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Cliff Lee in the WBC??

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Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:42 am

Is anyone else cringing at the thought of Cliff Lee pitching in the WBC this year? Was reading an article on yahoosports, talkign about all the players that are declining to play (incluing CC).....and they mentioned Cliff Lee as a guy that may play.

Please, please tell me the Indians will step in and talk him out of it should he even be considering it. That's just what we need from a guy who's twice pulled muscles in spring training, go start throwing at game speeds and intensities in March after throwing nearly 80 more innings in 2008 than in 2007.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby npc29 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:47 pm

Definitely not a fan of ANY pitcher of ours going to this game. I also hope Victor is not allowed to go, that's the last thing we need.

Grady is really the only one I don't mind going. I think he can handle it.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:01 pm

Yeah I don't think we'll let victor go this year.....at least I hope not.....
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:15 pm

I want our players to go play in the WBC. What is different playing in the WBC that is different in Goodyear? Is the water different? Cause I see no greater chance at injury or fatigue playing in the WBC than playing in Goodyear. Same risk either way if you ask me as the use of the players will be monitored just as much as it is in spring training. The benefit of the WBC of course being playing in a much more intense environment.

The Indians SHOULD send their players there if you ask me. Heck, the entire team if they could. They need that kick in the pants so they don't oversleep and miss the start of the season like in past years.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TheWord » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:35 pm

I agree with Tony, especially position players.

It gives them regular season and even playoff atmosphere that allows them to go into the season at the top of their game.

The fatigue is nothing that can't be subdued by a game off here or there.

Pitchers would probably be seeing the same workload in Goodyear as well.

It's the same deal with the Olympics and the NBA, LeBron played for his country this offseason and came back to Cleveland with a rejuvenated attitude which is paying dividends this season.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:40 pm

Difference is the coach and staff aren't employed by the Indians. They say they won't push any player but how can you be certain? They may not recognize a sign of fatigue or something that the Indians staff would in one of their own players.

The chance of injury is much great in the WBC than spring training for this reason (among others). Not saying that there's no chance of getting hurt in ST, but it's greater in the WBC.


The 'much more intense environment' is the exact reason not to send certain players. They'll get reved up and hurt their arms or pull an oblique. Players (especially pitchers) need to ease into things. They do have pitch counts in the WBC....but it's not the same as having a trainer and several coaches monitoring you like it'll be in Goodyear.



Do you think it's a coincidence that most pitchers that threw for the US in the WBC have been greatly hindered? Willis has never been the same. Peavy saw his ERA jump way up that year as well.

Other than Victor, I'd be fine with any of our hitters going.....but not our starting pitchers. The risk is far to great.

And in the US, the WBC isn't anything special. I didn't even really watch it last time cause it's pretty meaningless. I mean I wanted the US to win....but I'd rather see them lose every single time for just one Indians WS victory.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:06 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Difference is the coach and staff aren't employed by the Indians. They say they won't push any player but how can you be certain? They may not recognize a sign of fatigue or something that the Indians staff would in one of their own players.

The chance of injury is much great in the WBC than spring training for this reason (among others). Not saying that there's no chance of getting hurt in ST, but it's greater in the WBC.


Not true. Teams have agreements set in place on how to use their players.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Difference is the coach and staff aren't employed by the Indians. They say they won't push any player but how can you be certain? They may not recognize a sign of fatigue or something that the Indians staff would in one of their own players.

The chance of injury is much great in the WBC than spring training for this reason (among others). Not saying that there's no chance of getting hurt in ST, but it's greater in the WBC.


Not true. Teams have agreements set in place on how to use their players.


There are arrangements.....but that means nothing. Do they have arrangements on how to use a player if something looks off during a game? No, it's up to the manager at that point.


And there's still the problem with the WBC coaches and staff not picking up something little that could really hurt a pitcher. You can say only allow a pitcher to throw so many pitches, but without monitoring how the pitcher is handling that workload will really hurt.

At Goodyear the Tribe can alter how they use a pitcher on the spot if they see something they don't like. The same isn't (and won't) be true for pitchers in the WBC.

There's a reason most big name pitchers are turning down invites to the WBC. They don't like the effect it has on them going into the season. They'd prefer to just use spring training to get ready. CC, Webb, Hamels, Beckett, and Burnett have all turned down invites to play for the US....and that's just so far.

