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First Base or Left Field

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First Base or Left Field

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:55 pm

I see lots of talk about upgrading our hit production by adding a RH 1b. To me our problem is also LF. Both positions are bat positions. If we keep Brantley IMO he plays center and someone new plays LF. That means Grady is not around I know.

I would like to see Phleps move to LF this winter. I think he has a nice bat - but no hope of winning the 2b position.

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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:00 am

Bearcatbob wrote:I see lots of talk about upgrading our hit production by adding a RH 1b. To me our problem is also LF. Both positions are bat positions. If we keep Brantley IMO he plays center and someone new plays LF. That means Grady is not around I know.

I would like to see Phleps move to LF this winter. I think he has a nice bat - but no hope of winning the 2b position.

Bob

Okay with Cord Phelps, but, how about Jason Donald..or, perhaps Thomas Neal, Michael Brantley, Kosuke Fukudome with Grady and Choo in CF/RF, respectively.. could the name "Weglarz" surface?..
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:32 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:I see lots of talk about upgrading our hit production by adding a RH 1b. To me our problem is also LF. Both positions are bat positions. If we keep Brantley IMO he plays center and someone new plays LF. That means Grady is not around I know.

I would like to see Phleps move to LF this winter. I think he has a nice bat - but no hope of winning the 2b position.

Bob

Okay with Cord Phelps, but, how about Jason Donald..or, perhaps Thomas Neal, Michael Brantley, Kosuke Fukudome with Grady and Choo in CF/RF, respectively.. could the name "Weglarz" surface?..


The first decision this franchise needs to make is what will they do with Grady's option? That will define what position we need to fill. My hope would be to get a RH bat to go 1B/LF/RF to compete with LaPorta/Mills/Johnson? for playing time. Also, I'd keep Phelps in the IF for the moment. Teaching him 1B (as well as Donald) would not be an issue. If the FO has available $ to "break the bank" (they did spend in 2008-2009 aka Kerry Wood) they could pursue Berkman for that role and with the eye on him being 1B for a year with the occasional DH and maybe moving into the DH role after Hafner.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:19 pm

daingean wrote:The first decision this franchise needs to make is what will they do with Grady's option? That will define what position we need to fill. My hope would be to get a RH bat to go 1B/LF/RF to compete with LaPorta/Mills/Johnson? for playing time. Also, I'd keep Phelps in the IF for the moment. Teaching him 1B (as well as Donald) would not be an issue. If the FO has available $ to "break the bank" (they did spend in 2008-2009 aka Kerry Wood) they could pursue Berkman for that role and with the eye on him being 1B for a year with the occasional DH and maybe moving into the DH role after Hafner.


Agree, Grady's option is the #1 focus heading into the offseason. Will set the tone for how you go about building the club. #2 to me is deciding who to give extensions too (Choo, AC, Masterson?) and seeing if they are actually able to get an agreement worked out.

Berkman would be a great add as he's versatile (OF and 1B), and he obviously brings a bat. Not sure the Tribe will be able to get him though, fear too it'll require too many years and we'll end up regretting it the last year or two. With St. Louis saving some money on Carpenter for next year....would be a lil surprised if Berkman doesn't return (even if they bring back Pujols).
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby indians1 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:33 am

the first thing we have to do is be realistic about our options. Nick johnson and beau mills are not legitimate options.

Beau mills- after 3 seasons in AA finally got it going but didn't do well in columbus. He will be 26 years old next year.

We need to be honest with ourselves. We could start lou marson as Catcher and let carlos santana go between 1B and catcher. Santana- looks like a guy that could hit 25-30 HR's if he stays healthy and that would be fine at 1B. Laporta can play some 1B, but you move him back to the OF and give him 1 more year to try and revive or jumpstart a career that was had alot of potential.

They need to decide quickly on grady. If they think he is damaged goods, you can't bring him back. You cant give a guy that much money for the type of production he has given you the past few years. The indians have lost all credibility in keeping their top guys healthy especially as they approach 30. They need to look at spending grady's salary towards an OF.
They need to find our version of doug fistler. An under the radar guy that overperforms. Detroit is in the playoffs because they made shrude/ nonflashy moves and those are the ones that usually payoff.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:26 am

indians1 wrote:the first thing we have to do is be realistic about our options. Nick johnson and beau mills are not legitimate options.



I wouldn't go that far although I doubt Johnson will be around next year. All I'm saying is they should be in the competition next ST (if they are in the organization next spring) with LaPorta and a FA 1B/OF. Mills may be putting it together (sometimes it takes time for the light to come on). Anyway, I would be all for Marson at 1B and Santana in the OF (arm is too good for 1B) on a full time basis (although I think the Indians are committed to Santana at C) because a good catcher saves more runs than a good hitting catcher produces at the plate (came calling, pitch framing, controlling the running game).
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:11 pm

daingean wrote:I wouldn't go that far although I doubt Johnson will be around next year. All I'm saying is they should be in the competition next ST (if they are in the organization next spring) with LaPorta and a FA 1B/OF. Mills may be putting it together (sometimes it takes time for the light to come on). Anyway, I would be all for Marson at 1B and Santana in the OF (arm is too good for 1B) on a full time basis (although I think the Indians are committed to Santana at C) because a good catcher saves more runs than a good hitting catcher produces at the plate (came calling, pitch framing, controlling the running game).


Assuming this was a typo....

