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what else is shapiro going to do?

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what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:03 pm

what do all you indians fans think shapiro and company will do next? me, i think you have to go get a legit middle to top of the rotation starting pitcher. i think with the addtion of kerry wood gets you to 90 wins but to do anything in october you need to add a good starting pitcher.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby npc29 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:15 pm

We need both a starting pitcher and a infielder.. I think there are more starting pitchers and the ones that will be in the price range of the Indians will be around later in the offseason... But man wherever this infielder is going to come from.. I have no clue.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:38 pm

I think the Indians will sign a stop gap 2B, like a Grudzalinek (sp) and there final big move is a big trade to get a starting pitcher.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:43 pm

The idea of Harang interests me more if I can unload/ redistribute some salary in the process.

Assuming Shoppach gets a monster raise in Arbitration (say 2M for 09) to be the back-up catcher and Raffy B (3.35M) isn't your closer or top right-handed setup man, putting them with a Delucci (4M) and lower tier prospect you have roughly equalled the cost of Harang (11M) for 2009.

Issue then is the cost of Harang in 2010 (12M) and 2011 (14M or 2.5M buyout).
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:02 pm

do you guys think shapiro will get in on brad penny eventually?
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:31 pm

why would the Reds settle for that though? a) the package is pretty weak, especially now that they have traded for Ramon Hernandez to be their catcher, b) they don't gain anything financially, and c) they'd be selling very low on Harang. This also begs the question if we should go after Harang -- did he just have a bad year or is something else wrong with him? Considering you'd be on the hook for atleast $23MM, I'd really want to be sure about that.

Let's face it, nobody will give away their #2 or #3 starters. In fact, most aren't even available at all (via the trade market). I've been screaming for a trade to be made with the Marlins for either, in order of preference, Ricky Nolasco, Josh Johnson or Anibal Sanchez. Chances are you'd either get a "no thank you" or you'd have to part with top prospects and/or affordable major leaguers. I just don't see that happening. That doesn't mean there's nobody out there of interest with a possibility of being acquired:

- Gil Meche (may seem strange, but he's put up very decent numbers)
- Jonathan Sanchez (basic stats look ugly, but has been very unlucky: FIP of 3.85 and tRA of 4.53)
- Jered Weaver (not sure about his availability, but has flown under the radar after his stellar rookie season)
- Ian Snell (same as Weaver, however he does some upside left -- Huntington can't be fleeced though)
- Dave Bush (solid pitcher, though increasing flyball rate is a concern)

I'm just throwing these names out there, but I think that's what you'd be looking at. Unless Shapiro would like to break open the bank of course and trade a big chunk of our farm system. There might also be some upper level prospect who could fill the need, but we also have Huff waiting in the wings. The easiest way is free agency and someone like Sheets would look really nice in our rotation, but given the fact that some of the richer teams are after him, I doubt we can sign him in terms of financial cost and the years he'll get.

That said, i do hope Shapiro will explore every avenue to get a starter (I'm sure he will) and I'm also holding out some hope that we can sign Dunn to a very favorable contract. If not, i wouldn't mind signing Grudzielanek to a 1-year as a stop gap.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:34 pm

i agree i like grudzielanek and always have. i dont know why we havent heard and rumors involving john smoltz or brad penny coming to cleveland. i just think you have to get a starter before you dump money on a outfield bat or middle infielder because those two things you can get during the season.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:52 pm

Karl Ravech had this to say today in his chat. Erick (P-Hoenix): Where do you see O-Dog ending up....

Karl Ravech: cleveland
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby jellis » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:12 pm

I dont see hudson happening, the indians haven't even shown any interest in him.. I really hope we can talk Fla into giving us an arm, at this point I am not sure who else out there even really could use a catcher like shoppach. FLA, Bos, NYM?

I feel liek the longer it takes to trade SHoppach his value lowers as people look more in depth at him and see the Huge red flags,(his K's and his thrown out runners)
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:31 pm

Boston remains an option for Shoppach. They have the offense to deal with his K's and the Monster is a great tool for righthanded pull hitters. They also seem to value defense as a whole more than just throwing out runners (just look at Varitek's numbers). And last but not least there is the history between the Red Sox and Shoppach.