Other will likely be held back by the teams (the previous guys declined on their own) as well.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:06 pm

Trust me, these teams have it worked out to the exact number of pitches and number of days they are to throw. The WBC teams have to comply with this. Yes, there is the possibility that a team could miss something with a player's mechanics being off, but the clubs do send reps to all WBC teams to watch their players for these issues that may come up. It is no big deal really, and playing in the WBC is no more a risk for injury than playing in the Grapefruit or Cactus Leagues.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:27 am

I do trust you that the teams have worked out the number of pitches and number of days they are to throw, but it's still not even close to the same as working out everyday with the training staff in ST.

You're far too naive to think that the WBC has no more risk than playing in string training....
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby endlesssleeper » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:05 pm

Honestly, Hermie? Tony does this for a LIVING; know when to give in.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:34 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Honestly, Hermie? Tony does this for a LIVING; know when to give in.


I wish it was for a living. :s_yes Good small side job though that actually takes up more time than my regular full time job. :s_rofl

By the way, here is a comment from Atkins on how Stevens would be handled in the Olympics....sort of the same thing:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... ffalo.html

On the benefits of playing in the Olympics: "I'll be quite frank, it is close. There is a huge benefit for them to be a part of our organization on a daily basis and amongst our coordinators and staff members and playing every day minus the travel to Beijing and different areas they have to go to and prepare to play in the Olympics. But, the positives are that when the lights come on and they are playing for a Gold Medal potentially, we can't create that level of intensity or competition in the minor leagues. There are pluses and minuses, and when it is all said and done you just think about the experience for the individual and realize that it is once in a lifetime."

On Jeff Stevens use in the Olympics: "Absolutely. We have much more say than you would think. We are extremely involved in that, and we have already spoken to [manager] Davey Johnson and [pitching coach] Marcel Lachemann about their usage. We have it down to the at bats and the innings. Stevens is going to be their closer and will see essentially anywhere from about eight to twelve innings depending on their success, but we know exactly how he is going to be used. There are parameters in place that he can't be of use, but those guys are pros and been around the block. They understand the big picture and would never put a player in a harmful situation."
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TheWord » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:19 pm

You can give him all the facts you want, it's not going to deter him from his..."opinion."

Sometimes ya gotta know when to let it go and live to fight another day...
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:28 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Honestly, Hermie? Tony does this for a LIVING; know when to give in.


And ML baseball players play baseball for a LIVING...yet very few want to risk goign to the WBC....hmm....intersting......


There's also a difference between the WBC and Olympics....the Olympics happened near the end of the season, players were all loose and extended, unlike what they'll be in March.


I'm all for hitters (minus Martinez) going to it and playing.....but not pitchers.

Fernando Cabrera had a bright future ahead of him. Had a great season in Cleveland in 2005 (1.47 ERA and 1.14 WHIP in 30 innings)....pitched in the WBC in March of 2006 then came out and got destroyed. Continued into 2007 and has never recovered.

Willis hasn't been the same pitcher since either (2006 was ok for him....but game up 10 more HRs than before).

Colon's career has taken a nose-dive since the WBC as well.

More pitchers were hurt by it than helped......maybe it was all just a 'coincidence'.....but I don't buy that.....
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:29 pm

TheWord wrote:You can give him all the facts you want, it's not going to deter him from his..."opinion."

Sometimes ya gotta know when to let it go and live to fight another day...


What 'facts' have been given? :s_coffee
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:42 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
endlesssleeper wrote:Honestly, Hermie? Tony does this for a LIVING; know when to give in.


And ML baseball players play baseball for a LIVING...yet very few want to risk goign to the WBC....hmm....intersting......


There's also a difference between the WBC and Olympics....the Olympics happened near the end of the season, players were all loose and extended, unlike what they'll be in March.


I'm all for hitters (minus Martinez) going to it and playing.....but not pitchers.

Fernando Cabrera had a bright future ahead of him. Had a great season in Cleveland in 2005 (1.47 ERA and 1.14 WHIP in 30 innings)....pitched in the WBC in March of 2006 then came out and got destroyed. Continued into 2007 and has never recovered.

