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Pavano

Postby endlesssleeper » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:30 pm

Not out of the first inning....5 runs given up. It's going to be a long year.
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Re: Pavano

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:31 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Not out of the first inning....5 runs given up. It's going to be a long year.


It's always a long year....it's a 162 games season.


I'm interested in seeing if the Tribe pitchers doing this bad....or just how good is this Texas offense. They scored 901 runs last year......they looked better on paper heading into this season....and look even better than that. I don't think it's nuts to think this team could score 1000 runs this year.....
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Re: Pavano

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:51 pm

Four more starts, max. He continues to pitch like he did today, dump him immediately.

I was not big on the signing, but at this point who need to wait for a couple points of data before dumping him. Texas just always has our number in Arlington. We ALWAYS get pounded there.
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Re: Pavano

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:59 pm

Consigliere wrote:Four more starts, max. He continues to pitch like he did today, dump him immediately.

I was not big on the signing, but at this point who need to wait for a couple points of data before dumping him. Texas just always has our number in Arlington. We ALWAYS get pounded there.


wow. 4 max? :s_omg

I'd say 4 more minimum. He doesn't pick up any incentives til much later, and not like Huff, Sowers, and Laffey blew people away this spring (or Lewis really). He'll at least get all of April (which should be 4 more starts) and half of May.....

I loved the signing and still do. We needed something and didn't have a boatload of money to do much (granted I would have liked something better and not splurged on a closer but we did so o well). Sounded like we liked Pedro a lot....but his money demands are scaring everyone off (not just us) it seems.....and Garcia didn't make the Mets rotation and had some issues....

Maybe Looper would have been better....but he said flat out he didn't want to go to the AL if he could help it. Garland price dropped a LOT and still was likely out of our price range too....

Sad truth, there just wasn't much there. We could have gone with 3 young guys after Lee/Carmona.....but for $1.5M, I still think it was a good shot to take....and still think Pavano will prove his worth.
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Re: Pavano

Postby dnosco » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:13 pm

Look, if the guy sucks, cut him now and he has sucked from the beginning. Indians fans swore they would never put up with another debacle like the Jason Johnson thing and how the Indians better have learned from that disaster. Pavano isn't going to get any better. So, if you are going to suck, do it with a young pitcher like Sowers or Laffey. They don't have it, you say? Well, they stand a helluva lot better chance learning here than at AAA where their stuff plays well against AAAA players and rookies coming up. Sowers and Laffey have both proven that already.

Man, Jeremy Guthrie is looking pretty good right now. Maybe we should use the same logic with Laffey and/or Sowers.

I really don't think 'there wasn't much out there' and the fact that $1.5 million was a reasonable gamble should not go together, IMHO. $1.5 million gets you TJ House, Zach Putnam and Cord Phelps. I would say that is a much better way to gamble $1.5 million.
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Re: Pavano

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:03 pm

dnosco wrote:Look, if the guy sucks, cut him now and he has sucked from the beginning. Indians fans swore they would never put up with another debacle like the Jason Johnson thing and how the Indians better have learned from that disaster. Pavano isn't going to get any better. So, if you are going to suck, do it with a young pitcher like Sowers or Laffey. They don't have it, you say? Well, they stand a helluva lot better chance learning here than at AAA where their stuff plays well against AAAA players and rookies coming up. Sowers and Laffey have both proven that already.
Man, Jeremy Guthrie is looking pretty good right now. Maybe we should use the same logic with Laffey and/or Sowers.

I really don't think 'there wasn't much out there' and the fact that $1.5 million was a reasonable gamble should not go together, IMHO. $1.5 million gets you TJ House, Zach Putnam and Cord Phelps. I would say that is a much better way to gamble $1.5 million.

