Indians Prospect Insider - Covering the Cleveland Indians from the Minors to the Big Leagues

Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:55 pm

:s_coffee
I realize that St. Louis was trying to hang onto Barton but I also know he had multiple DL trips during 2008.

:s_dunno
Does anyone know if Barton had the necessary 90 days on the active roster to get beyond the Rule 5 draft limitations??

Just curious as his possible return might have other implications with both the roster and the figuring for trades.
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:58 pm

I don't beleive he was on the DL for about three months, which is what would be needed to keep him from the 90 days. Barton is theres, and really, they can have him. I don't want him back now considering all the guys we have.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby MickS » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:59 pm

Who cares? Barton would be buried so deep in the giant pile of surplus 4th OF that he'd never see daylight.
MickS
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:18 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:14 pm

yeah, Barton doesn't project as anything more than a backup OFer. We've got too many of those on our club as it is....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby dnosco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:15 pm

He is the property of the St. Louis Cardinals as I understand it. Regarding being a 4th outfielder, he was like our #5 prospect last year. I am thinking that is more than 4th outfielder upside, but that could just be me.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:51 pm

dnosco wrote:He is the property of the St. Louis Cardinals as I understand it. Regarding being a 4th outfielder, he was like our #5 prospect last year. I am thinking that is more than 4th outfielder upside, but that could just be me.


Barton was 5th in 2007, not last year. Last year he would have been 15-20 (he was to be #17 on my list).

He really did not show much in St. Louis. Ben Francisco showed a lot more in his time with Cleveland this year. I like Barton a lot, but he is not missed.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:15 am

Consigliere wrote:He really did not show much in St. Louis. Ben Francisco showed a lot more in his time with Cleveland this year. I like Barton a lot, but he is not missed.


Barton only started 33 games. He had a 751 OPS as a starter. Ben was at 782. Ben was below league average for OBP and Barton was above. I wouldn't call that "a lot more" especially considering that Ben played regularily and Barton started so infrequently.

Barton will be better than a 4th OF if someone gives him a chance.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:22 am

Barton doesn't have the power to be an everyday corner OFer....and he doesn't really have the range to play CF. Gonna be hard for him to be more than a 4th outfielder in this league...

Barton has skill in every area....but really doesn't do anything well enough to win an everyday job.....but you never know. In the right situation he could develop into something.....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:35 am

Quote:but really doesn't do anything well enough to win an everyday job.
---------
He has a OBP over .400 (413) in the minors. 888 OPS.

I don't think any Indian minor leaguer with more than 3 seasons has a higher number. Even Santana isn't that high (858 OPS).

He certainly has done plenty well.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:13 pm

He was also on the old side at all his minor league stops (23 at low A, 24 at high A, 25 at AA). His last full year in the minors saw his OBP drop to towards .370 (not bad, but big drop from lower level numbers).

Not saying he's not a decent OFer....but power lacks and that's what teams look for in RF and LF. Should have a better shot at starting for an NL team such as St. Louis though....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:40 pm

You can't blame Barton for the Indians moving him slow thru the minors. He did with what he was presented with. Put up great numbers at each level.

Barton put up a 918 OPS in AA in 2006 (42 games). The Indians had him play almost another full season at AA. He should have been moved to AAA much earlier in 07.

Quote:His last full year in the minors saw his OBP drop to towards .370 (not bad, but big drop from lower level numbers).
------------
He had a .402 OBP in 2007. I don't know where you got .370.
http://minors.baseball-reference.com/pl ... gi?pid=966
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:45 pm

I really don't think Barton got his 90 days in. I'm confident that 1 of the dl stints was a month long and Brian went thru 2 rehab stints of 20 days so that's another month plus he lost.

Does anyone know a service time site that is already updated for 2008???
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:35 pm

Barton was active from the start of the season until 7/6 when he went on the DL for a wrist issue. That's over 90 days active right there.

