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Sabathia & Lee Trades

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Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby fallclassic » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:00 pm

At what point do we declare these two trades COMPLETE busts? There is not one single difference maker from either of these deals on the 40 man. I do like the Brantley addition, and hope Knapp can somehow recover and salvage these monstrosities done by Mark Shapiro.

P.S. I hope we're not saying the same about the Jimenez deal in two years!!!!!
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby 3ProspectsAndaPTBNL » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:42 pm

fallclassic wrote:At what point do we declare these two trades COMPLETE busts? There is not one single difference maker from either of these deals on the 40 man. I do like the Brantley addition, and hope Knapp can somehow recover and salvage these monstrosities done by Mark Shapiro.

P.S. I hope we're not saying the same about the Jimenez deal in two years!!!!!


We definately wouldn't call the trades a bust right now. Carrasco has a very nice arsenal of pitches and still young at age 24. Hopefully Brantley can continue to progress in 2012. There still some young talent from those traded in the minors.

I'm not saying Shapiro is a great GM, but his "monstrositie" trades are the reason we have contended in 2011. For example....Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal, Mark DeRosa for Chris Perez, Casey Blake for Carlos Santana, Victor Martinez for Justin Masterson, etc.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:17 pm

fallclassic wrote:At what point do we declare these two trades COMPLETE busts? There is not one single difference maker from either of these deals on the 40 man. I do like the Brantley addition, and hope Knapp can somehow recover and salvage these monstrosities done by Mark Shapiro.

P.S. I hope we're not saying the same about the Jimenez deal in two years!!!!!


What's the rush in proclaiming these trades as busts?

Ego ?

Stupidity ?

Aping the local media ?

What is gained by proclaiming these trades as 'busts'?

You get to say I told you so ?

Something more inane ? (if that's possible?)

As far as what you're saying, be that in two years or two weeks or two hours, your basis for the comment is a knee jerk reaction to what is considered a normal progression of a player's development.. The Matt LaPorta demotion is part of that.. Sadly, you're too too busy succeeding at being an IDIOT to understand the nuance that is required to be a professional baseball player.. what a shock...
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:01 pm

Question: What did you feel about the Bartolo Colon trade in August of 2004, a little over two years after the June 2002 trade?

That's the same time period since the Lee trade. At that time in 2004 the Indians had banished Brandon Phillips to the minors and all of Cleveland had given up on him, Lee was having an okay rookie year but was getting pounded after the All Star break, and Grady Sizemore was in Akron.

In other words, it is WAY to early to grade out the Lee trade. Though, it is looking promising. A bonafide defensive ML catcher, a mid-rotation starter, and a utility guy is not THAT bad.

As for the Sabathia trade....well....that one doesn't look good right now. Though, I'm not sure what more you could get for a guy three months from FA.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:49 am

TonyIPI wrote:Question: What did you feel about the Bartolo Colon trade in August of 2004, a little over two years after the June 2002 trade?

That's the same time period since the Lee trade. At that time in 2004 the Indians had banished Brandon Phillips to the minors and all of Cleveland had given up on him, Lee was having an okay rookie year but was getting pounded after the All Star break, and Grady Sizemore was in Akron.

In other words, it is WAY to early to grade out the Lee trade. Though, it is looking promising. A bonafide defensive ML catcher, a mid-rotation starter, and a utility guy is not THAT bad.

As for the Sabathia trade....well....that one doesn't look good right now. Though, I'm not sure what more you could get for a guy three months from FA.


Also note that Milwakee didn't get a 1st round pick for Sabathia from the Yankees because the Yankees also signed Texiera. Milwakee's guys were:

Kentrail Davis (Brewers-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent CC Sabathia
Max Walla (Brewers-2) - Pick from NYA as compensation for Free Agent CC Sabathia

Davis is hitting .245 .318 .358 .759 in his 2nd year at A+
Walla is hitting: .296 .386 .434 .820 still in Rookie ball

Not that the Indians would have drafted the same guys.

Yes the Indians could have gotten a better package it really is a bit premature to give it a failure.

Now the Lee trade, I've said all along that the Knapp injury which had really manifested itself prior to the trade was a problem. He has pitched all of 40 innings since the trade. I hope he comes back but I am not very optimistic there. Although Carrasco, Donald, and Marson have added value to this team and I do think Carrasco could turn into a very solid pitcher when he matures a little more.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:23 am

The CC Sabathia trade: In a nutshell was CC pitching two and half months plus four games in October along with a supplemental sandwich draft pick and a second round draft pick for LaPorta, Z-Jax, Bryson and Brantley.

Comparing the four prospects against what CC Sabathia is and was is disingenuous. There was ZERO chance CC was coming back. Two and a half month rentals don't bring Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder.. They bring prospects..

Can/should the prospects that were returned for CC have been more impactful? Sure, but in baseball there are no crystal balls that predict a prospects future impact.. The alternative was the Indians would get two guys that had never played professional baseball..ever..
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Complaining about trades in hind-sight is such a waste of time. If they didn't trade CC, they would have lost him for a draft pick, period. Draft picks are just a crap shoot. All you can do is trust in your talent evaluators, which is also a crap-shoot.You make trades based on your plan and philosophy with your franchise.

