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Garko to Baltimore

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Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:08 am

Hoynes reports this rumor today. Interesting if it is ture. Looking at their ML roster there isn't anyone I would see as a #3 starter even if we threw in a prospect. Now, if we are somehow going to do a trade where we get Roberts, then I do it in a heartbeat. Except that he may go to 20 HR and .290 I think Garko may have posted his career average numbers last year. He might be worse but I can't see him getting a lot better than .290/.460/.350/.810. Plus there is his defense which is not a plus and never will be.

Imagine the howling that would go on if we did an Adam Miller and Garko for Jeremy Guthrie trade. Interestingly, I would object to that on basic grounds but it isn't like it wouldn't make sense for the next 2-3 years or so.

For a wild idea, how about this:

We get:

Guthrie
Roberts
Mora

Baltimore gets:

Garko
Santana
A. Cabrera
Miller
Huff
J. Lewis
Stevens
Barfield
Marte
Dellucci

Now I know this means that Baltimore would be throwing in the towel for the season (as if they have ANY chance of competing in their division or for the wildcard, anyway!) and the fit with Santana is not good because of Weiters. It also means that we would make history in trading away a vast majority of our farm system for an older guy (Mora), a guy close to free agency (Roberts) and a guy we gave away for nothing (Guthrie) who failed here before but this IS the trade, people that would fill all of our needs. Hey, I would NEVER do this because I am a prospect-first guy, but it DOES address our needs, doesn't it?

DH - Hafner
C - Shoppach
1B - Martinez
2B - Roberts
SS - Peralta
3B - Mora
LF - Francisco
CF - Sizemore
RF - Choo
SP - Lee
SP - Carmona
SP - Guthrie
SP - Laffey
SP - Sowers
Closer - Wood
Setup - Perez, Betancourt
Bullpen - Kobayashi, Meloan, Smith and Mujica/Rundles/minor leaguer to be determined
Bench - Carroll, Crowe/free agent, free agent catcher.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby MickS » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:30 am

dnosco wrote:Hoynes reports this rumor today. Interesting if it is ture. Looking at their ML roster there isn't anyone I would see as a #3 starter even if we threw in a prospect. Now, if we are somehow going to do a trade where we get Roberts, then I do it in a heartbeat. Except that he may go to 20 HR and .290 I think Garko may have posted his career average numbers last year. He might be worse but I can't see him getting a lot better than .290/.460/.350/.810. Plus there is his defense which is not a plus and never will be.

Imagine the howling that would go on if we did an Adam Miller and Garko for Jeremy Guthrie trade. Interestingly, I would object to that on basic grounds but it isn't like it wouldn't make sense for the next 2-3 years or so.

For a wild idea, how about this:

We get:

Guthrie
Roberts
Mora

Baltimore gets:

Garko
Santana
A. Cabrera
Miller
Huff
J. Lewis
Stevens
Barfield
Marte
Dellucci

Now I know this means that Baltimore would be throwing in the towel for the season (as if they have ANY chance of competing in their division or for the wildcard, anyway!) and the fit with Santana is not good because of Weiters. It also means that we would make history in trading away a vast majority of our farm system for an older guy (Mora), a guy close to free agency (Roberts) and a guy we gave away for nothing (Guthrie) who failed here before but this IS the trade, people that would fill all of our needs. Hey, I would NEVER do this because I am a prospect-first guy, but it DOES address our needs, doesn't it?

DH - Hafner
C - Shoppach
1B - Martinez
2B - Roberts
SS - Peralta
3B - Mora
LF - Francisco
CF - Sizemore
RF - Choo
SP - Lee
SP - Carmona
SP - Guthrie
SP - Laffey
SP - Sowers
Closer - Wood
Setup - Perez, Betancourt
Bullpen - Kobayashi, Meloan, Smith and Mujica/Rundles/minor leaguer to be determined
Bench - Carroll, Crowe/free agent, free agent catcher.


That might be the most idiotic trade proposal in the history of the game. Our catcher of the future, a future all-star SS, a young cheap lefty starter who will end up being as good as Guthrie, an excellent set-up guy or two , a potential number one starter, if his health issues are behind him, a serviceable 1B and others for one year of Roberts, a piece of trash like Mora and a pretty good pitcher. Thank God that you have absolutely no influence on the future of the Tribe. You'd set the franchise back by at least three years.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:14 pm

Baltimore wouldn't give fair value for Carlos Santana. They already have their catcher of the future and they dealt Ramon Hernandez so he (Matt Weiters) can start in the majors this coming season.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:50 pm

Is this a joke?

I hope it is, I really do.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:24 pm

"That might be the most idiotic trade proposal in the history of the game. Our catcher of the future, a future all-star SS, a young cheap lefty starter who will end up being as good as Guthrie, an excellent set-up guy or two , a potential number one starter, if his health issues are behind him, a serviceable 1B and others for one year of Roberts, a piece of trash like Mora and a pretty good pitcher. Thank God that you have absolutely no influence on the future of the Tribe. You'd set the franchise back by at least three years."

