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Pomeranz

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Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:15 pm

Has he developed a 4th pitch yet? Is he working on any any pitch in general as a 4th?
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:19 pm

check the profiles on the site, tony has all this type of information up in the player areas
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby petes999 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:49 pm

From what I recall, Pom has a good fastball and curveball that he throws by flicking his fingers instead of his wrist. He has a potential change-up but never really showed it in college as he didn't need it. As of this spring, no word yet on his change up. But, what a first start.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:21 pm

petes999 wrote:From what I recall, Pom has a good fastball and curveball that he throws by flicking his fingers instead of his wrist. He has a potential change-up but never really showed it in college as he didn't need it. As of this spring, no word yet on his change up. But, what a first start.

Watched him pitch 5 IP in a spring intrasquad game. He threw 60-70% fast balls and 20-25% breaking balls. The change was more of a show-me pitch until Chen hit a fast ball for a 450 ft. HR. He seemed to get more serious about changing speeds after that. IMO, he looks a ways away from a quality change. I wouldn't want to mess with anything that would endanger his two plus pitches but he looks to be a natural candidate for a split. :pleasantry:
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:49 pm

2 plus pitchers or not gotta add something. Never heard of a quality FOR with only 2 plus pitches

Would like to see him add a sinker over a splitter
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:17 am

ClevBuck wrote:2 plus pitchers or not gotta add something. Never heard of a quality FOR with only 2 plus pitches

Would like to see him add a sinker over a splitter


Not sure I would agree with that. First it depends on how good those 2 plus pitches are. Secondly it depends on how good those 3rd and 4th pitches are. I mean saying they're not plus pitches doesn't exactly mean they're not at least so-so. All he really has to do is throw them a few times a game just to make them know he has it and will throw it.

Even if it's not a plus pitch, even if it's just a mediocre pitch, if they're looking for something else, it will be difficult to hit
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:09 am

Not an option to agree there hasn't been a quality FOR sarter with only 2 good pitches in a very ling time its just history and facts. He'll never make it on just 2 pitches
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Edible14 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:33 am

ClevBuck wrote:Not an option to agree there hasn't been a quality FOR sarter with only 2 good pitches in a very ling time its just history and facts. He'll never make it on just 2 pitches


Nobody is suggesting he will. He already has 3, it's just that his third (change) isn't that good yet. It's his first full season as a pro. He has time.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:29 am

Clev is right.. for a pitcher to be considered a front of the rotation starter.. an assortment of pitches, including one that has what is considered a wrinkle (change, knuckle curve, split, etc) is needed.. that's why Pomeranz is where he's at.. to develop and command that third and possibly fourth pitch. He's a FOR prospect who should continue to mature and realize his potential... at least we hope so.. :s_smile
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:02 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Clev is right.. for a pitcher to be considered a front of the rotation starter.. an assortment of pitches, including one that has what is considered a wrinkle (change, knuckle curve, split, etc) is needed.. that's why Pomeranz is where he's at.. to develop and command that third and possibly fourth pitch. He's a FOR prospect who should continue to mature and realize his potential... at least we hope so.. :s_smile


There's a difference between saying he can't be an FOR starter with only 2 quality pitches than saying he can't make it at all.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:17 am

ClevBuck wrote:Not an option to agree there hasn't been a quality FOR sarter with only 2 good pitches in a very ling time its just history and facts. He'll never make it on just 2 pitches


Agree you need more than two pitches to be a FOR starter. But you don't need to have three plus pitches. Few pitchers, even FOR guys like Sabathia, Lee, Halladay, etc have three plus pitches. If you have average third/fourth offerings, you can certainly be a FOR guy.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby davidkey » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:29 am

Apparently Pomeranz has been reading this site, and this thread in particular:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news ... &fext=.jsp

Crazy to see that what he did in his first start was done only with fastballs. Even crazier that he did what he did in his 2nd start while tinkering a bit (as you'll read in the article)
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:13 am

To me, based on Pomeranz's performance the past two months in spring training and to start the season, he is the unquestionable #1 prospect in the organization. It was tough to consider him for that spot in the offseason because he had only pitched in a handful of Instructional League games last year....but he is the real deal. He's left-handed with FOR potential, which easily trumps Chisenhall/Kipnis and even Alex White. Nothing against those guys either as they are all very good players/prospects, but to me Pomeranz is just on a completely different level.

