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2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby artgold » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:43 pm

artgold wrote:Espino's three outings since promoted back to Columbus, 15.1 innings pitched, 6 hits, 3 walks, 3 earned runs and 14 strikeouts.


Espino adds 4 more innings, giving up 1 hit, 0 walks, 0 earned runs and 6 strikeouts.

For those keeping track at home, that now means in his last four outings since promoted back to Columbus he has gone 19.1 innings pitched, 7 hits, 3 walks, 3 earned runs and 20 strikeouts.

Just thought I'd stay consistent here...
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:51 am

With Tomlin on the DL they need to find somebody to take his spot in the rotation, either for a couple of starts or the rest of the season. He has an elbow strain and they might take the conservative approach and shut him down. Is Espino the guy, or do they go with Gomez since he's been up here before? They wouldn't give McAllister the ball again, would they?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:13 pm

Prosecutor wrote:With Tomlin on the DL they need to find somebody to take his spot in the rotation, either for a couple of starts or the rest of the season. He has an elbow strain and they might take the conservative approach and shut him down. Is Espino the guy, or do they go with Gomez since he's been up here before? They wouldn't give McAllister the ball again, would they?


It will be Gomez. If for some reason it is not, then McAllister is option 2. Espino is not being considered for a ML role this year.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby tribefollower » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:40 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:The Indians are set at 3rd with Hannahan and Chiz. They're also set at 1st with Santana and LaPorta.

If Goedert comes up the logical spot for him would be DH to replace Hafner. The question is whether he would be more productive than Duncan, who also is a right-handed power hitter and was the DH last night.


At some point the FO will have to decide if Goederts bat would be an improvement over LaPorta.. Perhaps they already have and knowing how they operate I could see them as already making that decision without a single ML bat for Goedert...


Goedert was DFAed this year....and not a single team felt he was worthy of a 40-man spot. Seems as though several teams may have the same idea the Tribe has...


No question Goedert has had some ups and downs, but he keeps coming back...And this year he is finishing the season stronger than he did last year.

Hard to read a lot into the DFA and not being picked up by another team...it was a bit of functioning of timing combined with Geodert's mid-season struggles, not to mention it is not terribly common for a DFA player to be picked up mid-season by another team.

I often wonder what the Indians are thinking, and the Goedert case is one of those. I don't know that their thinking is wrong. It could very well be right. They are focused on getting to the playoffs and are taking some gambles. They are getting some good energy and play from their young guys, but are also doing a lot more triaging due to injuries than I am sure they would want. Head is their latest play. Head certainly has some impressive stats, and I hope he does well. Goedert may be next or maybe not.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:42 am

Any of you good Clipper followers know what has happened to Thomas Neal? I thought he had a minor injury a couple of weeks ago that was day to day but the way things are going with injuries, minor injuries can be long term without playing. :dunno:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 am

With Laporta being sent out to Cbus, I have to wonder if Hafner gets moved to the 60 day DL and the 40 man spot gets taken by Paul Phillips or Luke Carlin (called up to be a 3rd catcher in Cleveland) and Chun Chen gets moved up to Cbus for the post-season run.

It would allow Chen to keep playing, it gives Cleveland another catcher to pair with Marson as they go with Santana at 1B.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:53 am

MadThinker88 wrote:With Laporta being sent out to Cbus, I have to wonder if Hafner gets moved to the 60 day DL and the 40 man spot gets taken by Paul Phillips or Luke Carlin (called up to be a 3rd catcher in Cleveland) and Chun Chen gets moved up to Cbus for the post-season run.

It would allow Chen to keep playing, it gives Cleveland another catcher to pair with Marson as they go with Santana at 1B.


I think it is a given that the Indians will add a 3rd catcher for September. Just about every team/every year adds the 3rd catcher. Even if they don't see any action, the 3rd catcher is an insurance policy.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:41 am

Congratulations to Mike Sarbaugh! He looks like the real deal to me and I hope he gets his chance to manage the Indians next year. Most of our players that have come up thru the organizational ranks have played for him and performed well, especially offensively.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:54 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations to Mike Sarbaugh! He looks like the real deal to me and I hope he gets his chance to manage the Indians next year. Most of our players that have come up thru the organizational ranks have played for him and performed well, especially offensively.