At the time of the CC trade, Laporta was the highest rated prospect in the Brewers system. BTW, he still might turn out to be a fine player, (see Alex Gordon).
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:45 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Complaining about trades in hind-sight is such a waste of time. If they didn't trade CC, they would have lost him for a draft pick, period. Draft picks are just a crap shoot. All you can do is trust in your talent evaluators, which is also a crap-shoot.You make trades based on your plan and philosophy with your franchise.

At the time of the CC trade, Laporta was the highest rated prospect in the Brewers system. BTW, he still might turn out to be a fine player, (see Alex Gordon).


+1
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby jellis » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:32 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Complaining about trades in hind-sight is such a waste of time. If they didn't trade CC, they would have lost him for a draft pick, period. Draft picks are just a crap shoot. All you can do is trust in your talent evaluators, which is also a crap-shoot.You make trades based on your plan and philosophy with your franchise.

At the time of the CC trade, Laporta was the highest rated prospect in the Brewers system. BTW, he still might turn out to be a fine player, (see Alex Gordon).



plus the draft pick would have been a 2nd, not a first. We got useable OF, a reliever who should be good, and a a player in Laporta who has talent
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:00 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Complaining about trades in hind-sight is such a waste of time. If they didn't trade CC, they would have lost him for a draft pick, period. Draft picks are just a crap shoot. All you can do is trust in your talent evaluators, which is also a crap-shoot.You make trades based on your plan and philosophy with your franchise.

At the time of the CC trade, Laporta was the highest rated prospect in the Brewers system. BTW, he still might turn out to be a fine player, (see Alex Gordon).


+1

+2. Not sure I have heard this particular criticism since Voldemort left the site. There are only 240 ML starting position players and the Indians got two from CC alone. No all stars but functional players. LaPorta may be a disappointment but hardly useless and the biggest knock on Brantley and Bryson IMO is they appear injury prone. If this is his idea of a bad trade, then the three MLs they got for Lee will be meaningless to him. :fool:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby fallclassic » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:45 pm

The Tribe got more value (core players) trading bums than they did TWO Cy Young pitchers and that's not the least bit disturbing. To each their own, I guess.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:44 pm

CC Sabathia - at the time looked like a really good trade. Basically because a guy named Matt LaPorta was the center piece...He definitely hasn't lived up to expectations yet, and has to be a ? going forward. I like Brantley (the Indian picked PTBNL) and anticipate a stronger season next year from him. Bryson looks like he could have a role in a bullpen/trade. Jackson.... It is a busty trade (right now) but LaPorta prolly gets one more crack next year..And hey I thought this was an excellent trade when it happened.

Cliff Lee - Still way to early to call. Marson might end up the best, but if Donald can stay healthy for awhile could be an excellent utility/platoon type guy. Carrasco is a roller coaster. Fairly inexperinced and young so I give him a pass, has a shorter leash next year though. Knapp, I just want him to throw again. I thought this trade was kind of weak at the time, and really thought Dominic Brown needed to be a piece and....Well - the trade looks ok, need a stable/good year from Carlos next season though.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:25 am

A bonafide defensive ML catcher, a mid-rotation starter, and a utility guy is not THAT bad.


Its pretty bad when you consider it was for the best pitcher in baseball and they gave him up a year early. Still it was 10x better than the Sabathia trade.

CC Sabathia - at the time looked like a really good trade. Basically because a guy named Matt LaPorta was the center piece


Not true at all. I remember Keith Law coming on a Cleveland radio station a couple days after the trade saying how bad LaPorta was and that he was drastically falling in scouts eyes. He was shocked the Indians wanted him. Im not even sure he thought he would be this bad though
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby nubballguy » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:19 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
A bonafide defensive ML catcher, a mid-rotation starter, and a utility guy is not THAT bad.


Its pretty bad when you consider it was for the best pitcher in baseball and they gave him up a year early. Still it was 10x better than the Sabathia trade.

CC Sabathia - at the time looked like a really good trade. Basically because a guy named Matt LaPorta was the center piece


Not true at all. I remember Keith Law coming on a Cleveland radio station a couple days after the trade saying how bad LaPorta was and that he was drastically falling in scouts eyes. He was shocked the Indians wanted him. Im not even sure he thought he would be this bad though


Matt LaPorta, IMHO, given a full season, relatively healthy, in say 600 to 660 at bats, is a .250 avg, 25 2s, 20 hr, 70 rbi guy. Is that great? No. Is it terrible? No, not really if that's the baseline. If he were to outperform and hit say .270 with 25 hr, 80 rbi, and maybe 30 dbls while playing a decent 1st base, I don't think that would be that bad.

