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The Pitching Staff...

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The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:40 pm

Interesting notes & comments from Ross Atkins in your minor league update.. the things that piqued my interest include:

On Nick Hagadone: “..... He by no means is a finished product, but he is somebody who can contribute at the Major League level for sure. He has a lot of upside left..... then to put upside on that still is really exciting. If the consistency with the fastball command and the slider come then there are really not a whole lot of limits as far as a bullpen role goals. It will be interesting to see where he ends up.”


Where he ends up.. as in.. as a bullpen arm..or where his upside takes him?..back to the starting rotation?...

On Zach McAllister: “I think Zach is much more than just a contributing piece to this puzzle for us. I think he is going to be in the middle of a rotation for a long time...... he is capable of all of the adjustments that will allow for him to have success a long time in the Major Leagues


Z-mac made two starts for the Indians at the ML level this year.. one okay.. and one pretty bad.. His size and downward action on his pitches project well to the highest level. Having confidence in his ability to perform at the highest level is readily apparent. He should be in the mix as rotation candidate going into 2012...
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:09 pm

Highly unlikely Atkins was hinting at Hagadone moving back to the rotation. kid was a bullpen guy in college and with the arm injury plus his lack of control, the pen just suits him. He's said himself that he feels more comfortable there as well. My guess is he meant where in the bullpen....as in a possible closer candidate down the line.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:44 pm

Always amazed what some people read into with the quotes. :drinks:

Hagadone is not a starting pitching option in the future. It can always happen, yes....but from what I have been told it is extremely unlikely. He is a bullpen guy.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:12 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Always amazed what some people read into with the quotes. :drinks:

Hagadone is not a starting pitching option in the future. It can always happen, yes....but from what I have been told it is extremely unlikely. He is a bullpen guy.


We'll see.. Boston waffled on whether Masterson should be a reliever or a starter. Well, this same situation exists.. BIG STRONG ARMED pitcher.. with his injury history in the past, Hagadone could start off in the ML's as a reliever and then make the transition to becoming a starter.. 6'5" 230 lefties who have a three pitch mix and can bring it at 97-98 mph range can make themselves into a pretty effective starting pitcher at the ML Level...
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:35 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Always amazed what some people read into with the quotes. :drinks:

Hagadone is not a starting pitching option in the future. It can always happen, yes....but from what I have been told it is extremely unlikely. He is a bullpen guy.


We'll see.. Boston waffled on whether Masterson should be a reliever or a starter. Well, this same situation exists.. BIG STRONG ARMED pitcher.. with his injury history in the past, Hagadone could start off in the ML's as a reliever and then make the transition to becoming a starter.. 6'5" 230 lefties who have a three pitch mix and can bring it at 97-98 mph range can make themselves into a pretty effective starting pitcher at the ML Level...


Don't laugh but Randy Johnson didn't really dominate as a starting pitcher until around 29 year old (that was the year he got his wildness under control). Tall lefties that throw hard often develop late. I think Hagadone was moved to the BP because of the 40 man roster clock. It could happen but I think the Tribe keeps him in the BP.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:27 pm

Though we do have some nice depth - guys like Huff, Gomez, McAllister even Talbot at best are a 4th but mostly likely a 5th starter on a ML team. Carrasco (our #3?!?) is out for next year and Barnes who could have the most impact IMO, is also the greenest of the bunch and coming off a serious injury. He isn't anywhere close for the start of 2012. I believe that we need to add a SP for next year, if we truly want to compete. I don't think you can count on a Carmona, Tomlin, Huff/Gomez/McAllister to be much of a force on the mound. Another solid arm like a Harang would be a decent pick-up - depending on the price. Doesn't have to be a FA given the tribe recent transaction history, a trade wouldn't be very surprising... Well depending on who of course....
I think you can count on the tribe to add a SP for next season, might not come right away, but if we don't have a newcomer in the rotation opening day 2012 I would be shocked. :bomb:
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:30 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Always amazed what some people read into with the quotes. :drinks:

Hagadone is not a starting pitching option in the future. It can always happen, yes....but from what I have been told it is extremely unlikely. He is a bullpen guy.


We'll see.. Boston waffled on whether Masterson should be a reliever or a starter. Well, this same situation exists.. BIG STRONG ARMED pitcher.. with his injury history in the past, Hagadone could start off in the ML's as a reliever and then make the transition to becoming a starter.. 6'5" 230 lefties who have a three pitch mix and can bring it at 97-98 mph range can make themselves into a pretty effective starting pitcher at the ML Level...