He had about 120-125 days of service time.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:44 pm

Consigliere wrote:Barton was active from the start of the season until 7/6 when he went on the DL for a wrist issue. That's over 90 days active right there.

He had about 120-125 days of service time.


:s_whiteflag Good thing I didn't bet the rent money :s_sorry
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby dnosco » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:05 am

Consigliere wrote:
dnosco wrote:He is the property of the St. Louis Cardinals as I understand it. Regarding being a 4th outfielder, he was like our #5 prospect last year. I am thinking that is more than 4th outfielder upside, but that could just be me.


Barton was 5th in 2007, not last year. Last year he would have been 15-20 (he was to be #17 on my list).

He really did not show much in St. Louis. Ben Francisco showed a lot more in his time with Cleveland this year. I like Barton a lot, but he is not missed.


Everyone is missed who is a good prospect and who is given away for nothing. BTW, he played all last year on a bum knee which he got fixed over the winter and spent much of 2008 just getting back into form which, of course, is difficult to do statistically given the limited playing time he had. Johan Santana didn't show much in his Rule 5 year, either:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... tana.shtml

I am wondering how many Astros' fans were saying after that first season that he wouldn't be missed?


Having seen Barton play most of the times he got on the fied this year and having listened to the Cardinals' broadcasters rave about his potential I am thinking you may be underrating him.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:39 am

I'm not under-rating him, as I think he is a talent. My point is he is really no different than Gutierrez, Francisco, Crowe, etc who we already have. It happens, guys get picked up and lost at times. It sucked to lose him, but really, he was not missed all year and I don't see his loss hurting us now.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:24 am

You're right, I did my math wrong (used a different site for OBP). Still, it was down around .333 at AAA. And the Tribe really didn't move him slowly. It was the fact that he was in college for so long and came out undrafted.


even with the nice OBP, only once has hit 20 HRs in a season and doesn't project as a HR threat at the ML level. Would be a nice guy to have in the minors right now.....but would still be behind others on this team.....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby dnosco » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:13 am

Consigliere wrote:I'm not under-rating him, as I think he is a talent. My point is he is really no different than Gutierrez, Francisco, Crowe, etc who we already have. It happens, guys get picked up and lost at times. It sucked to lose him, but really, he was not missed all year and I don't see his loss hurting us now.


Right. The only problem with that logic is that he is not around as a trade chip. We are currently talking about trading one of the above OFers for Mark Teahan. Wouldn't that be easier to swallow if we had one more OF prospect in tow? I think so.

Never discount the loss for free of a top prospect. At worst you lose a good future MLer. In the best scenario you lose a good trading chip who never develops.

The point that his loss didn't change last season or, potentially, next season isn't really relevant to me. It is how his loss changes our ability to make this team better in the future.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:18 am

We've got about 3 OF trade chips....losing 1 (or even 2) won't be hard to swallow at all....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:19 am

Denny, I completely agree with what you are saying. My point is if it wasn't Barton, then it would have been someone like a Choo who was dropped. Only so many spots on the roster for an outfielder, and Barton didn't fit. In hindsight, Snyder should probably have been removed for Barton....although Barton wasn't much better than Snyder in 2007 if at all. Other than that, who does he replace? They certainly could have dealt someone last offseason to create space, but there were no takers and we were underwhelmed in offers, so we kept everyone. Hence Barton was exposed. It happens when you have a lot of depth at one position like that. Also when you have a Michaels and Dellucci still on your roster (that is the mistake there...Michaels is the one who ultimately cost us Barton).
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:47 am

Michaels OPS for 2008? 652

Barton's? 746.

Michaels OPS for 2007? 721.

Poor talent evaluation again by the Indians. Favoring retread vet over prospect. Also poor decision giving Michaels a 2 year contract after his 717 OPS in 2006.

Who will be the PTBNL for Michaels?

Just kidding. I know they won't get anything for him.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:58 am

Michaels did have OPS's of .985, .779, and .814 the 3 years prior to us getting him (03, 04, and 05).....