At this point though it seems that Shapiro will only trade him if he gets a great offer. Something that would involve either Jed Lowrie or Justin Masterson/Michael Bowden (all those guys are unlikely to be included in a trade) or one of the arms in Florida.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:17 am

JP_Frost wrote:Boston remains an option for Shoppach. They have the offense to deal with his K's and the Monster is a great tool for righthanded pull hitters. They also seem to value defense as a whole more than just throwing out runners (just look at Varitek's numbers). And last but not least there is the history between the Red Sox and Shoppach.

At this point though it seems that Shapiro will only trade him if he gets a great offer. Something that would involve either Jed Lowrie or Justin Masterson/Michael Bowden (all those guys are unlikely to be included in a trade) or one of the arms in Florida.


I would keep an eye on the Red Sox. They are one of the front runners for Texiera. If they sign him, how about some sort of Shoppach & a RP for Youkilis deal? I could see something like that. Remember, if Hafner doesn't make a comeback, we have very little pop.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:48 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Boston remains an option for Shoppach. They have the offense to deal with his K's and the Monster is a great tool for righthanded pull hitters. They also seem to value defense as a whole more than just throwing out runners (just look at Varitek's numbers). And last but not least there is the history between the Red Sox and Shoppach.

At this point though it seems that Shapiro will only trade him if he gets a great offer. Something that would involve either Jed Lowrie or Justin Masterson/Michael Bowden (all those guys are unlikely to be included in a trade) or one of the arms in Florida.


I would keep an eye on the Red Sox. They are one of the front runners for Texiera. If they sign him, how about some sort of Shoppach & a RP for Youkilis deal? I could see something like that. Remember, if Hafner doesn't make a comeback, we have very little pop.



Seriously Yoooooooooooooooouk in Cleveland, I don't care how good he is, one its not going to happen no matter what they do with Tex and I lump him with guys like Pedroia, Beckett, Paplebon, and Drew, guys I never want to see don an Indians uniform.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TheWord » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:53 am

They'll move Youk to 3rd if they sign Tex.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:52 am

Yeah Youk isn't happening.


Harang would have been a perfect fit for this club and a deal of Shoppach, Laffey, and Francisco/Gut probably could have gotten him pre-Hernandez deal. But that ship has pretty much sailed now unless we're willing to part with LaPorta.


Boston remains one of the few options left that really could use a catcher. I know I'll get ripped on for this....but I'd possibly look into a Shoppach and Looch for Masterson, Lugo, and cash deal. They need a 4th outfielder and Looch would be a decent bench player for that team. Plus they'd take on the $4M if they can dump Lugo. They'd still need to kick in some money, but he'd be an 'ok' 2B for us next year. Had a .355 OBP and stole 12 bases in only 82 games last year. Definately not worth $8M but if you consider we'd be dumping Looch's $4M you're only adding $4M....which is around what a stop-gap would be. Then get some money to cover his 2010 salary and it's not terrible. Masterson could step into the rotation then and fill another big hole.


Not likely to happen (lowell would likely be included first)......but throwing ideas out there.


Florida and Houston remain possibilities....as does Toronto I suppose (though only Rios is an ideal guy from them and he's close to untouchable). Florida seems set to go with Baker as their starter......but wants a solid backup. They're looking at Rodriguez....but that's gonna be pretty pricy for them. Shoppach even in arbitration will be cheaper.....and better. They have some nice young arms. I'd love to get Hermida from them or Cantu but that's a long shot.

Houston really doesn't have much though REALLY could use a catcher. The wigginton idea seems dead. Valverde isn't needed anymore. Tejeda if they pick up a huge chunk would be ok....but not for Shoppach. Maybe if they part with Pence, Berkman, or Oswalt.....but no way that happens.


If we can open up more negotiations with the Mariners they could be a fit. They could use a catcher (johjima stinks and Clement is a DH, not a true catcher anymore). Beltre is of interest there. Maybe Bedard even. Both guys are pricy though so it'll be a bit tough fitting them into the budget....but possible.....


I'd still be opoen to a Belliard deal with the Nats. Has been solid the last 2 years and played well his last stint with Cleveland. Only makes $1.9M this year. Tim Redding would be a cheap inning eater....though not really an improvement over what we have. A Zimmerman deal would be nice too.....but not sure how likely that would be.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:28 am

I don't think Boston is willing to part with Masterson. They have some question marks in the rotation and even if their starting pitching is healthy, they can easily use him to set up for Papelbon. Lowrie is of the most interest to me since he can play 2nd or short pretty well, has good on base skills and also has some pop. The problem is that unless the Red Sox get a SS elsewhere, Lowrie is their man.

as for the other teams Hermie mentioned:

- Toronto

Would've been a nice fit if Marcum or McGowan were healthy. I'd still be willing to take a chance on McGowan who was outstanding in 2007, but there are so many risks there that I'd want another play thrown in. Maybe Aaron Hill is a possibility. The problem with Toronto is that noone really knows what they'll do next year. To me it's clear they should rebuild, but some reports have them chasing high priced free agents, so I don't know how willing they are to part with their major league talent.