Best manager/coach I have come across in the past decade in the Indians system. I would be very surprised if he is not added to Manny Acta's staff this offseason.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Troybuildfitess » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:34 am

artgold wrote:
artgold wrote:Espino's three outings since promoted back to Columbus, 15.1 innings pitched, 6 hits, 3 walks, 3 earned runs and 14 strikeouts.


Espino adds 4 more innings, giving up 1 hit, 0 walks, 0 earned runs and 6 strikeouts.

For those keeping track at home, that now means in his last four outings since promoted back to Columbus he has gone 19.1 innings pitched, 7 hits, 3 walks, 3 earned runs and 20 strikeouts.

Just thought I'd stay consistent here...


I would like too see Espino take Durbins role next year!
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:45 am

daingean wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:With Laporta being sent out to Cbus, I have to wonder if Hafner gets moved to the 60 day DL and the 40 man spot gets taken by Paul Phillips or Luke Carlin (called up to be a 3rd catcher in Cleveland) and Chun Chen gets moved up to Cbus for the post-season run.

It would allow Chen to keep playing, it gives Cleveland another catcher to pair with Marson as they go with Santana at 1B.


I think it is a given that the Indians will add a 3rd catcher for September. Just about every team/every year adds the 3rd catcher. Even if they don't see any action, the 3rd catcher is an insurance policy.


I agree, many teams add a 3rd catcher but this team doesn't have a 3rd catcher on its 40 man roster.
It will be interesting to see how they go about making that move (for a 3rd catcher).
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:09 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations to Mike Sarbaugh! He looks like the real deal to me and I hope he gets his chance to manage the Indians next year. Most of our players that have come up thru the organizational ranks have played for him and performed well, especially offensively.


Best manager/coach I have come across in the past decade in the Indians system. I would be very surprised if he is not added to Manny Acta's staff this offseason.


I hope he's added to the coaching staff as well and it makes a lot of sense. Would not mind seeing a new body coaching 3rd base next year...

No way should Sarbaugh manage in the bigs next year though. Must coach at the level first before taking over as a big league manager.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:18 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations to Mike Sarbaugh! He looks like the real deal to me and I hope he gets his chance to manage the Indians next year. Most of our players that have come up thru the organizational ranks have played for him and performed well, especially offensively.


Best manager/coach I have come across in the past decade in the Indians system. I would be very surprised if he is not added to Manny Acta's staff this offseason.


I hope he's added to the coaching staff as well and it makes a lot of sense. Would not mind seeing a new body coaching 3rd base next year...

No way should Sarbaugh manage in the bigs next year though. Must coach at the level first before taking over as a big league manager.


+1 :s_thumbsup
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:12 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I agree, many teams add a 3rd catcher but this team doesn't have a 3rd catcher on its 40 man roster. It will be interesting to see how they go about making that move (for a 3rd catcher).


Not exactly sure the Indians will callup a 3rd catcher. As noted, one is not on the 40-man. I mean, last year they didn't add a 3rd catcher until the last 8-10 days of the season when Carlin was added after Columbus won the title and finished up play in the playoffs.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:15 pm

Color me surprised by the callups. Would have expected Judy to be included instead of Kluber. Not sure if this means that Kluber will be looked at as a reliever but that seems reasonable. Anyone heard who the replacements from Akron are? Seems like Stowell and DeLa are the most likely but suppose it depends on needs for starter.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:23 pm

Judy's still not quite 10 days removed from being sent down. So, with the Choo DL move, it was a choice of whether you call up Hagadone or Judy - you couldn't have gone for both.

With Judy's 10 days up in the next day or two, we may see him as well soon enough.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:42 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Judy's still not quite 10 days removed from being sent down. So, with the Choo DL move, it was a choice of whether you call up Hagadone or Judy - you couldn't have gone for both.

With Judy's 10 days up in the next day or two, we may see him as well soon enough.

Thanks daz. Remembered hagadone's short stay but forgot Judy had a few days ion Cleveland as well. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby tribefollower » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:43 am

Hermie13 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations to Mike Sarbaugh! He looks like the real deal to me and I hope he gets his chance to manage the Indians next year. Most of our players that have come up thru the organizational ranks have played for him and performed well, especially offensively.