I leave Santana behind the plate. He hasn't been nearly as bad as some fans have made him out to be defensively. Took a step back this year for sure, but give him a healthy offseason before you move him off the position. Was always considered average to above average defensively back there. Trying to learn a new position on the fly (1B) couldn't have helped his development behind the plate either.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:32 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:I wouldn't go that far although I doubt Johnson will be around next year. All I'm saying is they should be in the competition next ST (if they are in the organization next spring) with LaPorta and a FA 1B/OF. Mills may be putting it together (sometimes it takes time for the light to come on). Anyway, I would be all for Marson at 1B and Santana in the OF (arm is too good for 1B) on a full time basis (although I think the Indians are committed to Santana at C) because a good catcher saves more runs than a good hitting catcher produces at the plate (came calling, pitch framing, controlling the running game).


Assuming this was a typo....

I leave Santana behind the plate. He hasn't been nearly as bad as some fans have made him out to be defensively. Took a step back this year for sure, but give him a healthy off-season before you move him off the position. Was always considered average to above average defensively back there. Trying to learn a new position on the fly (1B) couldn't have helped his development behind the plate either.


Not really a typo. I'm ok with leaving him at C or moving him full time to another position. I'm of the opinion that a catcher's primary job is defensive. Let's face it Santana will be the center (along with others of our offense moving forward). My preference is to have a very good defensive catcher and Santana playing the field because his (hopefully) his bat will be too valuable. Catchers typically miss between 20 and 40 games a year that's 20-40 games I'd rather have Santana in the line up. I also believe the rigors of learning the catching position has set his offense back a bit. I also think that if Santana spends those 20-40 games playing 1B he won't really be good at either one defensively. I think teams get a bit greedy by trying to keep offensive stars at C (unless they are a very good defensive catcher i.e. Brian McCann or Ivan Rodriguez) and I'm not sure that really plays out with wins in the end.

That said. If he is going to be a C then he needs to concentrate on that position.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:48 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:I wouldn't go that far although I doubt Johnson will be around next year. All I'm saying is they should be in the competition next ST (if they are in the organization next spring) with LaPorta and a FA 1B/OF. Mills may be putting it together (sometimes it takes time for the light to come on). Anyway, I would be all for Marson at 1B and Santana in the OF (arm is too good for 1B) on a full time basis (although I think the Indians are committed to Santana at C) because a good catcher saves more runs than a good hitting catcher produces at the plate (came calling, pitch framing, controlling the running game).


Assuming this was a typo....

I leave Santana behind the plate. He hasn't been nearly as bad as some fans have made him out to be defensively. Took a step back this year for sure, but give him a healthy off-season before you move him off the position. Was always considered average to above average defensively back there. Trying to learn a new position on the fly (1B) couldn't have helped his development behind the plate either.


Not really a typo. I'm ok with leaving him at C or moving him full time to another position. I'm of the opinion that a catcher's primary job is defensive. Let's face it Santana will be the center (along with others of our offense moving forward). My preference is to have a very good defensive catcher and Santana playing the field because his (hopefully) his bat will be too valuable. Catchers typically miss between 20 and 40 games a year that's 20-40 games I'd rather have Santana in the line up. I also believe the rigors of learning the catching position has set his offense back a bit. I also think that if Santana spends those 20-40 games playing 1B he won't really be good at either one defensively. I think teams get a bit greedy by trying to keep offensive stars at C (unless they are a very good defensive catcher i.e. Brian McCann or Ivan Rodriguez) and I'm not sure that really plays out with wins in the end.

That said. If he is going to be a C then he needs to concentrate on that position.


You said you're "all for Marson at 1B"...I was assuming that was a typo. Or you think Marson should play 1B (and Santana OF)?

As far as McCann...well his defensive WAR (BR) has been below average every year but 2010, which was also the only year he's thrown out over 25% of base stealers. FRAA likes McCann a lot (then again, it likes Santana behind the plate too). McCann is defienitely solid back there, but I fully believe Santana can be that good behind the plate(think he can be even better actually).

Agree to disagree on Santana, as I think learning 1B has been what's set his offense back, not the rigors of learning to catch. Not a huge difference but offensive numbers are better as a catcher vs 1B. Probably means nothing but he wouldn't be the first guy that hits better when he's playing a position he's more comfortable with.

I just think you have to leave him behind the plate for 2012. Give him a full healthy winter and then judge him behind the plate. DH spot likely opens up too, plus you'll have a better idea of LaPorta and how the OF will look. Catcher is one spot I don't mess with next year, but we'll see how the Tribe feels about it.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:I wouldn't go that far although I doubt Johnson will be around next year. All I'm saying is they should be in the competition next ST (if they are in the organization next spring) with LaPorta and a FA 1B/OF. Mills may be putting it together (sometimes it takes time for the light to come on). Anyway, I would be all for Marson at 1B and Santana in the OF (arm is too good for 1B) on a full time basis (although I think the Indians are committed to Santana at C) because a good catcher saves more runs than a good hitting catcher produces at the plate (came calling, pitch framing, controlling the running game).


Assuming this was a typo....

I leave Santana behind the plate. He hasn't been nearly as bad as some fans have made him out to be defensively. Took a step back this year for sure, but give him a healthy off-season before you move him off the position. Was always considered average to above average defensively back there. Trying to learn a new position on the fly (1B) couldn't have helped his development behind the plate either.


