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Gutierrez On the Way Out?

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Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby npc29 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:06 pm

The Mets are working to acquire a setup man for new closer Francisco Rodriguez — and that setup man would be another closer from the American League West.

J.J. Putz could be headed to the Mets in a three-team trade with the Mariners and Indians, according to major-league sources.

Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first-base prospect Mike Carp would be in the deal, as would Indians outfielder Franklin Gutierrez.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8922 ... tings-blog


If we are trading Franklin Gutierrez, for Endy Chavez, I'm going to scream my head off.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby Jake Taylor » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:21 pm

It sounds like Gutierrez for Heilman with hopes of turning Heilman back into a starter.

Please Mr. Shapiro, just don't.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:33 pm

Something different from Castro on the Hot Stove blog,

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/mets_close_to_landing_putz_in.html
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:46 pm

this seems legit, doing some checking on stats smith is interesting he really improved this year but not sure if hes an improvement. Valbuena was just voted as best plate dsicpline in seattles minors by BA. He had a really bad year in 2007, but every other year in the minors hit well over 300
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:50 pm

jellis wrote:this seems legit, doing some checking on stats smith is interesting he really improved this year but not sure if hes an improvement. Valbuena was just voted as best plate dsicpline in seattles minors by BA. He had a really bad year in 2007, but every other year in the minors hit well over 300



Maybe a little to do with being 21 and at AA? Defense seems to been pretty good too at 2B.

Nice throw to get Vlad out at 1st,
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200809223530845&c_id=sea
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby endlesssleeper » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:52 pm

Wonder where Heilman and Reed will be heading?
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:53 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:
jellis wrote:this seems legit, doing some checking on stats smith is interesting he really improved this year but not sure if hes an improvement. Valbuena was just voted as best plate dsicpline in seattles minors by BA. He had a really bad year in 2007, but every other year in the minors hit well over 300



Maybe a little to do with being 21 and at AA? Defense seems to been pretty good too at 2B.

Nice throw to get Vlad out at 1st,
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200809223530845&c_id=sea


found a really old article he was the 6th best spec in 2005 in the lower league mentioned in the same breath as Asdrubal who had been there the year before not as slick a glove but still good was the comments his bat was thought to be legit. Another guy killed by the Seattle rush job?

I take this as a good sign in my digging mets fans are happy, but really hate to lose Smith, if yo uare sad to see him go even though you get Putz then I take it to mean SMith is solid
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:53 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Wonder where Heilman and Reed will be heading?



I bet there will be more than just those 2 right now, I kind of expect us to get Heilman is it too much to hope we move Mjucia in this deal some how
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby Jake Taylor » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:55 pm

Much better :D I like Smith more than Heilman, and we're adding in a solid second base prospect to our system. We're not exactly full of second base prospects.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:55 pm

i dont buy it, cleveland will get something they can use if they deal franky. heilman is a back end starter and the tribe has plenty of those. i might be wrong but i just dont think shapiro will make a deal like that.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:59 pm

here is the old scouting report on smith when he was the mets number 9 spec in 2007 before he was promoted to the majors, Before you bash Heilman look at his stats hes been screwed by the mets and has never been given a chance to start which is what he has wanted to do. I was looking at his WHIPs and they have been fantastic every year before last year, he is a change osf scenery guy. IF you get an extra arm, 2B spec with good plate discipline, and a solid reliever for Franky I call it a steal


Strengths: Smith is unique because he throws much harder than typical sidearmers, and his 89-91 mph fastball has sinking, fading action. It tops out at 94. He stays on top of an 81-83 mph, two-plane slider that destroys righthanders. They hit just .104 against him in pro ball.

Weaknesses: The key to Smith reaching his ceiling is his changeup. He never needed it in college, but he does in pro ball to keep advanced lefthanders honest. They went 10-for-20 (.500) against him in his brief Double-A stint.

The Future: If he can make his changeup an average pitch, Smith should be an excellent setup man. Without it, he'd be just a righthanded specialist. Chad Bradford filled that role for the Mets in 2006, and his departure could allow Smith to make the team at some point in his first full season. He'll probably open in Triple-A.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:59 pm

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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:03 pm

I thought the whole mess with the Heilman situation in NY was the Mets were worried about injury issues with him as a Starter.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:05 pm

if you think about it is franky that big of a loss?
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:08 pm

cardiackidz wrote:if you think about it is franky that big of a loss?



Not in my mind
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:12 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:
cardiackidz wrote:if you think about it is franky that big of a loss?



Not in my mind



I think we are in agreement
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:18 pm

Or is Heilman's problem because he has a 5.93 ERA as a starter in the bigs and a 3.52 ERA as a reliever? The farther he kept going up the ranks in the minors, the more his numbers declined, made starts in the bigs and got hit pretty good, and so the Mets turned him into a reliever and up until this year he was doing a lot better.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:24 pm

Gutz is a great asset as one of the best OFs from a defensive standpoint, but until he learns how to the off-speed stuff, he can't be an impact player. Now I am not sure this would really help much from value, but if Jeremy Reed is involved he may be coming to us and there is your defensive player who can play at least LF and CF, not sure about RF.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:24 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:Or is Heilman's problem because he has a 5.93 ERA as a starter in the bigs and a 3.52 ERA as a reliever? The farther he kept going up the ranks in the minors, the more his numbers declined, made starts in the bigs and got hit pretty good, and so the Mets turned him into a reliever and up until this year he was doing a lot better.


hard to say his crap year was when he stayed in AAA and its pretty commons for players hwo dont get called up to have a bad year in a repeat at AAA
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:25 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:Gutz is a great asset as one of the best OFs from a defensive standpoint, but until he learns how to the off-speed stuff, he can't be an impact player. Now I am not sure this would really help much from value, but if Jeremy Reed is involved he may be coming to us and there is your defensive player who can play at least LF and CF, not sure about RF.



I love Gutz defensively kid could be a gold glove winner for the next decade but he hasnt shown me he can consistently hit in the majors
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:29 pm

I don't think Heilman would be coming to Cleveland, and why would we want Valbuena if we allready have Barfield?
But Joe Smith?,,,,,Very interesting!
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:33 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I don't think Heilman would be coming to Cleveland, and why would we want Valbuena if we allready have Barfield?
But Joe Smith?,,,,,Very interesting!



Because Valbuena is a 22 yr old prospect, and Barf is a near 26 yr old that has I think fallen out with management, if we do indeed get this guy and let's say he makes the team, that is two 23 yr olds up the middle for the Indians
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:34 pm

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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:08 am

i dont know anything about Valbuena. does anyone know anything about this player?
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:16 am

cardiackidz wrote:i dont know anything about Valbuena. does anyone know anything about this player?



This is a link off of the clevelandfan board that member Watt found,

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/mlb/playe%20...%20om-p.12297

And his stats on baseball-reference,

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/valbulu01.shtml

From what I have read, he is a defensive minded 2B who got it together this year at the plate starting at AA, then moved on to AAA and was a Sept call-up this year. Was in the running for the starting 2B as they were thinking of moving Jose Lopez to first if necessary.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby npc29 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:18 am

This team is in trouble if they are going into next year with David Dellucci as their fourth outfielder... I'm just saying..
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:22 am

npc29 wrote:This team is in trouble if they are going into next year with David Dellucci as their fourth outfielder... I'm just saying..


4th outfielder could easily be Trevor Crowe (unless he is moved before next season)
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:24 am

npc29 wrote:This team is in trouble if they are going into next year with David Dellucci as their fourth outfielder... I'm just saying..



Well that may be the case, of course Carroll can play LF, hopefully the Indians can dump Looch, but it seems unlikely, maybe they have a spot for a 5th OF and Crowe gets it for his ability to play all three OF spots. Though we were only able to carry 5 OFs on the roster last year because of Hafner being on the DL, someone has to go then.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:26 am

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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:26 am

here is a lot of old info on V f

• Riggleman raved about the defense shown at second base by September callup Luis Valbuena, who came to Seattle with a reputation more for offense than defense. "He's done a nice job out there so far," Riggleman said. "And he's got a chance to be a pretty good hitter."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Signed out of Venezuela in 2002, Valbuena has been able to control the strike zone throughout his minor league career and he has maintained that his season. Through 321 at-bats the 20-year-old had 43 walks and just 41 strikeouts and was hitting .290/.373/.405. He was also fifth in the league with 21 stolen bases.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A year after placing Asdrubal Cabrera and Osvaldo Navarro on this list, Everett offered another excellent middle infielder in Valbuena. While not as slick defensively as his predecessors, Valbuena has more offensive potential and reminds Everett manager Pedro Grifol of Ray Durham. He led the NWL in homers (though 11 of them came at cozy Everett Memorial Stadium) and RBIs while ranking fourth in steals.

Valbuena's quick bat and line-drive swing should produce average power for his position. He's average to a tick above defensively. He makes routine plays consistently, covers ground and turns the double play well.

"Valbuena is more of an offensive player," Yakima manager Jay Gainer said. "Their park lends to hitting, but that doesn't take anything away from him. He's a solid hitter."
Last edited by jellis on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby Jake Taylor » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:29 am

Very solid acquisitions.

Like some above stated, I'd love to dump Dellucci and get Crowe up here, but that probably wouldn't happen until June or so when we'd be able to eat Dellucci's salary because he was hitting right at the Mendoza-line.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:34 am

with just one year left on his deal Dellucci has got to be a salary dump before the season starts.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:36 am

cardiackidz wrote:with just one year left on his deal Dellucci has got to be a salary dump before the season starts.



It is possible, we did jettison Fultz for Breslow and that was not 4 M I know but it was still like 2.5 wasnt it? It depends on how the young guys perform.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby jellis » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:37 am

apparently valbuena was in the running for seattles 2b gig, so at worst hes a fall back for the indians at 2B if they strike out in other deals, plus Smith sounds like a harder throwing Newson which gives them even more pen depth, this also more or less means the death of either mujica or jackson right? I mean now both cant make the 25 man roster so one would have to be DFA and pass through waivers
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby npc29 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:39 am

He better be a fallback and not their idea of getting "Creative" when it comes to filling a hole.. I mean... hes 23! you can't depend on that.

This deal will only make sense if there are a few other corresponding moves.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:49 am

The Indians bullpen just got much deeper with Joe Smith. He will provide a much different look.
Here's a list of the names. (Maybe some of these names could be used in another trade)

K. Wood
R. Perez
R. Betancourt
J. Smith
J. Lewis
M. Kobayashi
E. Mujica

Not to mention,,,,J. Meloan, A.Miller, T. Sipp, J. Stevens
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby Jake Taylor » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:50 am

Does this officially end talk of us going after someone in the Rule 5 Draft?

I believe our roster would now stand at 40, correct?
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:55 am

Holy shit.

This came outta nowhere and I am in the process of doing my due diligence to get something up on the two players....although since Smith is already a major leaguer I am more into looking at Valbuena since most people don't know about him.

Not sure what to think, but to get a Jeff Nelson-like potential late inning reliever and a possible solution at 2B for Franklin Gutierrez? Whoah.

We have a surplus of RH relievers, and I think we may now focus on filling that MOR starter need by packaging some of the surplus with Shoppach in a deal.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:57 am

Jake Taylor wrote:Does this officially end talk of us going after someone in the Rule 5 Draft?

I believe our roster would now stand at 40, correct?


Roster is at 39. And the Indians are almost certainly not drafting anyone, and were not prior to this deal.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:57 am

Jake Taylor wrote:Does this officially end talk of us going after someone in the Rule 5 Draft?

I believe our roster would now stand at 40, correct?


That's correct.
But only until the Marte/Dellucci for Brian Roberts deal is announced.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:58 am

if this kid is are big offseason move to get a middle infielder im going to be really upset. there has to be more going to happen. keith laws chat tomorrow should be really good.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:59 am

Use Raffy B with Shoppach and I think we can get a decent MOR.