- Florida

I've already talked about their starters. It would be amazing if we can get one of them, but it's very unlikely. Hermida would be nice, but I'm not too sold on him yet ... not at the cost of Shoppach (same goes for Cantu who is a horrible defender). They have some guys in the minors who could be interesting mainly Volstad and Tucker. Volstad however is on the verge of making the team out of ST and Tucker might be a little too unproven to trade for (or atleast, not straight up for Shoppach).

- Houston

Another team that should rebuild but clings to prior success. Their farm system is very weak and they have alot of fringe average players in the majors. Tejada is no no in my book -- both his power and plate discipline are rapidly declining and his defense is very questionable. Add to that his salary and he's just not very favorable to have on this team. Pence is solid, but also raises some red flags. Oswalt won't be traded. Besides, I'm not sure how badly they want to trade for a catcher with Towles still in the mix and recently drafted Jason Castro making good progress.

- Mariners

Also not sure about them wanting trade for a catcher. Johjima was awful last year, but pretty solid the 2 years prior to that. He's also a good defensive catcher, though he's starting to look more like a backup at this point. Clement may still see some time behind the plate, and they have Adam Moore who is a very solid prospect almost ready for the majors. Even so, I'm not sure what I'd want from them. Obviously Beltre would fill a need, but it seems that the M's asking price is pretty steep, and considering he has a partial no trade clause and is in the last year of his contract, it will be difficult to move him. If I were the M's I'd hold on to him till the trading deadline or otherwise just take the draft picks.

I'm also open to a Belliard deal, but I'd rather go with Grudzielanek who is way better defensively and won't hurt you offensively. If Shapiro can sign him to a 1-year worth about 3-4MM I think he'll be a decent stop gap.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:43 am

Yeah, Moore is a nice prospect, but still hasn't played above AA....so they could use someone else. Johjima is a decent enough stopgap til he's ready I suppose.....and he does make a lot so likely just to stick with him for now.


You hit the nail on the head with the Astros. No clue what that team is planning to do. Towles still has talent but was terrible last year.


Another team to throw out there is the Mets. Shapiro and Minaya did just come together to complete a 3-team deal, plus there's rumors that they've talked about moving Schneider to Boston, but only if they can get another catcher via trade or on the open market. I know no one wants Castillo.....but what about possibly Daniel Murphy and/or Jon Niese? Murphy could see some time between LF and 2B for us. He's got great plate discipline. Niese is a former high school teammate of Chad Billingsley out in Defiance, Ohio (how did that team not win the Ohio state championship??). He's young and raw, but a guy that could make this rotation out of ST.


Again, not likely or really that ideal.....but some more options to throw on the fire.....


And I too don't see Masterson getting moved....but they have added to their pen this winter and could still add to the rotation. He's moveable with Buckholtz and Bowden still there, and they did pick up Wakefield's option so 4 spots are set (Lester, Dice-K, Wake, and Beckett).
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TheWord » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:31 pm

I wonder what the odds are that Florida would be willing to part with Matt Domiguez and Anibal Sanches in a package for Shoppach would be.


Shoppach and Trevor Crowe/Brantley for Sanchez and Dominguez.

Not likely, but something I would like to pursue. Florida has a GREAT glut of prospects and young starting pitching, I'd like to see us give up Shoppach for something worthwhile both now and in the future.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:03 pm

I'd love to get Dominguez from them....but not sure how likely that is either. And do they 'need' Shoppach that much? Not really if they're planning on going in with Baker as the starter. Though I think a Backer/Shoppach combo would be great back their for the Fish.

Sanchez worries me....though there's no denying he's got a great arm when healthy. Wouldn't part with Brantley, but maybe Crowe.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:58 pm

shoppach is arbitration eligible so florida will not take him in any deal unless your going to take someone back that makes money on floridas ball club.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:06 pm

I agree somewhat Cardiackidz. Hermida is arbitration eligible. They may take a swap of some kind (for Choo maybe?). But then again, Shoppach is only gonna get about $2M in arbitration. If they go after a catcher on the open market they'll have to pay that guy at least $2M (and a lot more if it's Rodriguez)....
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:24 pm

I think our biggest need now is pitching, in particular an inning eater. I was looking at another site talking about pitching and started to think that we know we have question marks all the way from #3 to #5. Yet, I think our issue is not the question marks, rather the innings they can go.

