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Hudson seeking 5/50

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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:01 am

carnegie44115 wrote:
jellis wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to criticize people on a message board that is here for discussing ideas about a team that for most of us have grown up loving. If you don't agree with what people are saying, then counter-argue and bring something to the discussion rather than a lame remark.


Apparently the lame remark went over your head. I have made numerous comments in this discussion and I find little point in providing any serious arguement to a posting that is so ludicrous that is does not merit discussion which is my point. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. BTW, I have watched the Indians win a world series so maybe I object to newbies throwing out poorly thought out ideas to hear themselves talk. :s_empathy



What I fail to see is what you think is so ludicrous about points I am making which are things that are points that have been said by other people or make sense for a small market team like the Indians. The Indians have to be more creative when trying to sign premier players or being more cost-effective with their budgets, the players don't exactly have the same allegiance to teams like they did in 1948, so they cost more money. I am not here to merely write something to hear myself, you don't like what I write, then get over it.


I think the point is Castillo is ludicrous he makes a 6 mil a year till hes 37 and 2B do not age well there is a difference between being creative and just not being realistic cause a guy played well 3 years ago when he was not in his mid 30's is not a good option. He hasnt been healthy and he hit 240 and was worse in VORP value then a Carroll, this team would be better off with Carroll then Castillo.


Ok from the Indians perspective of having budget restraints I thought getting a decent 2B for his career except for last year at 6 mil per year would be a better idea instead of 10 or 12 mil per year for Hudson. Also since he was hurt last year, we could possibily be low because you are dealing with the Mets, like I said earlier. Also about the age factor, I believe the Indians would have him for three years for 18 mil, that means he would turn 36 in Sept of the final year in his contract. So at worst we would have a 2B at 35 for most of that final year. This was also the first year he played under 122 games since 1998.


Hudson is not worth it at all. The issue is castillo hasnt shown anything in awhile and like i said name one decent 2B past the age or 33 it doesnt happen. It would be a complete waste of 6 mil plus a spec. If you want to spend 18 mil for 3 years I would rather sign Felipe lopez who is younger and played well in the second half. He has issues but would be better than Castillo and can play a few positions. Would I actually give hime 3 years 18 mil, no way. I still bet you can sign a lopez to a 1 or 2 year deal at 3.5 to 4 mil a year. 6 mil a year for castillo is ludicrous when he hasnt shown much in awhile. I read the paper every day on the subway here ion NYC. I saw Castillo play. I have a lot of exposure to him and the almost universal view is that he is just about done
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:37 am

jellis wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:
jellis wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
carnegie44115 wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to criticize people on a message board that is here for discussing ideas about a team that for most of us have grown up loving. If you don't agree with what people are saying, then counter-argue and bring something to the discussion rather than a lame remark.


Apparently the lame remark went over your head. I have made numerous comments in this discussion and I find little point in providing any serious arguement to a posting that is so ludicrous that is does not merit discussion which is my point. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. BTW, I have watched the Indians win a world series so maybe I object to newbies throwing out poorly thought out ideas to hear themselves talk. :s_empathy



What I fail to see is what you think is so ludicrous about points I am making which are things that are points that have been said by other people or make sense for a small market team like the Indians. The Indians have to be more creative when trying to sign premier players or being more cost-effective with their budgets, the players don't exactly have the same allegiance to teams like they did in 1948, so they cost more money. I am not here to merely write something to hear myself, you don't like what I write, then get over it.


I think the point is Castillo is ludicrous he makes a 6 mil a year till hes 37 and 2B do not age well there is a difference between being creative and just not being realistic cause a guy played well 3 years ago when he was not in his mid 30's is not a good option. He hasnt been healthy and he hit 240 and was worse in VORP value then a Carroll, this team would be better off with Carroll then Castillo.


Ok from the Indians perspective of having budget restraints I thought getting a decent 2B for his career except for last year at 6 mil per year would be a better idea instead of 10 or 12 mil per year for Hudson. Also since he was hurt last year, we could possibily be low because you are dealing with the Mets, like I said earlier. Also about the age factor, I believe the Indians would have him for three years for 18 mil, that means he would turn 36 in Sept of the final year in his contract. So at worst we would have a 2B at 35 for most of that final year. This was also the first year he played under 122 games since 1998.


