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Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:33 am

roberts wont happen Baltimore wants a SS and we don't have one to give, on the philly front they dont need a catcher Lou marson should make that team this year and is one of there top specs. I really think Shoppachs value is not as great as once thought, not a lot of teams need catchers and Shoppachs bad throwing mechanic plus historic K rate are going to hurt his value. Fla might be our best bet in the NL and Bos in the Al
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:32 pm

Asdrubal Cabrera is a SS we have to give. Problem is, they shouldn't give him up for Brian Roberts.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby MickS » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:46 pm

I disagree that "Cabrera is a SS we have to give". It's the consensus opinion tha Peralta will not be able to be a career SS. Jhonny will have to move, if not this year, then pretty soon. And who else do we have to replace Peralta at SS other than Cabrera? I think Asdrubal is one of the 3 or 4 untouchables on this team.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:27 pm

I agree, I was just saying Cabrera is the SS they would want in return.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:32 pm

Yeah they want asdrubal it wont happen deal is dead. I proposed the Donald and Headly ideas cause this team I think is going to have to be creative to fill holes. I keep looking ta other teams depth charts and trying to figure out a deal that works and its hard to do with out thinking outside of the box. Guys like roberts just arent going to happen unless teams asking prices go way down
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:22 am

TheWord wrote:I don't see why we shouldn't believe it. It's been Angelos' MO pretty much his entire tenure.

Roberts is not a realistic option with Angelos as a GM, he thinks he's going to get a king's ransom for a one year rental. It's time to move on. They know they aren't going to resign him, it's never stopped them before.

The problem is, teams like Seattle and Houston have given in to Angelos' requests in the past by giving up much more than they should...which strengthens his position even more.

People are always going to overpay for people like Roberts, I'm thankful the Indians aren't one of them.


Angelos isn't the GM.......he's the owner (macphail is the GM). Angelos has gotten less involved in recent years. He was totally against trading Bedard but opened up to the idea and let Macphail make the movies to help the team. I can see the same thing happening this winter.


If the O's don't get Texiera...I could see them moving Roberts for Garko. They've been rumored to like him and he'd be a great fit for them. Cheap and under control for 4 more years. I'm not a fan of moving him.....but for Roberts I'd do it. Garko and Laffey (plus a lower prospect maybe) could probably get you Roberts. Could move VMart to 1B and use Shop behind the dish. I'm not a fan of this as I think Victor should stay behind the plate, but for Roberts I'd do it.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:26 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TheWord wrote:I don't see why we shouldn't believe it. It's been Angelos' MO pretty much his entire tenure.

Roberts is not a realistic option with Angelos as a GM, he thinks he's going to get a king's ransom for a one year rental. It's time to move on. They know they aren't going to resign him, it's never stopped them before.

The problem is, teams like Seattle and Houston have given in to Angelos' requests in the past by giving up much more than they should...which strengthens his position even more.

People are always going to overpay for people like Roberts, I'm thankful the Indians aren't one of them.


Angelos isn't the GM.......he's the owner (macphail is the GM). Angelos has gotten less involved in recent years. He was totally against trading Bedard but opened up to the idea and let Macphail make the movies to help the team. I can see the same thing happening this winter.


If the O's don't get Texiera...I could see them moving Roberts for Garko. They've been rumored to like him and he'd be a great fit for them. Cheap and under control for 4 more years. I'm not a fan of moving him.....but for Roberts I'd do it. Garko and Laffey (plus a lower prospect maybe) could probably get you Roberts. Could move VMart to 1B and use Shop behind the dish. I'm not a fan of this as I think Victor should stay behind the plate, but for Roberts I'd do it.



if they are asking for carmona and Asdrubal. Sowers, garko, and a low spec wont cut it

Garko value is down and Sowers value is minimal
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:28 pm

who said trade Sowers and Garko?
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:36 pm

Hermie13 wrote:who said trade Sowers and Garko?



my bad laffey and garko at this point they are basically the same for trade value
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:29 pm

heres a random never going to happen deal but figure lets try

tribe trades
Shoppach C
Guttieriz OF
Sowers/Laffey/ Lewis SP
Mills/Hodges

Kc Trades
bill Butler
Zach greinke

its possible but unlikely especially cause I think Kc would want more. the reasoning is KC likes our OFs, they had the second lowest amount of Hr's last year and Shoppach would help that and improve the position a lot. It gives them a cheaper replacement pitcher, a hitting spec in the butler mold. greinkes name has been out there not sure if KC is really willing to part with him, but he is arb eligible and more expensive plus he does have his baggage. KC seems to have given up on butler but I for one still think his bat is legit. Like I said an in division trade is unlikely but just throwing fuel on the fire of ideas
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:35 am

Why do we want Billy Butler?