On Tony's show, they commented on the competition for starter (and reliever) and thus some may be trade. At one point, I felt fine taking Reyes as #3 and letting Laffey/Sowers battle for #4 and Huff/Lewis and even Miller battle for #5. You figure that out of these battles, we would get decent starters as someone will break through. Yet, the bigger question is those that win the battles, are they ready to give you 6+ innings for 30 games (180+ innings).

Carmona and Lee are streched out (each going 200+ innings in one of the last 2 years)
Laffey and Sowers are relatively streched out (going 160-180) - yet only one will probably start the season and other one fail.

Reyes - has been not been streched with being a reliever and injured 140/110 or so innings the last two years. No way, Cleveland takes him up to 200 with how we watch inning counts. Thus, not a good #3 starter

Huff/Lewis/Miller all have been limited in the past few years.

Do we want a pitcher with an injury that may or may not make it a full year?

Yet, who do we get that won't cost an arm and a leg?

Randy Johnson is going to need to limit his innings (now he is 45)
Brad Penny - if healthy than he may get up to 160-180 after just 100 last year
....

For our budget, everything is a question mark.

I think you package two pitchers for someone. I don't mind the rest maybe Laffey, Huff, Lewis and Miller battling for the last two spots (if we trade Sowers and Reyes) as Westbrook would come in and relieve one of them towards year end. Yet, having even our #3 be a question mark in Reyes, leaves our bullpen stretched in 6-9 innings at year end. Luckily we solidified it because we will count on them if we do nothing.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I agree somewhat Cardiackidz. Hermida is arbitration eligible. They may take a swap of some kind (for Choo maybe?). But then again, Shoppach is only gonna get about $2M in arbitration. If they go after a catcher on the open market they'll have to pay that guy at least $2M (and a lot more if it's Rodriguez)....



Yeah but then as long as Shoppach keeps going, his salary will just keep going up. Baker did well in 199 at-bats last year and they got a guy by the name of Brett Hayes who reached AAA this year and will be 25 next ST and he could end up platooning with Baker out of ST, so trading with them more than likely won't happen.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:40 pm

I agree our rotation could be hurt by the young guys and the innings they'll be able to go.....but being a small market I don't see us being able to truly throw much money around to free agents. A trade could help though.


Yeah I don't see a trade with Florida happening either for Shoppach really....
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:39 pm

Consigliere wrote:I think the Indians will sign a stop gap 2B, like a Grudzalinek (sp) and there final big move is a big trade to get a starting pitcher.


I think you are correct in your assessment. None of the names being bandied about on the blog enthuse me a great deal at SP. Like many others, any trade for Kris Benson that involves his wife moving in with me works. My wife says she will go along if I increase my insurance several fold.

I also think it possible we can pick up a good, short term 3B if certain things happen in the FA market. Interestingly enough, recent Yankee signings may have made them a viable trade partner. :s_drinks
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:05 pm

It's being said Baltimore's GM is trying to trade Daniel Cabrera before the tender deadline tonight, if he has options remaining, the Indians should give the O's something to get him and maybe the Indians can turn him around in AAA.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:12 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Interestingly enough, recent Yankee signings may have made them a viable trade partner. :s_drinks


How? I thought so to with CC and Burnett going with Wang and JoBa, yet after that it is just Hughes, Kennedy and Igawa. Maybe Gut would have gotten us Hughes or Kennedy as they don't have any use for them anymore with long-term contracts to vet pitchers.

However, they have each struggled at the majors and are not proven. Hughes rebounded in AFL .. may not be suited to the big pressure of NY. Maybe ... yet I don't think it would have solidified our pitching staff without raising questions. Our need is either for a can't miss prospect like a Kershaw that won't happen or a veteran which will cost a few prospects.

I would be open to adding either Hughes or Kennedy (especially if they still have options) yet at what cost? What do we have that they want? They needed Gut, yet he is gone. The may want a reliever, yet would you give up Perez? They would want someone proven versus a prospect. They could use Shoppach, yet that would take away our best trading chip without solidifying anything.