Willis hasn't been the same pitcher since either (2006 was ok for him....but game up 10 more HRs than before).

Colon's career has taken a nose-dive since the WBC as well.

More pitchers were hurt by it than helped......maybe it was all just a 'coincidence'.....but I don't buy that.....


and even more pitchers have been perfectly fine since then. It's just a coincidence.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:54 pm

Really? Like who?


Every year since 2004 Peavy has had an ERA under 3......except for 2006 after pitching in the WBC....that year it was 4.08.


I'd like to see how many starting ML pitcher in the WBC that had a good 2006 season....


Erik Bedard had a good 2006 season....but has battled injuries that year, in 2007, and 2008.....



And some more guys that struggled.....Betancourt was off in 2006 (down from 2005) then came back in 2007. Freddy Garcia saw his ERA jump up about .7 in 2006 then blew out his arm in 2007...could be totally unrelated i suppose.....

Francisco Rodriguez had a very good 2006....but every since has seen his fastball velocity drop 2 mph.....again, suppose it could be totally unrelated.....

Huston Street is another guy that's seen his stuff tail off since 2006 when he pitched in the WBC.


Only guy I can tell that didn't have any effects from it was Johan Santana.....

Carlos Zambrano didn't have too much....but even he pitched less and saw some decline in his stuff at the beginning of the year.


But the majority of pitchers were hurt by it more than they were helped.....we'll see how things go this time around though I suppose.....


I'm sure the Mets will push to keep their players home after Victor Zambrano's fall.....
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:17 pm

you say they're hurt, because you feel there's a direct effect between the WBC and pitchers having down/injured years ever since then. Freddie Garcia had to have shoulder surgery a little while back -- is that because of the WBC, or simply because of the wear and tear on his arm during his career? Injuries happen, especially with pitchers and you can't prove there's a correlation between the WBC and injuries down the road. Not yet anyway.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TheWord » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:32 pm

Huston Street had his 2nd best statistical year, his best year was the year AFTER the WBC in which he put up a WHIP under 1. Hardly what I would call negatively effected by pitching in the WBC.

Brian Fuentes (best year), Todd Jones (2nd best year), Joe Nathan (2nd best year), Dan Wheeler (2nd best year), Scot Shields (2nd best year) all seemed to be unaffected by playing in the WBC, which is about half the roster. That roster also includes Roger Clemens, Gary Majewski, Al Leiter and Mike Timlin who were in the twilight of their career.

Guys like Dontrelle Willis, Chad Cordero, and Brad Lidge were negatively affected. You can make a case that Lidge had already been effected by giving up a 600 foot home run to Pujols the previous October. Willis only saw a slight decline in his numbers, but has been rapidly declining ever since.

Jair Jurrjens established himself as a prospect with his showing for the Netherlands, and has been on the upswing ever since.

You mentioned Eric Bedard, yet fail to mention Jeff Francis, who pitched on the same team and had his best statistical year.

Manny Corpas established himself as well and improved, eventually making it to Colorado and playing a huge role in their magical run, as well as Pedro Feliciano establishing himself for the Puerto Rican team.



Lets also not forget it was the FIRST WBC, and teams are much more conscious of the fact that this is their spring training. As Tony said, reps are going to be traveling with them and they will most certainly be on a pitch count that WILL be strictly followed.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:43 pm

TheWord wrote:Huston Street had his 2nd best statistical year, his best year was the year AFTER the WBC in which he put up a WHIP under 1. Hardly what I would call negatively effected by pitching in the WBC.

Brian Fuentes (best year), Todd Jones (2nd best year), Joe Nathan (2nd best year), Dan Wheeler (2nd best year), Scot Shields (2nd best year) all seemed to be unaffected by playing in the WBC, which is about half the roster. That roster also includes Roger Clemens, Gary Majewski, Al Leiter and Mike Timlin who were in the twilight of their career.

Guys like Dontrelle Willis, Chad Cordero, and Brad Lidge were negatively affected. You can make a case that Lidge had already been effected by giving up a 600 foot home run to Pujols the previous October. Willis only saw a slight decline in his numbers, but has been rapidly declining ever since.

Jair Jurrjens established himself as a prospect with his showing for the Netherlands, and has been on the upswing ever since.

