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Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

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Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:26 pm

Yawn. Is everyone as excited as I am???
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Actually that should read, "Francisco II, uh, I mean Kipnis signed."

And, no, based on Francisco and Crowe, I am not excited. That being said, I think this is EXACTLY who the Indians were planning on picking with this pick, based on reports at the time. That being said you have to be happy that they got their guy instead of some lesser light. My guess is that they did better than their guy in the first round and, after that, either went intentionally cheap or just didn't have the guy they wanted when they got to that slot and so were left with a lesser talent. I think this the first almost completely documented example of where we knew who the Indians wanted in a slot and they got that guy. It will be interesting to see, going forward, how that guy progresses.

BTW, I think they wanted Chisenhall all along with their first pick last year if that makes people feel any better. No documentation for that, I am just guessing, but it is my gut feeling.

This who draft is a yawner to me, but people will say it is because I am always negative on the Indians' drafts. Well, if you look at the results and the writers who, years after the fact, are piling on that these drafts sucked......
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:08 pm

Crowe or Francisco, six of one...

He's not that talented at anything, IMO. Agree they went cheap after White. Some potential decent picks but Kipnis is topped out physically and skill wise, again IMO. Then again, I'd have said the same thing about Pedroia.

Plus, if you remeber Dennis, they were decided on Sowers early on. Look how well that turned out.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:25 pm

Sowers is interesting. He was an unusual pick at that point in that he wasn't a high upside guy. But look at the first round that year, Rocky:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/20 ... round.html

Aside from Drew and Jered Weaver, how many of those first round guys would you rather have now INSTEAD of Sowers? And look at the guys 7 through 11. Would you want any of those guys hands down over Sowers?

No, that draft is as I remember it. Not a lot of upside unless you wanted to pay big, big money for it. Sowers was safe but a decent pick at that spot. Figures, the one draft we have a high pick and the talent is not that good.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:51 pm

Yeah, I liked Drew but he was asking for too much money. Weaver now for sure but I wasn't convinced at the time. I think what consensus there was at the time was for Homer Bailey. I still think he has more talent than Sowers, but who knows if he learns to bring it into the game.

Sowers in the bullpen, with all of the info posted lately about how well he does the 1st two times through the batting order, could be decent. He doesn't seem to react to pressure very well though. Kinda need pen guys to be able to handle pressure.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby stoike » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:55 pm

dnosco wrote:Sowers is interesting. He was an unusual pick at that point in that he wasn't a high upside guy. But look at the first round that year, Rocky:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/20 ... round.html

Aside from Drew and Jered Weaver, how many of those first round guys would you rather have now INSTEAD of Sowers? And look at the guys 7 through 11. Would you want any of those guys hands down over Sowers?

No, that draft is as I remember it. Not a lot of upside unless you wanted to pay big, big money for it. Sowers was safe but a decent pick at that spot. Figures, the one draft we have a high pick and the talent is not that good.


I literally felt sick to my stomach when they chose Sowers in the first round.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby jellis » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:24 pm

sowers was viewed as a top 10 guy, IO remember gammons saying he would win the most games of any pitcher in round 1 and there were more than few glavine comps at that point
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby artgold » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:21 pm

Kind of early to start my projections, I really make a lot of adjustments the first two years as I see how guys play out with the wood bats.

However, I'll start off by stating he begins my evaluation process as a potential Mark Kotsay. By this I mean a typical season of .280/.330/.410/.740, with a dozen to fifteen HRs, as a CF.

BTW, hope he does as well as Kotsay in the spouse/companion compartment:

http://www.survivinggrady.com/damon4.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... G%26um%3D1
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby stoike » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:27 pm

I do think Sowers was top 10, at least by BA, but his numbers in college (not overly impressive) and lack of dominant stuff made me wonder why he was so highly rated to begin with. I always thought he could be a solid #4 or #5 starter, but never saw him as an ace, or even MOR starter. The #6 pick in the draft is not to be used on a potential #4/5 starter....that is just not how it should work.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:29 pm

Art,

Isn't that Francisco in 2008, or, if he keeps getting PT and picks it up, in 2009? And what if Kipnis can't stay in CF? Doesn't that make him Francisco? He would have to be a helluva, Grady Sizemore-like or better defernsive center fielder with us having power in left and right to make those numbers play, don't you think? None of the scouting reports I read on this guy make he think he will ever be anything above an average defensive centerfielder, if he is even ever that. I see him as a tweener offensively and defensively, in total. I see him as Francisco II.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:49 pm

I think he probably has a bit more pop than Fransisco. Then again most do...
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby artgold » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:40 pm