I respect that a manager has to be the one to make the call based on what he sees or feels as well as other team dynamics such as the deficiencies of Santana behind the plate and the view of Marson/Santana is better than Santana/LaPorta, but I think injuries (and inconsistencies) as well as circumstances (the team's surprising and unexpected contention this season which put 'development' on the back burner to contention) held LaPorta back, and not just this season, at least as far as injuries are concerned. In other words, he lacked some of the opportunity to get on a roll, a streak, in a groove, like Santana has seemingly done or Choo was doing prior to his recent injury. If he went on a roll and finished up the season with the #s above, I don't think there would be as much frustration amongst fans. Look at Hanahan, given up for dead offensively, now he's the toast of the town while he rides this hot streak. LaPorta could have done the same.

In a lot of ways, I think LaPorta is the new Casey Blake or Jhonny Peralta- a guy who isn't really that bad, just that he upsets fans because he's not as good as they want him to be. I still think he deserves another chance to "get it" next season but a lot of factors will play into that, particularly Santana. It may be that that opportunity has closed and I wouldn't be too surprised to see him packaged in a deal if a team came calling quite frankly. Hopefully, in one way or another he can be of value to the team.

Hey, I'm Italian, had to speak up for "The Door." :biggrin:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:22 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
A bonafide defensive ML catcher, a mid-rotation starter, and a utility guy is not THAT bad.


Its pretty bad when you consider it was for the best pitcher in baseball and they gave him up a year early. Still it was 10x better than the Sabathia trade.


Cliff Lee was NOT the best pitcher in baseball when we dealt him though. Not even close.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:50 pm

fallclassic wrote:The Tribe got more value (core players) trading bums than they did TWO Cy Young pitchers and that's not the least bit disturbing. To each their own, I guess.

Are you referring to Victor Martinez and Casey Blake as bums? :reallyshocked:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:24 pm

I have two questions regarding the Cliff Lee deal. Does anyone remember what information the Indians had, if any at all, about Jason Knapp's arm problems before the trade, and does anyone know what other players were made available to the Indians in this deal?

On paper, its hard to argue with the management for accepting a package that included a potential everyday infielder, everyday catcher, a potential FOR starter in Knapp, and a MOR starter in Carrasco, but the only thing I would be willing to question is the FO pulling the trigger on a deal when they knew the centerpiece had arm problems, no matter how serious they seemed at the time. I remember that Brown, Drabek, and Taylor were all off the table at the time, but I would be curious to know if a player like Jarred Cosart was on the table. He was drafted in 08, so he would have been eligible to be traded at some point, even if he had to be included as a PTBNL. At the time, Im sure Cosart wasn't considered to be in the same class as Knapp, but if we had received him in the deal instead, most of us probably wouldn't be so skeptical about this trade.

Its easy to look at a trade a couple years later and say we should have done this or this, but if the FO was aware of even the slightest problem with Knapp's arm, it probably would have been much safer to just make the 4th player in the deal a PTBNL with a list of prospects that included Knapp and other high ceiling prospects.

I dont really remember the specifics at the time of the trade, but if somebody could give me more information that would be great. My personal opinion of this trade will essentially come down to how much information the Indians had on Knapp's injury, and what other prospects may have been on the table in a PTBNL situation.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:59 pm

BrianM wrote:I have two questions regarding the Cliff Lee deal. Does anyone remember what information the Indians had, if any at all, about Jason Knapp's arm problems before the trade, and does anyone know what other players were made available to the Indians in this deal?

On paper, its hard to argue with the management for accepting a package that included a potential everyday infielder, everyday catcher, a potential FOR starter in Knapp, and a MOR starter in Carrasco, but the only thing I would be willing to question is the FO pulling the trigger on a deal when they knew the centerpiece had arm problems, no matter how serious they seemed at the time. I remember that Brown, Drabek, and Taylor were all off the table at the time, but I would be curious to know if a player like Jarred Cosart was on the table. He was drafted in 08, so he would have been eligible to be traded at some point, even if he had to be included as a PTBNL. At the time, Im sure Cosart wasn't considered to be in the same class as Knapp, but if we had received him in the deal instead, most of us probably wouldn't be so skeptical about this trade.

Its easy to look at a trade a couple years later and say we should have done this or this, but if the FO was aware of even the slightest problem with Knapp's arm, it probably would have been much safer to just make the 4th player in the deal a PTBNL with a list of prospects that included Knapp and other high ceiling prospects.

I dont really remember the specifics at the time of the trade, but if somebody could give me more information that would be great. My personal opinion of this trade will essentially come down to how much information the Indians had on Knapp's injury, and what other prospects may have been on the table in a PTBNL situation.


If memory serves,,,th Knappster was throwing, but working his way back from an injury at the time of the trade. But really, who cares? That was 2 arm operations ago. I believe the thought was to get more power arms into the organization like Masterson, Hagadone and Knapp. At the time we had a lot of guys like Sowers and Huff. Taking a flyer on such a young kid is a longshot any way you look at it.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
BrianM wrote:I have two questions regarding the Cliff Lee deal. Does anyone remember what information the Indians had, if any at all, about Jason Knapp's arm problems before the trade, and does anyone know what other players were made available to the Indians in this deal?