Hearing a lot of "promote him now" stuff with Pomeranz. First off, you can't promote a guy when there is no spot available. Who you gonna bump from a crowded/loaded rotation in Akron with Packer, Adams, Gardner, Barnes and De La Cruz? All five of those guys are legit starting pitching prospects and important to the organization. Then in Columbus they have 5-6 arms there. So the crowd at the top I think will keep Pomeranz in Kinston for awhile, at lease until injuries/callups/performance start to affect things in the upper levels. I also don't think it would harm anything to keep Pomeranz in Kinston for 2-3 months and get 10-12 starts there. He's still likely to pitch in Akron for a majority of the season, just may not get there until late May or mid-June.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby petes999 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:16 am

I hope after the start of this year that the debate of Pom and Sale is a done deal .... even if they have pitched at different levels causing their stats to be skewed in comparison. Do we really need Sale? We need FOR starters especially with Hagadone going to reliever (good start so far). Yet, with Carmona, Carrasco and Masterson having good starts... we have time to bring the next line of White, Pom, Knapp, and others up ... Just remember, though, a few years ago, we were looking forward to a wave of starters in 2012 that would include Carmona, Miller, Lofgren, Rondon and De La Cruz ... You need 5-6 FOR starters and maybe 2 work out and maybe 1 or 2 will become relievers (Miller and Rondon). So draft FOR starters and they can slide to relievers but only a few draft choices pegged as relievers can become a starter (maybe Adams).

Also, see from BA Q&A
Stan (Chicago, IL): Whats the word on Pomeranz? He is developing that change to be a 3 pitch guy. And a 92 Lhp is hard to come by...a top of the rotation guy?

Jim Callis: Even without a great changeup, he has the fastball and curveball to be a frontline starter. There aren't many lefties who can match that 1-2 punch.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:27 pm

We really have an imbalance of pitching in the organization. Pom is not learning a thing in A ball, but there are no openings at Akron.

This is a good problem to have, but not forever. Somebody once said having depth in your pitching was like having extra cash, everybody will talk to you.
I think the time has come to trade some pitching for an organizational position of need, (1B, power OF). I would be open to trading any SP at Akron, depending who we get back.

Remember, the quicker Pom gets experience in MLB, the quicker the Indians become a contender.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:24 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:We really have an imbalance of pitching in the organization. Pom is not learning a thing in A ball, but there are no openings at Akron.

This is a good problem to have, but not forever. Somebody once said having depth in your pitching was like having extra cash, everybody will talk to you.
I think the time has come to trade some pitching for an organizational position of need, (1B, power OF). I would be open to trading any SP at Akron, depending who we get back.

Remember, the quicker Pom gets experience in MLB, the quicker the Indians become a contender.


Disagree 100% here. Guy is basically a pro rookie. He is still learning a ton even at Kinston. Maybe not how to get great hitters out, but still learning.


And that last statement should come with an asterisk. You rush him too soon and you could damage him forever. Plus, we'll be even better contenders if a few of those AA arms ahead of him pan out too.


I agree with the middle...though would say the 2nd week of the season is too early to be talking trade. Many teams are still figuring out what teams they have and sorting through their own minor league issues. Come Memorial Day though he is hopefully in Akron
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:29 pm

I found an interview with him that must have happened after the year was over because he got questioned on the instructional leauge but they asked him what pitches he was comfertable throwing every game and he said a 4 seam and 2 seam fast ball with a circle change and 12-6 curve tha has a slurve type break off at the end
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby petes999 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:19 pm

Pom was the #1 prospect for this week's BA hot list....