You mentioned Eric Bedard, yet fail to mention Jeff Francis, who pitched on the same team and had his best statistical year.

Manny Corpas established himself as well and improved, eventually making it to Colorado and playing a huge role in their magical run, as well as Pedro Feliciano establishing himself for the Puerto Rican team.



Lets also not forget it was the FIRST WBC, and teams are much more conscious of the fact that this is their spring training. As Tony said, reps are going to be traveling with them and they will most certainly be on a pitch count that WILL be strictly followed.


Street's ERA doubled after pitching in the WBC....and it wasn't his second best statiscal year....was his worse til this past year. Street also was on the DL in 2007....

And nearly every guy you just mentioned was a reliever. Clemens had a great 2006.....but also didn't start pitching til July cause he took half a year off to 'retire', then came back. Big differnce there. Al Leiter also never pitched in the MLs again....was on as a backup since so many guys backed out (including CC).


Again, how many STARTERS weren't hurt by the WBC? Again, it's basically Carlos Zambrano and Johan Santana (and maybe include Bedard).

Francis had a decent year in 2006.....ERA over 4 though still....though in Colorado that's decent I suppose. But he had 5 starts in April that year and he was 0-2 with a 4.50 ERA and had 18 BBs vs only 26 K's. Didn't come out of the gate very strong.....

Kelvim Escobar had a good 2006....could include him as well. But point still remains, that most STARTERS struggled in 2006 or got off to very slow starts.

Are you telling me you want to risk sending Cliff Lee to it this year???

I for one hope he's in Goodyear with the rest of the Tribe starters on March 5th and not playing for team USA......but I guess that's just me.....


There is a pitch limit....but there was one last time as well....didn't help many guys though....
Last edited by Hermie13 on Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TheWord » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:50 pm

No more of a risk than it would be to have him in Goodyear.

The up and down nature of pitchers in the WBC as opposed to pitchers in spring training is more than likely no different. Pitchers are up and down, that is there nature.

EDIT: You are right on Street, it was his 3rd best year. Although his numbers were NOT that far off. His WHIP in 2006 was only a mere .08 off his total from the previous season. Hardly what would be considered a corollary to him pitching in the WBC.

You'd be splitting hairs trying to make an argument that the extra 8 one hundreths of a WHIP rating is a direct result of the WBC.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby jhonny » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:45 pm

It's notable and important that a lot of teams do not want their pitchers to participate in the WBC, even if Tony does. It's a question about effort and preparing to pitch for six months or playing for right now. Spring training is usually not a competitive exercise. It's a bit naive to think throwing that type of wrench into the machine would only have a positive effect. It's like stretching before a game versus playing in another game. How can you possibly equate the two?
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:47 am

TheWord wrote:No more of a risk than it would be to have him in Goodyear.

The up and down nature of pitchers in the WBC as opposed to pitchers in spring training is more than likely no different. Pitchers are up and down, that is there nature.

EDIT: You are right on Street, it was his 3rd best year. Although his numbers were NOT that far off. His WHIP in 2006 was only a mere .08 off his total from the previous season. Hardly what would be considered a corollary to him pitching in the WBC.

You'd be splitting hairs trying to make an argument that the extra 8 one hundreths of a WHIP rating is a direct result of the WBC.



Well I disagree.....and so do most players, coaches, and baseball personnel....hence why so many are declining to go.

Street's drop wasn't significant....but AGAIN, he's a reliever, it's the starters that saw the biggest impact. Relievers only go about 1 inning if that in the WBC...the same as they'd do in ST. There's still a bigger risk for them as well, but not as much as for a starter.


Like I said, we'll see how things go this time around. To me (and nearly all pitchers it seems) it's just a risk not worth taking.....
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby TheWord » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:33 pm

If you approach it the right way, and teams set standards for how much they can do along with sending representatives to make sure they are not being over exerted, that sentiment will change IMO.
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Re: Cliff Lee in the WBC??

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:46 pm

TheWord wrote:If you approach it the right way, and teams set standards for how much they can do along with sending representatives to make sure they are not being over exerted, that sentiment will change IMO.


The risk will still be greater at the WBC than at ST....

And I don't see things changing anytime soon with players not wanting to play for fear of injury....but we'll see..
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