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White vs Pomeranz

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White vs Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:49 pm

Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby danh8 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:54 pm

ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


How about we give both some more time to develop ...look how far White has come in one year.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:29 pm

danh8 wrote:
ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


How about we give both some more time to develop ...look how far White has come in one year.


Agree. Funny thing is more scouts feel Pomeranz is more likely to be a rotation guy and White the bullpen guy (though most feel both are starters).

Not sure why this needed a new thread too, and not just go on the "pomeranz" thread....
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby daingean » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:34 pm

I vote for both.......we have both and I hope both become the backbone of future rotations.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:51 pm

daingean wrote:I vote for both.......we have both and I hope both become the backbone of future rotations.

Agree with this. Saw them both pitch in college, liked them both, was ecstatic when we drafted them. Let's get us another couple this year. :drinks:
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:36 pm

ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


He does not have 3 plus pitches, he is a MOR starter. the fastball ranking is a bit false as it was before the season began, and when he was considered a sure top 5 pick. Pomeranz is by far the superior pitcher
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:57 pm

IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby stoike » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:40 pm

A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)



I think that White has better stuff than what would warrant a #4 starter status. I think people calling him a BOR starter are selling him far short. JMHO
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:15 am

A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If that would be the rotation in 2 years it would be sick. Where do guys like De La Cruz and Gardner fit? I do think Pom has a slightly higher upside than White, but both to me have FOR potential.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:36 am

Every single draft expert in the world 100% disagrees with you.



jellis wrote:
ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


He does not have 3 plus pitches, he is a MOR starter. the fastball ranking is a bit false as it was before the season began, and when he was considered a sure top 5 pick. Pomeranz is by far the superior pitcher
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:38 am


Absolutley zero chance Pomeranz is a 2 starter with only 2 pitches same with White being at best a 4 guy. You continue to show your lack of baseball intelligence




jellis wrote:
ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


He does not have 3 plus pitches, he is a MOR starter. the fastball ranking is a bit false as it was before the season began, and when he was considered a sure top 5 pick. Pomeranz is by far the superior pitcher
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:49 am

I scouted both of these guys when they were high school pitchers and spent considerable time in ST watching them. I really do not think much has changed since HS except both are more consistent with movement, velocity and, especially, command. I have always thought that Pomeranz has the higher ceiling but I still think that they will both be judged by how good their third pitches become. If both stay healthy, I think #3 starter would be a reasonable projection for both. I do not see White going to the pen and would still put his ceiling at a #2 unless there is greater growth in secondary pitches than I sensed this spring. Pomeranz only has experience and development of an above average third pitch between him and a #2 ranking and he has a year less as a pro. Personally, I think it would be foolish to rush either. Make their six years count when they are ready.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:57 am

@ indiansinkslinger well said. Disagree a bit though. I'd project Pomeranz as a potential 1, (solid 2) not ACE bc those are few and far between but a front of the rotation power lefty. He definitely needs that third pitch, but could also add another... Cutter, slider to his repoire once he gets a feel for the change. If he works it effectively changing speed on his FB dropping in his plus curve, avg will work with his change. None of the games real ACEs have all plus offerings but a cpl combined with an avg pitch or 2 as show me offerings.

I really like both guys. I wouldn't want to choose one over the other and we don't have to. IMO White could be a wipeout closer but should develop into a solid 2 starter I believe he will be a rotation workhorse logging 200 innings per yr. Whites been sharpe so far at AAA let's hope he keeps it up.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:48 am

ClevBuck wrote:Absolutley zero chance Pomeranz is a 2 starter with only 2 pitches same with White being at best a 4 guy. You continue to show your lack of baseball intelligence




jellis wrote:
ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


He does not have 3 plus pitches, he is a MOR starter. the fastball ranking is a bit false as it was before the season began, and when he was considered a sure top 5 pick. Pomeranz is by far the superior pitcher


Pomeranz has a change up, YOU continue to show YOUR lack of intelligence. He's still in the process of developing the third pitch. It's not like he's going to go through his whole minor league and major league career without developing another pitch. White is a MOR starter, IMO. Don't act as if White has developed all of his pitches either; there's a reason many experts viewed him as a late inning arm rather than a starter. Pomeranz has more upside than White. I'm not knocking White, he's a good pitcher, but let's be real here.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:51 am

Chip Davis wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If that would be the rotation in 2 years it would be sick. Where do guys like De La Cruz and Gardner fit? I do think Pom has a slightly higher upside than White, but both to me have FOR potential.


It's a good problem to have. And there's a good chance the Indians may take another arm this year in the first round, who is going to be very good. Add him to the mix too.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:16 am

At this moment Pomeranz is the better prospect. Coming from the left side with that fastball-curveball combo is better than White's fastball-splitter combo coming from the right side. White does not have a third plus pitch. The slider HAS plus potential but it is not a plus offering right now. What ultimately may happen is Pomeranz/White both get their third pitches to at lease average.

