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PTBNL Thread

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:26 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote: Here's a wild thought; If the Brewers were high on Brantley, how about if we trade him back, include a pitcher, and take Escobar. HE would be a better fit for the Indians.

:?

Not a bad thought but what pitcher are we talking about?? I have a hunch that the Brewers desired pitcher is someone we would balk at sending for Escobar and the pitchers we would be willing to send is not someone the Brewers would be interested in.



One problem when you make multiple trades for prospects is you can't protect them all. We will loose somebody in the Rule V draft that would would like to keep. I think pitching is an area of strength in the Indians system, stronger than the Brewers system.
I wouldn't include a Huff, Miller, or Lewis. But I'd have a conversation about almost anyone else.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:44 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote: One problem when you make multiple trades for prospects is you can't protect them all. We will loose somebody in the Rule V draft that would would like to keep. I think pitching is an area of strength in the Indians system, stronger than the Brewers system.
I wouldn't include a Huff, Miller, or Lewis. But I'd have a conversation about almost anyone else.

I believe you meant Jensen Lewis (with Scott Lewis around I need to check).
I guess that is where we are are split then. I wouldn't deal guys like Raffy Left, Sipp, Meloan, Stevens as I forsee those 4 being main cogs in the bullpen in 2009 and into the future.
Players like de la Cruz and Rondon are also no gos in my book because they are the arms I am looking to move into the rotation come mid-2010 and filling holes as guys like Lee/ Westbrook and others have their contracts expiring.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:57 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote: One problem when you make multiple trades for prospects is you can't protect them all. We will loose somebody in the Rule V draft that would would like to keep. I think pitching is an area of strength in the Indians system, stronger than the Brewers system.
I wouldn't include a Huff, Miller, or Lewis. But I'd have a conversation about almost anyone else.

I believe you meant Jensen Lewis (with Scott Lewis around I need to check).
I guess that is where we are are split then. I wouldn't deal guys like Raffy Left, Sipp, Meloan, Stevens as I forsee those 4 being main cogs in the bullpen in 2009 and into the future.
Players like de la Cruz and Rondon are also no gos in my book because they are the arms I am looking to move into the rotation come mid-2010 and filling holes as guys like Lee/ Westbrook and others have their contracts expiring.


I think everyone agrees that we need another infielder. The reason I like Escobar is because he is close to being ML ready and has a plus glove, and should grow with his bat. Alternatives, such as Brian Roberts, Casey Blake, will be more expensive in either players, or money. I just think this is an opportunity to explore a deal. All the prospects you name have good potential, but their isn't room for all of them.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:45 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote: I just think this is an opportunity to explore a deal. All the prospects you name have good potential, but their isn't room for all of them.


I'll disagree with you regarding the bullpen arms. There is enough space for them when dead-weight like Mastny, Mujica and Rincon are castaway. At this point I am very willing to deal away both Raffy Betancourt and Masa K and if they go, there is plenty of space for our internal options.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TheWord » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:22 pm

Since it appears the PTBNL is going to be Brantley, I'd like to know how some of you project him.

Personally, I see him as Juan Pierre with less speed and a better eye. I'm not very excited because I don't think he will develop power which is pretty nice to have at the top of the lineup. He shouldn't be just a slap hitter, which is why I would have chosen Green.

Opinions?
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:13 pm

As suspected, it is indeed Brantley.

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/a ... p&c_id=cle
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gotribe31 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:32 pm

I like Brantley. Yes, power at the top of the lineup is nice, but it's hardly necessary. I want a guy who will get on base, and Brantley's OBP was .394. He walked almost twice as much as he struck out, and 28-36 stealing bases. He's only 21, so there is still time for some power to develop. But if he can go .285/10/65 with an OBP in the neighborhood of .400, to me that's something that is pretty valuable.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby dnosco » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:00 pm

brantley has no arm. Brantley is not a good defensive outfielder. He doesn't walk much, either, at around 1 walk every 9 AB or so and that is in the minor leagues when guys have less control and command than in the majors.

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bi ... ?pl=488726

Compare Tyner's numbers at 21 and 22 years old at AA

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... yner.shtml

He could very easily turn out to be Tyner but without the CF defense.