First, learn to read. I SPECIFICALLY said I wouldn't do this. Second, it does address our current needs. Hey, you may not like how it addresses those needs and I am not for it but, instead of being all Mr. High and mighty, make a suggestion. Mine was just for light winter banter so lighten up, Francis.

Santana - our catcher of the future? Please, a year ago Matt McBride and Wyatt Toregas were our catchers of the future. Santana has caught for exactly how many years? Shapiro, in his comments, indicates that he needs work on ALL phases of his catching, including speaking freakin' English!

Huff as a young, cheap lefty starter who will end up being as good as Guthrie? Yeah, we kept Sowers over Guthrie. Unless you are Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia or Johan Santana, everyone is a Jamie Moyer clone...and we know how well that worked out for Sowers so far.

Cabrera - future all-star SS? Well, maybe if we trade him to National League where great fielding and an OPS of barely .700 get you on the all-star team.

Piece of trash like Mora? - Hey, he is old, he is not that good but look at his production. Is it I-FREAKIN'-DENTICAL to what Peralta would give us at third and, throwing in Cabrera at SS and Barfield at second he improves our production. Plus he is Casey Blake but with only a one or two year (2010 option) commitment.

Plus we may get draft picks for Mora and will certainly get them for Roberts.

Hey, if you want to lighten the pot we are giving for Guthrie/Roberts/Mora feel free. I admit that I was heavy on what we give up just to avoid people saying "No way is anyone taking our trash for those guys". So, weigh in instead of criticizing or, well, just don't comment...especially if you can't read completely before commenting.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:02 pm

dnosco wrote:"That might be the most idiotic trade proposal in the history of the game. Our catcher of the future, a future all-star SS, a young cheap lefty starter who will end up being as good as Guthrie, an excellent set-up guy or two , a potential number one starter, if his health issues are behind him, a serviceable 1B and others for one year of Roberts, a piece of trash like Mora and a pretty good pitcher. Thank God that you have absolutely no influence on the future of the Tribe. You'd set the franchise back by at least three years."

First, learn to read. I SPECIFICALLY said I wouldn't do this. Second, it does address our current needs. Hey, you may not like how it addresses those needs and I am not for it but, instead of being all Mr. High and mighty, make a suggestion. Mine was just for light winter banter so lighten up, Francis.

Santana - our catcher of the future? Please, a year ago Matt McBride and Wyatt Toregas were our catchers of the future. Santana has caught for exactly how many years? Shapiro, in his comments, indicates that he needs work on ALL phases of his catching, including speaking freakin' English!

Huff as a young, cheap lefty starter who will end up being as good as Guthrie? Yeah, we kept Sowers over Guthrie. Unless you are Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia or Johan Santana, everyone is a Jamie Moyer clone...and we know how well that worked out for Sowers so far.

Cabrera - future all-star SS? Well, maybe if we trade him to National League where great fielding and an OPS of barely .700 get you on the all-star team.

Piece of trash like Mora? - Hey, he is old, he is not that good but look at his production. Is it I-FREAKIN'-DENTICAL to what Peralta would give us at third and, throwing in Cabrera at SS and Barfield at second he improves our production. Plus he is Casey Blake but with only a one or two year (2010 option) commitment.

Plus we may get draft picks for Mora and will certainly get them for Roberts.

Hey, if you want to lighten the pot we are giving for Guthrie/Roberts/Mora feel free. I admit that I was heavy on what we give up just to avoid people saying "No way is anyone taking our trash for those guys". So, weigh in instead of criticizing or, well, just don't comment...especially if you can't read completely before commenting.




1. Santana is probably a top 25-35 prospect in all of baseball, something nobody has ever said about Toregas and McBride. Come on...That is about as poor of an argument as they come.

2. David Huff is more than just Jeremy Sowers v.2 Your poor generalization of all left handed pitchers makes this argument worthless, just because he's a lefty finesse guy he's the next Sowers. I'm sure you're still bitter over the loss of Guthrie, despite him never giving this team a reason to keep him...but this is ridiculous. David Huff will be a quality starter in this league, and quite frankly Sowers still could be solid if he had a little more control.

3. Cabrera is more than solid at SS. While he may not be All-Star caliber, he is still someone you don't give up along with 9 other guys for the return we would be getting.


This deal is retarded, there isn't a GM in his right mind who would give up that pot of prospects and pros for Mora, a 1 year rental, and a solid #3.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:02 pm

"1. Santana is probably a top 25-35 prospect in all of baseball, something nobody has ever said about Toregas and McBride. Come on...That is about as poor of an argument as they come.

2. David Huff is more than just Jeremy Sowers v.2 Your poor generalization of all left handed pitchers makes this argument worthless, just because he's a lefty finesse guy he's the next Sowers. I'm sure you're still bitter over the loss of Guthrie, despite him never giving this team a reason to keep him...but this is ridiculous. David Huff will be a quality starter in this league, and quite frankly Sowers still could be solid if he had a little more control.