On paper, its hard to argue with the management for accepting a package that included a potential everyday infielder, everyday catcher, a potential FOR starter in Knapp, and a MOR starter in Carrasco, but the only thing I would be willing to question is the FO pulling the trigger on a deal when they knew the centerpiece had arm problems, no matter how serious they seemed at the time. I remember that Brown, Drabek, and Taylor were all off the table at the time, but I would be curious to know if a player like Jarred Cosart was on the table. He was drafted in 08, so he would have been eligible to be traded at some point, even if he had to be included as a PTBNL. At the time, Im sure Cosart wasn't considered to be in the same class as Knapp, but if we had received him in the deal instead, most of us probably wouldn't be so skeptical about this trade.

Its easy to look at a trade a couple years later and say we should have done this or this, but if the FO was aware of even the slightest problem with Knapp's arm, it probably would have been much safer to just make the 4th player in the deal a PTBNL with a list of prospects that included Knapp and other high ceiling prospects.

I dont really remember the specifics at the time of the trade, but if somebody could give me more information that would be great. My personal opinion of this trade will essentially come down to how much information the Indians had on Knapp's injury, and what other prospects may have been on the table in a PTBNL situation.


If memory serves,,,th Knappster was throwing, but working his way back from an injury at the time of the trade. But really, who cares? That was 2 arm operations ago. I believe the thought was to get more power arms into the organization like Masterson, Hagadone and Knapp. At the time we had a lot of guys like Sowers and Huff. Taking a flyer on such a young kid is a longshot any way you look at it.

FWIW, I seem to recall that he was returning from a short stint on the rehab for some sholder soreness and was pitching 2-3 inning relief stints. At the time, he was throwing in the upper 90s and gave little, if any, indication of problems to come. But when you get young pitching, you always consider the adage that young, high octane pitchers are always going to get hurt sometime. Just look at the big arms the Indians have had the past few years and they have all gotten injured. Of the "latin trio", the one with the least problems, Gomez, had the lowest ceiling of the three. But a guy like Tomlin skates thru uninjured until recently. It just happens. :pleasantry:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:46 pm

I'm still a believer in Carlos Carrasco, though my optimism for this year may have been a season early.

He's given us 18 quality starts the past 2 seasons in 28 starts. That's comparable to what Tomlin gave us this year(17/27) and not too far off of Masterson's year so far (21/28). Like Tomlin, Carrasco gives up too many HRs, but I think he has the better chance to improve in that area. I still like his K potential, though my prediction of him bettering Masterson in Ks this year was obviously wrong.

C.C. had a stretch of 5 games in June where he was dominant, giving up only 4 ER and 22 hits in 36.2 innings...and 3 of those runs came on solo homers. When he's on, he's can be as good as any pitcher we have. Perhaps next season he can become more consistent and step his game up to another level the way Masterson has done. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. He's always had the talent and it's seemed like he's slow to develop, but the guy is still just 24 yrs. old.

We should have a VERY good rotation next season. And I'm not at all disappointed by the trade return we got for Cliff Lee. If Knapp can get healthy and live up to HIS potential, a good trade return for Lee will become a great trade return.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:11 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
BrianM wrote:I have two questions regarding the Cliff Lee deal. Does anyone remember what information the Indians had, if any at all, about Jason Knapp's arm problems before the trade, and does anyone know what other players were made available to the Indians in this deal?

On paper, its hard to argue with the management for accepting a package that included a potential everyday infielder, everyday catcher, a potential FOR starter in Knapp, and a MOR starter in Carrasco, but the only thing I would be willing to question is the FO pulling the trigger on a deal when they knew the centerpiece had arm problems, no matter how serious they seemed at the time. I remember that Brown, Drabek, and Taylor were all off the table at the time, but I would be curious to know if a player like Jarred Cosart was on the table. He was drafted in 08, so he would have been eligible to be traded at some point, even if he had to be included as a PTBNL. At the time, Im sure Cosart wasn't considered to be in the same class as Knapp, but if we had received him in the deal instead, most of us probably wouldn't be so skeptical about this trade.

Its easy to look at a trade a couple years later and say we should have done this or this, but if the FO was aware of even the slightest problem with Knapp's arm, it probably would have been much safer to just make the 4th player in the deal a PTBNL with a list of prospects that included Knapp and other high ceiling prospects.

I dont really remember the specifics at the time of the trade, but if somebody could give me more information that would be great. My personal opinion of this trade will essentially come down to how much information the Indians had on Knapp's injury, and what other prospects may have been on the table in a PTBNL situation.


If memory serves,,,th Knappster was throwing, but working his way back from an injury at the time of the trade. But really, who cares? That was 2 arm operations ago. I believe the thought was to get more power arms into the organization like Masterson, Hagadone and Knapp. At the time we had a lot of guys like Sowers and Huff. Taking a flyer on such a young kid is a longshot any way you look at it.