I cannot say it any clearer. Right now the Indians have absolutely zero plans to put Hagadone back into the rotation ever. They feel he is a bullpen pitcher. Lacks any semblance of a quality major league third pitch, and he just likes and performs in a bullpen role so much better.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby indians1 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:07 pm

The indians who thought they had so much depth for the rotation going in the middle of season are going to need alot of help.

If you are honest with yourself, we do not know what we will get with ubaldo jimenez. He finished with a 5.10 ERA since the trade. His velocity is down and his control was awful. masterson is no sure thing to repeat this year.

Tomlin could be good or he could be another jeremy sowers who flamed out after his first year.

Carrasco is gone for next season. Anybody who is betting on mccalister or gomez to be an impact pitcher is really being hopeful.

Our rotation almost has as many question marks going into next year as they did this year. They better fix Ubaldo this offseason and we better see a dramatically improved pitcher or we are finished.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:36 pm

indians1 wrote:The indians who thought they had so much depth for the rotation going in the middle of season are going to need alot of help.

If you are honest with yourself, we do not know what we will get with ubaldo jimenez. He finished with a 5.10 ERA since the trade. His velocity is down and his control was awful. masterson is no sure thing to repeat this year.

Tomlin could be good or he could be another jeremy sowers who flamed out after his first year.

Carrasco is gone for next season. Anybody who is betting on mccalister or gomez to be an impact pitcher is really being hopeful.

Our rotation almost has as many question marks going into next year as they did this year. They better fix Ubaldo this offseason and we better see a dramatically improved pitcher or we are finished.


Also doubtful the bullpen is as good next year. Adding Kipnis, Chisenhall, Donald all year makes the lineup & bench much stronger though.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:59 am

There doesn't appear to be any reason the bullpen will falter or not being as effective as it has been in the 2011 season. The pen remains in tact save for the possible departure of Chad Durbin. The age of the pen is such that they are still developing.. so, if anything, this pen should improve..not regress..

As far as the plans for Nick Hagadone.. Plans change..
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:16 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:As far as the plans for Nick Hagadone.. Plans change..


Agree. Plan was to have him as a starter...plans changed and he's a reliever.

Kid was a closer/reliever in college even. Had 7 starts in college, while pitching in 55 games (from what's I've gathered). Made 25 appearances his final year at Washington with only 2 starts (11 saves). And it's not like that 2007 team was bursting with pitching. Other than Hags, not one of the pitchers from that team was drafted higher than the 9th round, and none have done anything special (none have even made it to AAA other than Hags).

It was wishful thinking to expect him to make it as a starter (admit I was on board with it too though), especially after TJ surgery. He's a reliever. Has been for years really.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:36 pm

indians1 wrote:The indians who thought they had so much depth for the rotation going in the middle of season are going to need alot of help.

If you are honest with yourself, we do not know what we will get with ubaldo jimenez. He finished with a 5.10 ERA since the trade. His velocity is down and his control was awful. masterson is no sure thing to repeat this year.

Tomlin could be good or he could be another jeremy sowers who flamed out after his first year.

Carrasco is gone for next season. Anybody who is betting on mccalister or gomez to be an impact pitcher is really being hopeful.

Our rotation almost has as many question marks going into next year as they did this year. They better fix Ubaldo this offseason and we better see a dramatically improved pitcher or we are finished.


I don't know about betting on McAllister or Gomez to be "impact" pitchers, but I would bet on one being a decent #5 next year.

As far as Ubaldo, let's see how he does being healthy in March/April. Just ask Cliff Lee what a an unhealthy spring/April can do to you (see 2007). Plus, Ubaldo's secondary numbers aren't as bad as his ERA indicates. FIP and xFIP both suggest he should be much better (like Masterson last year).

And Masterson...well I don't see anything that would suggest he can't repeat this year. If you watched him throw in 2010 it wasn't a huge stretch to think he could be an Ace-like pitcher. I think he can be even better next year personally.

Definitely could look to add a starter, but I'm not as worried about it. Carmona is the key to me. If he can get back to at least 2010 levels (which he was at times this year), then things really fall into place for this rotation. Masterson, Ubaldo, Carmona, Tomlin, McAllister/Gomez...you could do a lot worse.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:37 pm

I'm comfortable with the staff next year (Masterson, Jiminez, Tomlin and 2 of Huff/Gomez/McCallister but my guess is that they add an arm into the competition (plus maybe Rondon). I think the last several years have shown that a strong bullpen can help mask rotation issues.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:18 pm

daingean wrote:I'm comfortable with the staff next year (Masterson, Jiminez, Tomlin and 2 of Huff/Gomez/McCallister but my guess is that they add an arm into the competition (plus maybe Rondon). I think the last several years have shown that a strong bullpen can help mask rotation issues.