As for the 40 man roster, its at 39 again as the Woods signing isn't official and he can't be counted on it yet. Luis and Joe take the spots of Mastny and Frankie G.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby dnosco » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:00 am

It seems like people are neglecting that Smith is a sidearming righty who is susceptible to lefty hitters, making him, as BA said in their 2008 handbook, at best a sixth or seventh inning situational guy.

Hey, Gutierrez, if he remains as he is, is no big loss. But to trade him for a situational righty and a questionable prospect from Seattle? Sorry, that ain't helping us now or in the future in my mind. Valbuena may be more than I think (splits look good in the minors this year; http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/cgi-bi ... ?pl=472528) but if I am trading Gutz I am trading him for something that really, really helps now. While Heilmann struggled this year he was really good before this year and, this year, still held righties to a .220 average. Sorry, I would rather have Heilmann than Smith. You get the righties out and, historically, Heilmann does just as good vs. righties and lefties, something I don't believe Smith will EVER be able to say based on his arm slot.

Smith's splits:
BA SLG OBP AB H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB K
Smith VSL .320 .460 .443 50 16 23 5 1 0 3 11 7
Smith VSR .192 .302 .286 182 35 55 4 2 4 23 20 45

Pretty pathetic against lefties, exactly the BA report.

My assessent: Gutz for a situational righty (who you usually get for low free agent dollars or as a minor league invitee) is a bad use of Gutz in a trade. If our plan is to start Valbuena or some combination of Valbuena, Cabrera and Carroll on the middle of the infield of an AL team plus have Peralta at third, we are going to get eaten alive offensively. While I like Valbuena's age, age doesn't always mesh with potential. He might turn out to be more than a slap hitter (although his splits and bunts (22) this year and his OPS in the majors says he is just that) right now, given that we have Carroll, Valbuena is no more than insurance at Buffalo. I mean, look at Cabrera's offense so far. Even with his late surge in 2008 he is questionable as an offensive ML player. Defense, sure. But his offense is sub-standard, even at SS and certainly at 2B.

This smacks of Shapiro trying to get the last piece of the puzzle and, in saying that, of the Scott Stewart trade where we traded an outfield prospect who was assumed to not be much (Ryan Church) for a lefty specialist who was thought to have upside. Remember how that turned out? Also remember Giles for Rincon? Not Shapiro but Hart but, indeed, the same type of result: not getting what you expected and then living with it for years to come.

Yeah, most may write it off to me being negative but this trade is not good in the long-term future of the Cleveland Indians and, unless you value righty specialists more than I do, not to the short-term interest of the Indians, either.
Last edited by dnosco on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:03 am

cardiackidz wrote:if this kid is are big offseason move to get a middle infielder im going to be really upset. there has to be more going to happen. keith laws chat tomorrow should be really good.



Or really bad depending on what your opinion is about him. Keith Law=ESPN employee :s_wacko
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:04 am

well i read keith law because he talks about other teams besides the yankees and red sox in his chats.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby MickS » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:06 am

I'm not happy about losing Gutierrez (would rather it had been Francisco) but I like what I'm reading about Valbuena and Joe Smith is solid. I think this might mean the end of Eddie Moo's tenure with the Tribe. Mujica's out of options and I don't see how he fits.

Can't wait to see how Nosco weighs in on the dealings of our "idiot" front office.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:06 am

cardiackidz wrote:well i read keith law because he talks about other teams besides the yankees and red sox in his chats.



I know and some of his stuff is good, wanted to bring some of the ESPN sucks thread into it.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby MickS » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:07 am

MickS wrote:I'm not happy about losing Gutierrez (would rather it had been Francisco) but I like what I'm reading about Valbuena and Joe Smith is solid. I think this might mean the end of Eddie Moo's tenure with the Tribe. Mujica's out of options and I don't see how he fits.

Can't wait to see how Nosco weighs in on the dealings of our "idiot" front office.



OOPs! I posted too late. Of course it was a terrible deal if Dennis says so.
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:10 am

edwin jackson just got delt to the tigers
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Re: Gutierrez On the Way Out?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:16 am

cardiackidz wrote:edwin jackson just got delt to the tigers


For what???

EDIT: Saw on another board it was Matt Joyce for Jackson.
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