Not really a typo. I'm ok with leaving him at C or moving him full time to another position. I'm of the opinion that a catcher's primary job is defensive. Let's face it Santana will be the center (along with others of our offense moving forward). My preference is to have a very good defensive catcher and Santana playing the field because his (hopefully) his bat will be too valuable. Catchers typically miss between 20 and 40 games a year that's 20-40 games I'd rather have Santana in the line up. I also believe the rigors of learning the catching position has set his offense back a bit. I also think that if Santana spends those 20-40 games playing 1B he won't really be good at either one defensively. I think teams get a bit greedy by trying to keep offensive stars at C (unless they are a very good defensive catcher i.e. Brian McCann or Ivan Rodriguez) and I'm not sure that really plays out with wins in the end.

That said. If he is going to be a C then he needs to concentrate on that position.


You said you're "all for Marson at 1B"...I was assuming that was a typo. Or you think Marson should play 1B (and Santana OF)?

As far as McCann...well his defensive WAR (BR) has been below average every year but 2010, which was also the only year he's thrown out over 25% of base stealers. FRAA likes McCann a lot (then again, it likes Santana behind the plate too). McCann is defienitely solid back there, but I fully believe Santana can be that good behind the plate(think he can be even better actually).

Agree to disagree on Santana, as I think learning 1B has been what's set his offense back, not the rigors of learning to catch. Not a huge difference but offensive numbers are better as a catcher vs 1B. Probably means nothing but he wouldn't be the first guy that hits better when he's playing a position he's more comfortable with.

I just think you have to leave him behind the plate for 2012. Give him a full healthy winter and then judge him behind the plate. DH spot likely opens up too, plus you'll have a better idea of LaPorta and how the OF will look. Catcher is one spot I don't mess with next year, but we'll see how the Tribe feels about it.


ok...Yes Typo....Marson stays at C.

As far as McCann, I know defensive stats really lean heavily on the stolen base % but he does an excellent job calling games and handling pitchers. Plus stolen bases are really off the pitcher not so much the catcher.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:01 pm

daingean wrote:ok...Yes Typo....Marson stays at C.

As far as McCann, I know defensive stats really lean heavily on the stolen base % but he does an excellent job calling games and handling pitchers. Plus stolen bases are really off the pitcher not so much the catcher.


ha, ok. That's what I figured but seen some crazy stuff.

As far as SBs, it's a combination. Yeah a lot of SBs are off the pitcher, but can't blame them for all the steals. Agree on McCann behind good behind the plate and at handling the pitchers. Does help too though when you have as good a staff as the Braves have had.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby timdav » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:28 am

Though I hear he's a great person, I have seen enough of Sizemore in a Tribe uniform.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:12 am

Santana is a horrible defensive catcher, and his bat isn't good enough to make up for that. I'm tired of watching ACab and Donald/Kipnis gettting to test their vertical jumps on Santana's throws to second that he tends to either airmail into center field or bounce in the dirt. He's also afraid to block the plate after his knee injury. I don't like the way he blocks pitchers in the dirt, either.

If we had a Miggy Cabrera at first base it would be different, but we don't have squat at first base, so I'm for putting Santana there and let him concentrate on what he does best, which is hit. Marson is fine as the regular catcher.

The best course of action for Grady is to decline his option and offer him a deal with a modest base salary plus incentives for plate appearances. I don't think there's a team out there that would do more than that. So next year it's Brantley, Grady, and Choo in the OF with Crowe, Carerra, Duncan and Neal competing for the backup spots. The infield is Chiz, ACab, Kipnis and Santana with Donald and possibly Hannahan as the reserves, although Hannahan will leave if somebody offers him a starting job. Chiz has shown me enough with the bat recently that I'm ready to commit to him next year.

Marson catches and we sign a Sal Fasano type, or have Santana catch when Marson needs a day off and put Hannahan at first, or LaPorta if Hannahan leaves.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:51 pm

I think it is WAY too early to give up on Santana as a catcher. Up until this year he was considered an above average defensive catcher. Almost universally among everyone in the game. I don't know what happened to him this year as he never, ever performed like this behind the plate in the minors. He was lazy this year no doubt, but I also wonder if there is a psychological thing at play where he has lost confidence back there because of early errors/issues....and of course I wonder if the injury from last year has affected him.

In any case, he needs to continue catching. His ability to play some 1B and having Marson around will help to where we can maybe limit him to 90-100 games catching next year....but he should still get the majority of the time back there.

This is important especially since 1B and LF are the only two positions the Indians can truly upgrade in the offseason. You make Santana the 1B, then it leaves just LF as an option to fill. And if they somehow were to bring one of Sizemore/Fukudome back, then it leaves nowhere they can add an everyday guy.

Which is why Santana needs to stay at catcher.....for now.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:15 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I think it is WAY too early to give up on Santana as a catcher. Up until this year he was considered an above average defensive catcher. Almost universally among everyone in the game. I don't know what happened to him this year as he never, ever performed like this behind the plate in the minors. He was lazy this year no doubt, but I also wonder if there is a psychological thing at play where he has lost confidence back there because of early errors/issues....and of course I wonder if the injury from last year has affected him.

In any case, he needs to continue catching. His ability to play some 1B and having Marson around will help to where we can maybe limit him to 90-100 games catching next year....but he should still get the majority of the time back there.

This is important especially since 1B and LF are the only two positions the Indians can truly upgrade in the offseason. You make Santana the 1B, then it leaves just LF as an option to fill. And if they somehow were to bring one of Sizemore/Fukudome back, then it leaves nowhere they can add an everyday guy.

Which is why Santana needs to stay at catcher.....for now.