You forget Carmona? Or do you really think the Tribe will decline his option? :dunno:
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:19 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indians1 wrote:The indians who thought they had so much depth for the rotation going in the middle of season are going to need alot of help.

If you are honest with yourself, we do not know what we will get with ubaldo jimenez. He finished with a 5.10 ERA since the trade. His velocity is down and his control was awful. masterson is no sure thing to repeat this year.

Tomlin could be good or he could be another jeremy sowers who flamed out after his first year.

Carrasco is gone for next season. Anybody who is betting on mccalister or gomez to be an impact pitcher is really being hopeful.

Our rotation almost has as many question marks going into next year as they did this year. They better fix Ubaldo this offseason and we better see a dramatically improved pitcher or we are finished.


I don't know about betting on McAllister or Gomez to be "impact" pitchers, but I would bet on one being a decent #5 next year.

As far as Ubaldo, let's see how he does being healthy in March/April. Just ask Cliff Lee what a an unhealthy spring/April can do to you (see 2007). Plus, Ubaldo's secondary numbers aren't as bad as his ERA indicates. FIP and xFIP both suggest he should be much better (like Masterson last year).

And Masterson...well I don't see anything that would suggest he can't repeat this year. If you watched him throw in 2010 it wasn't a huge stretch to think he could be an Ace-like pitcher. I think he can be even better next year personally.

Definitely could look to add a starter, but I'm not as worried about it. Carmona is the key to me. If he can get back to at least 2010 levels (which he was at times this year), then things really fall into place for this rotation. Masterson, Ubaldo, Carmona, Tomlin, McAllister/Gomez...you could do a lot worse.

I think we are on the same page here Hermie. I think Acta was just making a preemptory excuse when he talked about a back end starter. The team is rebuilding, not hiring old has beens unless it is a cheap fill in. If he wants an IF RH power bat, good luck. Means Acta is throwing LaPorta under the bus like he usually does when he wants to excuse his failures unless he means to replace Chisenhall. LaPorta outhit all the OFs IMO so what is he going to do about the non-impact LH bats in the OF, which has every starter on the DL. Gimme Sarbaugh who wins without excuses. :pleasantry:
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:I'm comfortable with the staff next year (Masterson, Jiminez, Tomlin and 2 of Huff/Gomez/McCallister but my guess is that they add an arm into the competition (plus maybe Rondon). I think the last several years have shown that a strong bullpen can help mask rotation issues.


You forget Carmona? Or do you really think the Tribe will decline his option? :dunno:


My bad......Yes Carmona at #4. That means Huff/Gomez/McCallister competes for #5. That's pretty solid especially with our bullpen.

I'm more inclined to spend on a corner OF/IB. IF we don't pick up Grady then another OF.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby timdav » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:27 pm

My guess is they'll decline Sizemore's option and sign him for 2 or 3 million w/incentives.

If healthy, Sizemore is a decent fielde(I just watched Zeke Carrera over-run another hit in center...yikes!).......and Grady could hit 5th or 6th and we can hope he cuts down his swing and gets better offensive numbers. I'm guessing the team and Grady have already spoken behind the scenes and a deal is all but signed.

Some how, some way I think the Indians will find a right-handed power hitting (or high-average contact hitting "professional hitter") who'll play at 1st or 3rd. It's my crazy guess that's far and away their #1 priority.

OF in '12: Brantley in left, Sizemore in center, Choo in right.
INF: C-Santana and Marson; 1b: new hitter; 2b: Kipnis; 3b: Chisenhall (or new hitter with Chiz moving to 1st), ss: A-Cab.

Unless the acquisition for a power-hitting or contact stick can't be made, I'm assuming La Porta will be at Columbus or traded....even though he was acquired in a huge trade that so far simply hasn't worked too well for Cleveland.


#2: a veteran starting pitcher (maybe a #3 or #4 guy).

Who knows if Tomlin is/will be in the spring OK physically...sure hope so. And, Hector Rondon will be likely be at Akron next season as he works his way back. From everything I've read/heard, the Indians think Mc Allister has the most potential...but, at age 23...he might start 2012 in Columbus. Huff and Gomez are said to be considered marginal prospects (for some reason they seem to feel that way)...#5's at best).

So...Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin (hopefully), Carmona, and veteran (or Huff/Gomez/Mc Allister) seems to be the rotation in '12.