Best manager/coach I have come across in the past decade in the Indians system. I would be very surprised if he is not added to Manny Acta's staff this offseason.


I hope he's added to the coaching staff as well and it makes a lot of sense. Would not mind seeing a new body coaching 3rd base next year...

No way should Sarbaugh manage in the bigs next year though. Must coach at the level first before taking over as a big league manager.


Kudos to Sarbaugh! He has put together some solid seasons, and even as players have moved up or just moved, he has found ways to win. He has also done well with individual player development. Players seem to respond well to him. Not sure he will manage in the bigs next year either, but stranger things have happened.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby nubballguy » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:16 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Color me surprised by the callups. Would have expected Judy to be included instead of Kluber. Not sure if this means that Kluber will be looked at as a reliever but that seems reasonable. Anyone heard who the replacements from Akron are? Seems like Stowell and DeLa are the most likely but suppose it depends on needs for starter.


Anyone heard what the moves have been throughout the org in the wake of the Hagadone and Kluber vacancies?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Troybuildfitess » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. A Repeat year in AAA with better numbers is no suprise. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:43 pm

Troybuildfitess wrote:Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:


Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect? :search:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:36 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Troybuildfitess wrote:Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:


Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect? :search:

He must listen to a different NY sportstalk than we do in our household. Most NY fans are truly pissed about giving up McAllister for Kearns, especially with the state of Yankee pitching. But you are right 028, most Yankee fans just want to buy another big arm off the FA market than develop their own. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:01 pm

...Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect?...
Surprisingly (not really), Yankee fans are more about telling the acquiring team about how they bent another team over a chair and Kobe'ized them in a deal..(eg. Curtis Granderson for Ajax and Coke..) Only when the acquiring team DOES get the upper hand in a trade, then that guy is:

1. Useless
2. Hasn't & won't win a ring
3. Easily replaced with X-Player, so he was unneeded.
4. Any combination of the above.

The tendering of this kind of opinion is why NYY fans have earned their "obnoxious" title.. they wear it proudly, btw.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:03 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
Troybuildfitess wrote:Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:


Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect? :search:

He must listen to a different NY sportstalk than we do in our household. Most NY fans are truly pissed about giving up McAllister for Kearns, especially with the state of Yankee pitching. But you are right 028, most Yankee fans just want to buy another big arm off the FA market than develop their own. :pleasantry:


Hadn't really thought about that. You would never expect any team, even the Yanks to be where they are with both Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon in the rotation, AJ Burnett not having a good season what so ever, Phil Hughes having a terrible season with injuries and no velocity. Ivan Nova has some solid all around numbers, but in no way should he have a 15-4 record.

I would go as far to say that McAllister would have started a handful more games with the Yanks this season than he has with the Indians this year. Thats not to say that he would have performed better there than he did with the Indians, but he certainly would have eased the loss of Hughes, even for a few starts. The idea that any team would surrender a big, young, durable pitcher that could develop into a solid all around innings eater at the ML level for a bat to shore up their bench is just nuts.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:05 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Yankee fans are more about telling the acquiring team about how they bent another team over a chair and Kobe'ized them in a deal


:clapping: :rofl:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby tribefollower » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:04 am

Another great offensive display by the Clippers!

Three HRs right out of the gate! And 15 hits. Not too shabby.

One note on last week's player of the week Jared Goedert. Not only did he have a great week, he owns the highest batting average in AAA IL since the all-star break (.345) and by a sizable margin, and over the same period, he is second in AAA IL in HRs (11), adding another one tonight.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby jellis » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:50 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
Troybuildfitess wrote:Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:


Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect? :search:

He must listen to a different NY sportstalk than we do in our household. Most NY fans are truly pissed about giving up McAllister for Kearns, especially with the state of Yankee pitching. But you are right 028, most Yankee fans just want to buy another big arm off the FA market than develop their own. :pleasantry:



As are everyone I talk to in the city, a few made sure to watch his starts because they always liked him, never heard anything but pissed offness at that deal
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:20 pm

jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
Troybuildfitess wrote:Mccalister is not much of a prospect, his stuff is mediocre accrossed the board. Yankee fans could care less about losing him. His upside is a 5th starter on a non contending team. Why any Tribe fan pays any attention to this guy is beyond me :aggressive:


