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Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby stoike » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:11 pm

Okay, hope no one has an issue with me starting a new thread on this, but was wondering who the experts (Tony, Slinger, etc) would rate as the top-10 pitching prospects since we traded 3 of the top 10 starting prospects. OUCH. Thanks! Very curious on this....
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:19 pm

Heck, I would just love for someone to try and retool our top ten overall prospects... I'm not sure I could even do that right now.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:24 pm

If Howard is signed (which sounds likely), i don't see how he isn't the #1 pitching spec. Hagadone has great stuff but is a bullpen guy. Knapp...if you have his as a starter still could be it but injury probably bumps him down some.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:32 pm

You take this http://indiansprospectinsider.prophpbb.com/topic1152.html then you chop off the top 3!

Just kidding.

It's tough to rank them in order but for me it's mostly young guys now.

Not including relief pitchers, Dillon Howard (when signed), Jake Sisco, Felix Sterling, Jason Knapp, Scott Barnes, Giovanni Soto, Elvis Araujo, Manuel Carmona, Hector Rondon are up there still. Tough to put them in order now with age/injury but even though we lost White/Pomeranz, the cupboard is far from bare. Difference is that the strength is now further down the system.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:42 pm

Hermie13 wrote:If Howard is signed (which sounds likely), i don't see how he isn't the #1 pitching spec. Hagadone has great stuff but is a bullpen guy. Knapp...if you have his as a starter still could be it but injury probably bumps him down some.


Maybe a bit too optimistic, but what about Araujo and Sterling? And lets not forget Barnes either.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:44 pm

With the help of some others (boards contributors), Petes999 & I tried to update the top prospect listing earlier this month. List and article with comments are with Tony.

Taking Drew and Alex out of the mix hurts the current listing and you really can't say draft picks rank 'x' until those guys actually sign. I have to echo someone else's post/ tweet - its really important that some of those recent pitching draft picks get signed.

As for the question of this thread, among other pitching prospects the Tribe has are: Scott Barnes (currently injured), Jason Knapp (currently injured), Zach McAllister (AAA), and a handful of relievers: Nick Hagadone, Chen Lee, Zach Putnam, Rob Bryson, Josh Judy.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:53 pm

After this trade I think the tribe is without a doubt 100% signing Howard and at least 80% Peters

1. Howard
2. (already getting hard) Barnes
3. Peters
4. Lee
5. Knapp (pretty high.. could be lower IMO..)
6. McAllister
7. Soto
9. Bryson
8. Sterling..
10. (Guess....) Hagadone..Araujo..Packer...Stowell...Blair..Rayl....


Tough crowd.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:01 pm

criznit2009 wrote:After this trade I think the tribe is without a doubt 100% signing Howard and at least 80% Peters

1. Howard
2. (already getting hard) Barnes
3. Peters
4. Lee
5. Knapp (pretty high.. could be lower IMO..)
6. McAllister
7. Soto
9. Bryson
8. Sterling..
10. (Guess....) Hagadone..Araujo..Packer...Stowell...Blair..Rayl....


Tough crowd.


I would still have rondon in there, dont forget about him, before injury he was better thought of then White in some circles
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:05 pm

jellis wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:After this trade I think the tribe is without a doubt 100% signing Howard and at least 80% Peters

1. Howard
2. (already getting hard) Barnes
3. Peters
4. Lee
5. Knapp (pretty high.. could be lower IMO..)
6. McAllister
7. Soto
8. Bryson
9. Sterling..
10. (Guess....) Hagadone..Araujo..Packer...Stowell...Blair..Rayl....


Tough crowd.


I would still have rondon in there, dont forget about him, before injury he was better thought of then White in some circles


True... Pop him in at 9. If he stays healthy he rises for sure
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:10 pm

1. Howard
2. Barnes
3. Sterling
4. Soto
5. Knapp
6. Peters
7. Bryson
8. Peters
9. Araujo
10A. Goodnight (going out on a limb with this one)
10B. Jake Cisco (another risky pick)
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:12 pm

JP_Frost wrote:1. Howard
2. Barnes
3. Sterling
4. Soto
5. Knapp
6. Peters
7. Bryson
8. Peters
9. Araujo
10A. Goodnight (going out on a limb with this one)
10B. Jake Cisco (another risky pick)


Lucky man!! You got two Peters! Rondon?
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:20 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:1. Howard
2. Barnes
3. Sterling
4. Soto
5. Knapp
6. Peters
7. Bryson
8. Peters
9. Araujo
10A. Goodnight (going out on a limb with this one)
10B. Jake Cisco (another risky pick)


Lucky man!! You got two Peters! Rondon?