Those are my guesses. I'll put my flack jacket on, and get ready for all of you to tell me how wrong I am....which is usually what happens to everybody....LOL.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:42 pm

NO WAY is Chisenhall moving to 1b next season. If he isn't the everyday 3b to start next season he might be in AAA - that I could buy & understand. Moving Chisenhall to a new position in the majors next season - not so much.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:56 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:NO WAY is Chisenhall moving to 1b next season. If he isn't the everyday 3b to start next season he might be in AAA - that I could buy & understand. Moving Chisenhall to a new position in the majors next season - not so much.


Agree. Made some errors but he's a rookie. Give the kid some time at the positions, sheesh
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:NO WAY is Chisenhall moving to 1b next season. If he isn't the everyday 3b to start next season he might be in AAA - that I could buy & understand. Moving Chisenhall to a new position in the majors next season - not so much.


Agree. Made some errors but he's a rookie. Give the kid some time at the positions, sheesh


++1

Chiz would lose some value at 1B. 1B is a power position. Just as long the guy knows what to do with the glove (he doesn't have to be a GG). LaPorta could be the swing LF/1B guy if we sign/acquire a 1B only.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:10 pm

timdav wrote:My guess is they'll decline Sizemore's option and sign him for 2 or 3 million w/incentives.

If healthy, Sizemore is a decent fielde(I just watched Zeke Carrera over-run another hit in center...yikes!).......and Grady could hit 5th or 6th and we can hope he cuts down his swing and gets better offensive numbers. I'm guessing the team and Grady have already spoken behind the scenes and a deal is all but signed.

Some how, some way I think the Indians will find a right-handed power hitting (or high-average contact hitting "professional hitter") who'll play at 1st or 3rd. It's my crazy guess that's far and away their #1 priority.

OF in '12: Brantley in left, Sizemore in center, Choo in right.
INF: C-Santana and Marson; 1b: new hitter; 2b: Kipnis; 3b: Chisenhall (or new hitter with Chiz moving to 1st), ss: A-Cab.

Unless the acquisition for a power-hitting or contact stick can't be made, I'm assuming La Porta will be at Columbus or traded....even though he was acquired in a huge trade that so far simply hasn't worked too well for Cleveland.


#2: a veteran starting pitcher (maybe a #3 or #4 guy).

Who knows if Tomlin is/will be in the spring OK physically...sure hope so. And, Hector Rondon will be likely be at Akron next season as he works his way back. From everything I've read/heard, the Indians think Mc Allister has the most potential...but, at age 23...he might start 2012 in Columbus. Huff and Gomez are said to be considered marginal prospects (for some reason they seem to feel that way)...#5's at best).

So...Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin (hopefully), Carmona, and veteran (or Huff/Gomez/Mc Allister) seems to be the rotation in '12.

Those are my guesses. I'll put my flack jacket on, and get ready for all of you to tell me how wrong I am....which is usually what happens to everybody....LOL.


-Regarding Grady Sizemore..if no such deal exists, the Indian will retain him for a single year and see what they get for their 8.5 MM. As you've said.. if he's healthy, he can be a #5 or # 6 hitter in the order.

-Regarding the "professional" right handed power hitter that plays a corner spot..add LF to the equation and remove 3B. Otherwise, no argument..it echos what Manny Acta said in a pregame interview.. more production/power from the corner spots..

-Regarding the acquisition of a MOR/BOR SP.. As a FA, there is a list of around forty projected FA's for the 2012 season (excluding the Japanese imports like Wada and Iwakuma that may be available).. perhaps four of them might be worth pursuing.. A trade seems more likely, but, as you've suggested, the need exists..

-BTw... Nice outing by Zach McAllister this evening.. he walked off the mound with a 3-1 lead after five innings (no earned runs allowed and four K's). His pitches were down and leveraged away from the hitters.. He still has a few breaking pitches that he hangs from time to time.. but as his experience increases.. the number of hangers should decrease..

-Zeke the Streak.. even though most don't like his defense, and there are some issues there, his overall game is very much like Kenny Lofton's at a similar time.. both had initial forays into the ML's at the age of 24.. both took time to learn the pitching staffs in the league..etc.. Zeke certainly has the skill set to become a very good CF'er.. and perhaps, if Grady is signed for only one year.. Having Zeke learning and growing as a 4th OF'er at the ML level wouldn't be a bad situation..
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:45 am

I'd rather see Zeke the Streak "learning and growing" in Columbus next year. Once he learns to catch fly balls and stops swinging at anything he can reach I'd give him another shot.

I'd prefer a four-man rotation at C, 1B, and 3B. Marson at C, Santana at 1B, and Chiz at 3B are the regulasrs. Hannahan plays first when Marson gets a day off and Santana catches. Hanny plays 3rd when Chiz gets a day off and also comes in as a defensive replacement at first base in late innings.