3. Cabrera is more than solid at SS. While he may not be All-Star caliber, he is still someone you don't give up along with 9 other guys for the return we would be getting.


This deal is retarded, there isn't a GM in his right mind who would give up that pot of prospects and pros for Mora, a 1 year rental, and a solid #3."

Reading clearly not mandatory around here:

(a) I said originally that I never would make this deal.

(b) I said I was heavy on our side just to avoid the people who said I was not giving up enough for some other team's better players.

Regarding Huff, you have no idea. None. He could be Sowers. You just don't know. It is a good comparison of how overvaluing lefties with not overpowering stuff can lead you to be left holding the bag. Not guaranteed either way...which is why they call them prospects.

So, as I said above, suggest a different package of players. The fit is there with what Baltimore has and what we need AND the idea that, in their division, they ought to be a full rebuild mode right now.

So, make another suggestion...and learn to read.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:17 pm

Here's a suggestion.

Don't come up with long drawn out trade packages in which you throw prospects teams don't need or want (Santana) along with veterans on the cusp of being cut (Marte/Dellucci) by this team to try and acquire some poor team's few good players.

It's almost worse than spam. Do I have a suggestion on what it would take to get Guthrie, Roberts and Mora? No, because I live in reality and don't need to fantasize about trades that don't even have the slightest chance of happening in a video game. I understand the fact that this is a message board and discussion is the name of the game.

I'd rather see realistic discussion, because trade rumors like this are the baseball version of SPAM.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby MickS » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:10 pm

Jesus, Dennis, forget the players exchanged (too ridiculous to even seriously discuss) and consider the practicality of such a deal. How would the Orioles add seven players to their roster? I can only come up with two theories:

1. You were drunk when you posted this.

2. I've been assuming that you are a fully functioning adult when, in fact, you are nine years old.

Oh! Okay, there is a third possibility:

3. You are a moron.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:23 pm

Hoynes "reported" that there was talk in the Baltimore media that the O's "might turn to Garko". Well, that's not entirely true...... the only "report" in Baltimore was one writer suggesting that the O's should look at Garko is they miss out on Texieria.... no actual rumor.

http://masnsports.com/2008/12/if-not-teixeira.html
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby cardiackidz » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:19 pm

you also have to take in consideration that Paul Hoynes is a terrible beat writer. i wouldnt take anything that guy says seriously.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby MickS » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:34 pm

Hi! My name is Dennis Nosco. I propose that we trade our entire 40 man roster for one year of Brian Roberts. Now I may not actually be proposing that, it all depends on your reaction to this post (I gotta leave myself a little wiggle room lest I expose myself as a compete buffoon). What do you think?
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:39 pm

MickS wrote:Jesus, Dennis, forget the players exchanged (too ridiculous to even seriously discuss) and consider the practicality of such a deal. How would the Orioles add seven players to their roster? I can only come up with two theories:

1. You were drunk when you posted this.

2. I've been assuming that you are a fully functioning adult when, in fact, you are nine years old.

Oh! Okay, there is a third possibility:

3. You are a moron.


:s_devil
Last edited by dnosco on Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:42 pm

TheWord wrote:Here's a suggestion.

Don't come up with long drawn out trade packages in which you throw prospects teams don't need or want (Santana) along with veterans on the cusp of being cut (Marte/Dellucci) by this team to try and acquire some poor team's few good players.

It's almost worse than spam. Do I have a suggestion on what it would take to get Guthrie, Roberts and Mora? No, because I live in reality and don't need to fantasize about trades that don't even have the slightest chance of happening in a video game. I understand the fact that this is a message board and discussion is the name of the game.

I'd rather see realistic discussion, because trade rumors like this are the baseball version of SPAM.


Totally blowing out of proportion what I said. First it isn't a rumor. Second I said I wouldn't personally do this. Third, just putting a suggestion out there of what we could do to fill all of our needs in one trade.

Again, come up with a suggestion...chirp, chirp.....Still waiting. :s_sarcastic
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:48 pm

Cleveland gets:

Dustin Pedroia
David Wright
Justin Masterson

Boston gets:

Jeremy Sowers
Matt LaPorta
Kelly Shoppach

NYM gets:

Rafael Betancourt
Mike Lowell
Carlos Santana
Chlamydia



There, it's a trade proposal. It's just about as likely as yours, which means I have a better shot getting dome from Jessica Alba tonight.

It has no business being talked about.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:51 pm

TheWord wrote:Cleveland gets:

Dustin Pedroia
David Wright
Justin Masterson

Boston gets:

Jeremy Sowers
Matt LaPorta
Kelly Shoppach

NYM gets:

Rafael Betancourt
Mike Lowell
Carlos Santana
Chlamydia



There, it's a trade proposal. It's just about as likely as yours, which means I have a better shot getting dome from Jessica Alba tonight.

It has no business being talked about.


With a post like that, especially the last part, it is clear you made a wrong turn at Yahoo and ended up here instead of the Cleveland.com forum.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:55 pm

Right, and apparently you took a wrong turn at pessimism and ended up in fantasy land.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby MickS » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:16 pm

1. Mora: With Peralta at 3B and Cabrera at SS, why the hell do we need Mr. Mediocrity Mora?

2. Roberts: Terrific player but with one year left on his contract, I don't give up that much. I don't believe in the "all in" strategy.

3. Guthrie: You act like this guy is a 22 y.o. phenom. He'll be 30 by the end of spring training. Huff looks a hell of a lot better if you look at age comparables.

Hodges, S. Lewis, Meloan, Stevens, Garko and maybe a lower level mid ceiling prospect (not Rondon or De LaCruz or Santana or anybody even remotely that good) for Roberts and Guthrie. Bal. wouldn't do it and that doesn't upset me at all because I'd do it only reluctantly.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby endlesssleeper » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:57 pm

Paul Hoynes making up rumors based on a deal some Baltimore writer dreamt up in his free time or dnosco's trade proposal. I'm not sure which is worse.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby cardiackidz » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:40 pm

Paul Hoynes because he's suppose to be a pro. he is by far the the worst beat writer of any sport in N.E. Ohio.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby npc29 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:21 pm

10 players? Come on now.. I don't think you are as crazy as everyone else thinks, but the idea of any team trading 10 players for three is pretty wild, even if you wouldn't do the deal.. The point is... Who WOULD?
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:31 am

Denny, my man, you need to lay off the trade proposals. :s_omg

That was a brutal proposal. :s_bomb

And if you didn't think it would happen or would want it too.....why even post it? :s_wink

Anyway, as for the rumor itself.....thank God for Castrovince. Although he is probably taking a well-deserved break after his outstanding job at the winter meetings. Hoynes? Talk about a mail-in job he does. Brutal. This is not a rumor, this is directly from some B-More writer who came up with an idea that maybe Garko was an option to pursue. Now, maybe something does happen, but this is more writer speculation than rumor at this point.

By the way, Huff to Sowers is not a good comp. Huff is more like Cliff Lee as far as his velocity and stuff goes.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:56 am

Consigliere wrote:Denny, my man, you need to lay off the trade proposals. :s_omg

That was a brutal proposal. :s_bomb

And if you didn't think it would happen or would want it too.....why even post it? :s_wink

Anyway, as for the rumor itself.....thank God for Castrovince. Although he is probably taking a well-deserved break after his outstanding job at the winter meetings. Hoynes? Talk about a mail-in job he does. Brutal. This is not a rumor, this is directly from some B-More writer who came up with an idea that maybe Garko was an option to pursue. Now, maybe something does happen, but this is more writer speculation than rumor at this point.

By the way, Huff to Sowers is not a good comp. Huff is more like Cliff Lee as far as his velocity and stuff goes.


I find myself in an unusual position. I actually think that Dennis, who I rarely agree with but respect, makes a better point than Tony, who is my hero. What Denny has done is put together a trade proposal that could well lead the Indians to the AL pennant next year. The trade would bring us a quintessential #3 starter, a leadoff man for a year and an effective, but aging 3B. I happen to believe the proposed lineup would be likely to win the AL Central and could be competitive in the playoffs. What is so crazy about that?

That being said, I think everyone who reads my posts know I would not make this deal. I see this as a single year deal, not 2-3 years. I don't agree with Denny about Santana and think he is just taking a position. And I do not believe there is budget for this. But to compare this trade proposal negatively to some of the other trade proposals and proposed FA signings that have been bandied about is horribly unfair IMO. I think Dennis' trade proposal is interesting. Wouldn't do it if hell was freezing over. :s_drinks
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:06 am

So, just because he is coming up with unrealistic trade proposals which have no shed of even the slightest bit of reality, we should give him a gold star on his posting record.

That's like going up to a 4th grader and asking him to write a multiplication problem that is true. He rights down 1x1 = 1 and all of a sudden you put him in the gifted class.

Baltimore wouldn't do that deal. Lumping in Dellucci, Marte and Barfield like they would be of value to that team is a joke, not to mention giving them a prospect who wouldn't have a position along with a prospect at low value (Miller).

It just doesn't make sense, but it IS a trade proposal....so hey, I guess that's something.....
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:03 am

The Garko to Baltimore rumor is FAR from new. It's been speculated on since October. Paul Hoynes has heard it from a few people and is just now mentioning it.

If the Orioles miss out on Tex, then the deal makes total sense....but not as complicated as mentioned in the initial thread. Garko, Barfield, and a pitcher makes some sense. Tribe could move Victor to 1B and use Shoppach at catcher. they then fill their infield spot.


Also, Huff has been compared to Sowers by scouts before. He could turn out to be better....or he could turn out even worse. I'd try to use Jackson as the pitcher to start, but they'd probably want better (though Garko and Barfield isn't a shabby return).


And whoever said that you can't expect a better SLG% than .350 from Garko is off their rocker. He'll easily put up better this year. He'll never be a .500 SLG guy but .350 is terrible even for him. Expect him to be around .450 this year with a OPS near .850.

I really don't want to part with him (would much rather trade Shoppach)...but for Roberts it'd probably be worth it. We have some guys coming up that can play 1B and Roberts fills a big hole for us. Only problem is we wouldn't have a ton of money to get a starter....but with the lineup we'd have and bullpen, we'd probably be able to get by with what we have.....
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:18 pm

Consigliere wrote:Denny, my man, you need to lay off the trade proposals. :s_omg

That was a brutal proposal. :s_bomb

And if you didn't think it would happen or would want it too.....why even post it? :s_wink

Anyway, as for the rumor itself.....thank God for Castrovince. Although he is probably taking a well-deserved break after his outstanding job at the winter meetings. Hoynes? Talk about a mail-in job he does. Brutal. This is not a rumor, this is directly from some B-More writer who came up with an idea that maybe Garko was an option to pursue. Now, maybe something does happen, but this is more writer speculation than rumor at this point.

By the way, Huff to Sowers is not a good comp. Huff is more like Cliff Lee as far as his velocity and stuff goes.


First, how many teams have all the pieces we need right now who should be willing to trade them to us? Probably only Baltimore. Note that I didn't say I wouldn't trade with Baltimore. I said I wouldn't do THE trade I proposed. There is a huge difference. The proposal was to get people to start thinking about it.

Second, regarding the comp from Huff to Sowers to Lee, here is what BA had to say about them:

2008 - "Huff's major strength is the ability to command all parts of the strike zone with a full arsenal of pitches. He can pund the bottom of the zone with an upper 80s sinker that tops out at 91 mph. The sink and depth on his changeup are well above average and he showed a little cut slider and a deper curveball...Huff's velocity is fringy. His secondary pitches are not consistently effective against lefthanders..."

2005 -"Sowers commands the zone with four pitches and goes right after hitters with an aggressive approach. He adds and subtracts from his fastball while mixing in a plus curveball, a cutter-type slider and a changeup. His fastball features good armside movement and sink from a deceptive three-quarters delivery. He can't overpower hitters with the 85-91 mph velocity of his fastball."

2003 - "Lee is a rare pitcher who can win without his best stuff. And when he's on watch out. His fastball sits at 91-93 mph, his slider has good late action, and his curveball and changeup give hitters something else to worry about. Lee is so smooth that hitters don't get a good read on his pitches until they're halfway to the plate."

I see significant differences in the scouting reports for Lee and the other two but significant similarities between Huff and Sowers, similarities that the Indians mentioned when they drafted Huff. Plus, when you look at their minor league numbers they are very similar INCLUDING K/IP, which to me is a very telling stat.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:25 pm

TheWord wrote:So, just because he is coming up with unrealistic trade proposals which have no shed of even the slightest bit of reality, we should give him a gold star on his posting record.

That's like going up to a 4th grader and asking him to write a multiplication problem that is true. He rights down 1x1 = 1 and all of a sudden you put him in the gifted class.

Baltimore wouldn't do that deal. Lumping in Dellucci, Marte and Barfield like they would be of value to that team is a joke, not to mention giving them a prospect who wouldn't have a position along with a prospect at low value (Miller).

It just doesn't make sense, but it IS a trade proposal....so hey, I guess that's something.....


There were thoughts behind each of the players I included, including Santana (who could DH or play another position, given his pre-catching history) and Miller, who might be intriguing enough to them that they would take the high risk/high reward option. Regarding the three throw-ins, Marte potentially replaces Mora, Barfield potentially replaces Roberts and Dellucci is just a salary dump to even out the Mora salary. Again, Baltimore would be waiving the white flag so they might be willing to give Barfield and Marte extended shots. So, while probably not a viable proposal, there are thoughts behind each player involved.

As I have sort of asked, assuming Baltimore would trade those three, who would you give them that would work for them and, to some extent, would hurt you to give up?

BTW, I was in the gifted class. :s_blush
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:The Garko to Baltimore rumor is FAR from new. It's been speculated on since October. Paul Hoynes has heard it from a few people and is just now mentioning it.

If the Orioles miss out on Tex, then the deal makes total sense....but not as complicated as mentioned in the initial thread. Garko, Barfield, and a pitcher makes some sense. Tribe could move Victor to 1B and use Shoppach at catcher. they then fill their infield spot.


Also, Huff has been compared to Sowers by scouts before. He could turn out to be better....or he could turn out even worse. I'd try to use Jackson as the pitcher to start, but they'd probably want better (though Garko and Barfield isn't a shabby return).


And whoever said that you can't expect a better SLG% than .350 from Garko is off their rocker. He'll easily put up better this year. He'll never be a .500 SLG guy but .350 is terrible even for him. Expect him to be around .450 this year with a OPS near .850.

I really don't want to part with him (would much rather trade Shoppach)...but for Roberts it'd probably be worth it. We have some guys coming up that can play 1B and Roberts fills a big hole for us. Only problem is we wouldn't have a ton of money to get a starter....but with the lineup we'd have and bullpen, we'd probably be able to get by with what we have.....


Hermie,

First, if you read closely the .350 was the OBP.