My mistake. Copied and pasted your list and made some changes.

Make that:

8. Araujo
9. Goodnight
10. Cisco
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:29 pm

I've been really impressed with CC Lee. I've never seen him, but the numbers he is putting up are very impressive.

criz, I got a lot of respect for someone that sticks his neck out on the line and ranks pitching prospects at a time like this, particularly when it's such a thin talent pool. I think it's a good list.

Just a general observation; Dillon Peters would not crack my top 10 (pitching prospect). Saw his start in the state finals; I like him as a prospect, but his ceiling just isn't very high. Peters is a shortish, less than athletic body type lefty with avg velo and little projection. He's deceptive and has a good breaking ball, but he's not the top prospect type. Now, I think his velo is effectively higher than what the guns read b/c he's deceptive and his arm action is quick and darting. I'm not trying to trash him or anything b/c I've got a good feeling about him but am not in love with his upside. Physically, arm action (kind of), and delivery-wise Peters is pretty similar to Billy Wagner, but like 8mph less on the gun :) I want him signed, but I'm not at all expecting a guy that'd be a 1, 2 or 3 starter. 4th starter is my upside on Peters.

One guy that I'd DEFINITELY take over Peters is Elvis Araujo. He is 6'6", throws from a tall slot and from multiple accounts is throwing his fastball 92-97mph. His curve is not there right now, but with his slot and natural leverage, I can see him developing a good offspeed pitch. Araujo isn't really physically projectable at this point, but there is a LOT to work with on this guy if you're a pitching coach. Very attractive upside on Araujo. I haven't given it much consideration, but I could see a case being made that Araujo makes the Indians top 10 prospect list at the end of the year. His numbers aren't that great, but from a scouting perspective, Araujo has what you're looking for!
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:06 am

Hey Tony, I don't want to come across as to asking you do more work b/c you already provide us all with so much, but with the exodus of three upper level pitching prospects, do you think you could get some info on Hector Rondon's recovery? It seems as though his timetable should have him getting ready to toss some baseballs and throwing off flat ground sometime soon.

I was impressed by this guy in 2009. I just really like the way his arm worked and liked his fastball. To me, he had that trait where his fastball would just get by hitters consistently, even though he didn't have the major league average off-speed stuff. In 2009, he had 139 K vs. 29 BB in AAA and AA and, at least by my estimation, had a loose arm, good arm speed and had more physical projection coming. I was not impressed so much by his offspeed stuff, but I was pretty excited about Rondon. Guys typically come back OK from TJ surgery. This is a guy that won't be ranked in our top 10 list at the end of the year, but easily could find his way back in it if he has a good recovery.

Judging by the top 10 prospect lists on this thread, people have pretty much already forgotten about him! If you've got the time, any sort of quick update would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:10 am

OhioBaseball wrote:Hey Tony, I don't want to come across as to asking you do more work b/c you already provide us all with so much, but with the exodus of three upper level pitching prospects, do you think you could get some info on Hector Rondon's recovery? It seems as though his timetable should have him getting ready to toss some baseballs and throwing off flat ground sometime soon.

I was impressed by this guy in 2009. I just really like the way his arm worked and liked his fastball. To me, he had that trait where his fastball would just get by hitters consistently, even though he didn't have the major league average off-speed stuff. In 2009, he had 139 K vs. 29 BB in AAA and AA and, at least by my estimation, had a loose arm, good arm speed and had more physical projection coming. I was not impressed so much by his offspeed stuff, but I was pretty excited about Rondon. Guys typically come back OK from TJ surgery. This is a guy that won't be ranked in our top 10 list at the end of the year, but easily could find his way back in it if he has a good recovery.

Judging by the top 10 prospect lists on this thread, people have pretty much already forgotten about him! If you've got the time, any sort of quick update would be very much appreciated.


Not so much forgotten about him as we are sceptical about him.

He pitched 31 pretty horrible AAA innings in 2010 and hasn't pitched since. Sure, he's got a pretty high ceiling and is still young, but he has been surpassed by others. Same goes for Alexander Perez.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:21 am

How well guys rebound from injury will be critical to the depth of the pitching. If none of the guys make it 'back', the starting pitching is less than thin. If they all make it 'back', the organization can realistically withstand the loss of White, Gardner & Pomeranz.