FWIW, I seem to recall that he was returning from a short stint on the rehab for some sholder soreness and was pitching 2-3 inning relief stints. At the time, he was throwing in the upper 90s and gave little, if any, indication of problems to come. But when you get young pitching, you always consider the adage that young, high octane pitchers are always going to get hurt sometime. Just look at the big arms the Indians have had the past few years and they have all gotten injured. Of the "latin trio", the one with the least problems, Gomez, had the lowest ceiling of the three. But a guy like Tomlin skates thru uninjured until recently. It just happens. :pleasantry:


Thanks for the info so quick fellas. It does seem pointless to dwell on something that can't be changed, but when it comes to evaluating a trade it is important to consider these small details. We have built our team on trades like these and Cliff Lee was probably are most valuable trade chip since Colon, so we shouldnt just be saying "who cares." Its a GM's responsibility to analyze as many possible scenarios in situations like these and find an outcome that will have the most positive effect on the future of the organization. I don't know if acquiring Knapp as a PTBNL around September 1st was even considered or an option, but these are things that Shapiro needed to consider with our team in the condition they were. I would be extremely surprised to find out that the Phillies rejected a scenario like this seeing how they managed to keep all the prospects that they swore they wouldn't trade. If we did set up this trade with the 4th player being a PTBNL, we may have still went with Knapp's upside, but at least we would have had a better opportunity to investigate Knapp's problems and time to scout other high upside prospects. Ive been looking into Cosart a little more since writing the original post, and it seems, even at the time, that he would have been pretty tempting with Knapp's injury concerns. In 7 games with the Phillies rookie club in 2009, he had a 2.22 era and struck out 25 in 22 IP. He was also named to the futures game the following year, so its hard to believe his upside wasn't recognizable at that time.

I don't wanna sound like Im bashing Shapiro because Im actually a huge fan and loved what he has done with his team, but every option needed to be considered when dealing with our most valuable trade chip and a prospect with an injury that the FO was aware of. Jason Knapp may still end up being a nice major league pitcher, but if he fails, I would hate to look back at the trade and think that we could of done something very subtle and plausible to create a better outcome for our team.

Tony, you may be the only one who really has more information about that trade. Do you have any thoughts?
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:08 am

Bryson and Knapp are the two sleepers that could completely change our perception of the CC and Lee trades.

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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:48 am

Regarding the Indians FO's knowledge of any injury issues with Jason Knapp prior to the July 29, 2009 trade of Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco, here is what was known:

Phillie Baseball News: July 16, 2009 :Jason Knapp's impressive season has hit a bump in the road. The 18 year old right-hander was placed on the DL with what's being termed shoulder fatigue.

AOL News: Now when the Indians made the deal (July 29, 2009) they knew Knapp was suffering some tendinitis in his right bicep, and he was actually on the disabled list when they made the deal.

AOL News: When the Cleveland Indians received Jason Knapp from the Philadelphia Phillies as part of the Cliff Lee trade they knew that Knapp was on the minor league disabled list at the time. Still, after going over his medical records with the Phillies, Cleveland wasn't concerned about Knapp's biceps tendinitis. Then they had their own doctors take a look at Knapp a few weeks ago.

What they found were some "loose bodies" in Knapp's throwing shoulder. "Loose bodies" that were already in Knapp's arm when the Indians acquired him from the Phillis, and will now require him to undergo surgery on the shoulder.
Right-hander Jason Knapp, acquired from the Phillies as part of the Cliff Lee trade, will undergo surgery today in New York. Dr. David Altchek will perform an arthroscopic procedure to remove loose bodies from the 19-year-old's right shoulder.

''He's expected to make a full recovery in time for spring training,'' said Tribe head trainer Lonnie Soloff on Monday


Shoulder issues can be more than complex as the success rate for these types of injures are almost always a compromise. That is, something is given up (range of motion, strength, portions of both) to allow the player to return to "baseball activity".

What appears to be the case with this trade: The Indians medical team, didn't have a full understanding of the depth and degree of the injury to Jason Knapp, but went ahead, on their best medical advice at the time, anyway..
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:46 am

Here is a piece I wrote back in August 2009 shortly after the trade explaining why the medical info they had to go on was limited.

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -fall.html
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:39 am

Perhaps the Knapp experience was part of the reason the FO insisted that Ubaldo pass a physical to their standards before finalizing the trade
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:18 am

TonyIPI wrote:Here is a piece I wrote back in August 2009 shortly after the trade explaining why the medical info they had to go on was limited.

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -fall.html


Hmmm.. Something doesn't exactly add up.. Not to belabor the point, but, when Knapp was placed on the minor league DL is it clear or reported anywhere that the Phillies had conducted an MRI and it came back clean, hence the diagnosis that it was biceps tendonitis?..

IDK.. a conspiracy theorist might want to infer/believe the Phillies withheld information (i.e. medical records that had been conducted prior to the trade) At this point, it's just speculation..

..Perhaps the Knapp experience was part of the reason the FO insisted that Ubaldo pass a physical to their standards before finalizing the trade...
In the case of Ubaldo (like Knapp), there was a specific indication of a potential problem with his pitching arm.. a noted drop in velocity. While the two minor injuries that occurred in spring training could/should more than explain the drop, the Indians may have been a bit more wary than they would have been if they didn't have the Jason Knapp experience/history, as you've suggested...
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:55 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Regarding the Indians FO's knowledge of any injury issues with Jason Knapp prior to the July 29, 2009 trade of Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco, here is what was known:

Phillie Baseball News: July 16, 2009 :Jason Knapp's impressive season has hit a bump in the road. The 18 year old right-hander was placed on the DL with what's being termed shoulder fatigue.