He definately didn't perform up to par though I can see why the Tribe wanted to hold onto him.....but definately turned out to be the wrong move.....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby dnosco » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:05 pm

Tony,

It should have been Barton over Toregas or Snyder. Our development people should have been better than to have been fooled by Snyder. Again, though, it comes down to the Indians' philosophy of rather exposing someone to the Rule 5 instead of exposing someone to DFA-related waivers. You HAVE to make the right calls here and we didn't. So, I don't think it had to be him or another OFer. Even if you go that way then it should have meant DFAing Snyder. Hindsight may be 100% except that this (Snyder being DFA'd) was sort of a general consensus of what SHOULD have been done at the time Barton was left exposed to the Rule 5.

About Michaels costing us Barton, absolutely one of the many guys on the roster (including Juan Lara, who was later DFAd).
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:07 pm

Michaels' higher OPS's were in the inferior NL. You have to regress all performance in the NL when a player moves to the AL.

The Indians haven't learned that yet. Otherwise they wouldn't keep signing NL vets, Dellucci, Hernandez, etc, and watch them perform so poorly.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby MickS » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:14 pm

I'm not going to lose any sleep over Barton and I'm not sure you can say that the Tribe is "poor" at talent evaluation when we have the fore-sight to pluck guys like Choo and Cabrera out of another system w/o giving up much of anything.

I think the valid criticism is over-valuing mediocre veterans over unproven youngsters. I think we're going to repeat this mistake by keeping Dellucci on the roster and exposing a guy like Giminez. Looch probably won't make it to the All-Star break but by then someone will have been lost.

I'm not sure that Barton is a much better trade chip (which is all he would be to us) than Toregas giving the dearth of catching out there. All in all, these are decisions at the margins. I'm sure they thought there was at least a 50/50 chance that Barton would be returned if selected. But like I said, it's not keeping me awake at night.
MickS
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:18 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:53 pm

MickS wrote:I'm not going to lose any sleep over Barton and I'm not sure you can say that the Tribe is "poor" at talent evaluation when we have the fore-sight to pluck guys like Choo and Cabrera out of another system w/o giving up much of anything.

I think the valid criticism is over-valuing mediocre veterans over unproven youngsters. I think we're going to repeat this mistake by keeping Dellucci on the roster and exposing a guy like Giminez. Looch probably won't make it to the All-Star break but by then someone will have been lost.

I'm not sure that Barton is a much better trade chip (which is all he would be to us) than Toregas giving the dearth of catching out there. All in all, these are decisions at the margins. I'm sure they thought there was at least a 50/50 chance that Barton would be returned if selected. But like I said, it's not keeping me awake at night.


+1

And I fear you are right with Dellucci being kept on the roster and us losing a good player because of it.

By the way, as mentioned before, the Indians (as well as just about every team) slot a certain number of spots on the 40-man roster for each position. The idea is to have options at all positions and not be too heavy in one area and short in another. Hence why only seven outfielders were rostered last year at the Nov 20th deadline (Sizemore, Dellucci, Michaels, Gutierrez, Choo, Francisco, and Snyder).
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5053
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:04 pm

MickS wrote:I'm not going to lose any sleep over Barton and I'm not sure you can say that the Tribe is "poor" at talent evaluation when we have the fore-sight to pluck guys like Choo and Cabrera out of another system w/o giving up much of anything.

Don't make me bring up BP and Guthrie or their draft picks of the past. But the rest of what you said was correct.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:26 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:Michaels' higher OPS's were in the inferior NL. You have to regress all performance in the NL when a player moves to the AL.

The Indians haven't learned that yet. Otherwise they wouldn't keep signing NL vets, Dellucci, Hernandez, etc, and watch them perform so poorly.



I wouldn't call the NL 'inferior'. I agree you regress pitchers stats, but typically hitters stats are right on par with what they were in the NL. The pitchers are of the same caliber....if anything there better pitchers in the NL as they like pitchign there since their ERAs are lower getting to face the pitcher 2-3 times per start....