Keeping Carlos Santana behind the plate gives the Indians the luxury of a potential elite hitting catcher. That, in and of itself, is reason enough to keep him there. It's also his best position. As far as his defense goes, he's a professional athlete that is no doubt quite aware of the areas that he needs to work on. He's never shied away from work in the past, so, there is no reason to believe he will be any different in the future.

As far as the reasoning that in order to attract a player that will upgrade 1B or LF, an every day spot has to be kept clear.. maybe.. maybe not.. It sure doesn't hurt if it's a FA that is being discussed. IMHO, the Indians will not be in heavily involved in the FA market.. and shouldn't be. The FA market is expensive and hasn't been kind to the Indians over the years.. The two Game Changing Impact batters at 1B are just not in the Indians budget.. IDK who would be considered for a spot in LF.. Beltran or Berkman?.. sort of the same issue as with 1B..
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:49 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Keeping Carlos Santana behind the plate gives the Indians the luxury of a potential elite hitting catcher. That, in and of itself, is reason enough to keep him there. It's also his best position. As far as his defense goes, he's a professional athlete that is no doubt quite aware of the areas that he needs to work on. He's never shied away from work in the past, so, there is no reason to believe he will be any different in the future.

As far as the reasoning that in order to attract a player that will upgrade 1B or LF, an every day spot has to be kept clear.. maybe.. maybe not.. It sure doesn't hurt if it's a FA that is being discussed. IMHO, the Indians will not be in heavily involved in the FA market.. and shouldn't be. The FA market is expensive and hasn't been kind to the Indians over the years.. The two Game Changing Impact batters at 1B are just not in the Indians budget.. IDK who would be considered for a spot in LF.. Beltran or Berkman?.. sort of the same issue as with 1B..


The A/B FA market is definitely the only way to go if your budget can sustain overpaying for a guy, which I don't think the Indians can afford to do. Now getting the C/D type prospects is a hit and miss type situation (i.e. Eddie Murray/Delucci one worked - one failed). If the Tribe goes the A/B market path, I see it being in the B class (i.e. a Willingham or Berkman) and not the A class (Fielder/Albert P./C. Beltran). The only reason I like the idea of a Willingham/Berkman addition is that you are getting the 1B/OF player which gives the young guys competition (which makes them better) and Acta roster flexibility.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:54 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Keeping Carlos Santana behind the plate gives the Indians the luxury of a potential elite hitting catcher. That, in and of itself, is reason enough to keep him there. It's also his best position. As far as his defense goes, he's a professional athlete that is no doubt quite aware of the areas that he needs to work on. He's never shied away from work in the past, so, there is no reason to believe he will be any different in the future.

As far as the reasoning that in order to attract a player that will upgrade 1B or LF, an every day spot has to be kept clear.. maybe.. maybe not.. It sure doesn't hurt if it's a FA that is being discussed. IMHO, the Indians will not be in heavily involved in the FA market.. and shouldn't be. The FA market is expensive and hasn't been kind to the Indians over the years.. The two Game Changing Impact batters at 1B are just not in the Indians budget.. IDK who would be considered for a spot in LF.. Beltran or Berkman?.. sort of the same issue as with 1B..


The A/B FA market is definitely the only way to go if your budget can sustain overpaying for a guy, which I don't think the Indians can afford to do. Now getting the C/D type prospects is a hit and miss type situation (i.e. Eddie Murray/Delucci one worked - one failed). If the Tribe goes the A/B market path, I see it being in the B class (i.e. a Willingham or Berkman) and not the A class (Fielder/Albert P./C. Beltran). The only reason I like the idea of a Willingham/Berkman addition is that you are getting the 1B/OF player which gives the young guys competition (which makes them better) and Acta roster flexibility.

Berkman would be nice but at 36 he is a bit long in the tooth and will likely be way too expensive for Cleveland. Willingham might be more practical since he is a bit younger but would likely have less impact and be a difficult sign financially. The trade market would probably be less costly. :pleasantry:
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:02 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Berkman would be nice but at 36 he is a bit long in the tooth and will likely be way too expensive for Cleveland. Willingham might be more practical since he is a bit younger but would likely have less impact and be a difficult sign financially. The trade market would probably be less costly. :pleasantry:


I don't disagree with you. I think Berkman (2 years with option) can be had for a shorter term than Willingham (4 years) which may be more beneficial for the Indians going forward. I think Berkman and Willingham are long shots and would expect more of a Derek Lee type signing (short term signing without a lot of $$$). I am only using Lee as an example, not that I think the FO will go that route.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:09 pm

daingean wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Berkman would be nice but at 36 he is a bit long in the tooth and will likely be way too expensive for Cleveland. Willingham might be more practical since he is a bit younger but would likely have less impact and be a difficult sign financially. The trade market would probably be less costly. :pleasantry:


I don't disagree with you. I think Berkman (2 years with option) can be had for a shorter term than Willingham (4 years) which may be more beneficial for the Indians going forward. I think Berkman and Willingham are long shots and would expect more of a Derek Lee type signing (short term signing without a lot of $$$). I am only using Lee as an example, not that I think the FO will go that route.


Love the idea of D-Lee.. great glove around the bag at first base (and the Indians REALLY are going to need that.. if you watched any of the throws from Hannahan, Chisenhall, Drooobs, Donald, Kipnis, Phelps).. you NEED someone who can make the tough scoop.. dig the ball out of the dirt.. and play that spot. D-Lee's right handed-ness and 36/37 year odl veteran presence, doesn't hurt either
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:27 pm

I'd be on board with Lee as well. He's not as good as he used to be perhaps, but still has a good glove and is only 2 years away from hitting 35 HR's. Plus he's really good against lefties. You could even consider a platoon between him and Nick Johnson for instance, but that is unlikely imo.