Hey, the guy could turn out to be Kenny Lofton

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... fton.shtml

but:

(a) He has to play LF and that is supposed to be LaPorta's position
(b) We could have, minimally, had Taylor Green who could have possibly been a super utility guy.

We were suckered into this trade which even more favors the Brewers than it did at the time considering the probably clause about us potentially getting less value if the Brewers did not make the playoffs.

The trade is what it is but, please, no trumpeting Shapiro and Co. for this trade. It is NOT a great trade and it is probably NOT a good trade. It is a passable trade.

Milwaukee gets the additional playoff money. They get the two draft choices. They made out a lot better than we did on this one and, in July trades, I doubt that should happen.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gorman8621 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:27 pm

Only time will tell if this was a good trade or not. You complaining about it already is nothing short of ridiculous. Only Zach Jackson (the throw in) has made it to the bigs yet. You can bitch in 5 different languages if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you have no idea how this will end up.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:29 pm

Yes, its Brantley. I'm trying to understand though how he (Brantley) can be considered the '2nd best player to come in the trade' as Shapiro alluded to in the press conference announcing the deal. It doesn't make sense in my book.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby npc29 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:34 pm

We wouldn't have gotten anything for Sabathia if we kept him anyway... So really what's the big deal? LaPorta was the centerpiece of this thing and to me, that's all that really matters. If he pans out, it will be a success. It would have been nice to get another solid piece out of this deal, but GMs are getting smarter, very few are going to give up a lot of pieces. Shapiro did what he could and I'm not at all disappointed in it. I don't buy the "this deal wouldn't be there much longer, we had to act on it", I was convinced other teams would really pay for Sabathia if they wanted him bad enough, but what are you going to do?
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:41 pm

Well,,,, I am happy we got Brantley. Heck, it almost feels like he's been in the organization for 3 months. He does have some tools that will be valuable here.

What does this mean for the team long-term? Let's assume Brantley, Laporta, and Santana all become ML ready by mid to late next season. Sizemore is not moving anywhere, and besides Brantley is not as good a CF as Grady. That means Brantley, with his speed, plays LF. That leaves 1B for Laporta. (He could also DH, but he's young and we already have a highly-paid DH). Santana is a catcher, but Victor isn't moving, except to !B, (oh, Laporta and Garko are there. And what abour Mills?). I understand Santana is a converted infielder. Maybe we should switch him back to 3B.

The question is, should the Tribe move Laporta to 1B, Brantley to LF, and Santana to 3B this spring, or prolong the decision. Also, does this mean people like Garko, Trevor Crowe, & Ben Francisco are trade bait? :roll:
Last edited by GhostofTedCox on Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:42 pm

I'm not upset with it.

I thought it was Brantley all along. Plus, I still think he is a legitimate prospect.

I don't think he's going develop any power like some have suggested (I just don't see the 'power predictors' in his numbers). But, that said, he looks to have all the ability to hit for a high average, put the ball in play and get on base at a decent clip.

If you ask me, he falls on the Indians prospect map just ahead of Trevor Crowe. Similar bat, probably more speed, little less pop but he's considerably younger (in prospect terms).

If his floor is a 4th OFer, then so be it. Personally, I see his ceiling as substantially better than that (leadoff hitter).
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:47 pm

I haven't seen him play so I am not going to opine on his skills. I would just be real surprised if the Indians had two months to scout these players and made a big mistake on the evaluation. He was a ranked prospect by BA, even if you do not consider BA the pinnacle of minor league analysis as I do. There must have been a significant difference in the evaluation of the two players because Green certainly fills organizational shortcomings better than Brantley. My big problem is whether I should replace Hodges at 10th on my prospect list with a player I have not seen.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gorman8621 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:03 pm

It could also have to do with value. If Brantley has more value than maybe we send him off somewhere else this offseason to get pieces that fit our needs. Maybe package him in a deal for Roberts...who knows?