Maybe we could have done Shoppach, Gut and Garko or Meloan for both Kennedy and Hughes (figuring one would hold down a spot). Yet, I doubt they would have done this.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TheWord » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:27 pm

Phil Hughes for Kelly Shoppach?

Sign me up.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:47 pm

I have been going around the depth charts and trying to figure out what can be done .... and there isn't much that would be interesting other than Shoppach (and change) to NY or Boston for Masterson, Buchholz, Hughes or Kennedy.

Yet, the problem we still have with problem as Sowers and Laffey in the breaking in period where you don't know if they will make it or not. That is where all those players are to ... possibly other than Masterson who did well in the pen has broken in the best (at least ERA wise).

And, do you really think Wedgie likes the idea of a rotations of Reyes, Laffey, Hughes/Masterson ... I think this is the best we can do. Unfortunately they both needed an OF and would have probably taken Gut (heck Boston lists Van every as their 4th/5th outfielder). So what would have Shoppach, Gut and Meloan given us???

And, if you really like top prospects who have struggled ... maybe we can through a Laffey/Sowers and Barfield at Reds for Bailey so they can shift Phillips to SS.

Heck one of these top prospects are bound to payoff ... yet it will be a rough April/May until they do.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:08 pm

No Thanks on Bailey, watched the guy pitch and he is an absolute mess
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:13 pm

TheWord wrote:Phil Hughes for Kelly Shoppach?

Sign me up.


Kinda what I was thinking as well. Just idle speculation but seems like a good match to me. Shapiro and Cashman probably have different ideas about this but it doesn't look too extreme to me. :s_thumbsup
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:17 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:It's being said Baltimore's GM is trying to trade Daniel Cabrera before the tender deadline tonight, if he has options remaining, the Indians should give the O's something to get him and maybe the Indians can turn him around in AAA.


I'm with you if we can use Dellucci. :s_drinks
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:26 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:It's being said Baltimore's GM is trying to trade Daniel Cabrera before the tender deadline tonight, if he has options remaining, the Indians should give the O's something to get him and maybe the Indians can turn him around in AAA.


I'm with you if we can use Dellucci. :s_drinks


Hmm could be tough with them having enough adequate OFs, maybe we add one of the LHs and get Luke Scott back?
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:32 pm

why the hell would they want an outfielder that cant hit or throw and is slow? unless you release dellucci you arent getting rid of him.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:38 pm

cardiackidz wrote:why the hell would they want an outfielder that cant hit or throw and is slow? unless you release dellucci you arent getting rid of him.



Its called a joke cardiac, calm down before you have heart attack, no one is going to take Delluci, we all know this, but really in my opinion, he is not a bad LH bat to come off the bench and a 4th OF, has some power, I know its only one instance while he has been here, but let us not forget who it was that smacked a 3-run HR in Yankee Stadium last year to give Joba his first reg season loss and the eventual victory.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:51 pm

Hughes does not solve our MOR starter issue at all. We need a reliable, proven innings eater who has a history of solid performance. Obviously it would be Jake Westbrook, but since he won't be back 100% until 2010, we need a one year stop gap at least. I don't think the guy is available in FA......but may be in a trade. While Hughes is a talent and better than our young starting pitching options battling for the #5, to me his acquisition just makes things more cloudy than clearer.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby carnegie44115 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:56 am

Well Ty Wiggington was non-tendered and is now a FA, so if shap wants to go the one-year stop gap route, I think Wiggington is the best option at 3B and hopefully Hodges is ready at the end of 09/beginning of 2010. Also Daniel Cabrera was non-tendered, so a FA as well, so if the Indians wanted to try to figure him out for the future not the MOR SP for 09, it be worth the shot. Does anyone know since these two were going into one of their arbitration years, does the salary get determine by arbitration or is the guy just like any FA, negotiate and set a price?
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:56 am

Didn't think that Phil or others would fit our MOR role. Yet, if we have enough young guns at the 3,4,5 roles someone will break through. We may sacrifice some at #3, yet our #5 should be better than the many other teams. -- Funny Madthinker also said something about this at another site earlier Friday (didn't notice it till today).

I just don't see who else is out there ... we can try Penny or Johnson yet it is still not a #3 role.

Maybe we can trade Shoppach to Boston or NY to get two stud pitchers maybe Kennedy or Masterson and someone else at A ball. If anyone is going to overpay, one of them will as they have no catching prospects at the upper levels.