Hudson is not worth it at all. The issue is castillo hasnt shown anything in awhile and like i said name one decent 2B past the age or 33 it doesnt happen. It would be a complete waste of 6 mil plus a spec. If you want to spend 18 mil for 3 years I would rather sign Felipe lopez who is younger and played well in the second half. He has issues but would be better than Castillo and can play a few positions. Would I actually give hime 3 years 18 mil, no way. I still bet you can sign a lopez to a 1 or 2 year deal at 3.5 to 4 mil a year. 6 mil a year for castillo is ludicrous when he hasnt shown much in awhile. I read the paper every day on the subway here ion NYC. I saw Castillo play. I have a lot of exposure to him and the almost universal view is that he is just about done



Then that is that about Castillo then, Lopez would be intriguing but I believe his agent his Boras, I could be wrong, but if I am not, there is no way you will get a one yr deal out of him, since he thinks a lot of his players just walk on water, like his demands for Lowe are out of this world for a 36 yr old SP. Plus I think the Cards want to really bring him back, I keep seeing some rumblings on other sites about there being a third team interested in Furcal, the Indians have been thrown out there as the team, it be nice, but doubtful for his demands.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:13 pm

yeah if you pay a lot rather pay for furcal I agree only concern with furcal is injuries and an up and down career, still I would sign lopez to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal. Its worth the risk he can play multiple positions and always has had talent. Maybe getting cut made he wake u pa bit. I would not be opposed to Crede for a 2 year deal also but not sure how that might work. maybe the Indians could give him a deal like the tigers gave maggs. I don't mean money wise, but maggs contract was made so it protected the tigers in chase if a reoccurrence of his knee trouble.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:27 pm

jellis wrote:yeah if you pay a lot rather pay for furcal I agree only concern with furcal is injuries and an up and down career, still I would sign lopez to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal. Its worth the risk he can play multiple positions and always has had talent. Maybe getting cut made he wake u pa bit. I would not be opposed to Crede for a 2 year deal also but not sure how that might work. maybe the Indians could give him a deal like the tigers gave maggs. I don't mean money wise, but maggs contract was made so it protected the tigers in chase if a reoccurrence of his knee trouble.



I think that is exactly what Boras wants for Crede, probably wants 3 years I imagine.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:52 pm

The Indians were interested in free agent second baseman Orlando Hudson and shortstop Rafael Furcal, but apparently have moved on. Furcal is said to be close to signing a four-year deal with Oakland.



http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... nd_pa.html
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:06 am

jellis wrote:yeah if you pay a lot rather pay for furcal I agree only concern with furcal is injuries and an up and down career


ha, yeah but those are two kinda big concerns......
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:17 am

jellis wrote:I think the point is Castillo is ludicrous he makes a 6 mil a year till hes 37 and 2B do not age well there is a difference between being creative and just not being realistic cause a guy played well 3 years ago when he was not in his mid 30's is not a good option. He hasnt been healthy and he hit 240 and was worse in VORP value then a Carroll, this team would be better off with Carroll then Castillo.


hmm, ludicrous huh? And you say my points are out there?

First off, Castillo will only be 35 when the contract runs out, not 37 (well, he'll turn 36 in September of his contract year). He was 32 last year. In 3 years he'll be 35 (32 plus 3 does not equal 37).

Secondly, Hudson is gonna be making $10+M til he's 35, and he's NOT that much better than Castillo. Also, some 2B's do age well. Jeff Kent has been playing at a high level into his late 30s. Biggio was a great 2B til his mid-30s (hit over .290 and had an OBP near .390 as a 35 year old).

And if you read my ORIGINAL post on the subject, it stated that either the Mets would pick up some of Castillo's contract or give up another player such as Maine in any Castillo deal. I wouldn't make the deal just to pay Castillo $18M for 3 years. You could probably get them to throw in $6M (or $2M and take Dellucci), thus paying him only $4M/year over the next 3.....you'd be paying him the same as Beltre for only 1 year. Still frees up the mets to go after Hudson then.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:34 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:I think the point is Castillo is ludicrous he makes a 6 mil a year till hes 37 and 2B do not age well there is a difference between being creative and just not being realistic cause a guy played well 3 years ago when he was not in his mid 30's is not a good option. He hasnt been healthy and he hit 240 and was worse in VORP value then a Carroll, this team would be better off with Carroll then Castillo.


hmm, ludicrous huh? And you say my points are out there?

First off, Castillo will only be 35 when the contract runs out, not 37 (well, he'll turn 36 in September of his contract year). He was 32 last year. In 3 years he'll be 35 (32 plus 3 does not equal 37).

Secondly, Hudson is gonna be making $10+M til he's 35, and he's NOT that much better than Castillo. Also, some 2B's do age well. Jeff Kent has been playing at a high level into his late 30s. Biggio was a great 2B til his mid-30s (hit over .290 and had an OBP near .390 as a 35 year old).

And if you read my ORIGINAL post on the subject, it stated that either the Mets would pick up some of Castillo's contract or give up another player such as Maine in any Castillo deal. I wouldn't make the deal just to pay Castillo $18M for 3 years. You could probably get them to throw in $6M (or $2M and take Dellucci), thus paying him only $4M/year over the next 3.....you'd be paying him the same as Beltre for only 1 year. Still frees up the mets to go after Hudson then.


I never said he was great my point was the all time greats slowed down at this point, and Castillo was not even close to a great.

I did mess up the age I thought he was a year older, but doesnt change the fact he is not a good option. The mets arent trading Maine so you can forget that. Why would they trade a solid pitcher when they lack starters.

Sure they would pay some money but that is because Castillo is done and they would love to be rid of him. Biggio was only good when he switched positions those years were in the OF, because the wear of 2B had begun to hurt his production, his last year at 2B was not good. Yes Kent did play well offensively, but he is an exception not the rule. I really think you must have never seen Castillo play at all. His bat speed is way down, he has slowed and looked very clumsy even he came back. I dont get how you can defend a old, declining 2B. He hit 245 with his bat slowing has little to no power, a SLG of 305. His OPS+ was 77.

At the end of the day tell me the last 2B who rebounded after 32 in the majors, it doesnt happen. Especially when its a player like Castillo who has never been in great condition. The wear and tear of the game catches up to everyone.

The mets would more than likely try Murphy at 2B and would offer to pay half his salary this year, either way this trade makes you worse this year and really hurts down the road
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:27 pm

They may be willing to give up Maine (who is coming off injury) if we include Laffey in the deal. They're gonna add a starter this winter most likely and a high end one. So Santana, free agent, Pelfrey, Laffey, and Niese would still be a pretty good rotation for them, and that's if they don't bring back Perez or Martinez as well. Maine will likely be their number 4 starter next year...they can afford to give him up. Not likely, but possible especially if it's Shoppach and Laffey plus a prospect (they are said to be looking for a catcher).

Also, Biggio was still play 2B at the age of 35. He didn't move to the OF til 2003 when he was 37. Was the starting 2B up til then.

Castillo was never in great condition? The guy stole over 60 bases one year. You don't steal that many bases and win 3 gold gloves if you aren't in great condition. The wear in tear caught up to him this year, but as you could see from his fielding splits, he was one of the best defensive 2B's (zone rating wise) when he came back healthy. I also wonder if the 2 years he was playing in Minnesota and that thing they call a field didn't contribute to his knee troubles this year. Staying off the turf should help him.

Daniel Murphy is a possibility at 2B for the Mets....but my guess is they go after a guy like Hudson (or possibly even Furcal) and then platoon Murphy in LF again.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:57 pm

John Maine and Luis Castillo?

I'd rather see Huff and Barfield.

Maine has one pitch he can throw effectively, his fastball, which he throws almost 70 percent of the time. His offspeed stuff is well below average and he rarely if ever throws his curveball. Nothing excites me about a fastball/changeup guy who's strikeout totals decreased while he walk numbers increased, coming off minor back surgery in the offseason.

Castillo, which has already been proven, is a one time solid 2B who is declining and increasingly more injured.

Nothing about these two guys makes sense for the Indians IMO. If Castillo has less than 3 years on his deal...maybe.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:23 pm

yeah 3 year deal really is the nail in the coffin for me

If it was one year I would do a delluci for Castillo trade we take on more cash but get a player who might bounce back they cut a little salary and could waive Delluci
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:47 am

I doubt they'd 'waive' Dellucci. He was good last time he was in the NL East and would be a good platoon/pinch hitter for them in LF (I don't see them getting Manny but you never know).

Huff has yet to pitch in the MLs....give me Maine. We have a need for right-handed starters in our entire system (we've got Rondon and that's about it). Maine would be a great #3 ahead of Reyes and Sowers/Huff/Lewis/Laffey.

Maine doesn't have the greatest of stuff, but he's a good pitcher nonetheless (and woulnd't call him a fastball/changeup guy when his changeup is his 4th best pitch). And what back surgery? Thought all he had was a bone spur removed from his shoulder....
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:35 am

Hermie13 wrote:I doubt they'd 'waive' Dellucci. He was good last time he was in the NL East and would be a good platoon/pinch hitter for them in LF (I don't see them getting Manny but you never know).

Huff has yet to pitch in the MLs....give me Maine. We have a need for right-handed starters in our entire system (we've got Rondon and that's about it). Maine would be a great #3 ahead of Reyes and Sowers/Huff/Lewis/Laffey.