It doesn't mean we have to start making room for all these guys. Some of them will be dealt...pure and simple. LaPorta, Mills, Santana more than likely will not be traded so that leaves guys like Brantley available.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby toledobuck » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:06 pm

The Tribe has lacked speed for quite some time now and it will be nice to get a legit prospect in place to help out in this capacity for 2010. Lofton was so vital and disruptive at the top of the order. I am not saying that Brantley is as fast as Lofton. However, he probably has more upside to steel bases than anyone else in our organization right now. Crowe is not consistent enough yet to be counted on the be on base enough. When Crowe is hot, he is extremely valuable. When he is cold, he is worthless. Brantley does not appear to have much inconsistencies in his game. The other players with speed in our organization do not project to be MLB caliber players (ie Constanza, Montero, White).

Even if Brantely pans out to be a 4th OF, he will give Wedge an option to steal a base late in the game which we have not had in Cleveland for a very long time.

Regarding his defense, I do not believe anybody one this site has ever seen this kid play. Lets reserve judgement until we see him at Akron or Columbus next year. Grady's arm is not great either. I am sure that Brantley can cover a lot of ground out there and probably be better defensively than LaPorta.

We'll see. I am happy about the Brantley aquisition.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:11 pm

Shapiros audio conference call about the pick

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/media/ ... id=mlb&v=2
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby timdav » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:44 pm

With the acquisition of a Kenny Lofton-type prototype CF/leadoff-man/contact hitter with speed....Brantley...they are considering the following down the road:

Brantley...CF/batting leadoff
Sizemore..LF/batting 3rd
La Porta...1b (occassional DH)...hitting 4th

Just contemplating.

GO TRIBE!

Tim, near Akron
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:10 pm

I am much happier about getting Brantley than I would have been about getting Green.

Amazingly, Brantley is on the same timetable as LaPorta. Both will open next year in big league camp in spring training and along with Crowe will be your starting OF in Columbus. Brantley is expected to play LF or CF int he org, and for now will settle in CF where they like him.

He's a good 4th outfielder at worst. As far as every day player ability, I see a floor of Randy Winn, a middle of Juan Pierre (little less speed, but much better plate approach), and a ceiling of Kenny Lofton.

I was able to talk to one scout today who saw LaPorta and Brantley play. He says he likes them both, and with their ceiling potential the Indians may have very well got their 2000's version of Belle/Lofton in this trade.

I really like the addition of Brantley, as he adds something we lack a lot. I know a lot of people get hung up on power and all that, but we need some table-setters and guys who consistently put the bat on the ball too. He already is a gap hitter and his power is always going to be below average, but I think he has Lofton-power potential of 8-12 HR a year and driving the ball into the gaps.

Not a GREAT trade, and certainly not a HORRIBLE trade. I'd give it a solid B or a B- because we could *maybe* of had a little more. Time will truly tell how great or bad this trade was.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby petes999 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:39 am

Back in June, I thought we made a relatively good trade. I didn't think we got the value that we should have, yet it seemed that GMs had shifted over the years to protect their farm system where they wouldn't trade as much as in the past. Plus, I could sympathize with Brewers not wanting to give up alot without knowing if CC would put them over the top for the playoffs.

My issue now is 1 - Bryson got injured which you never know about and can't fault Shapiro too much - other than not shutting him down. Yet, my 2nd issue is if there was a contingency in the trade you would have thought Shapiro could have gotten more due to giving Brewers assurance that they reached their goal of the playoffs. What's worse, who would we have gotten if they lost their last game and missed the playoffs (assuming a loss to the Mets in a one-game series)? Shapiro said the importance in PTBNL was to be able to scout and take the best player ... which made sense at the time. Yet, we could have been stuck with a player who regressed terribly in the 2nd half (with the Brewers picking). Then what would the trade have been? CC for Laporta (nothing else).
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby jellis » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:47 am

petes999 wrote:Back in June, I thought we made a relatively good trade. I didn't think we got the value that we should have, yet it seemed that GMs had shifted over the years to protect their farm system where they wouldn't trade as much as in the past. Plus, I could sympathize with Brewers not wanting to give up alot without knowing if CC would put them over the top for the playoffs.