From BA "In his first two starts, we've seen the 92-93 mph fastball—he used it almost exclusively to shut down Winston-Salem in his first start. And we've seen the curveball—he picked up four of his eight strikeouts against Wilmington with the breaking ball."
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:31 pm

indianinkslinger wrote: I wouldn't want to mess with anything that would endanger his two plus pitches but he looks to be a natural candidate for a split. :pleasantry:


I could see a split with him too.....but personally have felt since last winter when I first started watching him that the cutter would be a perfect pitch for him. He just reminds me so much of a young Cliff Lee. That fastball and amazing curve. Lee started working on that cutter in A-ball and it's become the pitch that's really taken him to elite levels. Truely think if Pomeranz can be every bit as good as Lee :drinks:
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:05 am

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote: I wouldn't want to mess with anything that would endanger his two plus pitches but he looks to be a natural candidate for a split. :pleasantry:


I could see a split with him too.....but personally have felt since last winter when I first started watching him that the cutter would be a perfect pitch for him. He just reminds me so much of a young Cliff Lee. That fastball and amazing curve. Lee started working on that cutter in A-ball and it's become the pitch that's really taken him to elite
levels. Truely think if Pomeranz can be every bit as good as Lee :drinks:


I think that's a good assessment. I've thought the same myself. Pomeranz is able to pitch up in the strike zone despite overpowering velocity, much like Cliff Lee. The both pitch with good leverage. Cliff Lee is an ace type pitcher, and I think Pomeranz is going to have to improve a lot to get to that level though. I have been very supportive of the Pomeranz selection b/c I thought he was a very nice prospect since I first saw him as a sophomore in college in the NCAA tournament, but I never really thought he'd be a #1. Cliff Lee is an ace b/c not only does he have good pitches, but his control is downright outstanding, which is something Pomeranz has yet to demonstrate on a consistent basis (he struggled with Ole Miss on this last year). Lee walked 18 batters in 214 innings last year. Since 2008, he's allowed 1.3 walks per 9 IP. That's amazing.

I do agree with you on the comparison, though, and your assessment of Pomeranz' pitches.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:58 am

The difference between Pomeranz and Lee is velocity. Pom throws harder than Lee ever did which leads me to think a change-up with good seperation would put him over the top. I think the cutter would be more beneficial to a guy like Huff.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ClevBuck » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:07 pm

Chip Davis wrote:The difference between Pomeranz and Lee is velocity. Pom throws harder than Lee ever did which leads me to think a change-up with good seperation would put him over the top. I think the cutter would be more beneficial to a guy like Huff.

Um what? Lee sat in the 90-93 range like Pomeranz does and did last year. Just because he can hit above 96 here and there doesn't mean he automatically throws harder when he doesn't do it all game
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:40 pm

ClevBuck wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:The difference between Pomeranz and Lee is velocity. Pom throws harder than Lee ever did which leads me to think a change-up with good seperation would put him over the top. I think the cutter would be more beneficial to a guy like Huff.

Um what? Lee sat in the 90-93 range like Pomeranz does and did last year. Just because he can hit above 96 here and there doesn't mean he automatically throws harder when he doesn't do it all game


I second that. Pomeranz is not a flame thrower. When I saw him in college, he comfortably sat 90-92. I understand the velo is up a little since turning pro, though, so perhpas 91-93 is comfort level. FanGraphs notes Lee's average fastball velocity is 91 the last few years; quite comparable. If you go to see Pomeranz and expect to see 94-96 MPH consistently, you're going to leave disappointed. That's not how he throws, and frankly he doesn't really need those velocities b/c the downhill plane he gets on his fastball is very good.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:43 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:I think that's a good assessment. I've thought the same myself. Pomeranz is able to pitch up in the strike zone despite overpowering velocity, much like Cliff Lee. The both pitch with good leverage. Cliff Lee is an ace type pitcher, and I think Pomeranz is going to have to improve a lot to get to that level though. I have been very supportive of the Pomeranz selection b/c I thought he was a very nice prospect since I first saw him as a sophomore in college in the NCAA tournament, but I never really thought he'd be a #1. Cliff Lee is an ace b/c not only does he have good pitches, but his control is downright outstanding, which is something Pomeranz has yet to demonstrate on a consistent basis (he struggled with Ole Miss on this last year). Lee walked 18 batters in 214 innings last year. Since 2008, he's allowed 1.3 walks per 9 IP. That's amazing.