Second, who would you be getting in your trade, just Roberts or Roberts and Guthrie or Roberts, Guthrie and Mora?
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:41 pm

just Roberts. We give up one proven ML player and another guy that's proven he 'can' play at the ML level....but has struggled mightily each of the last 2. Even with Roberts being a free agent after the season we'd be making a pretty good deal (depending on the pitcher included)....


Mora isn't going anywhere. Has a full no-trade clause and doesn't want to leave the Maryland area because of sick daughter (or maybe it's son, but think's it's a girl) he has. The doctor's she sees are there and he doesn't want to leave til he has too.


Guthrie won't get traded either unless we give up Carmona (who they initially asked for just for Roberts). Doesn't really make sense for them to move him since he's still a few years away from free agency.

One guy you 'could' see added would be Sherrill (if the Tribe doesn't get Ohman or Nelson). NOT as a closer, but as a lefty setup man he's still very good. His number look pretty brutal on the surface.....but lefties only hit .190 off him last year still and in his career they have only hit .171. He'd be cheaper salary-wise than a guy like Ohman. He's got at least 2 more (I think 3 though) years left before he's a free agent too (arbitration eligible). Shouldn't get too much though since he struggled as a closer and is really only a setup guy. I wouldn't include Perez in a deal to get him along with Roberts....but a guy like Rundles or maybe even Sipp depending on the other pieces could work potentially....


As far as Garko....I thought his SLG was better than that, but in your initial post you listed it as .290/.460/.350.....you said he had a OBP of .460 and SLG of .350 there (the line stat goes BA/OBP/SLG). Should have noticed that you just flip-flopped the numbers but missed the .460 number (only caught the last one).
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:56 pm

Hermie13 wrote:just Roberts. We give up one proven ML player and another guy that's proven he 'can' play at the ML level....but has struggled mightily each of the last 2. Even with Roberts being a free agent after the season we'd be making a pretty good deal (depending on the pitcher included)....


Mora isn't going anywhere. Has a full no-trade clause and doesn't want to leave the Maryland area because of sick daughter (or maybe it's son, but think's it's a girl) he has. The doctor's she sees are there and he doesn't want to leave til he has too.

Guthrie won't get traded either unless we give up Carmona (who they initially asked for just for Roberts). Doesn't really make sense for them to move him since he's still a few years away from free agency.

One guy you 'could' see added would be Sherrill (if the Tribe doesn't get Ohman or Nelson). NOT as a closer, but as a lefty setup man he's still very good. His number look pretty brutal on the surface.....but lefties only hit .190 off him last year still and in his career they have only hit .171. He'd be cheaper salary-wise than a guy like Ohman. He's got at least 2 more (I think 3 though) years left before he's a free agent too (arbitration eligible). Shouldn't get too much though since he struggled as a closer and is really only a setup guy. I wouldn't include Perez in a deal to get him along with Roberts....but a guy like Rundles or maybe even Sipp depending on the other pieces could work potentially....


As far as Garko....I thought his SLG was better than that, but in your initial post you listed it as .290/.460/.350.....you said he had a OBP of .460 and SLG of .350 there (the line stat goes BA/OBP/SLG). Should have noticed that you just flip-flopped the numbers but missed the .460 number (only caught the last one).


Sorry about flip-flopping those numbers.

I wouldn't want Sherrill for Perez. The latter is younger and has more versatility. We have more options if we keep Perez including, in my opinion, trade value.

I was afraid you would say just for Roberts which, to me, is an issue as it is only for one year of Roberts. I was unaware of the Mora situation (may be that his daughter is being treated at Johns Hopkins) and not getting him is not a deal breaker for me although who is to say he would have to move his family and, even if he does, Cleveland Clinic is top notch. Nevertheless, based on your information, let's forget about Mora. Still, one year of Roberts for multiple years of Garko and Huff plus Barfield is too much for me. Pitching is worth more than hitting and, thought I would include Huff as I think he profiles closer to Sowers, I wouldn't want to give him up in addition to Garko. So I could see including De La Cruz who is further away from the majors than Huff.

Looking at the Guthrie service time and the Orioles' competition and how long those teams will be competitive with their current roster, I am thinking the Orioles will trade for a younger starter (or two) with the idea that they will be building for 2011/2012 with guys they will still own for 2-3 years after that, instead of burning all their Guthrie years when they are rebuilding.

You seem to have a lot of insight into the Orioles so I will defer to you. Still, I think that it is more workable than you think to get at least Roberts and Guthrie.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:03 pm

Nobody even mentioned Angelos' ridiculous trade demands for even the smallest of players.

It's just not even close to realistic or possible from either side, but is IS a trade proposal.