I think giving him a 1-year $6M-$7M deal with a club option for next year would seem reasonable.

Just wanted to add another name to the outfield mix: John Mayberry Jr. He's been playing well for the Phillies, but doesn't seem to have a starting spot for next season. We could easily use him for all 3 OF positions with his floor being a solid 4th OF'er.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:31 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
I think giving him a 1-year $6M-$7M deal with a club option for next year would seem reasonable.


I think he could be had for $3M to $4 based on his recent stats. I remember his uncle Leron having a big weekend with the Tribe (like 3 Hr's) in '74. I think I was at one of those games (if not that weekend it was another game where he hit an HR).
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:45 pm

The play has to be for Berkman, if you gave him all of Grady's option money and add a little, you could offer him a solid 2-3 yr-ish deal. He still might not take it but he has to be your first target without a doubt.
Derek Lee, Willingham even Beltran would be the next best options.. A couple of key adds would improve the team immensely IMO - Berkman being the golden ring...
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:13 pm

criznit2009 wrote:The play has to be for Berkman, if you gave him all of Grady's option money and add a little, you could offer him a solid 2-3 yr-ish deal. He still might not take it but he has to be your first target without a doubt.
Derek Lee, Willingham even Beltran would be the next best options.. A couple of key adds would improve the team immensely IMO - Berkman being the golden ring...


I'd rather have Grady than Derek Lee personally. Guy flopped big time in his first stint in the AL with the O's. No thanks unless it's a Kearns-like deal. Beltran....for the year Boras will demand, I again take Grady. Willingham....not a fan of losing a 1st round pick if ours isn't protected and he's a Type A.

Berkman would be great....he didn't seem to like the AL though.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:The play has to be for Berkman, if you gave him all of Grady's option money and add a little, you could offer him a solid 2-3 yr-ish deal. He still might not take it but he has to be your first target without a doubt.
Derek Lee, Willingham even Beltran would be the next best options.. A couple of key adds would improve the team immensely IMO - Berkman being the golden ring...


I'd rather have Grady than Derek Lee personally. Guy flopped big time in his first stint in the AL with the O's. No thanks unless it's a Kearns-like deal. Beltran....for the year Boras will demand, I again take Grady. Willingham....not a fan of losing a 1st round pick if ours isn't protected and he's a Type A.

Berkman would be great....he didn't seem to like the AL though.

As of this writing, the Indians would be picking # 16, so the first round pick would not be protected.. Adding Willingham will cost around the same amount at Grady's option, but could be for more than the single season that is left if Grady's option is picked up.... so, for no difference in payroll plus a commitment for at least one more year, the Indians would get Willingham and his caveats..

The Free Agent market for OF'ers just doesn't make a lot of sense for the Indians.. The suggestion about John Mayberry Jr is intriguing.. He has been bounced around a bit in favor of Dom Brown, who the Phillies would love to see succeed. The Phillies have a double whammy coming w/r to their OF situation. Raul Ibanez will be FA's after the 2011 season and it's unlikely he'll be retained.. Hunter Pence has ARB III coming up, so he'll add significant payroll to the Phillies who are on the threshold of the Luxury Tax... The Phillies will also be looking at the loss of their SS, Jimmy Rollins. So, from a need perspective, the Phillies may be in the market for a middle infielder to replace J-Roll.. The Phillies are quite familiar with and were very high on Jason Donald who has proven both his tenacity and versatility during the 2011 season.. seems like a match.. no?
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby jellis » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:05 pm

criznit2009 wrote:The play has to be for Berkman, if you gave him all of Grady's option money and add a little, you could offer him a solid 2-3 yr-ish deal. He still might not take it but he has to be your first target without a doubt.
Derek Lee, Willingham even Beltran would be the next best options.. A couple of key adds would improve the team immensely IMO - Berkman being the golden ring...



Berkman is a having a big bounce back in the NL, looked lost in the AL. Count me in the no way camp for him, his age, fact he said its all about the money already, and other concerns make me think horrible fit
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby BrianM » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:27 am

I just posted this in the offseason acquisition thread, but it looks like it belongs here. The topics of these threads are getting very similar, a merge may be in order.

daingean wrote:
BrianM wrote:
toledobuck wrote:1) Berkman - This is not going to happen. He will stay in STL


I agree that he will most likely want to stay in STL, but I was wondering if this was an educated predicition, or you have actually read that he wants to stay in STL and the cardinals plan on having him back next season. Berkman just fits our needs perfectly, and I would be very upset if we did not even have the opportunity to outbid another team for his services.


I wouldn't be so sure. If St. Louis really ponies up for Albert there may not be enough to offer Berkman what he is worth. Now there will be several teams that will vie for his bat and that may put him out of reach for this team (if the team is prudent with their money). I would say the odds of Berkman staying in St. Louis drops to 60% if/when Albert signs. The odds he lands in Cleveland would be around 8% but the FO needs to try.


Good observation. This definitely decreases the likelihood of him staying with the Cardinals unless he offers them an extremely team friendly deal.

indians1 wrote:What we need is an OF'er. We need to stop messing around and play santana more at 1B. In his first full season, the guy hit 25 HR's. Why do we need to waste money and possibly lose a draft pick over signing a guy for a position we don't need.