Are there any Yankees fans out there that care about losing a prospect? :search:

He must listen to a different NY sportstalk than we do in our household. Most NY fans are truly pissed about giving up McAllister for Kearns, especially with the state of Yankee pitching. But you are right 028, most Yankee fans just want to buy another big arm off the FA market than develop their own. :pleasantry:



As are everyone I talk to in the city, a few made sure to watch his starts because they always liked him, never heard anything but pissed offness at that deal

Hey jellis, I seems to recall this is pretty much what the excuses were for getting rid of this years likely CY NL winner, Ian Kennedy. I am not implying that is in the cards for McAllister but they are similar pitchers at a similar age. We should be so lucky that such incredible prospect ignorance will strike again. The Yankees can cover their mistakes with an unlimited ability to spend. Not so much with the Tribe! :good:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby toledobuck » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:44 am

I went to the finale game between Toledo and Columbus yesterday just to see the AAA team one last time this year up in my neck of the woods. The Mudhens were doing a give away for ice cream that kind of turned funny for Valbuena. Every time that Valbuena came up to bat they would announce that a row in the stadium would receive free ice cream if there was a strike out. This only occurred when Valbuena was up to bat. Valbuena struck out 4 straight times and everybody was getting free ice cream. I think the Mudhens really liked Valbuena's inefficiency. I just found it funny that they seemed to zero in on Valbuena and he kept serving up K's.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:44 am

toledobuck wrote:I went to the finale game between Toledo and Columbus yesterday just to see the AAA team one last time this year up in my neck of the woods. The Mudhens were doing a give away for ice cream that kind of turned funny for Valbuena. Every time that Valbuena came up to bat they would announce that a row in the stadium would receive free ice cream if there was a strike out. This only occurred when Valbuena was up to bat. Valbuena struck out 4 straight times and everybody was getting free ice cream. I think the Mudhens really liked Valbuena's inefficiency. I just found it funny that they seemed to zero in on Valbuena and he kept serving up K's.


Hmm.. funny strange?.. or funny humorous?..

I prefer to believe that Little Luis knew what he could do against the Mudhen's pitchers and decided he could strike out thereby achieving the best results he could: make this Tiger's affiliate PAY !!...

(there is always a silver lining.. if you look hard enough..) :yahoo:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:51 pm

I prefer to believe that Little Luis knew what he could do against the Mudhen's pitchers and decided he could strike out thereby achieving the best results he could: make this Tiger's affiliate PAY !!...


You don't suppose somebody told him there was a free ice cream thing going on when he was in Cleveland, do you?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:28 pm

Hey Art, do you think Ian Kennedy is a good comp for ZMac?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:11 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
I prefer to believe that Little Luis knew what he could do against the Mudhen's pitchers and decided he could strike out thereby achieving the best results he could: make this Tiger's affiliate PAY !!...


You don't suppose somebody told him there was a free ice cream thing going on when he was in Cleveland, do you?

LOL...
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby artgold » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:55 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Hey Art, do you think Ian Kennedy is a good comp for ZMac?


You see some statistical similarities, but some significant differences too.

Kennedy had a much higher strikeout rate than McAllister in the minors, and retained it as he rapidly progressed up the ladder. McAllister has a bit of an inconsistent performance there, but this past season his rate has increased a bit. Also, if you look at WHIP, again Kennedy did much better than McAllister, and retained his ability as he advanced.

Overall, there are some similarities, and if you toss out McAllister's awful 2010 season they compare a bit closer. If McAllister had maintained an ERA of under 3.00 in Columbus this season, and had given up somewhere in the range of 135-140 hits in his innings pitched, I could see more of a similarity between the two.

I think that McAllister has a couple of significant development positives though, first off is the fact that he had a terrific BB/K rate at Columbus this year, he reverted to his lower HR allowed rate he previously demonstrated, and a very high percentage of his starts were Quality Starts.

Overall, I can see him being a decent major league pitcher, but I have difficulty seeing him put up the IP/H and WHIP rates that Kennedy puts up (including last year). I have run some preliminary statistical projection comps, and so far what I'm coming up with is guys like Mark Clark, Jon Lieber, Kevin Tapani and (a very top end comp) Shane Reynolds.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:44 pm

Maybe I missed something... where is LaPorta?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:11 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Maybe I missed something... where is LaPorta?