(applause)
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:08 pm

Denny, Huff sits around 91-92 and tops out at 93 MPH. Just like Lee. Same kind of look on the mound too and pounds righties inside. Initially I thought Huff was another Sowers in the making, which was my mistake in taking BA as gospel and thereby ranked him a lot lower than he should of been last year. Amazing how an opinion can change when you get out and see a player and talk to some people in the game as in talking with scouts from a few orgs over the course of the season this is where the Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels comps come and having seen him I can see it. In fact, Huff's plus changeup and 92-93 FB offering are almost identical to Hamels. Not saying he IS those guys, but he projects more with stuff and look as them than Sowers.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:12 pm

dnosco wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:just Roberts. We give up one proven ML player and another guy that's proven he 'can' play at the ML level....but has struggled mightily each of the last 2. Even with Roberts being a free agent after the season we'd be making a pretty good deal (depending on the pitcher included)....


Mora isn't going anywhere. Has a full no-trade clause and doesn't want to leave the Maryland area because of sick daughter (or maybe it's son, but think's it's a girl) he has. The doctor's she sees are there and he doesn't want to leave til he has too.

Guthrie won't get traded either unless we give up Carmona (who they initially asked for just for Roberts). Doesn't really make sense for them to move him since he's still a few years away from free agency.

One guy you 'could' see added would be Sherrill (if the Tribe doesn't get Ohman or Nelson). NOT as a closer, but as a lefty setup man he's still very good. His number look pretty brutal on the surface.....but lefties only hit .190 off him last year still and in his career they have only hit .171. He'd be cheaper salary-wise than a guy like Ohman. He's got at least 2 more (I think 3 though) years left before he's a free agent too (arbitration eligible). Shouldn't get too much though since he struggled as a closer and is really only a setup guy. I wouldn't include Perez in a deal to get him along with Roberts....but a guy like Rundles or maybe even Sipp depending on the other pieces could work potentially....


As far as Garko....I thought his SLG was better than that, but in your initial post you listed it as .290/.460/.350.....you said he had a OBP of .460 and SLG of .350 there (the line stat goes BA/OBP/SLG). Should have noticed that you just flip-flopped the numbers but missed the .460 number (only caught the last one).


Sorry about flip-flopping those numbers.

I wouldn't want Sherrill for Perez. The latter is younger and has more versatility. We have more options if we keep Perez including, in my opinion, trade value.

I was afraid you would say just for Roberts which, to me, is an issue as it is only for one year of Roberts. I was unaware of the Mora situation (may be that his daughter is being treated at Johns Hopkins) and not getting him is not a deal breaker for me although who is to say he would have to move his family and, even if he does, Cleveland Clinic is top notch. Nevertheless, based on your information, let's forget about Mora. Still, one year of Roberts for multiple years of Garko and Huff plus Barfield is too much for me. Pitching is worth more than hitting and, thought I would include Huff as I think he profiles closer to Sowers, I wouldn't want to give him up in addition to Garko. So I could see including De La Cruz who is further away from the majors than Huff.

Looking at the Guthrie service time and the Orioles' competition and how long those teams will be competitive with their current roster, I am thinking the Orioles will trade for a younger starter (or two) with the idea that they will be building for 2011/2012 with guys they will still own for 2-3 years after that, instead of burning all their Guthrie years when they are rebuilding.

You seem to have a lot of insight into the Orioles so I will defer to you. Still, I think that it is more workable than you think to get at least Roberts and Guthrie.


Who said they wanted to trade Perez for Sherrill?

Also never said trade Huff. I said Jackson. They'd ask for better....and I'd try and get a younger guy that's a few years away included first (or Laffey...whom I'd try to trade before Huff). You may have to trade Huff though, as they may push for him....

If Roberts leaves after one year we'll get 2 draft picks for him. Yeah the draft picks will be 3 years away at best likely, but needs to be considered.

You're NOT gonna get Roberts cheap just because he only has one year left. Granted Matt Holliday is a bigger hitter and would normally command more....but it took a guy that can be a solid closer (Street), a decent #4-5 starter pitcher (Smith), and a top prospect/young talent (Gonzalez) to land him and he's only got 1 year left (and will be tougher to extend)....and makes about $5M more than Roberts in 2009.....

We'll have to come up with a trade similar to that to land Roberts....should we decide to even go that route....
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:28 pm

Consigliere wrote:Denny, Huff sits around 91-92 and tops out at 93 MPH. Just like Lee. Same kind of look on the mound too and pounds righties inside. Initially I thought Huff was another Sowers in the making, which was my mistake in taking BA as gospel and thereby ranked him a lot lower than he should of been last year. Amazing how an opinion can change when you get out and see a player and talk to some people in the game as in talking with scouts from a few orgs over the course of the season this is where the Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels comps come and having seen him I can see it. In fact, Huff's plus changeup and 92-93 FB offering are almost identical to Hamels. Not saying he IS those guys, but he projects more with stuff and look as them than Sowers.


The key for Huff will be control. Sowers had great control coming up but has struggled with it at the ML level (both Sowers and Huff were voted as having the best control in our farm system...could mean nothing, but both did have great control). If Huff can continue to have great control, he'll be a solid #3 and with some luck could be a #2 (though I think that's a bit high for him).