Then we take this headline pitcher (someone we don't have at AAA - sorry Huff and Lewis are not headliners and Rondon is still a bit far away) and trade them and change (possibly Hodges) to Houston for Rodriquez or San Diego for Young. If Parelta is moving to 3rd, Hodges becomes available. We could even throw in Giminez leaving us Toregas or Sowers/Laffey who may do better in the NL. We may need more (particularly for Young) yet it is a better starting offer (stud pitcher) than what we have now to replace either #2 guy.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 am

Consigliere wrote:Hughes does not solve our MOR starter issue at all. We need a reliable, proven innings eater who has a history of solid performance. Obviously it would be Jake Westbrook, but since he won't be back 100% until 2010, we need a one year stop gap at least. I don't think the guy is available in FA......but may be in a trade. While Hughes is a talent and better than our young starting pitching options battling for the #5, to me his acquisition just makes things more cloudy than clearer.


Allow me to play devil's advocate. I believe that Hughes is a 2-3 in upside. He only has to be a 3 until Westbrook comes back. While the pitcher that you describe is ideal, there is a limited pool of those pitchers available. It is even fewer when you consider the teams that can actually use our trading chips. You know I am a talent whore. It is all about upside. If Miller stays in the pen, then we should look at upside. Short term risk for potential long term gain. What the hell are a few clouds anyway? :s_biggrin
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:43 am

carnegie44115 wrote:Well Ty Wiggington was non-tendered and is now a FA, so if shap wants to go the one-year stop gap route, I think Wiggington is the best option at 3B and hopefully Hodges is ready at the end of 09/beginning of 2010. Also Daniel Cabrera was non-tendered, so a FA as well, so if the Indians wanted to try to figure him out for the future not the MOR SP for 09, it be worth the shot. Does anyone know since these two were going into one of their arbitration years, does the salary get determine by arbitration or is the guy just like any FA, negotiate and set a price?


I do not disagree that Wigginton is an option but when i look at him I see utility that can fill in at 3B. I just don't see an everyday 3B. I could be wrong about this. I haven't seen him play 3B to any extent but when I have he looks to be somewhat lacking defensively. Just does not seem instinctive or real athletic. As far as I know, he is now an ordinary FA just like the others. Arbitration is not an issue.

I'm not sure Cabrera won't be lost in the crowd. I know he has mechanical issues that are not made any easier by his size. It has been rumored he is a bit of a head case, as well. I think his freedom is a result of unfulfilled expectations that project to continue. Just my opinion.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:52 am

To the point above, it is hard to fill the #3 role. There is not enough of those pitchers out there. Look at what happens

1) You have a bunch of top pitchers that are on the downside of their careers (Johnson, Hampton, Byrd and others) that are at #4,5 roles

2) You have a bunch of young pitchers coming in starting at 4/5 slots and will either break out or not.

3) There are only a few teams with a solid proven 1-3 rotation and they are usually contenders (like NY and Boston who have 1-4 locked up) who don't want to give something up or a team that wants a something pricey in return

4) The #3 role is usually a 3-6 year vet who is still working out issues to move up ... someone like Westbrook. These pitchers are usually tied up for long term contracts or arbitration, not free agents. Plus, those that are free agents, are looking for 15+ million (Silvas, ect....)

5) Either that pitcher makes it and breaks into the top 1 or 2 roles (and want to be paid like one) or is a bottom feeder. Something like Lee. He was around for awhile and would have been a #4,5 starter, yet broke out last year to #1,2 role. Silva hit his pay day early and now you don't even want him as a #5.

The 3 role is in the middle and sucks for a reason ... they are either on their way up (and can't be bought), on their way up but too many flags (like a Sowers where after 1 year they can easily flame out) or on their way down after a good career and want too much $s to justify.

Unfortunately, we have Sowers/Laffey and Reyes. One of the 3 in a year would make it in a year (maybe Reyes or Laffy) where we would feel comfortable with a Huff/Lewis/Rondon/Miller fighting it out for #4/5 roles (like in 2010). Yet we are in a transition where the market is flooded with unproven talent or proven talent from prior years (like Byrd).