AOL News: Now when the Indians made the deal (July 29, 2009) they knew Knapp was suffering some tendinitis in his right bicep, and he was actually on the disabled list when they made the deal.

AOL News: When the Cleveland Indians received Jason Knapp from the Philadelphia Phillies as part of the Cliff Lee trade they knew that Knapp was on the minor league disabled list at the time. Still, after going over his medical records with the Phillies, Cleveland wasn't concerned about Knapp's biceps tendinitis. Then they had their own doctors take a look at Knapp a few weeks ago.

What they found were some "loose bodies" in Knapp's throwing shoulder. "Loose bodies" that were already in Knapp's arm when the Indians acquired him from the Phillis, and will now require him to undergo surgery on the shoulder.
Right-hander Jason Knapp, acquired from the Phillies as part of the Cliff Lee trade, will undergo surgery today in New York. Dr. David Altchek will perform an arthroscopic procedure to remove loose bodies from the 19-year-old's right shoulder.

''He's expected to make a full recovery in time for spring training,'' said Tribe head trainer Lonnie Soloff on Monday


Shoulder issues can be more than complex as the success rate for these types of injures are almost always a compromise. That is, something is given up (range of motion, strength, portions of both) to allow the player to return to "baseball activity".

What appears to be the case with this trade: The Indians medical team, didn't have a full understanding of the depth and degree of the injury to Jason Knapp, but went ahead, on their best medical advice at the time, anyway..


Thanks GSon.

A couple interesting quotes from Tony's Article:

"The Indians - or any club in baseball for that matter - cannot perform an MRI on a player when they are acquired in a trade."

" All the Indians or any other club can do is request all of the medical information the former club has on file, everything from doctor notes, x-rays, or previous MRIs that were done prior to the trade and then take all that information and have their doctors look over the information."

"After the physical and review of medical records, the doctors will either clear or not clear the player and based on that finding it is up to the front office to make a decision. In the case of Knapp, he was cleared by team doctors, there were absolutely no red flags, and the Indians were fine with that and okayed the trade."


I actually don't know how to react about this information. If our medical experts gave the OK, you cant really blame the front office for their lack of concern. Knapp was the obviously the best choice among the prospects that were available, and I remember some scouts saying the he would have been there highest ranked pitching prospect (over Drabek) had he completed the season without getting hurt.

The disturbing information in these articles is how the Phillies were unable to recognize loose bodies in the shoulder with any of their previous medical info. Im not accusing them of withholding information from us, but "loose bodies" just dont show up overnight. I guess it would be fair to just say we got VERY unlucky with Knapp's injury, and as others have mentioned, it happens all the time with young players. Hopefully Knapp can recover and make us all forget who we traded for him in the first place.

GO TRIBE!
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:42 pm

The impetus for this thread was a bozo who wanted to lay blame on the Indians for the trade(s).

The existence of a loose body can and should be picked up by an MRI.. By placing Knapp on the minor league DL, either the Phillies didn't want to bother with an MRI and the associated costs..or they were just giving him some time to rest until after the trading deadline.. at which time, they would conduct a more thorough examination. By waiting and putting Knapp on the DL, they risked nothing. If they had conducted at MRI.. and found the issue, then they were duty bound to include that information as part of the previous medical records of the player in question. Only two parties know for sure what happened..the Phillies and Jason Knapp.

Either way, Jason Knapp is now the property of the Indians. He will continue to rehab from the two surgeries. He has shown a strong work ethic and, if anyone can come back and become what was projected, Jason Knapp is that guy..
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby daingean » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:47 pm

1. Yes the Indians were not allowed to do a physical on the player

2. Yes the Phillies improperly diagnosed the situation

The other thing not stated yet is that the Indians could have chosen to file a grievance after they received Knapp and determined the injury was more extensive than the Phillies indicated. The Indians chose to keep Knapp (thinking the loose bodies were minor) and thus didn't file the grievance. Still to moan about 1 or 2 trades when the evidence is that many of them have worked out better for this team is really nitpicking. Also remember that Lee was the reigning Cy Young winner but had spent the previous year in the minors with a bad year. Lee was considered a good pitcher not an elite pitcher until his post season exploits for the Phillies (that's when his talents were legitimized). To over value Cliff now with regard to this trade is ignoring where he really was at the time of the trade.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:56 pm

Looks like Carrasco might need Tommy John surgery now. That makes Donald and Marson the only healthy contributors for the Indians, but they're both back-ups... I still like the Lee trade, however.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:04 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Looks like Carrasco might need Tommy John surgery now. That makes Donald and Marson the only healthy contributors for the Indians, but they're both back-ups... I still like the Lee trade, however.