I do agree with you on the comparison, though, and your assessment of Pomeranz' pitches.


I agree, I'm being very optimistic with a Lee comp....However, Lee was not projected as an Ace when he was in A-ball. Lee had some control issues of his own back then (36 walks in 44 innings in his debut, then 46 in 109 in his full season debut). In 2000 (Lee's last year at Arkansas before being drafted) he was only 4-3 with a 4.45 ERA in only 65 innings (though did have 77 K's in those 65 innings). Pom looked way more likely to become an Ace than Lee did coming out of college.

Lee was a 2-3 guy best case scenario when he was in the low minors. Wasn't til he started working on that cutter, then learned some better control that Lee eventually developed into the Ace he is today (and getting there had some major ups and downs).

I'm not sure if Pom ever gets the control that Lee has now....I agree, the last couple years have been amazing. I do think Pom can get it down to the low 2's though and still become an Ace.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:55 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:I think that's a good assessment. I've thought the same myself. Pomeranz is able to pitch up in the strike zone despite overpowering velocity, much like Cliff Lee. The both pitch with good leverage. Cliff Lee is an ace type pitcher, and I think Pomeranz is going to have to improve a lot to get to that level though. I have been very supportive of the Pomeranz selection b/c I thought he was a very nice prospect since I first saw him as a sophomore in college in the NCAA tournament, but I never really thought he'd be a #1. Cliff Lee is an ace b/c not only does he have good pitches, but his control is downright outstanding, which is something Pomeranz has yet to demonstrate on a consistent basis (he struggled with Ole Miss on this last year). Lee walked 18 batters in 214 innings last year. Since 2008, he's allowed 1.3 walks per 9 IP. That's amazing.

I do agree with you on the comparison, though, and your assessment of Pomeranz' pitches.


I agree, I'm being very optimistic with a Lee comp....However, Lee was not projected as an Ace when he was in A-ball. Lee had some control issues of his own back then (36 walks in 44 innings in his debut, then 46 in 109 in his full season debut). In 2000 (Lee's last year at Arkansas before being drafted) he was only 4-3 with a 4.45 ERA in only 65 innings (though did have 77 K's in those 65 innings). Pom looked way more likely to become an Ace than Lee did coming out of college.

Lee was a 2-3 guy best case scenario when he was in the low minors. Wasn't til he started working on that cutter, then learned some better control that Lee eventually developed into the Ace he is today (and getting there had some major ups and downs).

I'm not sure if Pom ever gets the control that Lee has now....I agree, the last couple years have been amazing. I do think Pom can get it down to the low 2's though and still become an Ace.



Could he be lee, sure. Will he be, I see a less than 10% chance. Lee became great when he gained Maddux like control. Pom's biggest knock is the control issues, I hope your right. I just don't think he can go from control problems to pinpoint
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ironmike » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:08 am

Tony, regarding Pomeranz your post doesn't make sense. If he is indeed the best prospect in the system the hell with these other guys. Get Pomeranz in position (Double A) as soon as the weather breaks and challenge him. We are going to need this kid sooner than later if we continue to play good baseball and contend this year.

If he's that darn good and special get him 10-12 starts at AKRON and a half dozen in Cbus and have him ready for the stretch run in Cleveland this year.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:43 am

ironmike wrote:Tony, regarding Pomeranz your post doesn't make sense. If he is indeed the best prospect in the system the hell with these other guys. Get Pomeranz in position (Double A) as soon as the weather breaks and challenge him. We are going to need this kid sooner than later if we continue to play good baseball and contend this year.