Think of it this way, last year when we had Carmona, Sabathia, Westbrook as proven commodities and Lee/Sowers/Laffey. Would a team in our position today want Lee/Sowers/Laffey as their #3 (based on last year's questions)? Would we wanted to give up Westbrook last year where we thought we could contend? We wouldn't because we know a pitcher is one step from injury and we need 1-4 as solid as we can.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:26 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Allow me to play devil's advocate. I believe that Hughes is a 2-3 in upside. He only has to be a 3 until Westbrook comes back. While the pitcher that you describe is ideal, there is a limited pool of those pitchers available. It is even fewer when you consider the teams that can actually use our trading chips. You know I am a talent whore. It is all about upside. If Miller stays in the pen, then we should look at upside. Short term risk for potential long term gain. What the hell are a few clouds anyway? :s_biggrin


I want someone reliable and proven to start the season at #3. For as talented as Hughes is, he has yet to prove himself and also stay healthy. Same with all the other young guys we have as candidates to fill the back of the rotation. You are risking disaster relying on a bunch of unknowns for spots #3, #4, and #5 when on top of that you have an unknown really with #1 Lee and #2 Carmona as you don't know what to expect out of them next year. That is why it is so important to get that rock at #3. A guy you can pencil in for 190-200 innings, 10-13 wins, and a low 4s ERA at worst. Yes, this guy is not really available in FA, but that's why we need to dig deep in the trade pool possibly and use some of our assets to acquire him.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby cardiackidz » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:35 am

you cannot use an asset like kelly shoppach and your top prospects for guys like phil hughes. we need a legit top of the rotation starter to do anything in october. i always thought the indians needed that well before they needed a closer or a middle infielder. shapiro should have been all over dan haren last year at this time.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby jellis » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:25 pm

cardiackidz wrote:you cannot use an asset like kelly shoppach and your top prospects for guys like phil hughes. we need a legit top of the rotation starter to do anything in october. i always thought the indians needed that well before they needed a closer or a middle infielder. shapiro should have been all over dan haren last year at this time.


he was all over dan haren last year we finished second in the sweep stakes much like we did for carlos quentin, heres my question where do you find a solid number 3 right now.

Outside of NYY and BOS who out there needs a catcher who is our main chip to get a number 3 type?

I just cant see fla because of money issues getting involved too much

SF would be nice but they have Posey on the way

Tor is the team that interests me, some one brought up mcgowan earlier and he seems like a solid 3 with upside. I just dont know if they can trade him since marcum is out again, but then again they have a solid catcher in AA

The mets could use a catcher, but they are still trying to add another SP

Its a sellers market and I think its going to get ugly trying to add an extra arm
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TheWord » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:46 pm

The day Kelly Shoppach would bring a top of the rotation starter, I'd be all ears.

I feel that's unrealistic at best in this market, and with his ability.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby MickS » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:00 pm

It would be smart for Shapiro to be patient. I expect BOS to re-sign Varitec. So we enter the season and look for three things:

1. Proof that Martinez is healthy and productive.
2. Varitec to show that he is indeed entering a period of serious decline.
3. See how healthy Posada is and if he can still be an everyday catcher.

If 1. plus either/or 2. and 3. come to pass, then it is time to act. Best case scenario, both Posada and Varitec need to be replaced and the bidding war for Shoppach begins.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby TheWord » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:58 pm

4. Monitor Carlos Santana and his eventual major league impact.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:22 pm

Consigliere wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Allow me to play devil's advocate. I believe that Hughes is a 2-3 in upside. He only has to be a 3 until Westbrook comes back. While the pitcher that you describe is ideal, there is a limited pool of those pitchers available. It is even fewer when you consider the teams that can actually use our trading chips. You know I am a talent whore. It is all about upside. If Miller stays in the pen, then we should look at upside. Short term risk for potential long term gain. What the hell are a few clouds anyway? :s_biggrin


I want someone reliable and proven to start the season at #3. For as talented as Hughes is, he has yet to prove himself and also stay healthy. Same with all the other young guys we have as candidates to fill the back of the rotation. You are risking disaster relying on a bunch of unknowns for spots #3, #4, and #5 when on top of that you have an unknown really with #1 Lee and #2 Carmona as you don't know what to expect out of them next year. That is why it is so important to get that rock at #3. A guy you can pencil in for 190-200 innings, 10-13 wins, and a low 4s ERA at worst. Yes, this guy is not really available in FA, but that's why we need to dig deep in the trade pool possibly and use some of our assets to acquire him.