Right now there is no doubt among scouts as Pomeranz being a starter. Probably a good #2/3 guy with FOR ability. On the other hand scouts are not unanimous in believing he is a starter as a lot of guys still think he settles into a backend bullpen role or #4 starter. Me personally I think White has potential as a #2/3 starter. I don't think he has FOR ability, but who knows. He along with Pomeranz hav made big strides so far this year. To me both are the top two prospects in the system now. Not to cut Chisenhall or Kipnis short, but those two pitchers are two of the best in the minors!
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby bmonnig » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:26 am

John Sickels has a writeup on White today.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/4/2 ... nd-indians

White's stock was already high, but it's bolted higher in '11. He has two strong secondary pitches: a plus splitter and an improving slider.


Like Harvey, White has sometimes been seen as a future closer, but the improvements with his secondary pitches and command have eased those worries and he's definitely a starter now. If he continues pitching well for Columbus, he'll be ready to reinforce the Cleveland staff later this summer.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby davidkey » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:32 am

TonyIPI wrote:At this moment Pomeranz is the better prospect. Coming from the left side with that fastball-curveball combo is better than White's fastball-splitter combo coming from the right side. White does not have a third plus pitch. The slider HAS plus potential but it is not a plus offering right now. What ultimately may happen is Pomeranz/White both get their third pitches to at lease average.

Right now there is no doubt among scouts as Pomeranz being a starter. Probably a good #2/3 guy with FOR ability. On the other hand scouts are not unanimous in believing he is a starter as a lot of guys still think he settles into a backend bullpen role or #4 starter. Me personally I think White has potential as a #2/3 starter. I don't think he has FOR ability, but who knows. He along with Pomeranz hav made big strides so far this year. To me both are the top two prospects in the system now. Not to cut Chisenhall or Kipnis short, but those two pitchers are two of the best in the minors!



Just to clarify here Tony, you write that Pomeranz is ".....probably a good 2/3 guy with FOR Ability. On the other hand scouts are not....". Did you mean to write that Pomeranz is ....probably a good 2/3 guy. White, on the other hand....." ??
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:21 pm

A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If Knapp ends up a #1, we will be winning a World Series or two.....I hope you are right and he does not end up a closer :drinks:
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby petes999 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:02 pm

For me it doesn't matter who will be better in the end ... the good news is that we are having that debate and it can be argued either way.

I myself had White as the #1 prospect in our system this year... more or less because I took Chisenhall down a notch for being consistent but not All-star highlight real potential. Thus, having White who could be FOR starter played to me for a better upside. The only downgrade for Pom was that he wasn't proven which he has taken care of in just a few starts. So, now I would put them neck and neck.

Also wanted to share this from BA ... just off the press as they had White as their #5 hot prospect this week (Pom was #1 last week).

"The Scoop: At the end of the 2010 season, the Indians' took away White's splitter to help him focus on his slider. White pitches off his heavy sinking fastball, but his splitter was his out-pitch, and without it, he struggled last August and his strikeouts went down. With his full arsenal, White has been in command in Triple-A, holding a 2.00 ERA through his first three starts with 20 strikeouts and three walks in 18 innings. Is a major league debut coming soon? The Indians likely wouldn't start White's service clock any sooner than necessary, so there's little chance he's in Cleveland before June. After that, once the miniature ERAs of Josh Tomlin, Justin Masteron and Mitch Talbot regress to more sustainable levels, White could be a call-up to watch."

Shows you that they are not high on Masterson ... Goes to show you that sometimes their info is a bit outdated as the rely on talking to scouts to get info on soo many players. For me, Masterson is going to be fighting with Carmona as our #1 starter after All-star break. Think that with Adams and De La Cruz, we shouldn't have a problem filling out our rotation over the next few years instead of trying to find someone to fill in at the BOR.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:17 pm

ClevBuck wrote:Every single draft expert in the world 100% disagrees with you.



jellis wrote:
ClevBuck wrote:Am I alone in thinking White has more upside and thinking he is the better prospect then pomeranz? White has 3 plus pitches in his fastball (which was ranked 2nd best being strasburg in his draft according to keith law) splitter and slider. Pomeranz only has 2 in his fastball and Curved and white still has a at worst below average change up while pomeranz really doesn't have more then 2 pitches. I believe white is a few months younger, they both have some control issues, white has better strike out potential imo. I think nce teams figure put Pomeranz only has a 1-2 pitching arsenal he's going to get rocked often. I think if he can develop a better change and good 4th pitch he might be on Whites level but I don't see Pomeranz more then a 3 guy but more likley a BP arm


He does not have 3 plus pitches, he is a MOR starter. the fastball ranking is a bit false as it was before the season began, and when he was considered a sure top 5 pick. Pomeranz is by far the superior pitcher



Show me one, every report says the counter, is this another insider board with no proof. Must people see White as a MOR at best, I call BS
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:35 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If that would be the rotation in 2 years it would be sick. Where do guys like De La Cruz and Gardner fit? I do think Pom has a slightly higher upside than White, but both to me have FOR potential.