Donald is the backup at SS and 2B. We don't need a backup catcher with Marson and Santana. LaPorta is the odd man out and is back in Columbus with Zeke, Phelps, Head, and Valbuena. Although LaPorta showed signs of getting it after returning from Columbus, he's still a marginal bat at his position who offers little in terms of speed, defense, or the versatility to play elsewhere, so I'm going with Hannahan.

In the outfield I'd sign Grady to an incentive based deal with a modest guarantee and play him in center 4-5 days a week. Against left-handed pitching Brantley moves to center and Duncan plays left.

If Grady moves on I'd put Brantley in center and give Duncan a shot in left field. He hit lefties and righties about equally well this year and his power makes up for his lack of average. We may have to sign another OF since I don't like either Zeke or Crowe.

I think Gomez has earned first crack at the 5th spot in the rotation. If he falters they can bring up Huff, McAlister, or Barnes.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:22 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I'd rather see Zeke the Streak "learning and growing" in Columbus next year. Once he learns to catch fly balls and stops swinging at anything he can reach I'd give him another shot.

I'd prefer a four-man rotation at C, 1B, and 3B. Marson at C, Santana at 1B, and Chiz at 3B are the regulasrs. Hannahan plays first when Marson gets a day off and Santana catches. Hanny plays 3rd when Chiz gets a day off and also comes in as a defensive replacement at first base in late innings.

Donald is the backup at SS and 2B. We don't need a backup catcher with Marson and Santana. LaPorta is the odd man out and is back in Columbus with Zeke, Phelps, Head, and Valbuena. Although LaPorta showed signs of getting it after returning from Columbus, he's still a marginal bat at his position who offers little in terms of speed, defense, or the versatility to play elsewhere, so I'm going with Hannahan.

In the outfield I'd sign Grady to an incentive based deal with a modest guarantee and play him in center 4-5 days a week. Against left-handed pitching Brantley moves to center and Duncan plays left.

If Grady moves on I'd put Brantley in center and give Duncan a shot in left field. He hit lefties and righties about equally well this year and his power makes up for his lack of average. We may have to sign another OF since I don't like either Zeke or Crowe.

I think Gomez has earned first crack at the 5th spot in the rotation. If he falters they can bring up Huff, McAlister, or Barnes.


I don't see what's not to like about Zeke (or really even Crowe) as a 4th outfielder. Kid has speed and is a typically solid defensively (had some hiccups this year). What more do you want? Austin Kearns?

If duncan is starting in LF, you just go with crowe or Zeke as your backup. No sense signing a guy for that. Now signing a guy to start and using Duncan as a backup? maybe. But that guy in LF would have to play CF as you need a backup there to Brantley.


Don't see us starting Hanny at 1B much. To me it's LaPorta or Duncan with Santana sprinkled in (other than a trade/free agent of course). Love hanny's D, but his bat is really nothing at 1B. LaPorta is gonna need a big spring though. Hoping he plays some winterball too.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby danh8 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:03 pm

Just found out that Tim Belcher has stepped down as our pitching coach. This is a stunner to me, because I felt that Belcher was the primary strength of the Manny Acta staff. Take him away and you aren't left with much, basically. Our progression from last season to this season can be summed up in the improvements in the staff. We'd bettter think long and hard as to whether we want to commit to an extension for Acta, IMHO ...I for one, am not sold on him being the guy.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:28 pm

danh8 wrote:Just found out that Tim Belcher has stepped down as our pitching coach. This is a stunner to me, because I felt that Belcher was the primary strength of the Manny Acta staff. Take him away and you aren't left with much, basically. Our progression from last season to this season can be summed up in the improvements in the staff. We'd bettter think long and hard as to whether we want to commit to an extension for Acta, IMHO ...I for one, am not sold on him being the guy.


Well Scott Radinsky was the bullpen coach and our BP has been pretty good. He also was a good pitching coach in the minors prior to Acta's hiring. In fact, there was much speculation that Radinsky would be Acta's pitching coach until Belcher got the gig.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I'd rather see Zeke the Streak "learning and growing" in Columbus next year. Once he learns to catch fly balls and stops swinging at anything he can reach I'd give him another shot.

I'd prefer a four-man rotation at C, 1B, and 3B. Marson at C, Santana at 1B, and Chiz at 3B are the regulasrs. Hannahan plays first when Marson gets a day off and Santana catches. Hanny plays 3rd when Chiz gets a day off and also comes in as a defensive replacement at first base in late innings.

Donald is the backup at SS and 2B. We don't need a backup catcher with Marson and Santana. LaPorta is the odd man out and is back in Columbus with Zeke, Phelps, Head, and Valbuena. Although LaPorta showed signs of getting it after returning from Columbus, he's still a marginal bat at his position who offers little in terms of speed, defense, or the versatility to play elsewhere, so I'm going with Hannahan.