Don't we already have him playing 1B?
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:47 am

Yeah I'm not a fan of Butler at all. And not the biggest fan of Grienke. i'd LOVE to get him.....but not for what it'd cost.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:46 pm

If we get any SP from KC it has to be Gil Meche
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:06 pm

hmm, not the biggest fan of Gil Meche either. Might as well sign Garland if you gonna do that. Not gonna cost you much more in salary plus you don't have to give anything up for him.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:40 pm

Hermie13 wrote:hmm, not the biggest fan of Gil Meche either. Might as well sign Garland if you gonna do that. Not gonna cost you much more in salary plus you don't have to give anything up for him.



Garland will cost you at least one if not two draft picks if the Angels offer him arby, then I think with the FA market being what it is this year, Garland will get more than a 3 yr contract at $11 M a year which is what Meche is going to make.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:04 pm

Garland is a type B....so will cost us zero draft picks........also NO player costs a team 2 draft picks. Not even type A's (the team 'gets' two picks but only 1 from the team that signs the player).

Garland will get more....probably 3-4 yr at $12-13M. But you don't have to give up a ton of prospects to get him. Not saying go after Garland, but we shouldn't be going after Meche. If you're gonna go after a guy making $11M, we should go after Harang in cincy (I actually like this idea). Shoppach, Francisco, and S. Lewis for Harang (probably too much on our part actually)....
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Garland is a type B....so will cost us zero draft picks........also NO player costs a team 2 draft picks. Not even type A's (the team 'gets' two picks but only 1 from the team that signs the player).

Garland will get more....probably 3-4 yr at $12-13M. But you don't have to give up a ton of prospects to get him. Not saying go after Garland, but we shouldn't be going after Meche. If you're gonna go after a guy making $11M, we should go after Harang in cincy (I actually like this idea). Shoppach, Francisco, and S. Lewis for Harang (probably too much on our part actually)....



Thats right about the draft picks, thats my mistake on that.

Harang I would like for the tribe to go after, they want a LH SP to go with all of their righties and they want a RH bat preferably somewhere in LF or CF. They also would probably take on Shoppach because me being a casual Reds fan, I still am not sold on Hanigan being the starting C.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:54 pm

carnegie44115 wrote:Thats right about the draft picks, thats my mistake on that.

Harang I would like for the tribe to go after, they want a LH SP to go with all of their righties and they want a RH bat preferably somewhere in LF or CF. They also would probably take on Shoppach because me being a casual Reds fan, I still am not sold on Hanigan being the starting C.


ha, no worries. We all make mistakes from time to time....just don't let it happen again!! ;) (just kidding)


yeah I'm not sold on Hanigan either for the Reds. A lot of their fans seem to be....but he reminds me a lot of Einar Diaz. A very good backup and solid defensive catcher, who really has no business starting 120+ games a year behind the plate....
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:21 pm

I know Aaron Harang is set to make $11M in 2009. Anyone know the rest of the contract status for Aaron??

I would have to understand the full contract situation before agreeing to the 'proposed' 4 player trade with the Reds.

EDIT: Ok, found some info for Harang. 31 yrs old. $11M in 09, $12.5M in 2010 and team option in 2011 ($12.5M or $2M buyout).

Not sure if I want to commit to at least $25M in more salary over the next few seasons. How much will that limit our needed flexibility with others in extensions???
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:45 am

Considering Aaron Harang has completely lost it, I doubt adding 25 million dollars in his payroll is the right move.

Just sayin...
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby carnegie44115 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:01 am

Aaron did have a rough year this year, but I would take him over Arroyo if we were to deal with Cinci and get a SP from them. Aaron did manage to finish strong in his last 6 starts with an ERA of 3.07 with a WHIP of 1.15 and a BAA of .247. Not exactly the Harang of 05-07, but much better than before. I saw this year coming though, he had pitch 200+ IP in those last three years and was the workhorse of the staff, you are going to have a year when things aren't going to go right and also he had some injury issues that he grinded through and still managed to make 29 starts.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:25 am

MadThinker88 wrote:I know Aaron Harang is set to make $11M in 2009. Anyone know the rest of the contract status for Aaron??

I would have to understand the full contract situation before agreeing to the 'proposed' 4 player trade with the Reds.

EDIT: Ok, found some info for Harang. 31 yrs old. $11M in 09, $12.5M in 2010 and team option in 2011 ($12.5M or $2M buyout).

Not sure if I want to commit to at least $25M in more salary over the next few seasons. How much will that limit our needed flexibility with others in extensions???


Won't really hamper us that much down the line. Pretty much everyone that needs to be locked up over the next 2 seasons already has been. Garko isn't, but still isn't arbitration eligible yet. Same with Cabrera.

The thing with pitchers is thanks to Meche's contract just about any pitcher you go after will cost $7-8M at the minimum. I'd rather go after a guy that's shown the success that Harang has had.

Not to mention you 'may' be able to pry Encarnacion from them as well......but that's a long shot. Harang having a down year may lower his value some, but he is one year removed from being one of the best pitchers in the NL. As a number 3 in Cleveland he'd be great.

As Carnegie said, he was very good in his last few starts. came back from an injury and got lit up (probably came back too soon). Once he settled in though he was back to his old self.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:28 pm

This IF thing is really beginning to bother me because I don't see a great answer to the problem. There may be a deal with the Rockies that includes Atkins which is not that great but may be the best of the realistic options. Other than that, it might be the best bet for the Indians to look at FA Joe Crede and hope that this injury prone but reasonable talented 3B can hold tegether long enough for Hodges to become ML ready. This is not a good solution but we don't burn any of our tradeables which might be better used for a pitcher or pitchers.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:30 pm

Why would this team WANT Edwin Encarnacion?

A .250 hitter in a bandbox who doesn't play hard all the time, not to mention terrible defensively. Don't be fooled by the power numbers playing in a stadium which resembles most high schools in distance...this dude is NOT good.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:55 am

TheWord wrote:Why would this team WANT Edwin Encarnacion?

A .250 hitter in a bandbox who doesn't play hard all the time, not to mention terrible defensively. Don't be fooled by the power numbers playing in a stadium which resembles most high schools in distance...this dude is NOT good.



um....you do realize that Great American is the same size as Progressive Field right?...in fact, it's a tad larger....

Great American is 3 feet further down the LF line (328 vs. 325), 9 feet further to Left-Center (379 vs 370), 1 foot shorter in dead center (404 vs 405), and the same in both right-center and the RF line (375 and 325, respecitively).

I'd rather get Encarnacion than Atkins. Encarnacion will cost about $4-4.5M less than Atkins. Is younger (He's less than 2 years older than Hodges) and under team control for a year longer.

Encarnacion hit 26 HRs last year....15 at home, 11 on the road. Had 29 doubles.....15 at home, 14 on the road. Still had an OPS near .750 on the road. He's not a product of Great American. And for his career? He's hit 66 HRs....35 at home, 31 on the road with 51 doubles at home, and 52 on the road. And again, an OPS on the road of .760. Yeah, he's better at home, but so is every hitter just about (ESPECIALLY Atkins).

In a better lineup he could put up 90+ RBIs. Even as a .250 hitter (career .266 hitter) he still had an OBP of .340 which is solid for a guy that'll be batting 6th or 7th in our lineup.

The question should be, why would the Indians not want Encarnacion? The list would be shorter for that answer....
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:49 am

The Indians will probably not be able to pry Encarnacion off of the Reds, they really don't have a solid person to put there in the line-up next year.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:19 pm

eh, depends. If we gave them Hodges in the deal as well they could easily use Keppinger at 3B and Gonzalez at SS til Hodges is ready (or Todd Frazier). If they traded Harang they'd also have $11M to play with....could sign Orlando Cabrera or Furcal for SS (they could use a leadoff hitter or #2 guy). Or sign a vet like Blake for 3B.


I don't see Encarnacion coming to Cleveland either....but would help us, and could be of benefit to the Reds as well depending on what we gave up. And not like Shapiro hasn't worked with the Reds before on a trade (or the Indians as an organization).....
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby MickS » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:37 pm

The Reds are desperate to find a replacement for Encarnacion who can actually handle 3B defensively. Yeah, that's the guy we need. I'd rather have Blake.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:42 pm

MickS wrote:The Reds are desperate to find a replacement for Encarnacion who can actually handle 3B defensively. Yeah, that's the guy we need. I'd rather have Blake.


ha, I sure wouldn't. I'd rather save the $6-7M dollars that Blake will cost over Encarnacion and fix other areas of this team. Blake also wasn't that good a 3B. He was ok, but nothing special. Encarnacion is no GGer at 3B, but handles it fine. Would be as good as Jhonny P at 3B if not better.

And the Reds aren't 'desperate' to move Encarnacion off 3B. They really want a big right-handed bat and are exploring all options for it, including Atkins at 3B.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:30 pm

If be fine, you mean bottom 2 in errors and zone rating...then yea, he's fine.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:09 am

And you think Peralta will be much better moving there for practically the first time in 4 years?

Encarnacion is also still only 25 (will be 26 on opening day). He still can improve defensively, and again, for the power and production he provides you can handle a few extra errors.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:39 am

Yes, I do think Peralta would be better.

Do you really think the "power" and "production" would be the same switching from a bandbox field and a weak league?
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:02 pm

He'd be switching to a smaller park and a weaker pitching division by coming to Progressive Field and the AL central....so no, I don't think it'd be the same, probably better.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:18 pm

How is it a smaller park, it's 10 feet deeper in left center and has a 19 foot wall? Left field in Cincy is longer and doesn't have the well either.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "smaller ballpark."
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:23 pm

Great American Ballpark has a higher park factor in:

runs (7th to 17th)

HR (4th to 28th)

2B (11th to 12th)

3B (14th to 25th)
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:56 pm

TheWord wrote:How is it a smaller park, it's 10 feet deeper in left center and has a 19 foot wall? Left field in Cincy is longer and doesn't have the well either.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "smaller ballpark."


Cincy is 9 feet deeper in left center field....not the other way around (379 in cincy, 370 in cleveland). only place cincy is 'shorter' is CF....where it's 1 foot shorter than Cleveland.


Yeah we have the higher wall...but the shorter fence distance makes up for it. Means maybe he'll lose a few HRs, but gain some doubles.


park factor is also dependent on the hitters in it. Reds had a power heavy lineup with Dunn in it. They also have had bad pitchers for most of the time in that park, which leads to more runs and a higher park factor.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby endlesssleeper » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:37 pm

No matter how you try to coat it, Great American is well-known all across baseball for being an extreme hitter's park.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:52 pm

So was Cleveland back in the 90s....but now that our offense isn't what it used to be all of a sudden it's just an average park to hit in......


For instance, Comerica Park was ranked 6th best place for hitters in 2008 according to park factors.......yet it's one of the largest fields in baseball. They had a great offense, which screws these numbers. Comerica is not the 6th toughest place for pitchers to pitch at.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:51 pm

Park factor takes into account home vs. road splits.

Not the overall makeup of the offense, you just won't let anything go when proven wrong eh? I did have the left center field backwards, but regardless the stats do not lie.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:14 pm

come on everyone knows that park in cincy is a bandbox and the wind there helps carry a lot of balls out, Jacobs field was on avg a hitters park before because that was before the big stadium boom, since then most parks are made smaller so there's more HR and excitement so there is more fans, Houston being the classic example its not the offense there its just the change of the current parks
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:13 am

Hermie13 wrote:So was Cleveland back in the 90s....but now that our offense isn't what it used to be all of a sudden it's just an average park to hit in......



This one may have been my favorite. You think the stats are skewed now? How about removing Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez from the 6 and 7 spots in the order. The offense was consistently a juggernaut year in and year out...but NOW the stats are skewed?

Really?
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:57 am

TheWord wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:So was Cleveland back in the 90s....but now that our offense isn't what it used to be all of a sudden it's just an average park to hit in......



This one may have been my favorite. You think the stats are skewed now? How about removing Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez from the 6 and 7 spots in the order. The offense was consistently a juggernaut year in and year out...but NOW the stats are skewed?

Really?


That was my point. The stats were skewed back then too.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:58 am

TheWord wrote:Park factor takes into account home vs. road splits.

Not the overall makeup of the offense, you just won't let anything go when proven wrong eh? I did have the left center field backwards, but regardless the stats do not lie.


Actually, stats lie all the time. Hence why people have so much to argue about in here ;)
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:59 am

jellis wrote:come on everyone knows that park in cincy is a bandbox and the wind there helps carry a lot of balls out, Jacobs field was on avg a hitters park before because that was before the big stadium boom, since then most parks are made smaller so there's more HR and excitement so there is more fans, Houston being the classic example its not the offense there its just the change of the current parks


That is true....but to RF, not LF really. The seats out in LF protect the field from the wind. The 'jetstream' that carries balls in to RF. Encarnacion being a righty pulled most of his HRs to LF. The wind and park didn't help him as much as it did a guy like Dunn and Griffey.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:21 pm

I would be willing to bet that Marte would match Encarnacion in production given a full season, and do it while playing better defense.

I don't want to see that happen.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:36 pm

wow.....well you're a much bigger risk taker than I then, because I wouldn't bet anything on Marte hitting 20+ HRs next year even given a full season.....

Would LOVE to see it.....but I'd much rather put my trust in Encarnacion at the hot corner than Marte....
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:12 pm

Marte could hit 26 Hrs a year.... in the mexican leagues

I think Marte could be a good player down the road on a bad team where he faces no pressure
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby TheWord » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:13 pm

He was on a bad team last year with no pressure and was terrible. That doesn't mean he wouldn't hit 20 home runs.

20 home runs, while hitting .220 and having a terrible OBP.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby gorman8621 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:36 pm

I'd much rather put my trust in someone who isn't Marte/Encarnacion. Why are either being discussed? The point is to get an improvement...not to have the same crap.
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Re: Indians Supposedly Looking at Teahen

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:33 am

TheWord wrote:He was on a bad team last year with no pressure and was terrible. That doesn't mean he wouldn't hit 20 home runs.

20 home runs, while hitting .220 and having a terrible OBP.


Bad teams don't finish .500....
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