Carmona/Heredia to his first contract in December of 2000?

Did he get a big bonus from the Indians to sign?

The reason I ask this question is to figure out my outrage here. If he got a significant bonus he clearly is a despicable fraud, if he just lied to get his foot in the door then my outrage is a bit less.


He was signed to an $8-10K bonus
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby artgold » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:18 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
artgold wrote:Anyone know how much we paid to sign Carmona/Heredia to his first contract in December of 2000?

Did he get a big bonus from the Indians to sign?

The reason I ask this question is to figure out my outrage here. If he got a significant bonus he clearly is a despicable fraud, if he just lied to get his foot in the door then my outrage is a bit less.


He was signed to an $8-10K bonus


Thanks Tony, that wasn't much at all.

Seems to me that the Indians should really pause and evaluate what the success of Carmona (albeit for a brief period) and Colon tells them about Latin American pitcher development. Perhaps they shouldn't be so quick to dismiss signing a guy who is 20 or 21 and then seeing if they can still turn into major league material.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:50 pm

@ artgold... valid point, there are plenty of guys who are simply late bloomers physically, mentally, whatever the case may be, it just takes some guys a little longer to get it all together. I'd try to sign the guys as fliers, cheap, if they didn't produce Id drop them. Seems pretty simple, but teams are afraid to miss that 16 or 17 yr old who hasn't matured or fully developed simply bc of upside projection.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby artgold » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:03 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ artgold... valid point, there are plenty of guys who are simply late bloomers physically, mentally, whatever the case may be, it just takes some guys a little longer to get it all together. I'd try to sign the guys as fliers, cheap, if they didn't produce Id drop them. Seems pretty simple, but teams are afraid to miss that 16 or 17 yr old who hasn't matured or fully developed simply bc of upside projection.


As well they should, however taking some fliers on 20 or 21 year old's would seem to make sense based upon the examples we have with Carmona/Heredia and Bartolo Colon.

I'm not advising the Indians to change course here, but why not expand our signings in the area and field at least a second club? Even if none pan out, isn't the cost pretty low especially considering we can't spend high on lower round draft picks anymore?
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:52 pm

artgold wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
artgold wrote:Anyone know how much we paid to sign Carmona/Heredia to his first contract in December of 2000?

Did he get a big bonus from the Indians to sign?

The reason I ask this question is to figure out my outrage here. If he got a significant bonus he clearly is a despicable fraud, if he just lied to get his foot in the door then my outrage is a bit less.


He was signed to an $8-10K bonus


Thanks Tony, that wasn't much at all.

Seems to me that the Indians should really pause and evaluate what the success of Carmona (albeit for a brief period) and Colon tells them about Latin American pitcher development. Perhaps they shouldn't be so quick to dismiss signing a guy who is 20 or 21 and then seeing if they can still turn into major league material.

Thing is, the 20 & 21 yr olds are all 25 & 26.
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:49 pm

Carmona/Heredia's agent is named Bean Stringfellow - now THAT sounds like a fake name!!!
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Re: Carmona / Heredia Options

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:05 pm

Well its about as official as it gets - the tribe have put Carmona on the restricted list...... I would say the odds of seeing a return of Caromeredia returning as a Cleveland Indian this year at less than 5 percent. Infact give me 10 to 1 he never plays another game as an Indian.
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