In Cleveland....his wife gave birth to their daughter a few days ago, which is why LaPorta has not been with Columbus. There is a chance he may just return to the Indians once his 10 day minor league assignment is up, or he could rejoin with Columbus on Friday when the team returns home to Huntington Park to continue their series.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:58 am

artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Hey Art, do you think Ian Kennedy is a good comp for ZMac?


You see some statistical similarities, but some significant differences too.

Kennedy had a much higher strikeout rate than McAllister in the minors, and retained it as he rapidly progressed up the ladder. McAllister has a bit of an inconsistent performance there, but this past season his rate has increased a bit. Also, if you look at WHIP, again Kennedy did much better than McAllister, and retained his ability as he advanced.

Overall, there are some similarities, and if you toss out McAllister's awful 2010 season they compare a bit closer. If McAllister had maintained an ERA of under 3.00 in Columbus this season, and had given up somewhere in the range of 135-140 hits in his innings pitched, I could see more of a similarity between the two.

I think that McAllister has a couple of significant development positives though, first off is the fact that he had a terrific BB/K rate at Columbus this year, he reverted to his lower HR allowed rate he previously demonstrated, and a very high percentage of his starts were Quality Starts.

Overall, I can see him being a decent major league pitcher, but I have difficulty seeing him put up the IP/H and WHIP rates that Kennedy puts up (including last year). I have run some preliminary statistical projection comps, and so far what I'm coming up with is guys like Mark Clark, Jon Lieber, Kevin Tapani and (a very top end comp) Shane Reynolds.

Sounds to me like we are talking about a "fringe" MOR that eats innings if I get the consensus pf your comps. Guess I can live with that for a 2 mo. Rental. Do u think he will be challenging Tomlin in another year? I like his fastball but his secondary pitch command has a ways to go to match tomlin IMO. Hope your power is b etter in the north than here. Ugllyday in SD!
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:52 am

TonyIPI wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Maybe I missed something... where is LaPorta?


In Cleveland....his wife gave birth to their daughter a few days ago, which is why LaPorta has not been with Columbus. There is a chance he may just return to the Indians once his 10 day minor league assignment is up, or he could rejoin with Columbus on Friday when the team returns home to Huntington Park to continue their series.
There was a report (ABJ?) that said LaPorta would be in Chicago for Friday night's game. The story further implied that as Friday is the first day Matt Laporta is permitted to rejoin the club, the Indians are making a "show" of Matt being back with the club after being sent to the minors to make room for JeanMar, only...

<shrugs>...
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:03 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Hey Art, do you think Ian Kennedy is a good comp for ZMac?


You see some statistical similarities, but some significant differences too.

Kennedy had a much higher strikeout rate than McAllister in the minors, and retained it as he rapidly progressed up the ladder. McAllister has a bit of an inconsistent performance there, but this past season his rate has increased a bit. Also, if you look at WHIP, again Kennedy did much better than McAllister, and retained his ability as he advanced.

Overall, there are some similarities, and if you toss out McAllister's awful 2010 season they compare a bit closer. If McAllister had maintained an ERA of under 3.00 in Columbus this season, and had given up somewhere in the range of 135-140 hits in his innings pitched, I could see more of a similarity between the two.

I think that McAllister has a couple of significant development positives though, first off is the fact that he had a terrific BB/K rate at Columbus this year, he reverted to his lower HR allowed rate he previously demonstrated, and a very high percentage of his starts were Quality Starts.

Overall, I can see him being a decent major league pitcher, but I have difficulty seeing him put up the IP/H and WHIP rates that Kennedy puts up (including last year). I have run some preliminary statistical projection comps, and so far what I'm coming up with is guys like Mark Clark, Jon Lieber, Kevin Tapani and (a very top end comp) Shane Reynolds.

Sounds to me like we are talking about a "fringe" MOR that eats innings if I get the consensus pf your comps. Guess I can live with that for a 2 mo. Rental. Do u think he will be challenging Tomlin in another year? I like his fastball but his secondary pitch command has a ways to go to match tomlin IMO. Hope your power is b etter in the north than here. Ugllyday in SD!
No doubt about it, a two month rental of a diminishing skills OF'er for a MOR/BOR innigs eater was a brilliant trade. Now, back to the comp for Z-Mac..