In the outfield I'd sign Grady to an incentive based deal with a modest guarantee and play him in center 4-5 days a week. Against left-handed pitching Brantley moves to center and Duncan plays left.

If Grady moves on I'd put Brantley in center and give Duncan a shot in left field. He hit lefties and righties about equally well this year and his power makes up for his lack of average. We may have to sign another OF since I don't like either Zeke or Crowe.

I think Gomez has earned first crack at the 5th spot in the rotation. If he falters they can bring up Huff, McAlister, or Barnes.


Regardng Matt Laporta: Laporta will be the starting and regular first baseman next year.. Santana is NOT a 1B..he is a C, but using Hannahan as the back up corner guy makes a lot of sense... Laporta and his marginal bat raised his BA by 25 points and his slugging by 50 points from 2010 to 2011.. says it's not time to throw the baby out with the bath water w/r to Matt.. it's time to play him every day....

Jerad Head and Luis Valbuena are AAAA players.. don't see them being anything more than injury fill ins or roster fodder. Cord Phelps just needs to slow the game down.. He should start the season at AAA.. and be "in the mix" for call up.. Zeke is sooo young.. IDK what he will become.. perhaps a 4th OF'er?.. perhaps a real top of the order table setter.. We shall see with him..

Regarding Duncan.. there is no way Shelly is a regular at any spot. He is a BENCH GUY.. pinch hitter.. He can play poorly at two defensive spots. He's a big strong clumsy oaf who can hit left handers.. a good niche for a bench player.

Regarding the "first crack" guy: Barnes may become better than all of the guys listed there.. then again, it could be Rondon.. or.. perhaps another lefty in the wigwam.. But you are correct, JeanMar has earned a first shot at a rotation spot...
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:36 pm

daingean wrote:
danh8 wrote:Just found out that Tim Belcher has stepped down as our pitching coach. This is a stunner to me, because I felt that Belcher was the primary strength of the Manny Acta staff. Take him away and you aren't left with much, basically. Our progression from last season to this season can be summed up in the improvements in the staff. We'd bettter think long and hard as to whether we want to commit to an extension for Acta, IMHO ...I for one, am not sold on him being the guy.


Well Scott Radinsky was the bullpen coach and our BP has been pretty good. He also was a good pitching coach in the minors prior to Acta's hiring. In fact, there was much speculation that Radinsky would be Acta's pitching coach until Belcher got the gig.


You keep hearing good things about Reuben Niebla.. as well.. any thoughts?
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:35 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:
danh8 wrote:Just found out that Tim Belcher has stepped down as our pitching coach. This is a stunner to me, because I felt that Belcher was the primary strength of the Manny Acta staff. Take him away and you aren't left with much, basically. Our progression from last season to this season can be summed up in the improvements in the staff. We'd bettter think long and hard as to whether we want to commit to an extension for Acta, IMHO ...I for one, am not sold on him being the guy.


Well Scott Radinsky was the bullpen coach and our BP has been pretty good. He also was a good pitching coach in the minors prior to Acta's hiring. In fact, there was much speculation that Radinsky would be Acta's pitching coach until Belcher got the gig.


You keep hearing good things about Reuben Niebla.. as well.. any thoughts?


Niebla and Radinsky appear to be the best options in the system. Back in the late '80's the Braves had 2 pitching coaches one was Johnny Sain but the other one worked mostly with the BP. Let me see his name was something like Leo Mazzone. I am hoping Radinsky has the same kind of success Leo had.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby danh8 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Dave Miller is also an option I would guess ...he's the guy that took over Belcher's roving job when he took over the top gig a few years ago..
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:35 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I'd rather see Zeke the Streak "learning and growing" in Columbus next year. Once he learns to catch fly balls and stops swinging at anything he can reach I'd give him another shot.

I'd prefer a four-man rotation at C, 1B, and 3B. Marson at C, Santana at 1B, and Chiz at 3B are the regulasrs. Hannahan plays first when Marson gets a day off and Santana catches. Hanny plays 3rd when Chiz gets a day off and also comes in as a defensive replacement at first base in late innings.

Donald is the backup at SS and 2B. We don't need a backup catcher with Marson and Santana. LaPorta is the odd man out and is back in Columbus with Zeke, Phelps, Head, and Valbuena. Although LaPorta showed signs of getting it after returning from Columbus, he's still a marginal bat at his position who offers little in terms of speed, defense, or the versatility to play elsewhere, so I'm going with Hannahan.