Las noticias sobre este situacion estaba bien triste. Si necistara un operacion Tommy John, hay que espera casi diez y ochos mesas hasta si vaya estar listo a juegara un partido de beisbol..

Aqui es: http://www.liderendeportes.com/Noticias ... -John.aspx
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:04 pm

Looks like Carrasco might need Tommy John surgery now. That makes Donald and Marson the only healthy contributors for the Indians


okay maybe it was as bad as the sabathia trade
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby fallclassic » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:41 pm

[quote="GeronimoSon"]The impetus for this thread was a bozo who wanted to lay blame on the Indians for the trade(s).

Who should we blame bozo, Lebron? If you think these trades were worth the return investment, I've got some beach property in Arizona you might like to buy.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:44 pm

fallclassic wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The impetus for this thread was a bozo who wanted to lay blame on the Indians for the trade(s).

Who should we blame bozo, Lebron? If you think these trades were worth the return investment, I've got some beach property in Arizona you might like to buy.
Sure.. lake Havasu is considered a great place to swim, fish, boat, etc... Send over the prospectus/deed...

duh... :rolleyes:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:12 pm

daingean wrote:1. Yes the Indians were not allowed to do a physical on the player

2. Yes the Phillies improperly diagnosed the situation

The other thing not stated yet is that the Indians could have chosen to file a grievance after they received Knapp and determined the injury was more extensive than the Phillies indicated. The Indians chose to keep Knapp (thinking the loose bodies were minor) and thus didn't file the grievance. Still to moan about 1 or 2 trades when the evidence is that many of them have worked out better for this team is really nitpicking. Also remember that Lee was the reigning Cy Young winner but had spent the previous year in the minors with a bad year. Lee was considered a good pitcher not an elite pitcher until his post season exploits for the Phillies (that's when his talents were legitimized). To over value Cliff now with regard to this trade is ignoring where he really was at the time of the trade.


I agree. Cliff's time with the Phillies and great performance in the 09 playoffs are what put him in the elite tier of pitchers, and before that teams probably valued him as a #2 SP, but I based his value on the extra year he had remaining on his contract. One could very easily argue he had more value than Sabathia considering that extra year of control, and because it was a cheap year, it would have made him even more attractive to smaller market teams. Also, when a team acquires a player like Lee who is close to free agency, it gives them a significant advantage when offering an extension or free agent deal. I stand by my original comment that Lee was our most valuable trade piece since Big Fat Bartolo Colon (and Im basing BFBC's value solo on what we received in the deal).
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:37 pm

BrianM wrote:
daingean wrote:1. Yes the Indians were not allowed to do a physical on the player

2. Yes the Phillies improperly diagnosed the situation

The other thing not stated yet is that the Indians could have chosen to file a grievance after they received Knapp and determined the injury was more extensive than the Phillies indicated. The Indians chose to keep Knapp (thinking the loose bodies were minor) and thus didn't file the grievance. Still to moan about 1 or 2 trades when the evidence is that many of them have worked out better for this team is really nitpicking. Also remember that Lee was the reigning Cy Young winner but had spent the previous year in the minors with a bad year. Lee was considered a good pitcher not an elite pitcher until his post season exploits for the Phillies (that's when his talents were legitimized). To over value Cliff now with regard to this trade is ignoring where he really was at the time of the trade.


I agree. Cliff's time with the Phillies and great performance in the 09 playoffs are what put him in the elite tier of pitchers, and before that teams probably valued him as a #2 SP, but I based his value on the extra year he had remaining on his contract. One could very easily argue he had more value than Sabathia considering that extra year of control, and because it was a cheap year, it would have made him even more attractive to smaller market teams. Also, when a team acquires a player like Lee who is close to free agency, it gives them a significant advantage when offering an extension or free agent deal. I stand by my original comment that Lee was our most valuable trade piece since Big Fat Bartolo Colon (and Im basing BFBC's value solo on what we received in the deal).

If Lee was considered so valuable, then how come the Phillies traded him three months later for three fringe prospects, none of which have been in the MLs to my knowledge (please check Hermie) and frankly haven't made the talent to be an ML player apparent? :pleasantry:
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:17 am

...If Lee was considered so valuable, then how come the Phillies traded him three months later for three fringe prospects, none of which have been in the MLs to my knowledge (please check Hermie) and frankly haven't made the talent to be an ML player apparent? .,..

The Lee trade to the Mariners was a three team deal (later became a four team deal when the A's stepped in and made a one for one deal, after the fact). While it's been stated that the four teams involved were part of three separate transactions, the first step wouldn't have happened without the subsequent steps. Only the one for one could have been omitted, but, that's pee pee stuff..

Here is the basics of the deal: Toronto sent Halladay to the Phillies and $6 million (ostensibly, the cash was included in order for the Phillies to avoid sending Dominic Brown as part of the trade) for three minor leaguers: catcher Travis d'Arnaud, right-hander Kyle Drabek and outfielder Michael Taylor. The Phillies also work an extension of Halladay's contract, three years, $ 60 MM with additional vesting option year(s). The Phillies sent Lee to the Mariners for three minor leaguers: outfielder Tyson Gillies and right-handers Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez. The Blue Jays then send Michael Taylor to the Athletics for Brett Wallace.