Let lou marson try and win the catcher job and see what he can do with more playing time.

Laporta should go between 1B, OF and DH and we should give him one more year to prove himself. He really needs to change his swing because it looks like he generates no movement from his pelvis and swings too heavy with his upper body. That is what grady does which is why he has developed all these injuries with his knees.

We need to go out and sign or trade for an OF'er with some power. Even if choo gets some of his power back, we need another guy in the OF with power to go along with brantley as the leadoff hitter.


I do think we need an outfielder (Upton would be nice), but I could not disagree more about moving Santana. IMO, the only rational argument that can be made about Santana moving to first is his lack of defense behind the plate, and that really can't be argued after one full major league season. I know this has been discussed so many times, but why would we EVER want to move Santana to first? He still has value there, but it is nowhere close to his value at catcher. Any given year there are Lance Berkman types we can sign (If were willing to spend a little money) that could match Santana's production. There is rarely a year when a Catcher as talented as Santana is on the FA market, and if there is there will only be about four teams rich enough to spend the money on them. I Don't think Santana should be catching every single day, but there is absolutely no reason he shouldn't be behind the plate 5 days a week.

What this team needs is an EVERYDAY first basemen. After reading some of the comments about the Chiz/Alonso trade, Im starting to think twice because people have pointed out that it really is way easier to find productive first basemen in this league than any other position on the field, and we are one of the few teams that has been successful without one. If we could add a Lance Berkman type player to our team for the next year or two, we could avoid the crappy platoon we keeping sending out onto the field at first and put Santana behind the plate 80% of the time, which gives us an EVERYDAY infield where every player is above average, some with all star potential. That is what a playoff infield looks like. Im not saying we couldnt be competitive with laporta/mills/duncan/hannahan at first, but a productive, everyday rug at first base could completely tie the room together.

God I want Lance Berkman so bad. It just makes to much sense to me....but I have a bad feeling someones gonna piss on my rug.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:52 am

BrianM wrote:I do think we need an outfielder (Upton would be nice), but I could not disagree more about moving Santana. IMO, the only rational argument that can be made about Santana moving to first is his lack of defense behind the plate, and that really can't be argued after one full major league season. I know this has been discussed so many times, but why would we EVER want to move Santana to first? He still has value there, but it is nowhere close to his value at catcher. Any given year there are Lance Berkman types we can sign (If were willing to spend a little money) that could match Santana's production. There is rarely a year when a Catcher as talented as Santana is on the FA market, and if there is there will only be about four teams rich enough to spend the money on them. I Don't think Santana should be catching every single day, but there is absolutely no reason he shouldn't be behind the plate 5 days a week.

What this team needs is an EVERYDAY first basemen. After reading some of the comments about the Chiz/Alonso trade, Im starting to think twice because people have pointed out that it really is way easier to find productive first basemen in this league than any other position on the field, and we are one of the few teams that has been successful without one. If we could add a Lance Berkman type player to our team for the next year or two, we could avoid the crappy platoon we keeping sending out onto the field at first and put Santana behind the plate 80% of the time, which gives us an EVERYDAY infield where every player is above average, some with all star potential. That is what a playoff infield looks like. Im not saying we couldnt be competitive with laporta/mills/duncan/hannahan at first, but a productive, everyday rug at first base could completely tie the room together.

God I want Lance Berkman so bad. It just makes to much sense to me....but I have a bad feeling someones gonna piss on my rug.


Another argument wrt moving Santana from behind the dish is that he appears to be a significant cog (or at least projected to be a significant cog in our O). To have a guy like that that is so central to your offense, you want him in the line-up every single day. Starting C's catch between 120-140 games a year. I'm not writing off his defensive ability which I think isn't that bad but I want him in the line-up every single day (or 158-162 games a year). Plus if moved permanently from behind the dish, I would expect his position to be somewhere other than 1B. 1B is just to give him a rest from behind the plate and not tax him too much. DH really isn't an option in his off days because it really restricts Acta's flexibility unless we carry 3 catchers.

I would give up our 1st rounder next year if we can get Berkman. I'm not sure we will get him (8% chance really) but he would be a great addition and we should try. Willingham - I'm not sure he's worth a 1st rounder (as it stands now our pick is unprotected). We do need a RH 1B/OF option and either it will be a reclamation project like Derek Lee or a top of the line FA.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:11 am

Aside from Free Agents who are more proven, but, typically, show diminishing returns for increasing resources, the Indians FO has composed the team with a mix of draft picks and astute trades... All of the draft picks are young and under control for the foreseeable future. There are just a scant few vets that remain that may be considered for trade. The minor league system has some interesting prospects, however, impact prospects look a little weak. So, the two fold question becomes: Who do the Indians trade for who?

The answer to who do the Indians trade is relative simple. The Indians have excess Bullpen Arms & Middle Infielders

The answer to who do the Indians attempt to acquire isn't so simple. Ideally the player or players acquired as every day position player candidates will be MLB ready or near MLB ready, right handed, OF/1B. Handed-ness of the starting pitcher is less important that ability. So, with that said, who fits? (note: some of the suggestions are clearly out of the box thinking..)

SP:
-Yu Darvish will be plenty expensive and risky, but would not cost any prospects. Darvish would be ideal for the Indians and their emphasis on Asian players currently on the roster and those making their way through the minor league system. He would be a very risky addition...