In the outfield I'd sign Grady to an incentive based deal with a modest guarantee and play him in center 4-5 days a week. Against left-handed pitching Brantley moves to center and Duncan plays left.

If Grady moves on I'd put Brantley in center and give Duncan a shot in left field. He hit lefties and righties about equally well this year and his power makes up for his lack of average. We may have to sign another OF since I don't like either Zeke or Crowe.

I think Gomez has earned first crack at the 5th spot in the rotation. If he falters they can bring up Huff, McAlister, or Barnes.


Regardng Matt Laporta: Laporta will be the starting and regular first baseman next year.. Santana is NOT a 1B..he is a C, but using Hannahan as the back up corner guy makes a lot of sense... Laporta and his marginal bat raised his BA by 25 points and his slugging by 50 points from 2010 to 2011.. says it's not time to throw the baby out with the bath water w/r to Matt.. it's time to play him every day....

Jerad Head and Luis Valbuena are AAAA players.. don't see them being anything more than injury fill ins or roster fodder. Cord Phelps just needs to slow the game down.. He should start the season at AAA.. and be "in the mix" for call up.. Zeke is sooo young.. IDK what he will become.. perhaps a 4th OF'er?.. perhaps a real top of the order table setter.. We shall see with him..

Regarding Duncan.. there is no way Shelly is a regular at any spot. He is a BENCH GUY.. pinch hitter.. He can play poorly at two defensive spots. He's a big strong clumsy oaf who can hit left handers.. a good niche for a bench player.

Regarding the "first crack" guy: Barnes may become better than all of the guys listed there.. then again, it could be Rondon.. or.. perhaps another lefty in the wigwam.. But you are correct, JeanMar has earned a first shot at a rotation spot...


Big strong clumsy oaf hit .276/.362/.553/.915 in 123 ABs overall after the break. Clumsily hit righties on the year ,273/.331/.587/.918 in 121 ABs w/10 HRs. Not too shabby.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:05 am

Chiefroy wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I'd rather see Zeke the Streak "learning and growing" in Columbus next year. Once he learns to catch fly balls and stops swinging at anything he can reach I'd give him another shot.

I'd prefer a four-man rotation at C, 1B, and 3B. Marson at C, Santana at 1B, and Chiz at 3B are the regulasrs. Hannahan plays first when Marson gets a day off and Santana catches. Hanny plays 3rd when Chiz gets a day off and also comes in as a defensive replacement at first base in late innings.

Donald is the backup at SS and 2B. We don't need a backup catcher with Marson and Santana. LaPorta is the odd man out and is back in Columbus with Zeke, Phelps, Head, and Valbuena. Although LaPorta showed signs of getting it after returning from Columbus, he's still a marginal bat at his position who offers little in terms of speed, defense, or the versatility to play elsewhere, so I'm going with Hannahan.

In the outfield I'd sign Grady to an incentive based deal with a modest guarantee and play him in center 4-5 days a week. Against left-handed pitching Brantley moves to center and Duncan plays left.

If Grady moves on I'd put Brantley in center and give Duncan a shot in left field. He hit lefties and righties about equally well this year and his power makes up for his lack of average. We may have to sign another OF since I don't like either Zeke or Crowe.

I think Gomez has earned first crack at the 5th spot in the rotation. If he falters they can bring up Huff, McAlister, or Barnes.


Regardng Matt Laporta: Laporta will be the starting and regular first baseman next year.. Santana is NOT a 1B..he is a C, but using Hannahan as the back up corner guy makes a lot of sense... Laporta and his marginal bat raised his BA by 25 points and his slugging by 50 points from 2010 to 2011.. says it's not time to throw the baby out with the bath water w/r to Matt.. it's time to play him every day....

Jerad Head and Luis Valbuena are AAAA players.. don't see them being anything more than injury fill ins or roster fodder. Cord Phelps just needs to slow the game down.. He should start the season at AAA.. and be "in the mix" for call up.. Zeke is sooo young.. IDK what he will become.. perhaps a 4th OF'er?.. perhaps a real top of the order table setter.. We shall see with him..

Regarding Duncan.. there is no way Shelly is a regular at any spot. He is a BENCH GUY.. pinch hitter.. He can play poorly at two defensive spots. He's a big strong clumsy oaf who can hit left handers.. a good niche for a bench player.

Regarding the "first crack" guy: Barnes may become better than all of the guys listed there.. then again, it could be Rondon.. or.. perhaps another lefty in the wigwam.. But you are correct, JeanMar has earned a first shot at a rotation spot...