Now..here's the real "meat" of the comment regarding Cliff Lee being traded:

The Phillies wanted to sign an extension with Cliff Lee, but he refused, stating that it was his intent to become a free agent. The Phillies realized that by becoming a free agent, they would be left with 'draft picks', decided that trading the former Cy Young Winner for prospects was a better choice and made the deal with the Mariners.

Deja Vu all over again.. huh?

The guys who were involved in this trade (excluding Lee & Halladay) haven't made much of an impact at the ML level.. at all. Kyle Drabek made some starts for the Jays before blowing out his elbow. Travis D'Arnaud may have caught a few games for the Jays... Brett Wallace might have had some AB's with the Astros, nothing earth shattering. The rest of the players ML abilities are clearly in the TBD column...
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:30 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
BrianM wrote:
daingean wrote:1. Yes the Indians were not allowed to do a physical on the player

2. Yes the Phillies improperly diagnosed the situation

The other thing not stated yet is that the Indians could have chosen to file a grievance after they received Knapp and determined the injury was more extensive than the Phillies indicated. The Indians chose to keep Knapp (thinking the loose bodies were minor) and thus didn't file the grievance. Still to moan about 1 or 2 trades when the evidence is that many of them have worked out better for this team is really nitpicking. Also remember that Lee was the reigning Cy Young winner but had spent the previous year in the minors with a bad year. Lee was considered a good pitcher not an elite pitcher until his post season exploits for the Phillies (that's when his talents were legitimized). To over value Cliff now with regard to this trade is ignoring where he really was at the time of the trade.


I agree. Cliff's time with the Phillies and great performance in the 09 playoffs are what put him in the elite tier of pitchers, and before that teams probably valued him as a #2 SP, but I based his value on the extra year he had remaining on his contract. One could very easily argue he had more value than Sabathia considering that extra year of control, and because it was a cheap year, it would have made him even more attractive to smaller market teams. Also, when a team acquires a player like Lee who is close to free agency, it gives them a significant advantage when offering an extension or free agent deal. I stand by my original comment that Lee was our most valuable trade piece since Big Fat Bartolo Colon (and Im basing BFBC's value solo on what we received in the deal).

If Lee was considered so valuable, then how come the Phillies traded him three months later for three fringe prospects, none of which have been in the MLs to my knowledge (please check Hermie) and frankly haven't made the talent to be an ML player apparent? :pleasantry:


Haha that is an overwhelmingly valid point Slinger. I don't know why the Phillies settled for so little, but who knows, they could eventually end up being productive major leaguers. The Mariners were able to prove Lee's value later in the year when they traded him for Justin Smoak, who was a top 10 prospect in all of baseball at the time (the media had claimed they were also offered Jesus Montero from the Yankees, but preferred Smoak).

The Phillies also proved my point about gaining an upper hand in free agency. He accepted a deal for less money and fewer years to play with the Phillies. He may have made his decision because of the potential to be a part of one of the best pitching staffs in history, but Im sure having already spent time in the organization and getting to know the players played a factor too.

I guess the only thing we can take from all these trades is that the value of a player is completely within the eyes of the organization, and some teams value certain players more (see the Perez, Broussard, and Blake trades...Yeehaw!)
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:55 pm

..... He may have made his decision because of the potential to be a part of one of the best pitching staffs in history, but Im sure having already spent time in the organization and getting to know the players played a factor too....
Or he may have a child that suffers from Autism and Philadelphia just happens to domicile one of the leading research hospitals on the illness..
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby BrianM » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:30 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
..... He may have made his decision because of the potential to be a part of one of the best pitching staffs in history, but Im sure having already spent time in the organization and getting to know the players played a factor too....
Or he may have a child that suffers from Autism and Philadelphia just happens to domicile one of the leading research hospitals on the illness..


http://lewp.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/wa ... -decision/

Yea good call. I was completely unaware of this. He has Leukemia, and it definitely sounds like this could have played a role, possibly a major role. No wonder he was so upset when he was traded to the Mariners. Either way, having familiarity to people and places is often a large factor when choosing where you want to have a career and raise a family, even if Lee's decision was based on other factors.
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Re: Sabathia & Lee Trades

Postby jellis » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:46 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
..... He may have made his decision because of the potential to be a part of one of the best pitching staffs in history, but Im sure having already spent time in the organization and getting to know the players played a factor too....
Or he may have a child that suffers from Autism and Philadelphia just happens to domicile one of the leading research hospitals on the illness..



Here is the thing, leading resource center for Autism is a bit of a misnomer, it would be like being near one of the biggest research center on ADD or mental retardation. Its all about the specific program for the child,because frankly for the last 30 years with tweaks the same approach has been used to teach this kids. My friend just got a job as a special education teacher in NYC, its extremely hard right now because of higher freezing, and it was because of his experience with ABA. Also the biggest Autism resources school wise, and program wise are in NYC, so if that was the basis for his decisions he would nto be in Philly
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