If he's that darn good and special get him 10-12 starts at AKRON and a half dozen in Cbus and have him ready for the stretch run in Cleveland this year.


Once again, you show you have no concept of how to handle a prospect... While some of this I don't disagree with, you still have to watch his workload and how fast you progress him. IMO, around late May/early June, call him up to Akron and let him finish his season off there. If he is truly lights out, maybe send him for 2-3 starts in C-Bus before being shut down for the year, but that's about it. But I certainly wouldn't push him to Cleveland this year or have any expectation to.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Edible14 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:58 am

ironmike wrote:Tony, regarding Pomeranz your post doesn't make sense. If he is indeed the best prospect in the system the hell with these other guys. Get Pomeranz in position (Double A) as soon as the weather breaks and challenge him. We are going to need this kid sooner than later if we continue to play good baseball and contend this year.

If he's that darn good and special get him 10-12 starts at AKRON and a half dozen in Cbus and have him ready for the stretch run in Cleveland this year.


He's got the potential to be that good. But until he develops his change into a workable major league pitch he'd be destroyed at the major league level long-term. If you want to develop an ace, you'd also be best served by having him develop a 4th pitch, letting him refine his command and mechanics and get acclimated to throwing a full season's worth of innings (remember, this is his first year out of college, and he's never had this workload before). There's good reason to keep a guy that good in the minors for a bit, and it's not because of club control reasons.

He should be in Akron shortly, though. I'd be surprised if he's not up in AA by the end of May.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:33 am

ironmike wrote:Tony, regarding Pomeranz your post doesn't make sense. If he is indeed the best prospect in the system the hell with these other guys. Get Pomeranz in position (Double A) as soon as the weather breaks and challenge him. We are going to need this kid sooner than later if we continue to play good baseball and contend this year.

If he's that darn good and special get him 10-12 starts at AKRON and a half dozen in Cbus and have him ready for the stretch run in Cleveland this year.


No way. No reason to rush the kid, and how you ruin pitching prospects. He has the goods to be a very good major league pitcher, but the Indians are not desperate for starting pitching. If that were the case I would agree with you to push him through. But the Indians have a lot of starting depth where there should be no reason to push Pomeranz through until sometime in 2013 if need be.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ironmike » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:21 am

Tony, agree ... pushing a player through the system and challenging him are two different things. All teams can always use better starting pitching.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:17 pm

ironmike wrote:Tony, agree ... pushing a player through the system and challenging him are two different things. All teams can always use better starting pitching.


He will get challenged. It's only been two starts....kid needs to settle into Kinston another 3-4 starts and then reassess from there. Have a good feeling he will be promoted by late May or early June (WHite was promoted 5/21 last year).
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:31 pm

jellis wrote:Could he be lee, sure. Will he be, I see a less than 10% chance. Lee became great when he gained Maddux like control. Pom's biggest knock is the control issues, I hope your right. I just don't think he can go from control problems to pinpoint


I agree with your first part wholeheartedly. To me his ceiling is Lee....will he get there, we'll see.

My point is though, that Lee had just as bad if not worse control than Pom when he was in school. Cliff Lee currently holds the record for most career walks (94) and wild pitches (18) at Meridian Community College (where he pitched for 2 years before going to Arkansas). He did strike out 114 in a season there (2nd most in school history).

99% of the time I'd agree with your last statement too....but then there's Cliff Lee as proof you can go from control problems to pinpoint.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:51 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:Could he be lee, sure. Will he be, I see a less than 10% chance. Lee became great when he gained Maddux like control. Pom's biggest knock is the control issues, I hope your right. I just don't think he can go from control problems to pinpoint


I agree with your first part wholeheartedly. To me his ceiling is Lee....will he get there, we'll see.