C:
-Jesus Montero: Started like a house on fire for the NYY's in a DH only role..and has cooled off considerably and is now on the verge of blowing whatever chance he had to be in the post season. His approach is reminiscent of a very young Edgar Martinez. This guy, when he figures it out, can flat out hit. In the interim, he's gonna swing and miss, A LOT. He could be a mediocre to poor LF'er or an average to below average defensive 1B as well.
-Yasmani Grandal: A better defender than Devin Messorraco for the Reds, but not as flashy with the lumber. He could be part of a bigger deal.

OF:
-Domonic Brown: Like many "can't miss" prospects, Dom Brown has missed.. so far. He's a lefty, so that doesn't exactly help the unbalanced handed-ness of the Indians, but the tools and projection say he's the goods. His OF-mate, John Mayberry Jr, a right handed version of Dom Brown, may be a better target.
-Logan Morrison: Is currently embroiled in a messy PR deal with the ownership of the Marlins. Otherwise, he'd be an untouchable. His first full season will soon be over. He has vastly improved his power output, and his run production (RBI's and Runs Scored0 while not affecting his K/AB rate. One area has has digressed is his pitch selection as he's cut his BB/AB rate almost in half thereby negatively affecting his OBP. Logan's teammate, Mike Stanton parallels the phillies situation, i.e. Stanton is a RH'd version of "LoMo", but would be vastly more expensive to acquire.
-Yonder Alonso: While he doesn't have the personality of Albert Bell, he does have the kind of pop in his bat that can project to being a right handed power hitting, mediocre defensive left fielder. He could be the other part of the package that the Indians and Reds discuss. Alonso's best defensive spot would be as a 1B.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:48 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Aside from Free Agents who are more proven, but, typically, show diminishing returns for increasing resources, the Indians FO has composed the team with a mix of draft picks and astute trades... All of the draft picks are young and under control for the foreseeable future. There are just a scant few vets that remain that may be considered for trade. The minor league system has some interesting prospects, however, impact prospects look a little weak. So, the two fold question becomes: Who do the Indians trade for who?

The answer to who do the Indians trade is relative simple. The Indians have excess Bullpen Arms & Middle Infielders

The answer to who do the Indians attempt to acquire isn't so simple. Ideally the player or players acquired as every day position player candidates will be MLB ready or near MLB ready, right handed, OF/1B. Handed-ness of the starting pitcher is less important that ability. So, with that said, who fits? (note: some of the suggestions are clearly out of the box thinking..)

SP:
-Yu Darvish will be plenty expensive and risky, but would not cost any prospects. Darvish would be ideal for the Indians and their emphasis on Asian players currently on the roster and those making their way through the minor league system. He would be a very risky addition...

C:
-Jesus Montero: Started like a house on fire for the NYY's in a DH only role..and has cooled off considerably and is now on the verge of blowing whatever chance he had to be in the post season. His approach is reminiscent of a very young Edgar Martinez. This guy, when he figures it out, can flat out hit. In the interim, he's gonna swing and miss, A LOT. He could be a mediocre to poor LF'er or an average to below average defensive 1B as well.
-Yasmani Grandal: A better defender than Devin Messorraco for the Reds, but not as flashy with the lumber. He could be part of a bigger deal.

OF:
-Domonic Brown: Like many "can't miss" prospects, Dom Brown has missed.. so far. He's a lefty, so that doesn't exactly help the unbalanced handed-ness of the Indians, but the tools and projection say he's the goods. His OF-mate, John Mayberry Jr, a right handed version of Dom Brown, may be a better target.
-Logan Morrison: Is currently embroiled in a messy PR deal with the ownership of the Marlins. Otherwise, he'd be an untouchable. His first full season will soon be over. He has vastly improved his power output, and his run production (RBI's and Runs Scored0 while not affecting his K/AB rate. One area has has digressed is his pitch selection as he's cut his BB/AB rate almost in half thereby negatively affecting his OBP. Logan's teammate, Mike Stanton parallels the phillies situation, i.e. Stanton is a RH'd version of "LoMo", but would be vastly more expensive to acquire.
-Yonder Alonso: While he doesn't have the personality of Albert Bell, he does have the kind of pop in his bat that can project to being a right handed power hitting, mediocre defensive left fielder. He could be the other part of the package that the Indians and Reds discuss. Alonso's best defensive spot would be as a 1B.


You can scratch Darvish off your list. With teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Mariners, Rangers bidding for him, we'd have no chance of landing him.

Dominic Brown, Mike Stanton and perhaps Grandal are pretty much considered untouchable. Especially Stanton.

Yonder Alonso I think could be traded for, but will cost us and he's lefthanded not righthanded.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:19 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Aside from Free Agents who are more proven, but, typically, show diminishing returns for increasing resources, the Indians FO has composed the team with a mix of draft picks and astute trades... All of the draft picks are young and under control for the foreseeable future. There are just a scant few vets that remain that may be considered for trade. The minor league system has some interesting prospects, however, impact prospects look a little weak. So, the two fold question becomes: Who do the Indians trade for who?

The answer to who do the Indians trade is relative simple. The Indians have excess Bullpen Arms & Middle Infielders

The answer to who do the Indians attempt to acquire isn't so simple. Ideally the player or players acquired as every day position player candidates will be MLB ready or near MLB ready, right handed, OF/1B. Handed-ness of the starting pitcher is less important that ability. So, with that said, who fits? (note: some of the suggestions are clearly out of the box thinking..)

SP:
-Yu Darvish will be plenty expensive and risky, but would not cost any prospects. Darvish would be ideal for the Indians and their emphasis on Asian players currently on the roster and those making their way through the minor league system. He would be a very risky addition...