Dennis, though somewhat statistically similar I see Kotsay as a bit more of a better ballplayer, and Francisco as somewhat of the better athlete. The difference to me is that a Kotsay type starts with the better natural baseball skills, but doesn't really have a great envelope for expansion, while the Francisco type is a little less predictable, could be better or worse than the natural baseball player but will likely have a bit more of an erratic development process.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:00 am

Tony, any idea when Kipnis reports to MV? They are in Batavia tonight and tomorrow, only a half-hour from me...
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby MickS » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:53 am

The Reds picked Homer Baley right behind the Indians pick of Sowers and I remember thinking that Bailey was the guy that we should have chosen. Bailey has been a little better of late but so far that pick hasn't worked out that great for the Reds either.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby tribe9597 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:52 pm

Bailey is 23 and Sowers is 26 so they both still have plenty of time to pan out.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby cardiackidz » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:04 pm

the reds were trying to give homer away last winter.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:22 pm

cardiackidz wrote:the reds were trying to give homer away last winter.


If the Reds are still trying to give him away, Shapiro be making answering the phone and making a deal.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:11 pm

Mahoning starts a homestand tomorrow, and I believe Kipnis will join the team then. I am going on Wed night, so hope to get an early view of him.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby jellis » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:38 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
cardiackidz wrote:the reds were trying to give homer away last winter.


If the Reds are still trying to give him away, Shapiro be making answering the phone and making a deal.



saw homer in person and hes still not great, look like he had zero feel for the strike zone
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:45 pm

Maybe we trade Crowe and Sowers for Bailey?

I wonder how that would go over on this forum and amongst Indians' fans.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby petergriffin » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:52 pm

dnosco wrote:Maybe we trade Crowe and Sowers for Bailey?

I wonder how that would go over on this forum and amongst Indians' fans.



maybe you should wait until you actually hear trade rumors between us and the reds involving any of those players before suggesting trade scenarios off the top of your head
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby jellis » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:33 pm

petergriffin wrote:
dnosco wrote:Maybe we trade Crowe and Sowers for Bailey?

I wonder how that would go over on this forum and amongst Indians' fans.



maybe you should wait until you actually hear trade rumors between us and the reds involving any of those players before suggesting trade scenarios off the top of your head



nothing wrong with throwing stuff out there, we do it all the time. I hardly agree with dennis, but I feel like in general people are getting a bit stand offish with the him. Let eevryone have there piece. You cna argue the crap out of it and thats the fun of a site like this were we are all fans.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:16 pm

jellis wrote:
petergriffin wrote:
dnosco wrote:Maybe we trade Crowe and Sowers for Bailey?

I wonder how that would go over on this forum and amongst Indians' fans.



maybe you should wait until you actually hear trade rumors between us and the reds involving any of those players before suggesting trade scenarios off the top of your head



nothing wrong with throwing stuff out there, we do it all the time. I hardly agree with dennis, but I feel like in general people are getting a bit stand offish with the him. Let eevryone have there piece. You cna argue the crap out of it and thats the fun of a site like this were we are all fans.


Agreed.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby bmonnig » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:01 pm

when/where will Kipnis be starting his career?
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:05 am

Kipnis is in MV, was in uniform tonight and I talked to him some before the game. He is recovering from a minor injury suffered in the College World Series, so no idea when he plays his first game.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:56 am

Tony, what number was he wearing? I'll be there tomorrow.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:48 am

8
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks, Tony.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:05 pm

By the way, he likely won't play for about two weeks. No word on the specific injury, just was told "to expect him playing in about two weeks" from an org source.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:04 pm

Consigliere wrote:By the way, he likely won't play for about two weeks. No word on the specific injury, just was told "to expect him playing in about two weeks" from an org source.


Thanks for the info. I'll be looking out for him in uniform or street clothes, either or.

Cook going tonight, so I'll see if I can try and talk to him prior to warm ups.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:27 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
Consigliere wrote:By the way, he likely won't play for about two weeks. No word on the specific injury, just was told "to expect him playing in about two weeks" from an org source.


Thanks for the info. I'll be looking out for him in uniform or street clothes, either or.

Cook going tonight, so I'll see if I can try and talk to him prior to warm ups.


Good kid. Talked to him in a recent visit and will have a piece posted on him soon. Sort of overlooked from the 2008 Draft.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:07 pm

Consigliere wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Consigliere wrote:By the way, he likely won't play for about two weeks. No word on the specific injury, just was told "to expect him playing in about two weeks" from an org source.


Thanks for the info. I'll be looking out for him in uniform or street clothes, either or.

Cook going tonight, so I'll see if I can try and talk to him prior to warm ups.


Good kid. Talked to him in a recent visit and will have a piece posted on him soon. Sort of overlooked from the 2008 Draft.


You mean the 08 Baseball draft?
The one where the Tribe basically took reaches in almost every round per Dennis??
The one where the Tribe got very little impact talent per Dennis???

Obviously I am not in agreement with Dennis on this topic (the 08 draft) but I also do not think its going to be looked upon as one of the all-time greats in organizational history (as someone else has suggested).

As the 08 draft was the 1st draft with a different decision-maker/ decision-making process in place for the Tribe and it appears the 1st time the Tribe made a concentrated effort to sign as many of their top 20 picks as possible, I think we should all watch this draft class carefully.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby stoike » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:34 pm

First of all, it takes 2-3 years to TRULY know how good a draft was. So far, it appears that the 2008 draft was a very good one. Alas, injures and other happenstance can have a huge impact on how the draft does in reality.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:25 pm

MT,

I think we both like the 2008. You just like it more than me. when you spend boatloads of money you generally have a good draft. The question is NOT whether they will get better players in previous drafts it will be whether those players actually are good enough to be major league contributors. So far, it looks like Chisenhall and House with some other guys as either possibilities or longshots. If that happens it might be the Indians' best draft since they drafted CC.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:06 pm

Talked to Kipnis tonight and I asked him when he looks to finally see the field, "To be honest, I have no idea. Hopefully, sooner rather than later."

Also, a side note on Kipnis, they list him as 6'0".. but he seemed a bit shorter to me. His build reminds me a lot of Crowe, more so than BFran. Take it for what it's worth.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:36 am

A.Zajac wrote:Talked to Kipnis tonight and I asked him when he looks to finally see the field, "To be honest, I have no idea. Hopefully, sooner rather than later."

Also, a side note on Kipnis, they list him as 6'0".. but he seemed a bit shorter to me. His build reminds me a lot of Crowe, more so than BFran. Take it for what it's worth.


See beginning of this thread. Hope that he is more than those two. I am thinking perennial .300/30 2B/20 HR/20 SB, sort of Bobby Abreu-like. Not that I am saying he will get there, I am thinking that is what I would like! :-D
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby artgold » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:23 am

dnosco wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Talked to Kipnis tonight and I asked him when he looks to finally see the field, "To be honest, I have no idea. Hopefully, sooner rather than later."

Also, a side note on Kipnis, they list him as 6'0".. but he seemed a bit shorter to me. His build reminds me a lot of Crowe, more so than BFran. Take it for what it's worth.


See beginning of this thread. Hope that he is more than those two. I am thinking perennial .300/30 2B/20 HR/20 SB, sort of Bobby Abreu-like. Not that I am saying he will get there, I am thinking that is what I would like! :-D


Why not hope for Ruth, with speed???
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:56 pm

One comparison I heard was to a Nate McLouth with more walks.. Kind of interesting.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby jellis » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:11 pm

A.Zajac wrote:One comparison I heard was to a Nate McLouth with more walks.. Kind of interesting.



I could see that, remember mclouth is not that great he is a 270 hitter, 20 hr type who doesnt play a good cf though
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:11 pm

artgold wrote:
dnosco wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Talked to Kipnis tonight and I asked him when he looks to finally see the field, "To be honest, I have no idea. Hopefully, sooner rather than later."

Also, a side note on Kipnis, they list him as 6'0".. but he seemed a bit shorter to me. His build reminds me a lot of Crowe, more so than BFran. Take it for what it's worth.


See beginning of this thread. Hope that he is more than those two. I am thinking perennial .300/30 2B/20 HR/20 SB, sort of Bobby Abreu-like. Not that I am saying he will get there, I am thinking that is what I would like! :-D


Why not hope for Ruth, with speed???


If he had speed, he couldn't be Ruth. I think they would be mutually exclusive. Now, Willie Mays....

BTW, as far as his height, that seems to be the way it is. Guys are shorter, lighter and with slower fastballs after the Indians draft them. Not to hijack this thread but Haley seems to be the one exception to that.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:31 pm

dnosco wrote:
artgold wrote:
dnosco wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Talked to Kipnis tonight and I asked him when he looks to finally see the field, "To be honest, I have no idea. Hopefully, sooner rather than later."

Also, a side note on Kipnis, they list him as 6'0".. but he seemed a bit shorter to me. His build reminds me a lot of Crowe, more so than BFran. Take it for what it's worth.


See beginning of this thread. Hope that he is more than those two. I am thinking perennial .300/30 2B/20 HR/20 SB, sort of Bobby Abreu-like. Not that I am saying he will get there, I am thinking that is what I would like! :-D


Why not hope for Ruth, with speed???


If he had speed, he couldn't be Ruth. I think they would be mutually exclusive. Now, Willie Mays....

BTW, as far as his height, that seems to be the way it is. Guys are shorter, lighter and with slower fastballs after the Indians draft them. Not to hijack this thread but Haley seems to be the one exception to that.


Kipnis seemed closer to 5'10" to me.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby artgold » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:33 pm

Lot's of great hitters weren't big though, Mays, Allen and Aaron come to mind as a few who were likely in the 5'10"-5'11" and 180 lb range. The guy I'm baselining Kipnis against at the start, Mark Kotsay, is in the same size range.

Not to continue this sidetrack discussion, but I've always though that size was very overrated when it came to hitting. I'm watching a stubby guy named Pablo Sandoval out here in NorCal and he is absolutely hitting the ball as far and hard anyone in the majors. He is only about 5'10", with short stubby arms (being 260-270) helps give that impression. Yet, he hits the ball as far as Thome or Thomas did in their prime.

Strong wrist and hands, allowing you to get the bat quickly through the contact zone, are a hell of a lot important than height and weight. Sandy Alomar was a big guy but...
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:04 pm

artgold wrote:Lot's of great hitters weren't big though, Mays, Allen and Aaron come to mind as a few who were likely in the 5'10"-5'11" and 180 lb range. The guy I'm baselining Kipnis against at the start, Mark Kotsay, is in the same size range.

Not to continue this sidetrack discussion, but I've always though that size was very overrated when it came to hitting. I'm watching a stubby guy named Pablo Sandoval out here in NorCal and he is absolutely hitting the ball as far and hard anyone in the majors. He is only about 5'10", with short stubby arms (being 260-270) helps give that impression. Yet, he hits the ball as far as Thome or Thomas did in their prime.

Strong wrist and hands, allowing you to get the bat quickly through the contact zone, are a hell of a lot important than height and weight. Sandy Alomar was a big guy but...


To be honest, heck, I'd be very pleased if he turned out to be a Kotsay or McLouth.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby dnosco » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:12 pm

artgold wrote:Lot's of great hitters weren't big though, Mays, Allen and Aaron come to mind as a few who were likely in the 5'10"-5'11" and 180 lb range. The guy I'm baselining Kipnis against at the start, Mark Kotsay, is in the same size range.

Not to continue this sidetrack discussion, but I've always though that size was very overrated when it came to hitting. I'm watching a stubby guy named Pablo Sandoval out here in NorCal and he is absolutely hitting the ball as far and hard anyone in the majors. He is only about 5'10", with short stubby arms (being 260-270) helps give that impression. Yet, he hits the ball as far as Thome or Thomas did in their prime.

Strong wrist and hands, allowing you to get the bat quickly through the contact zone, are a hell of a lot important than height and weight. Sandy Alomar was a big guy but...


While I don't dismiss the guy because he is short I find it at least a little disturbing when this stuff happens. I remember Bunkelman was supposed to throw mid-90s but never came close to that here. The fact that Kipnis may even be shorter than what he was listed at, which wasn't tall, may not be problematic but when we have to begin posts by saying 'but this short guy is doing good' it kinda sounds like rationalization. Not that I think a hitter's height necessarily matters, just that we should probably acknowledge it is probably not a good thing but it is what it is and we will live with it and wait for the results.

Not ripping on you, Art, but I would rather wait to see what the guy does rather than rely on or use as an example some guy who is not tall as an example. Just seems like you are bending over backward to say it doesn't mean anything when, in fact, it does. Hey, I was the one who said it was a good pick because teams hardly even get the guy they want at any pick and the Indians got Kipnis, who is exactly who I think they wanted so I am pleased with that. Just not happy he is shorter than expected.
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Re: Crowe, uh, I mean Kipnis signed...

Postby artgold » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:45 pm

Not taking it as a ripping at all Dennis, not to be concerned whatsoever.

When looking at physical capabilities, I find that the NBA is pretty interesting. They have a pre-draft camp where prospects are measured, and one of the things that really jumps out at you is how many athletes have arms that are much longer than you would anticipate for their height. In baseball, for hitters, I wouldn't see that as too important, though it might indicate a better ability to drive pitches off the outside of the plate. What I would find interesting is how hand and wrist size plays into power projection (as opposed to raw size), but I have no raw data allowing me to evaluate the potential relationship.
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