It's a good problem to have. And there's a good chance the Indians may take another arm this year in the first round, who is going to be very good. Add him to the mix too.


Personally, I hope the Tribe DOES NOT TAKE a pitcher in the 1st round of the 2011draft. At this point there are many arms in the system and other system aspects are starting to look rather thin. A year ago I could understand drafting another pitcher, especially when considering the various injuries and struggles various guys were having. Now - its time to starting adding depth to other areas.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby petes999 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:47 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Personally, I hope the Tribe DOES NOT TAKE a pitcher in the 1st round of the 2011draft. At this point there are many arms in the system and other system aspects are starting to look rather thin. A year ago I could understand drafting another pitcher, especially when considering the various injuries and struggles various guys were having. Now - its time to starting adding depth to other areas.


I would argue for taking another pitcher ... can never have too much depth. I do see your point though with weakness elsewhere. However, more for the draft page ... but, if our strength in the last few drafts have been pitching, I would go with that and then trade for that proven OF bat when the time arises with one great pitcher and one BOR pitcher. Last few deadlines, seems like young pitching has been tough to pry away ... rather be on that end of things as only a few systems have the depth we have.
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby stoike » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:54 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If that would be the rotation in 2 years it would be sick. Where do guys like De La Cruz and Gardner fit? I do think Pom has a slightly higher upside than White, but both to me have FOR potential.


It's a good problem to have. And there's a good chance the Indians may take another arm this year in the first round, who is going to be very good. Add him to the mix too.


Personally, I hope the Tribe DOES NOT TAKE a pitcher in the 1st round of the 2011draft. At this point there are many arms in the system and other system aspects are starting to look rather thin. A year ago I could understand drafting another pitcher, especially when considering the various injuries and struggles various guys were having. Now - its time to starting adding depth to other areas.


Pete beat me to it, and said it pretty well. I would love to take in impact bat, but the most important thing is to take the best player available. Hell...if you can get a guy that falls down the draft for whatever reason that happens to have #1 starter potential, you HAVE to take that player. If an impact bat is available, even if it is at a position of strength in the organization, you have to take that player. You cannot draft simply for needs in the first round.....
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:16 pm

stoike wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:IMO, Pomeranz has the higher upside. If I had to guess, Pomeranz #2 in the rotation, White #4. For those wondering... Knapp #1, Masterson #3, Carrasco #5.

(Looking into the future)


If that would be the rotation in 2 years it would be sick. Where do guys like De La Cruz and Gardner fit? I do think Pom has a slightly higher upside than White, but both to me have FOR potential.


It's a good problem to have. And there's a good chance the Indians may take another arm this year in the first round, who is going to be very good. Add him to the mix too.


Personally, I hope the Tribe DOES NOT TAKE a pitcher in the 1st round of the 2011draft. At this point there are many arms in the system and other system aspects are starting to look rather thin. A year ago I could understand drafting another pitcher, especially when considering the various injuries and struggles various guys were having. Now - its time to starting adding depth to other areas.


Pete beat me to it, and said it pretty well. I would love to take in impact bat, but the most important thing is to take the best player available. Hell...if you can get a guy that falls down the draft for whatever reason that happens to have #1 starter potential, you HAVE to take that player. If an impact bat is available, even if it is at a position of strength in the organization, you have to take that player. You cannot draft simply for needs in the first round.....

:yahoo:

agreed this guys wont help for 3 to 4 years from the day the draft occurs, you take talent and sort it otu later
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Re: White vs Pomeranz

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:03 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ indiansinkslinger well said. Disagree a bit though. I'd project Pomeranz as a potential 1, (solid 2) not ACE bc those are few and far between but a front of the rotation power lefty. He definitely needs that third pitch, but could also add another... Cutter, slider to his repoire once he gets a feel for the change. If he works it effectively changing speed on his FB dropping in his plus curve, avg will work with his change. None of the games real ACEs have all plus offerings but a cpl combined with an avg pitch or 2 as show me offerings.

I really like both guys. I wouldn't want to choose one over the other and we don't have to. IMO White could be a wipeout closer but should develop into a solid 2 starter I believe he will be a rotation workhorse logging 200 innings per yr. Whites been sharpe so far at AAA let's hope he keeps it up.

Thaks homer but not as well said as I should have. I did not mean to suggest or imply that Pomeranz is limited to the #2 rank, only that an above average change with normal development should get him there. To be a true #1 IMO, his change needs to approach plus and it would help to have a fourth above average pitch. With his throwing mechanics, a cutter would seem to be the obvious choice to me but that is way beyond my pay grade. A lot to ask of a developing prospect at this stage but not impossible. I thought about the question more and I would suggest that White might be closer to #2 right now than Pomeranz is to a #1 but that would be a lot fairer question at the end of this year. :drinks:
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