Maine doesn't have the greatest of stuff, but he's a good pitcher nonetheless (and woulnd't call him a fastball/changeup guy when his changeup is his 4th best pitch). And what back surgery? Thought all he had was a bone spur removed from his shoulder....


my only concern is switching leagues with Maine and on top of that I cant see the mets selling low on Maine, he was their best pitcher 2 years ago and an all star, he slots in as there 4 or 5 this year. I would all be for aquiring him, but those would be my only concerns
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:59 am

I don't see Maine getting traded either, but just throwing more ideas on the fire during this very slow off-season. Even switching leagues maine would be as good or better than a lot of options...not to mention cheaper salary wise (think he's a first year abritration guy this year). I'd rather have Maine switching leagues than Sowers and Laffey at 4-5 or bringing in a guy like Byrd.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:25 pm

no more bryd please, he should go to SD with his pitching style he would be perfect for that park, I still think Sowers could be very good in SD its a contact pitchers dream park
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:48 pm

Ha, I agree. Though I think Atlanta would be a good spot for Byrd. SD would be nice...but they're trying to cut payroll. Atlanta could really use Byrd for 1 year at around $7-8M since Hudson will be recovering from surgery for part of the year.

I also still think Sowers can be good here in Cleveland.....but we'll see.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:52 pm

TheWord wrote:John Maine and Luis Castillo?

I'd rather see Huff and Barfield.

Maine has one pitch he can throw effectively, his fastball, which he throws almost 70 percent of the time. His offspeed stuff is well below average and he rarely if ever throws his curveball. Nothing excites me about a fastball/changeup guy who's strikeout totals decreased while he walk numbers increased, coming off minor back surgery in the offseason.

Castillo, which has already been proven, is a one time solid 2B who is declining and increasingly more injured.

Nothing about these two guys makes sense for the Indians IMO. If Castillo has less than 3 years on his deal...maybe.


The sad thing about your comment is you are probably right. Skillwise, except for plate discipline, Barfield is probably superior offensively and defensively to Castillo. And we don't have to pay $18 million to get that performance. I think it is unlikely that Maine has much upside until he can develop into a pitcher. :s_drinks
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:30 am

Until Maine develops into a pitcher? He's better than all of our starters but Lee and Carmona.....

As one 'fan' on here wrote, he supposively throws his fastball 70% of the time.....every pitcher (except a knuckleballer) throws their fastball 70% of of the time (or a variation of their fastball). He IS a pitcher now. And I woulnd't call Barfield as good defensively as Castillo. And plate discipline is HUGE when neither guy has a ton of power.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:39 pm

at this point barfield might be better than castillo thats how much the defense has declined
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:00 am

His defense hasn't declined that much. Injured knees slowed him down. He's in much better shape now and better defensively and offensively than Barfiled at this point in their careers.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:57 pm

Hermie13 wrote:His defense hasn't declined that much. Injured knees slowed him down. He's in much better shape now and better defensively and offensively than Barfiled at this point in their careers.


How can you prove he is in better shape, theres no way to say that otuside of his commitment to better shape and alot of players claim then falter on that. Castillo range is gone Barfield is defiantly the better 2B at this point defensively
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:21 pm

We'll see. Will say it again, don't want and never said I wanted Castillo on the Tribe. Just that there's a fit with the Mets and us on a trade based on needs and such.


Castillo's Zone Rating after he came back from his injury would have been the BEST of any 2B in the league last year. Could just be a total coincidence......but I'm sure that getting his knees healthy were what led to the improvement.

Also what should be noted about Castillo, won 3 straight Gold Gloves from 2003-2005 with Marlins, then goes to the Twins in 2006 and 2/3rds of 2007 where they play in a dome on turf. Wasn't til this happened that he really started to see a decline in his defense and his knees started acting up. The damage could be done.....but I think he'll rebound this year and continue on the defensive success he had the last part of the season. His OBP took a nose-dive....but getting back into the groove of hitting should help as well.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby TheWord » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:08 pm

It's amazing how long this argument has gone on for a guy nobody wants on the Tribe.
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:18 am

ha, I know. If there was any sort of moves being made we could talk about that...... :s_bored

Hopefully once the winter meetings get underway there will be more to talk about
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Re: Hudson seeking 5/50

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:32 pm

As mentioned on our show last night, Peralta is playing winter ball for the first time in his career (well, at least since 2004 as I did not research prior to that season). With him playing 3B almost exclusively out there, the Indians must deem it pretty important to get a look at him right now at the position. Really seems like a move this coming season is coming of him to 3B, and obviously would happen if they acquire a 2B or SS this offseason.
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