My issue now is 1 - Bryson got injured which you never know about and can't fault Shapiro too much - other than not shutting him down. Yet, my 2nd issue is if there was a contingency in the trade you would have thought Shapiro could have gotten more due to giving Brewers assurance that they reached their goal of the playoffs. What's worse, who would we have gotten if they lost their last game and missed the playoffs (assuming a loss to the Mets in a one-game series)? Shapiro said the importance in PTBNL was to be able to scout and take the best player ... which made sense at the time. Yet, we could have been stuck with a player who regressed terribly in the 2nd half (with the Brewers picking). Then what would the trade have been? CC for Laporta (nothing else).



It was Brantley vs Green and both were legit specs, at this point I dont think you can even reach a consensus on who most people like better. Green more power and could play 2B defiantly can play 3B. Brantley fast, excellent plate discipline, more advanced. Its a matter of how you view specs and what we need. If the Brewers picked they would have selected Green mostly cause he was less advanced. The Brewers are more than likely going to shift Gamel to first cause they will trade Fielder before his contract is up and Brantley would have replaced Mike Cameron. Now maybe they shift Braun to CF and hope some one like Cain can develop very quickly. Brantley would have helped them next year though and no team wants to give up developed players.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TheWord » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:32 am

No way does Braun move to center, that would be insane. The guy can barely play left.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:28 am

TheWord wrote:No way does Braun move to center, that would be insane. The guy can barely play left.

IF the Brewers are looking for a CF, I have to wonder if one of the other players for the Tribe interests them (Francisco, Gut, Crowe).
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gotribe31 » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:51 am

Shift Braun to CF? That is borderline insane. Also I don't think Brantley figured in their plans at the start of next year, he just isn't that far along just yet. Maybe a callup if he pushed his way in, but I doubt he would have broken camp with the big club. Francisco isn't a CF guy either, and Crowe would be a fill-in there at best.

TimDav, I think you are on the right track with your thinking, but I don't think Brantley pushes Sizemroe out of CF. Grady is a gold-glove caliber CF, and Brantley's arm isn't any better than Grady's.

Bottom line here, I think the Indians took the best player available to them who has a good chance of contributing at the major league level within the next couple of seasons.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby jellis » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:50 pm

TheWord wrote:No way does Braun move to center, that would be insane. The guy can barely play left.


Yeah he only had zero errors in LF, was 4th in zone rating and range factor among all LF and tied for 5th in assists. More than a few experts have said he is more than athletic enough to play CF. I remember Keith Law or Jim Callis stating last year they thought he would end up in CF, thats where I got the idea. Hart might be a better optinion, but Braun could end up in CF
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gotribe31 » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:42 pm

Braun is pretty much a butcher in the OF. Has a good arm and is athletic, but in no way shape or form is he even an average defensive OF. He only had 9 assists, which is more of a product of guys running on him than anything else, and his RF was below 2. Most CF are in the 2.5-3.5 range. He may be able to play a passable LF at some point, but I will bet my life savings that Ryan Braun is never an everyday CF anywhere in major league baseball.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby jellis » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:14 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Braun is pretty much a butcher in the OF. Has a good arm and is athletic, but in no way shape or form is he even an average defensive OF. He only had 9 assists, which is more of a product of guys running on him than anything else, and his RF was below 2. Most CF are in the 2.5-3.5 range. He may be able to play a passable LF at some point, but I will bet my life savings that Ryan Braun is never an everyday CF anywhere in major league baseball.



ok fair enough, what do you guys think then could hart play there
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TheWord » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:48 pm

I don't think you optimally want a big guy like Hart in CF.

They'll more than likely look to an outside source to fill their hole in center.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:49 pm

Where is Cameron going?
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby TheWord » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:53 pm

A retirement community?

Just kidding.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:10 am

Cameron will be fine in center...no reason to put Hart out there. He is only in RF because Braun is in LF...Cameron is a necessity in CF to make up for those two out there.
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Re: PTBNL Thread

Postby jellis » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:46 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Cameron will be fine in center...no reason to put Hart out there. He is only in RF because Braun is in LF...Cameron is a necessity in CF to make up for those two out there.



I was thinking long term, more in conjunction with Brantley being the PTBNL. My statement earlier was I was sure they woudl keep Brantley because he would fill a huge hole in the OF in another year when he should be ready and that's when Camerons contract is up. As a matter of fact he might not be back next year unless the club picks up his option which is no guarantee
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