I think Denny has a real good point. The Pavano fastball was not impressive in ST when I watched him. I think all of us had a pretty good idea this was a possibility as much as we hoped for a good ending. I am not sure I have any better idea when the point comes that you release than those suggested. If he improves and I am wrong to write him off, so be it. As for a replacement in the rotation, I think Huff is the first choice. I don't think there will be enough time to get him ready for the show but I would not rule out Rondon. Yes, I know this is the Indians and they don't do stuff like that. All the same, are we really better off promoting 4/5 ceiling pitchers? :s_scratchhead
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Re: Pavano

Postby dnosco » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:05 pm

Agreed about Huff and Rondon. I think you call up Laffey or Sowers and give THEM a month. At least you are giving a month to someone who has a shot, albeit how slim, at improving. Pavano, no chance.

Oh, and if any of you thought I was needling the Indians for letting Guthrie go, you are only a little correct. The point is that you might as well live with your own because retreads take away from the time you have to evaluate your own guys based on when their options run out.

But, agreed, if you are trying to win this year Huff AND Rondon, sooner rather than later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Pavano

Postby npc29 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:07 pm

I'd like to see him in a start that isn't at Texas, he wasn't very good today, and probably the worst of all the starters so far... But it was Texas and that lineup combined with that stadium is a bit of a death trap.

The hook better be quick on him, but not this quick.
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Re: Pavano

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:53 am

Pavano looked alright his last 3 spring training starts. Granted 2 were against the Padres, but still.

Obviously if he has THAT bad of a start in his next 2-3 I'd consider cutting him, but only then.


And don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Sowers up (but for Lewis). I'm a HUGE Sowers fan. But I'd still give Pavano more starts.


Personally, I'm more upset with the hitting; yes the hitting. Only 6 for 25 with RISP this series.....you won't win many series doing that. And only 3 guys got those hits (Victor, AC, and Benny).
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Re: Pavano

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:59 am

Hermie13 wrote:Pavano looked alright his last 3 spring training starts. Granted 2 were against the Padres, but still.

Obviously if he has THAT bad of a start in his next 2-3 I'd consider cutting him, but only then.


And don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Sowers up (but for Lewis). I'm a HUGE Sowers fan. But I'd still give Pavano more starts.


Personally, I'm more upset with the hitting; yes the hitting. Only 6 for 25 with RISP this series.....you won't win many series doing that. And only 3 guys got those hits (Victor, AC, and Benny).

I wrote, at the time of his first Padre start, that the game stats should not be taken too seriously. People were gushing at the numbers and the only thing that caught my attention was a high 80s fastball which didn't move much that he wasn't locating well. His slider was serviceable and he had an excellent change. But in his best years, Pavano had a sinking low 90s fastball with excellent location which he used to set up his other pitches. Without that fastball, I just don't think he can get ML hitters out consistently. I hate to sound hard ass about it but if he cannot recapture some life on his fastball by the middle of May, I go along with Tony and Dennis and cut our losses. We do have options and I might pick Huff over Sowers but the idea is the same.
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Re: Pavano

Postby artgold » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:12 pm

I agree too, if he can't straighten out within the first 10 or so starts that's it. If he gets hit as hard as yesterday, I may not go much past 5 starts.
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Re: Pavano

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:12 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I wrote, at the time of his first Padre start, that the game stats should not be taken too seriously. People were gushing at the numbers and the only thing that caught my attention was a high 80s fastball which didn't move much that he wasn't locating well. His slider was serviceable and he had an excellent change. But in his best years, Pavano had a sinking low 90s fastball with excellent location which he used to set up his other pitches. Without that fastball, I just don't think he can get ML hitters out consistently. I hate to sound hard ass about it but if he cannot recapture some life on his fastball by the middle of May, I go along with Tony and Dennis and cut our losses. We do have options and I might pick Huff over Sowers but the idea is the same.


eh, Lewis showed last year that pitchers can throw in the high 80s and get ML hitters out. Moyer has also been doing it for years now. Not saying Pavano 'will' be able to....but just cause he's not hitting 90 doesnt' mean he's done. If he can spot that changeup of his (like he did against the Padres and Astros) then he'll be serviceable. Definitely still a stopgap though, but can be a serviceable one I still believe.

I do agree, many more starts like that and he could get canned...but with Lewis now on the DL we're done a man already, so the depth won't really be there if we cut Pavano before Westbrook is ready to come back.....
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