When you look at "comping" a player.. statistical similarities always have their place. The tendency and nuance statistics, especially (GO/AO, GB/FB, LD, SIERA, etc).. can be more indicative of similarities or comps than what could be/should be called fundamental stats (ERA, WHIP, BB/9, SO/9, etc.)

Collectively, you can make comparisons fit or not fit any player. Physical similarities as well as pitching approach should come into play when describing a player "comp". i.e. you would be inclined to comp Tim Lincecum with Johan Santana as both are fastball/change up artists and both are physically smaller power pitchers, both are multiple cy young award winners, etc.

There is also what could be referred as the 'eye' comp:

eg: When you watch Asdrubal Cabrera play SS, his range isn't the greatest.. and probably never will be, but game day speed says he gets to more batted balls than his range should allow. If that just "seems" to be the case or is actually the case, it doesn't matter. Asdrubal is getting to more GB's than ever. The same thing can be said with Asdrubal's power output for this season. He has the swing and mechanics to drive the ball. It had never shown up in the statistics, but it was clear to see, he was due for a power outbreak this season.

With that said, a relative comparison or comp for Zach McAllister that seems to make a lot of sense may be Carl Pavano. They are physically similar. They both approach pitching as "tall and fall" pitchers. Neither pitcher has a devastating fastball, yet both get have a 'good', not great K/9 rate, They both have a tendency to keep the ball in the yard for the fly balls they surrender, and both get a lot of ground balls. While Z-mac hasn't achieved the success that Pavano has at the ML level, their physicial similarities, style and approach are consistent with each other. Their basic stats also compare well when you look at their career tracks. They are pretty similar in many ways, with some minor separations or differences.

What say you?
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby artgold » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:27 am

Inky, I think it is possible that McAllister will challenge Tomlin for a rotation spot in another year. I am curious to see what Tomlin does based on how this past season evolved, he clearly was struggling more as the season wore on. However, he had a really bad period from late May through mid-June, and then righted himself and came on strong for a month before falling back again.

So, I'm not sure how he will be going forward, his ability to adjust to adversity has been repeatedly demonstrated, yet his performance clearly deteriorated as the season wore on. He can go either way here, either figuring it out and becoming a more consistent version of the "good" Tomlin, or kind of wear out and become a more frequent version of the "bad" Tomlin. I have absolutely no idea which way he will end up (injuries may play into this too, not sure how durable he will be over multiple 200 inning seasons).

So, I think McAllister could challenge if we end up seeing more of the "bad" Tomlin during 2012.

Geronomo, I doubt very much that McAllister will be anything at all like Carl Pavano. I don't really evaluate pitching styles, in terms of things such as their arm angles, release points or follow throughs. However, I've found that over a very long time (multiple decades) some of the minor league stats stuff holds up fairly well when estimating major league abilities. Pitching is always more difficult to project than hitting, but there are some trends. In the stuff I look at, McAllister doesn't really match up well with Pavano at all.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:11 pm

artgold wrote:Geronomo, I doubt very much that McAllister will be anything at all like Carl Pavano. I don't really evaluate pitching styles, in terms of things such as their arm angles, release points or follow throughs. However, I've found that over a very long time (multiple decades) some of the minor league stats stuff holds up fairly well when estimating major league abilities. Pitching is always more difficult to project than hitting, but there are some trends. In the stuff I look at, McAllister doesn't really match up well with Pavano at all.


I went through the drill of comparing minor league stats as a reference for no other reason to see if what my eyes saw were the same as what the stats said.. While it was a 'different era' for SP's, as Pavano is significantly older, but the numbers are not far off:

.....Rec..... W%... ERA...... IP......H...... R..... ER..... HR....BB....SO....WHIP.... BB/9... SO/9.... SO/BB

... 47-27... .635...3.04. . 689.2. 602... 276... 233.....54....167...602.. ..1.115.. ..2.2.... 7.9...... 3.60

... 51-37... .580.. 3.47.... 682.1.. 686.. 303... 263.... 49... 170.. 541... 1.254.... 2.2... 7.1...... 3.18


Note: 47-27 line is Pavano's stats.. 52-37 is McAllister's stats...
:s_dunno
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby artgold » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:26 pm

Look at Pavano's 1996 and 1997 seasons in AA and AAA, and his age when he accomplished those performances.