While some recall the Knapp & Barnes are currently hurt, there is also Hector Rondon (already mentioned), Alexander Perez & Giovanny Soto on the mend.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:24 am

I go on vacation & see what happens?

I noticed Jeanmar & KDLC made no one's top ten. They'd both be top 5 on mine:

1. Knapp
2. Barnes
3. Howard(big reach for me here for a real talent who hasn't thrown a pro pitch)
4. Jeanmar
5. KDLC
6. Bryson
7. Haley(can't let go)
8. Araujo
9. Sisco
10. Sterling/Aviles
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:29 am

Kelvin de la Cruz is still eligible for prospect status.
Jeanmar Gomez is not eligible for prospect status - too much time and IP in the majors between last season and this season.

I'm a Cruz fan but I think he is headed to the bullpen as a LOGGY. His splits scream for the move to take place.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:34 am

I'm sure the performances of Barnes, McCallister, and Gomez eased the loss of Pom and White for Antonetti. The return of Rondon,Perez, and DLC, the reemergence of Huff, and the signing of Howard and others, adds a little insurance too. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hagadone put in Columbus' rotation next year after Barnes is called up. I'll leave the ranking up to those who know more about this years drafted pitchers, but this system still has good pitching depth. Not to get off topic, but if Carmona was to perform well from here on out he could be traded in the offseason or before next years deadline to partially replace the loss of Pom and White. I never even mentioned Knapp and Adams(who I think will continue to clime).
Last edited by Chip Davis on Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:41 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Kelvin de la Cruz is still eligible for prospect status.
Jeanmar Gomez is not eligible for prospect status - too much time and IP in the majors between last season and this season.

I'm a Cruz fan but I think he is headed to the bullpen as a LOGGY. His splits scream for the move to take place.

Then I'd move everyone up one , put Sterling #9 & Aviles #10. Also, if Masterson can learn to pitch as a SP, I believe DLC has the arsenal to do the same. JMO.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:49 am

Rocky55 wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Kelvin de la Cruz is still eligible for prospect status.
Jeanmar Gomez is not eligible for prospect status - too much time and IP in the majors between last season and this season.

I'm a Cruz fan but I think he is headed to the bullpen as a LOGGY. His splits scream for the move to take place.

Then I'd move everyone up one , put Sterling #9 & Aviles #10. Also, if Masterson can learn to pitch as a SP, I believe DLC has the arsenal to do the same. JMO.


Add Hagadone to that list too.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:32 am

1. Lee
2. Soto
3. Gomez
4. McAllister
5. Barnes
6. Sisco
7. Burns
8. Bryson
9. Packer
10. McFarland

Didn't include non-signed picks...and yeah, I've given up on Knapp...when he picthes more than 30 Innings in 2 years I might consider him a spec again...Putnam and Hagadone are overrated, sorry
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:40 am

Would you please explain how Hagadone and Putnam are overrated and have Soto at 2? Please don't take this a sarcasm, I really want to hear your opinion. I think the only reason Hagadone was put in the pen was to get him to the big club quicker and I think they have always had the intention of making him a starter again. I've always wondered why Putnam was in the pen. His deep mix of pitches screams starter to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:25 am

Hagadone has potential to be an EXTREMELY good LOOGY, that's his FLOOR. I know some may undervalue that but the guy's numbers are deflated because he's working against righties so that he can become more than that. Still, in a league with great left handed hitters, getting that one guaranteed out is huge. Lefties hit .172 off of the guy and have consistently been unable to touch him. I don't see how that can be overrated, I think some can understandably say that Hagadone is UNDERrated.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:08 am

I'm all about production, consistency and durability...my ranking is just a c/p from my mid-season rankings I submitted some weeks ago to MT for the gallery

Hagadone is a LOOGY-only...after being a "high upisde" SP...he 1st failed and disappointed as a SP spec, then as a complete late Inn RP...now, he's being salvaged as LOOGY...yeah, I too think he has the chance to be a very good LOOGY and that HAS some value...I just think that LOOGY isn't just his FLOOR, it's also his ceiling....he cut down his BB-rate considerably bu it seems at the expense of getting lit up by RH bats...againts LH he has 5 walks in 9Inn, small sample but looks like he's being told to concentrate on being a LOOGY, thus not "throwing" against LH...that's his last ticket remaining to make it...at this point he's really "just" a LHP version of Herrmann in my book = a fringe BP guy that I'm not completely sold on to be a shutdown LOOGY either...

this is how I see his odds: 20% 1 and done (or up and down) LHP AAAA guy, 60% LHP version of Herrmann, 20% LHP version of Joe Smith