C:
-Jesus Montero: Started like a house on fire for the NYY's in a DH only role..and has cooled off considerably and is now on the verge of blowing whatever chance he had to be in the post season. His approach is reminiscent of a very young Edgar Martinez. This guy, when he figures it out, can flat out hit. In the interim, he's gonna swing and miss, A LOT. He could be a mediocre to poor LF'er or an average to below average defensive 1B as well.
-Yasmani Grandal: A better defender than Devin Messorraco for the Reds, but not as flashy with the lumber. He could be part of a bigger deal.

OF:
-Domonic Brown: Like many "can't miss" prospects, Dom Brown has missed.. so far. He's a lefty, so that doesn't exactly help the unbalanced handed-ness of the Indians, but the tools and projection say he's the goods. His OF-mate, John Mayberry Jr, a right handed version of Dom Brown, may be a better target.
-Logan Morrison: Is currently embroiled in a messy PR deal with the ownership of the Marlins. Otherwise, he'd be an untouchable. His first full season will soon be over. He has vastly improved his power output, and his run production (RBI's and Runs Scored0 while not affecting his K/AB rate. One area has has digressed is his pitch selection as he's cut his BB/AB rate almost in half thereby negatively affecting his OBP. Logan's teammate, Mike Stanton parallels the phillies situation, i.e. Stanton is a RH'd version of "LoMo", but would be vastly more expensive to acquire.
-Yonder Alonso: While he doesn't have the personality of Albert Bell, he does have the kind of pop in his bat that can project to being a right handed power hitting, mediocre defensive left fielder. He could be the other part of the package that the Indians and Reds discuss. Alonso's best defensive spot would be as a 1B.


You can scratch Darvish off your list. With teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Mariners, Rangers bidding for him, we'd have no chance of landing him.

Dominic Brown, Mike Stanton and perhaps Grandal are pretty much considered untouchable. Especially Stanton.

Yonder Alonso I think could be traded for, but will cost us and he's lefthanded not righthanded.
yep.. my bad..
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:25 pm

jellis wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:The play has to be for Berkman, if you gave him all of Grady's option money and add a little, you could offer him a solid 2-3 yr-ish deal. He still might not take it but he has to be your first target without a doubt.
Derek Lee, Willingham even Beltran would be the next best options.. A couple of key adds would improve the team immensely IMO - Berkman being the golden ring...



Berkman is a having a big bounce back in the NL, looked lost in the AL. Count me in the no way camp for him, his age, fact he said its all about the money already, and other concerns make me think horrible fit


In fairness, Berkman was hurt in NY. And he did hit .299 with a .405 OBP from sept 1st on last year to close out the regular season for the Yanks. Power was really the only thing he lost in the AL. Also wonder if DHing as much as he did is one thing that bothered him? Some guys just hate not being in the game and throws them off (maybe this had nothing to do with it though).

I'd be leary of him too. But I'd defintely look at him....and would offer a deal similar to the one the Angels gave Bobby Abreu (same age at time). 2 years/$19M with an option that could vest based off plate appearances. I highly doubt he goes for it though. Worth a shot at least IMO though. Could maybe go a little higher knowing Hafner should be off the books year 2.


EDIT: well, moot point
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby jellis » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:43 pm

Darvish is hyped, but since Ichiro who was the last import to really live up the billing, its a fools bet to sign from japan
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby daingean » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:27 am

jellis wrote:Darvish is hyped, but since Ichiro who was the last import to really live up the billing, its a fools bet to sign from japan


Plus you have to bid and pay a price just to negotiate right? I remember the BoSox paid $50mil just to have the rights to negotiate with Dice-K. Maybe I'm wrong on Darvish but he is 24 years old and should still be under control of the Japanese team.
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:16 pm

daingean wrote:
jellis wrote:Darvish is hyped, but since Ichiro who was the last import to really live up the billing, its a fools bet to sign from japan


Plus you have to bid and pay a price just to negotiate right? I remember the BoSox paid $50mil just to have the rights to negotiate with Dice-K. Maybe I'm wrong on Darvish but he is 24 years old and should still be under control of the Japanese team.


Hideki Matsui did pretty well. Maybe not "Godzilla" like numbers but don't think the Yanks regret that deal at all.


Agree though, Japanese players are typically not worth it. I'd make a bid on Darvish if you like what you see, but no way we win competing with the likes of the Yanks, BoSox, etc. And yes, I believe he can't be a free agent til 2014 so Darvish would have to be posted. Saw one rumor that said a $65M posting fee would not be out of the question....that would be insane. Nearly a third of the teams in baseball didn't have an entire team payroll that high this year. The posting system is ridiculous IMO, and I hope it's addressed (along with all intertional signings) in the new CBA.


Hisashi Iwakuma is a free agent though and could come to the US. Was posted last year and the A's won but failed to reach an agreement. Believe he dealt with some injuries this year, but has been scouted by a few teams (including the Phillies). According to the reports though, was only topping out around 88-89 mph in his start a week ago...pass
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Re: First Base or Left Field

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:18 pm

Yu Darvish will be posted and will probably end up costing someone without any brains a 6 year $ 120 + MM price tag including the posting fee. His stuff translates well to the ML.. He has a 93-95 MPH riding fastball and a late breaking nasty curve ball that falls off the table late..

He's just too expensive for the Indians, but, appears to be the goods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLGB69siot8
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