And it isn't just "the numbers", it is also (among a lot of other things) the age at each level and momentum from year to year.
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:44 pm

Beside Pavanos numbers look a lot better IMO - for young pitchers how many hits they give up is HUGE indicator for future success. That number is gonna go up when you reach the majors and when you already are close to the hit an inning mark - it usually doesn't bode well
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:00 pm

While the numbers have similarities, there are also noted differences.. The comp may not be exact.. but it is a comp that seems to have at least some validity.. things that stood out.. included:

-Minor League Runs versus Minor League Earned runs.. both Pavano and McAllister are essentially ground ball pitchers. In the minors, where the defense isn't quite as good, both pitchers had approximately 14 % of their runs allowed at unearned.

-Both Pavano and McAllister kept the ball in the yard.. allowing 2/3rds of a homer per nine innings pitched...

-Both Pavano and McAllister had similar walks/9 IP, K's/9 IP and K's/BB along the same minor league career time line or path...

There just seemed to be a lot more similarities than differences. When you factor in their pitching style and physical similarities..the comp makes some sense..Will Zach McAllister become another Carl Pavano?. IDK.. no one does at this point.. When Pavano is healthy.. he's a middle of the rotation to back of the rotation innings eater.. not a staff ace.. not a Cy Young Award winner or candidate. He's a just a good solid SP. If Zach McAllister follows that path..I'd be more than satisfied.. :dunno:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:52 pm

Congrats to the Clippers on the sweep !! They are moving onto the Governors Cup finals..It looks like it could be the Iron Pigs who have a 1-0 lead on the PawSox heading into tonights game two. While that series hasn't been decided yet, the Clippers will be rested and ready for the championship round... :drinks:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby Upper Box Woodchuck » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:51 pm

Congrats on the Governors Cup repeat! :yahoo:

Now to that last piece of business in Albuquerque on Tuesday...
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:38 pm

David Huff seemed to use last year's work in AAA & start in the final game as a springboard for this season.
It will be interesting to see if this year's starter will be able to do the same with next year.

Go Clippers, bring another title back for Ohio. :good:
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Re: 2011 Columbus Clippers Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:10 pm

artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Hey Art, do you think Ian Kennedy is a good comp for ZMac?


You see some statistical similarities, but some significant differences too.

Kennedy had a much higher strikeout rate than McAllister in the minors, and retained it as he rapidly progressed up the ladder. McAllister has a bit of an inconsistent performance there, but this past season his rate has increased a bit. Also, if you look at WHIP, again Kennedy did much better than McAllister, and retained his ability as he advanced.

Overall, there are some similarities, and if you toss out McAllister's awful 2010 season they compare a bit closer. If McAllister had maintained an ERA of under 3.00 in Columbus this season, and had given up somewhere in the range of 135-140 hits in his innings pitched, I could see more of a similarity between the two.

I think that McAllister has a couple of significant development positives though, first off is the fact that he had a terrific BB/K rate at Columbus this year, he reverted to his lower HR allowed rate he previously demonstrated, and a very high percentage of his starts were Quality Starts.

Overall, I can see him being a decent major league pitcher, but I have difficulty seeing him put up the IP/H and WHIP rates that Kennedy puts up (including last year). I have run some preliminary statistical projection comps, and so far what I'm coming up with is guys like Mark Clark, Jon Lieber, Kevin Tapani and (a very top end comp) Shane Reynolds.

I have looked over your comps and agree they are better than Ian Kennedy. But that is why I asked. I do think he would have to be fortunate indeed to reach Shane Reynolds and I have a tough time with John Lieber because of the wide difference in pitching styles. Both Clark and Tapani have fairly similar styles to McAllister from what I recall so both work for me. My Brother says Jake Westbrook is his choice but I think he is a better comp to Jeanmar Gomez because of the similar sinking fastball approach even though Gomez is in the MLs a bit earlier than Westbrook. I am not sure you would agree at all since I am a greater believer in FIP than you and would guess you would find more differences. any thoughts? :pleasantry:
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