My point is though, that Lee had just as bad if not worse control than Pom when he was in school. Cliff Lee currently holds the record for most career walks (94) and wild pitches (18) at Meridian Community College (where he pitched for 2 years before going to Arkansas). He did strike out 114 in a season there (2nd most in school history).

99% of the time I'd agree with your last statement too....but then there's Cliff Lee as proof you can go from control problems to pinpoint.



I agree, not a likely outcome, but it is possible. I think if he can gain Lee like control, then he would be even better than Lee. I think he has better natural stuff.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:52 pm

ironmike wrote:Tony, agree ... pushing a player through the system and challenging him are two different things. All teams can always use better starting pitching.


Talent doesnt mean ready. He has a great arm and nice movement on his pitches. But he lacks pitches he currently has 2 solid pitches. It is rushing to call a guy up who isnt developed. He won't magically develop a curve ball just because he got to AA, this isn't a video game
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby OhioBaseball » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:33 pm

I havent seen him as a pro, but Pomeranz' delivery in college was long. One of the criticisms you could have had of him last spring as a draft prospect was that he can have difficulty controlling the run game b/c of a slow delivery. I think this is something that can be corrected, however. These guys are in the minor leagues for various reasons. They've got to work on stuff. There's no need to rush Pomeranz.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:02 am

OhioBaseball wrote:I havent seen him as a pro, but Pomeranz' delivery in college was long. One of the criticisms you could have had of him last spring as a draft prospect was that he can have difficulty controlling the run game b/c of a slow delivery. I think this is something that can be corrected, however. These guys are in the minor leagues for various reasons. They've got to work on stuff. There's no need to rush Pomeranz.

In the 4 or 5 games I saw Pomeranz in college his problems controlling the running game were discussed quite a bit. Ex-Brave Brian Jordan said that Pomeranz needed a lot of work in that area, and Jordan knows how to steal a base. Jordan was really high on Pomeranz. Said he'd be a great pro.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:07 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:I havent seen him as a pro, but Pomeranz' delivery in college was long. One of the criticisms you could have had of him last spring as a draft prospect was that he can have difficulty controlling the run game b/c of a slow delivery. I think this is something that can be corrected, however. These guys are in the minor leagues for various reasons. They've got to work on stuff. There's no need to rush Pomeranz.

In the 4 or 5 games I saw Pomeranz in college his problems controlling the running game were discussed quite a bit. Ex-Brave Brian Jordan said that Pomeranz needed a lot of work in that area, and Jordan knows how to steal a base. Jordan was really high on Pomeranz. Said he'd be a great pro.

He is actually a little better now than he was in HS. He was dreadfully slow to the plate in HS but there wasn't a lot of traffic on the bases to steal.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:37 pm

He is mortal.

4 IP 2 H 3 R 3 ER 3 BB 5 SO 1 Wild Pitch 2 Groundoutss 4 Flyouts

Time to hit the panic button?

:crazy:
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby jellis » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:15 pm

" Performance and how fast a player moves are somewhat connected, but it's not a completely symbiotic relationship. A perfect example is Drew Pomeranz, the Cleveland Indians' top pitching prospect and the fifth overall pick in the 2010 draft. In his first three professional starts for High-A Kinston, the left-hander has struck out 22 while allowing just six hits over 15 innings. That is certainly a dominant statistical performance and one that has led to the unavoidable questions about when he'll move up. That's understandable considering the numbers, but this is one of those times when knowing how a player is doing something is far more important that what he's actually doing.