Huff has gotten the benefit of being allowed to advance at his own pace and not rushed like Sowers. Huff is only a year younger than Sowers and actually a year older than Laffey. Age is just a number....but Huff had 3 years in college (though sat out I year I believe due to transfer) and now has had parts of 3 season in the minors. Sowers had 1.5 years of pro ball before he was thrown into the rotation. He was dominate....but his lack of experience has really shown through the last 2 years.....


I've read Huff is comparable to Zito (more than Lee or Hamels).....hopefully they mean Oakland Zito and not SF Zito, lol...
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby dnosco » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:35 pm

You are correct, I read incorrectly. You didn't say Perez, saying you wouldn't include Perez. At the same time if we are set on getting another lefty for the pen I would sign Ohman. Not that I want to do that but Ohman doesn't cost us prospects to get him.

I understand your point about Roberts which is why I made this a multiple player deal from Baltimore's end. I think we actually do better in a multiplayer trade with the same team than in acquiring one player we need from each team. I might be totally wrong but when you decide to go into full rebuild you dump everyone you know has a poor likelihood to be there when you are ready to compete again.

Regarding the package for Roberts, I could see a Garko, Barfield, Dellucci, De La Cruz package which, for the reasons I mentioned above, make more sense.

Again, may not work and whatever we do will be significantly painful. I just see a fit with Baltimore I would like to explore and I see that we can get better value trading for both our middle infielder and young MOR starter from the same team.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:45 pm

Well I disagree. We really aren't that much improved on the infield by adding Mora and Roberts but subtracting Cabrera. Mora is old and has been battling injury. When he gets hurt again, do we bring in Marte to play 3B then?

And why would the O's take Dellucci? They have a ton of money coming off the books already after 2009 (Roberts $8M, Huff $8M, and Mora $9M among others). They get enough or really save by taking on Looch.

I think the best offer would be straight up for Roberts or with Sherrill included.

IMO, we're getting better value than adding more players from the O's.



Now, I'd love to get Aubrey Huff and Roberts....but that's a ton of money to be adding and would take a ton to get both those two (though not out of the question).
Last edited by Hermie13 on Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby endlesssleeper » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:55 pm

Barfield and Dellucci have almost no value. Considering that Angelos wanted Carmona and another guy(Cabrera???) for Roberts, there is no reason to believe he would take those two chumps.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:03 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Barfield and Dellucci have almost no value. Considering that Angelos wanted Carmona and another guy(Cabrera???) for Roberts, there is no reason to believe he would take those two chumps.


Barfield they'd take. they could use him at 2B. They have Izturis for the next 2 years so the need for a SS isn't as great (though I'm sure they'd still prefer Cabrera over Barfield). Barfield value is down, but it's not zero.

And no one was saying Barfield and Dellucci alone. But if the other parts around Barfield (I agree, they won't want Looch) are nice then they'd consider it at least.


Bottom line is the O's want to extend Roberts and seem to think they can. Until they decide they can't, he's not gonna be traded....

And other than Aubrey Huff and Sherrill there's really nothing the O's have (and would be willing to give up) that would help the Tribe in 2009. Guthrie would....but would they even trade him....and would Shapiro take him back?
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby TheWord » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:50 pm

As much as I'd like to dump Dellucci and Barfield in a package for anything of Major League value, it's not even the least bit realistic.

You can couple them with whoever you want, they would just as soon take neither and not put their salaries on their roster. In fact, we would probably have to give up a higher level prospect for them to take on the salary of Dellucci.
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:04 pm

Considering Barfield makes just above the league minimum...taking on his 'salary' means nothing to teams. Now do they think he'll ever me a ML starter? Possibly not, but money has nothing to do with him......unlike Looch who is totally about money, lol.


I could see a team like Baltimore or Washington taking Barfield in a trade. He'd be a good fit (especially in Washington who just traded Bonaficio to the Marlins) with one of those clubs. Not a ton of pressure and can just try and get back to what worked for him his rookie year in SD.

I could possibly see a Barfield for Belliard deal. Belliard only makes $1.9M....so the Nats wouldn't really be saving much money ($1.5M is it)....but they'd get a much younger guy to man 2B that has options left and 4 years at least til he's up for free agency.

Tribe meanwhile would get a solid ML 2B that plays ok D and can still put up good offensive numbers for a 2B....plus can play 3B and 1B as well.

Not a likely move, but would make some sense for both parties......not gonna get much more for Belliard than that (maybe a low-A prospect as well)....
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Re: Garko to Baltimore

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:44 pm

I honestly thought denis was just fucking with us then he defended this trade and I finally get him

He has zero understanding of the current baseball economic position and less of an understanding of how the game has shifted

Prospects are gold in the current system young cheap players are what every team yearns for yes yearns for

A package like that is more than it would take to land 2 all stars, yes we also dump a salary but a starting 1st, top prospect C/3B, starting SS/2B, Plus two ready SP and 2 ready very good MR arms for an expiring roberts, an over raided guthrie who is going to be 30 and Mora who has been in a severe decline from his all star days

Maybe about a decade a deal like that goes down, but not in todays climate. its a different game and I think denis doesnt get how times have changed
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