Putnam just underwhelms me...he flirts with a 4 ERA every season at every level as a RP, MiLB hitters avg around .250 against him...at 1 point his "stuff" has to show some results, and it just doesn't except for "spurts" but even Carlton Smith had some good weeks...if he really has that great stuff, it makes it even worse that he's so underperforming, which could hint to underachieving or poor pitchability or poor work ethic, whatever it is, it's going to be exposed at the highest level....seen this pattern too many times, odds are simply against him imho....but I haven't completely given up on him, same with Hagadone, and I hope they prove me wrong....maybe I'm just making sure to not get disappointed again by those 2 guys

Soto is pretty much the opposite of those 2 above...he doesn't have the stuff but + pitchability and he's still a SP, which of course is more valuable...dominated although being underaged for levels he's been at...AA will be real test but I'm confident he'll pass if healthy....his latest injury really is the biggest problem I see with him...he's the best SP-spec for me as I like his mix of advanced pitchability (a must to succeed in Majors imho, see Tomlin) and upside left (I expect a velo increase, his FB will never be dominant but will touch 90s)...Howard, if signed, and Sisco are similar regarding this "mix" and I can see them overtaking Soto soon having better stuff/ceilings

I'm still VERY high on Packer...don't sleep on him, his ratios are still very solid, look beyond the ERA, his FIP and LOB% are indicating a mix of bad luck/timing

Adams looks like a Masterson-light version...walks too many but still acceptable as SP but should be a pretty good RP, I think that's where he's heading

I didn't include any long time injured pitchers as it's hard to "predict" how they'll come back but I really, really like both Rondon and Alex Perez
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:15 am

Really hard to slot guys this way, so many guys are having similar years and top guys have injuries or just coming back from them Soto, Barnes, Bryson, Aviles, Rondon, Perez, Araujo for example. Also I don't know much about Peters so perhaps I do have hime ranked to high, I will look closer if/when we sign him.

Side note. Now with 2 SP slots open in Akron, do you get risky and send Hagadone down there to man one? I doubt they do it but wouldn't be opposed to it.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:21 am

Instead of keeping a top 10 in mind, I usually keep prospects separated into classifications until it is time to merge them. I will not make a lot of changes until the 8/15 but the biggest mover within the categories has been McFarland for me. He has moved to #2 in the LHSP category behind only Barnes. I don't really know if that gets him in the top 10. I had already moved White, Kipnis and Chis out of my rankings so that blow is limited to my #1 Pomeranz. Not too worried about system depth because I have several DLs whose recovery effects my top 10. I don't know the draftees the way many of you do but, from what I have seen, it is likely only Lindor and Howard are top 10 consideration in my eyes. He won't be top 10 but I like the looks of Cody Allen and hope to see him in ST for a good look.
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Re: Top 10 pitching prospects post-trade

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:57 am

I originally posted this under KTribe thread. Think it's relevant in view of Gio Soto injury.


Thought I'd share a little insight on the Giovonni Soto injury. Soto has left elbow ulnar nueritis without UCL tear... The last part is significant, there is no tearing of the UCL. I had this injury to my left elbow 3 yrs ago. My elbow has / had slight tear of UCL did not have surgery... The muscles around the nerve can actually wrap so tight that it begins to squeeze the nerve causing numbness and tingling, this can be worked around with rest and stretching out the muscles its simply the nature of things... You use muscles often they become stronger, in this case it's almost working against you bc of the injury. The good side of this is no tearing of the UCL, the bad side (last resort... If this continues) is his elbow could require ulnar nerve transposition -moving the nerve deeper into forearm- similar to what Anthony Reyes has endured (Reyes also required TJ).
For perspective sake... 3 yrs later I still experience some minimal numbness and tingling the elbow (actually while I was reading about his injury) there is some weakness that has seemingly persisted but likely bc of slight tear and nerve irritation. The best case and likely case with the treatment Soto will receive is this was caught early there seemed to be no prior injury history, Soto's youth and precautionary treatment like rest and stretching I believe Soto will be fine but this is something to watch and could be more serious than it simply appears. As Soto matures more physically, hopefully he adds physical strength and size which could actually ease the torq placed on his elbow if combined with proper rest, limited innings / pitch count, stretching, strengthening and mechanics. Overall this could be a re-occurring injury but with no prior history hopefully this was caught before it really got started, a key could be watching his control and fb velocity.
*** keep an eye on his velo. And innings and if stretched out he will be fine***
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