Armed with a fastball and curveball that are both plus (and often even better) pitches, Pomeranz is carving up Carolina League hitters, but he's rarely using his changeup, which is easily his least effective offering and therefore the pitch that needs the most development. Allowing him to dominate for a while with just the fastball/curve combination is a good move for his confidence, but it doesn't mean he's ready for Double-A. He will not end up there until the third pitch in his arsenal is not only better, but a more frequent part of his sequencing. He looks like he's ready to move up based on the box scores, but the way he's doing it isn't going to get him to the big leagues. "

From Kevin Goldstein's ESPN article, pretty dead on for those wondering why Pomeranz isnt in Cleveland yet
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:12 am

Bravo on Goldstein. Couldn't say it any better.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby ironmike » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:04 am

Get him to Double A by mid-May and require him to use all three pitches ... even if the manager has to call the pitches from the dugout.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby JayAre » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:24 am

Yeah, get him to magically pick up an effective changeup in the next three weeks. What's the holdup?

Seriously, it's nice to have Drew Pomeranz in your back pocket, but we've got about a half dozen guys I wouldn't mind seeing us run out there to show what they're made of first. No need to rush Drew; lots of guys ahead of him on the curve are pitching well. It's a nice problem to have.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:43 am

One of the most effective pitches in MLB is the Johan Santana change up. If you recall, Santana was an odd Rule V pick by the Marlins (the oddity was that the Twins had the first pick, but knew the Marlins, with the second pick, wanted Jarod Camp, so the they made a deal where the Twins picked Camp & the Marlins picked Johan. After the draft, the Twins sent Camp to the Marlins who sent Johan to the twins with $ 50K, the claiming fee (?), in the event the Twins later decided to return Johan back to the Astros, which essentially meant the Twins got Santana for free)
The Twins used a very smart strategy for Johan to develop his amazing circle change. After Johan had been in the Majors for two years, he was sent to the minors where he was required by then pitching coach Mike Cuellar (former Baltimore Orioles Star) to throw an inordinate number of change ups.. it's been documented that Johan was required to throw nothing but change ups during his starts.. while that's not exactly true, it shows that if a pitcher is REQUIRED to throw a specific pitch, regardless of the results, they are forced to learn how to be effective. There is no other pitcher of Santana's status (today) that matches this kind of story.. BTW.. Johan spent two months in the minors during this episode of his career. So it may take more than three weeks, but, not more than two months..maybe...

Pomeranz will need that change up... just like Santana did and does. The lesson learned for this story: don't look at just the results.. the means to the end made Santana the great pitcher that he is.. the means to the end, Pomeranz developing an effective change up, may be what's "Next" for the Indians top prospect....
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby JayAre » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:57 am

Santana's change was (is?) a thing of beauty, definitely, but he didn't have Drew's curve. An average changeup could put Pomeranz in the middle of a Major League rotation; it's a crucial part of his development. Some guys might be able to develop a decent change in a couple months, but it might take others a couple years. Or there might not be a changeup in that arm no matter how many times he throws it. Patience is definitely key with Pomeranz; those who peg him as a big leaguer by 2012 are probably doing him a disservice. He'd likely be able to survive on 2.5 pitches, but that third pitch needs some robust development before he can become an ace. For now I don't care if he's pitching in Akron, or against high schoolers, work on that changeup.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:31 am

Drew's fastball-changeup combo is so good that all he needs is an average changeup. We'd all love it if he develops that change into an effective plus offering...but if he can develop it into a consistently average pitch he will be very effective. I don't believe that Sabathia/Lee have three plus pitches. All about fastball command and having at least two plus pitches to be a good MLB pitcher.
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Re: Pomeranz

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:15 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Drew's fastball-changeup combo is so good that all he needs is an average changeup. We'd all love it if he develops that change into an effective plus offering...but if he can develop it into a consistently average pitch he will be very effective. I don't believe that Sabathia/Lee have three plus pitches. All about fastball command and having at least two plus pitches to be a good MLB pitcher.

Completely agree, great one. Wouldn't you consider both CC and Lee to be four pitch pitchers at this time? Neither came out of the minors that way but I would feel comfortable in suggesting that CC has two plus pitches and two above average with Lee somewhat less but better at changing eye level of each. Just a little to ease the recovery time while thinking. Glad to hear all went well. :friends:
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