Hey, we don't have to agree. You know I respect your opinion but I think your quest for the perfect 3 may well be folly. There are assets that I want to protect. I am not willing to compromise the long term for a short term gain. Especially true if I feel that patience may solve the problem. I am not sure the pitcher is available in trade at a payroll cost the tribe can afford with the assets I feel the Indians can reasonably yield without jeopardizing the future franchise stability. Trade all the Shoppachs, Franciscos, Crowes and LH starters/RH relievers but leave the high ceiling position prospects and young starters out of the equation. If Shapiro can meet your needs and mine, cool. If not, then I'll take the Hughes risk/reward if it is available. :s_devil
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:27 pm

jellis wrote:
cardiackidz wrote:you cannot use an asset like kelly shoppach and your top prospects for guys like phil hughes. we need a legit top of the rotation starter to do anything in october. i always thought the indians needed that well before they needed a closer or a middle infielder. shapiro should have been all over dan haren last year at this time.


he was all over dan haren last year we finished second in the sweep stakes much like we did for carlos quentin, heres my question where do you find a solid number 3 right now.

Outside of NYY and BOS who out there needs a catcher who is our main chip to get a number 3 type?

I just cant see fla because of money issues getting involved too much

SF would be nice but they have Posey on the way

Tor is the team that interests me, some one brought up mcgowan earlier and he seems like a solid 3 with upside. I just dont know if they can trade him since marcum is out again, but then again they have a solid catcher in AA

The mets could use a catcher, but they are still trying to add another SP

Its a sellers market and I think its going to get ugly trying to add an extra arm


+1 but far more eloquent than my rationale to TL.
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby jellis » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:29 pm

spent some time looking at teams that at the MLB level could consider shoppach

Ari- Chirs Synder is the starter but SP wise the best we could get would be Doug Davis

LAA- interesting team to me have been shopping there catchers and if they lose out on Tex they will need to add power somewhere, maybe a weaver or saunders. There number one spec Adenhart sepnt all year in AAA. I wont lie always been a big Saunders fan. Plus the deal could get large has they have 3 guys for 2 positions in Figgins, kendrick, and brandon wood
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Re: what else is shapiro going to do?

Postby petes999 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:46 pm

I posted this elsewhere ... yet decided it belonged here ... to figure out what we should do .. what is the value of

1) what is the value of Shoppach?

2) What is the value of a #3 starter

3) What is the value of top notch prospect starter ready for April 1 (Miller,Kennedy type)


#3 starter - should we use Vasquez as an example?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Baseball America website ... Karl (Chicago): If you were ranking the White Sox farm system today, would any of the new arrivals crack the top 10? If so, where would they fit?

Jim Callis: I think we're going to put Flowers at No. 4 behind Beckham, Viciedo and Poreda. Lillibridge may jump in ahead of Getz. Gilmore and Rodriguez will be in the 11-30 range.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Getz was 6 without the influx of new talent.

So Mills/Weglarz (supposedly Santana > Flores in BA rankings so we don't need to go that high)
then maybe a package of Huff/Hodges/Rondon (7-8 range) and Stevens/Meloan (high teens)

Doable ....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoppach - I don't think there is a lot of comparison out there. I think Laird is very low end and Molasco was the #10 prospect for Detroit (maybe a bit depleted system). Yet, Laird only plus was a defensive specialist. That is like saying Toregas could get value in a trade. There are alot of defensive catchers yet few that have the stick as well. That is where Shoppach value goes up. Maybe we can't get a #1 or #3 prospect, yet maybe a #5 prospect.

I look at Dunn and say a .240 hitter with 40 HRs is looking for the money he is as an OF, there is good value in Shoppach who can hit .260 and 25-30 HRs in a full season at catcher.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the value of a #1-3 prospect starter .... There is usually no comparisons here as they are usually only traded for top players in a multilevel deal ... like a CC or others.

Yet, Boston has been approached by other teams for Bucchulz, Bowden or Masterson for their catcher (one of Texas ones and another team).

And, hasn't Homer Bailey been associated with trades for mediocre OFs -- Dye (.290 30-35 HR average) but getting a bit old ??? And Bailey was #2 behind Bruce as of last year in the Reds system.

So there is value yet isn't like it never happens without giving up a CC or Lee

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus, do we want to do a Shoppach and change for a Bailey, Hughes, Kennedy, Masterson, .... depending on who wants to sell?

Do we want to do a Mills/Weglarz - Huff/Hodges/Rondon (7-8 range) and Stevens/Meloan (high teens) for a #3.....

Or, would Huff, Stevens and Brantley type gets us a pitching prospect at #2 in the systems like Masterson (actually #4 due to Boston's depth)

Sorry for highjacking this thread ... yet we started down this pay thought it would be an interesting discussion
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