Big strong clumsy oaf hit .276/.362/.553/.915 in 123 ABs overall after the break. Clumsily hit righties on the year ,273/.331/.587/.918 in 121 ABs w/10 HRs. Not too shabby.

I would love to have Duncan be an everyday DH because his defensive skills are a liability for this team no matter where he plays but we have another year of the very highly paid Hafner. Even the thought of an everyday OF of Duncan, Sizemore and Choo must cause flop sweats for Indian pitchers. :pleasantry:
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:27 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Regarding the "first crack" guy: Barnes may become better than all of the guys listed there.. then again, it could be Rondon.. or.. perhaps another lefty in the wigwam.. But you are correct, JeanMar has earned a first shot at a rotation spot...


Huge fan of Barnes....no way does he get first crack over a guy like Gomez. Maybe if he didn't blow out his knee, but can't see a guy coming back from knee surgery making the opening day rotation with no ML experience. Do think he could turn out to be a solid ML starter though. Gomez and Huff should get first cracks though at the #5 spot with Talbot a possibility (if still with the team).
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:10 pm

Big strong clumsy oaf hit .276/.362/.553/.915 in 123 ABs overall after the break. Clumsily hit righties on the year ,273/.331/.587/.918 in 121 ABs w/10 HRs. Not too shabby.


Yeah, he hits right-handers, he hits left-handers, and he's a defensive liability. He'll give up an occasional run by misplaying a fly ball. But I'm not too worried about marginal defense in left field. If it was catcher, SS, 2B, or CF then I want a solid defender because those are key positions. But I'm willing to sacrifice some defense for a bat in left.

That being said, Pluto reports that the Tribe is not high on Brantley as a CF. They like him a lot more in left. So if Grady doesn't come back they'll probably use the savings to sign a centerfielder and use Dunc as the 4th outfielder.

I really don't see what Crowe has to offer. No power at all, batting average is subpar for an outfielder, and his defense is shaky at best.

I like Zeke's speed but he has figured out how to be a really bad defensive outfielder in spite of having good speed, which is not easy to do. He also hit .200 in September after the pitchers got a book on him. He has no power and can't throw. He also swings at tons of pitches that are out of the strike zone. I think he's got a long way to go. I don't see him as a starting CF on a playoff team. Well, maybe a AAA playoff team.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby ironmike » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:37 am

The Indians need to allow their young pitching prospects, if there good enough, to get earlier opportunities to pitch in the ML's. It didn't take Matt Moore to long to dominate in the ML's. Again, coaching decisions. Forget all the other ramifications. Win and compete at the ML level should be the primary objective.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Edible14 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:34 am

Hermie13 wrote:Huge fan of Barnes....no way does he get first crack over a guy like Gomez. Maybe if he didn't blow out his knee, but can't see a guy coming back from knee surgery making the opening day rotation with no ML experience. Do think he could turn out to be a solid ML starter though. Gomez and Huff should get first cracks though at the #5 spot with Talbot a possibility (if still with the team).


Exactly. He might not even make the opening day Columbus rotation if he's not quite healthy enough (there was some speculation that he would join Columbus after a month or two). He and Rondon are two guys I really like, but they're both going to need some time next year to "get their legs under them" so to speak, before they're actually better options than Gomez, ZMac and perhaps Huff/Kluber/Talbot.
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Huge fan of Barnes....no way does he get first crack over a guy like Gomez. Maybe if he didn't blow out his knee, but can't see a guy coming back from knee surgery making the opening day rotation with no ML experience. Do think he could turn out to be a solid ML starter though. Gomez and Huff should get first cracks though at the #5 spot with Talbot a possibility (if still with the team).


Exactly. He might not even make the opening day Columbus rotation if he's not quite healthy enough (there was some speculation that he would join Columbus after a month or two). He and Rondon are two guys I really like, but they're both going to need some time next year to "get their legs under them" so to speak, before they're actually better options than Gomez, ZMac and perhaps Huff/Kluber/Talbot.


Wouldn't be a surprise having either or both Barnes/Rondon start the year in AA/AAA.. If they are needed due to injury or lack of performance, then a May/June time frame for a call up will ensure the added year of control and give both of them a foundation to work from in the 2012 season.. In other words..during that time, the pretenders will separate themselves..
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Re: The Pitching Staff...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:03 pm

ironmike wrote:The Indians need to allow their young pitching prospects, if there good enough, to get earlier opportunities to pitch in the ML's. It didn't take Matt Moore to long to dominate in the ML's. Again, coaching decisions. Forget all the other ramifications. Win and compete at the ML level should be the primary objective.


Didn't take Sowers long either. 2nd lowest ERA in the second half of 2006 I believe.

Winning and competing at the ML level is the primary objective right now.
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