Dellucci did well in Texas (though the stadium/weather helped I'm sure), so not like it was strictly the NL that helped him.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby dnosco » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 pm

MickS wrote:I'm not going to lose any sleep over Barton and I'm not sure you can say that the Tribe is "poor" at talent evaluation when we have the fore-sight to pluck guys like Choo and Cabrera out of another system w/o giving up much of anything.

I think the valid criticism is over-valuing mediocre veterans over unproven youngsters. I think we're going to repeat this mistake by keeping Dellucci on the roster and exposing a guy like Giminez. Looch probably won't make it to the All-Star break but by then someone will have been lost.

I'm not sure that Barton is a much better trade chip (which is all he would be to us) than Toregas giving the dearth of catching out there. All in all, these are decisions at the margins. I'm sure they thought there was at least a 50/50 chance that Barton would be returned if selected. But like I said, it's not keeping me awake at night.


You might be cherry-picking a bit on your Choo and Cabrera comments. These were both pretty highly rated prospects at the time of the trades, ESPECIALLY for the guys and the circumstances of the trades at the time. I think it is more a case of a stupid GM making a stupid move (actually 2) that the Indians capitalized on.

In baseball, like in the ocean, there there those who feed and those who are fed on...but even a lot of the ones who are fed on by most also feed on a few lesser ones.

I am thinking the Indians evaluation crew is not very high on the food chain of evaluation crews in the big league.

BTW, it has been said that the selection of your 40-man roster and management is as close to as pure an example of talent evaluation as you can hang on an organization. So, if you are DFAing 30-30 guys or #1 starters you probably are not doing a very good job of 40-man roster management and, as a result, of player evaluation.

Just my thoughts.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby TheWord » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:30 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:Michaels' higher OPS's were in the inferior NL. You have to regress all performance in the NL when a player moves to the AL.

The Indians haven't learned that yet. Otherwise they wouldn't keep signing NL vets, Dellucci, Hernandez, etc, and watch them perform so poorly.



I wouldn't call the NL 'inferior'. I agree you regress pitchers stats, but typically hitters stats are right on par with what they were in the NL.



Sincerely,

Josh Barfield
TheWord
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:06 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby carnegie44115 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:45 pm

Well I think in Barfield's defense, the Indians tried to mess with his swing in his sophomore year when players typically have to make adjustments anyways. Kinda like the same thing with Marte as well and now they can't get a hit.


They were both free-swingers and not big OBP guys, the Indians try to go out and get guys and make them learn the art of taking meatballs down the middle of the plate when its the first or second pitch, but then strike out on a curveball in the dirt, they are just not aggressive enough.
carnegie44115
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby endlesssleeper » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:16 pm

TheWord wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:Michaels' higher OPS's were in the inferior NL. You have to regress all performance in the NL when a player moves to the AL.

The Indians haven't learned that yet. Otherwise they wouldn't keep signing NL vets, Dellucci, Hernandez, etc, and watch them perform so poorly.



I wouldn't call the NL 'inferior'. I agree you regress pitchers stats, but typically hitters stats are right on par with what they were in the NL.



Sincerely,

Josh Barfield


pwned.
endlesssleeper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:37 pm

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby artgold » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:18 pm

My complaint last season was in retaining Snyder over Barton. However, I focus on projections and in my view Francisco and Choo will likely be better major league batters than Barton. His slightly deteriorating BB/K rate always was of concern to me since his power was so modest. He only hit a combined total of 42 doubles in over 900 ABs in 2006 and 2007, a total that is very low considering his modest HR rate.

But, I consider him a likely MLB player, and I did not view Snyder as anything beyond a AAA contributor.
artgold
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Brian Barton: Is this closed or not?

Postby Duane Kuiper » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Barton played with an injured knee in 2007 and his power dropped because of it. Same thing for Brown this year.
Duane Kuiper
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:51 am


Return to Indians Prospect Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests