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Is it time to cut Dellucci?

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Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:04 pm

This is easy for me to talk about since we're not talking about my money. But David is not playing well in the outfield this Spring. Wedge even criticized his OF play in print. How rare is that? The last 2 seasons he's batted .230 and .238. This season he looks to be our 4th outfielder. But do we want an extra OF that only plays LF?

Yes, he is a veteran that is not a problem in the clubhouse. He will make $4M this season, that's even more than Peralta. That's a big chunk to swallow. But he leaves us little flexibility.

Now think what Trevor Crowe could do with his spot. Better defense. More speed (that we lack). Maybe even more of a spark in the lineup when he plays.

Any chance this could happen?
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:52 am

Well Dellucci does play RF as well as LF......just not that great of an arm and wouldn't really recommend using him out there much. Also, not sure when Wedge criticized his play this spring (though maybe I missed it) as he's only gotten into 2 games so far and had hits in both starts, including a HR. Also hasn't looked bad in the OF from what I've seen.....

Also wouldn't say Crowe would be even more of a spark to the lineup when he plays than Dellucci. He very likely could be....but Crowe only has half a season at AAA so far. He could totally flop in the MLs like he did in AA for 2 years.

that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to the Tribe cutting Looch before the season, just not now. He's still a good vet to have around camp and with DeRosa gone playing with Team USA, he's one of the few we have in the lineup (yes we do still have Grady and Vic).


In the end though, I bet Looch does stick with the team....at least through the first part of May....after that all bets are off.....

Wouldn't shock me to see him cut then like Hernandez was in 2007 or Michaels was last year (though technically he was eventually traded but we paid nearly all his salary).
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:16 am

Yeah, I don't see Dellucci making it through the season with the team. That said, I still would be extremely surprised if we cut him at the end of spring training (I wish they would).

The Indians have a ton of depth in the outfield, but this will likely play itself out. Brantley is close to major league ready, but likely is in Columbus all year unless a rash of injuries/poor performance hits the collective likes of Sizemore, Francisco, Crowe, Choo, and LaPorta. Crowe is going to get the first shot as an outfielder on this team because he is already 40-man rostered and because of his versatility.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:40 am

I have a feelign Choo's injury is a big factor too in Dellucci sticking around. Hopefully Choo is good to go by opening day in RF.....but some reports don't sound too promising.


I could see Brantley getting a September callup if the Tribe is in a pennant race, which I expect them to be. Would be used like Gutierrez was in 2005, pinch runner. Tribe lacks a lot of speed....even if Crowe is up, they could use a guy like Brantley on the bench if they are in a tight race.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:36 pm

Don't forget the Hafner's comeback. Any delay in that will help Delucci stick around longer (as would an injury to Choo or another projected starting OF).
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Don't forget the Hafner's comeback. Any delay in that will help Delucci stick around longer (as would an injury to Choo or another projected starting OF).


True I guess....though I think the Hafner issue is more tied to Garko's playing time than Dellucci sticking with the club. Garko could easily move to DH with Vic to 1B and Shoppach catching should Hafner have any setbacks.....


But a fair point......
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby npc29 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:16 pm

I don't care if it is just spring and Wedge said he wanted to try him there, but Garko starting in right over Dellucci says a lot about where David might be defensively.

Like most of you though, I can't see Dellucci lasting long if he even makes the roster.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:28 pm

npc29 wrote:I don't care if it is just spring and Wedge said he wanted to try him there, but Garko starting in right over Dellucci says a lot about where David might be defensively.

Like most of you though, I can't see Dellucci lasting long if he even makes the roster.


Garko starting in RF has nothing to do with Looch's defense. It has more to do with getting Garko familar with more positions in case he's needed during the season.

And if it's a reflection on anyone, it's on Francisco. Benny is the only right-handed OF bat that'll likely be on the ML squad (not counting infielders Carroll and DeRosa who can play the OF). Garko being able to play the OF (and more than just LF) would do wonders for the Tribe.


Also, it's more about arm strength for LF vs RF. Garko has a better arm than people think. Was never a 'great' catcher but he did handle it decently and threw out around 20% of runners usually. Has a better arm than Looch likely is the point. Looch is the better defensive OFer at this point most likely, but may not have the better arm.....
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:16 pm

I have pretty much decided not to get too concerned about a group of position players on the likely 25 man roster that I view as placeholders as distinguished from the true utility players. The players that I put in this category are Dellucci, Barfield, Francisco and Garko. None of these players hurt the team to a significant degree IMO. Nor do I think it likely that any of the four will produce sufficiently to be significantly above ML average. In Columbus alone, LaPorta projects a superior LF/1B, Brantley as better OF and Crowe as a more valuable 4th OF. Valbuena not only looks to be better than Barfield offensively and defensively. From what I can tell, he is probably more versatile too. It's just a matter of time until these players (or others) are ready to move to the show. There is no need to rush them. Realistically, I think LaPorta is the only one whose current potential would make such a significant difference to promote ASAP.

If we included pitchers, Kobe would fall in the same category.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:37 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I have pretty much decided not to get too concerned about a group of position players on the likely 25 man roster that I view as placeholders as distinguished from the true utility players. The players that I put in this category are Dellucci, Barfield, Francisco and Garko. None of these players hurt the team to a significant degree IMO. Nor do I think it likely that any of the four will produce sufficiently to be significantly above ML average. In Columbus alone, LaPorta projects a superior LF/1B, Brantley as better OF and Crowe as a more valuable 4th OF. Valbuena not only looks to be better than Barfield offensively and defensively. From what I can tell, he is probably more versatile too. It's just a matter of time until these players (or others) are ready to move to the show. There is no need to rush them. Realistically, I think LaPorta is the only one whose current potential would make such a significant difference to promote ASAP.

If we included pitchers, Kobe would fall in the same category.


Kobe Bryant is pitching for the Tribe?!? :s_sarcastic ha, just kidding.


I agree mostly, though I'm in the minority and still think Garko is a ML starting 1B. I do though like that he's being played in the OF some. Garko is a pretty comparable hitter to Casey Kotchman, yet Garko is considered a 'utility' guy or placeholder; whereas, Kotchman has been a top prospect and was almost traded straight up for Tex last summer (a AA reliever went with him in the trade).

Each of the last 2 seasons Garko has hit either more HRs (as in 2007 20 vs 11) or the same (both had 14 last year) as Kotchman, and in both years Garko has had the better OPS. I do realize that just because Garko has been better than Kotchman (who hasn't been all that great) doesn't mean that we should keep Garko, and I realize that Garko is 2 years older than Kotchman (though Garko has less pro experience).

I've said this before and will say it again (though I'll get ripped for it), but Garko reminds me a lot of Edgar Martinez when he was in this 20s. He won't 'wow' you with defense or his power, but he's just a profesional hitter. Garko had a 'bad' year yet led the team in RBIs with 90 thanks to being our best clutch hitter. Not saying I think Garko will win a batting title in his 30s like Edgar did or be a borderline Hall of Famer, just that I see similarities there.


I will agree that Weglarz, LaPorta, and Mills all appear to have much higher potential than Garko.....but Garko is a professional hitter and shouldn't be discounted just yet this year.....


I also agree about LaPorta (man is the world ending or something?). I think he can (and will) make a big impact sometime this year for the Tribe. I won't say a 'Braun-like' impact (that was just insane), but I think he can still provide some pretty big numbers and compete for rookie of the year if he gets the call early enough (though if I were a betting man I'd go with Price or Weiters for ROY).

One thing seems pretty certain, we've got enough 'talent' that can hold their own at the ML level with more than enough prospects to take their places at the upper levels of the system......this offense should be very good for a while.....

Now if only the pitching could continue to step up......
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby jellis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:00 pm

Garko's had 2.5 years and in that time has not managed to claim the job for his own. His maddening inconsistency has made it hard for him to be a starter. I still like him and think he should be at 1st till Laporta or mills unseats him, but I just think Garko has managed to loss his job in CLE. Shoppach will be taken away his AB's this year. I think if garko starts over 80 games this year then some on e got hurt
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:21 pm

I am not sure I completely agree with either of you. I do believe that Garko is a ML level 1B. As I said, he is not an embarrassment. There is no reason to rush in a replacement. I know Shoppach has more raw power but I am not completely sold that he is a more complete hitter than Garko. I haven't got this completely figured out but I think the most likely candidate, that effects Garko, to be moved from the 25 is Dellucci. Who replaces him? What is the role? There are so many options! As I mentioned earlier, figuring this out is above my pay grade. And I am not sure we have enough information right now to make an informed decision. I am going to cop out on this one.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby jellis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:01 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I am not sure I completely agree with either of you. I do believe that Garko is a ML level 1B. As I said, he is not an embarrassment. There is no reason to rush in a replacement. I know Shoppach has more raw power but I am not completely sold that he is a more complete hitter than Garko. I haven't got this completely figured out but I think the most likely candidate, that effects Garko, to be moved from the 25 is Dellucci. Who replaces him? What is the role? There are so many options! As I mentioned earlier, figuring this out is above my pay grade. And I am not sure we have enough information right now to make an informed decision. I am going to cop out on this one.



My logic is, this team is paying shoppach and want him to hold his high value as a hitting catcher. They are going to make sure he gets a starters share of AB. He will be at C and on on Pronks of days he will DH. Vic will be at 1st and C. I think Garko will get the squeeze since he is the one that has had the most negative comments and who seems to carry the lowest value with the franchise
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:25 pm

Pity the player that starts the season slow if the others get out of the gate hot. Any plans for at-bats in certain situations will likely disappear.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:39 am

jellis wrote:My logic is, this team is paying shoppach and want him to hold his high value as a hitting catcher. They are going to make sure he gets a starters share of AB. He will be at C and on on Pronks of days he will DH. Vic will be at 1st and C. I think Garko will get the squeeze since he is the one that has had the most negative comments and who seems to carry the lowest value with the franchise


I disagree here. Wedge is not a fan of DHing one of his catchers. On Pronk off days you'll see Garko DH, Vic at 1B, and Shoppach behind the plate.


If Garko only plays in 80 games either he's hitting .240, hurt, or has been traded. He'll still get in at least 120 games if not more. Tribe moving him to the OF is likely due to them not being sold on either Choo or Francisco.

Choo was amazing the second half of last year.....but can he do that all year? And how well will he hit lefties this year? He did hit .286 off them last year....but I still think he'll get time off against them this year, especially if there's any lingering arm issues, which again will give Garko more time in the OF.

And speaking of hitting against lefties.....Francisco only hit .269 off them last year. Plus he NEVER hit lefties well in the minors. Most scouts felt he'd be a platoon guy and only hit off righties at the ML. He's proved he's not 'that' bad against lefties.....HOWEVER, Garko hit .315 off lefties last year (only Cabrera and Martinez were better). Expect Garko, who has proven to be much better in the OF than anyone though he'd be (thanks largely to losing 10 lbs this winter), to be starting in LF 20-25 games at least against lefties......

Garko will be in the lineup everytime a lefty is starting......which will be a good 60 games at least with the likes of Buerhle, Danks, Richards, Robertson, Liriano, and Perkins in the AL Central. And he won't be sitting against righties all the time either.

Garko has played in 138 and 141 games the last 2 seasons......I don't expect that to drop much really this year (barring injury or trade....or him completely stinking the joint up)......
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:52 pm

My guess is that Garko will get squeezed out of some AB's. I didn't think he was terrible last year with 90 RBI. But Victor will we at first maybe 40% of the games. I don't see Ryan playing much OF, despite his progress there because of Dellucci, Barfield, and the Columbus trio. Also he won't be used as a pinch runner.
Unfortunately, when AB's are limited, failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he's batting .240 at the break, I think we could even see LaPorta play there.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:00 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:My guess is that Garko will get squeezed out of some AB's. I didn't think he was terrible last year with 90 RBI. But Victor will we at first maybe 40% of the games. I don't see Ryan playing much OF, despite his progress there because of Dellucci, Barfield, and the Columbus trio. Also he won't be used as a pinch runner.
Unfortunately, when AB's are limited, failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he's batting .240 at the break, I think we could even see LaPorta play there.


Who said he'd be used as a pinch runner? (or did you mean pinch hitter?)

That reason right there is one big reason why he will likely see more time in the OF (and by 'more' don't mean like 50 games or anything like that). Barfield will be almost the 'designated pinch runner' for this team. Yeah, he'll probably get a few starts at 2B (especially if AC struggles). But other than CF, I don't think he'll see hardly any time in the OF. It doesn't make much sense for him to play out there since he's just a bench guy and you have Carroll and DeRosa who could play the OF instead.

The Columbus trio does pose a threat though.


I'm also basing my 'assumption' on the fact that I see Shoppach taking a step back this year offensively and getting fewer starts as the year goes on. I think when the year is over, Garko will show he's the better hitter.....

But obviously I could be totally wrong....Garko could revert back to his 2008 first half and be out of a job (at least with the Tribe) by the All-Star game.....
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:My guess is that Garko will get squeezed out of some AB's. I didn't think he was terrible last year with 90 RBI. But Victor will we at first maybe 40% of the games. I don't see Ryan playing much OF, despite his progress there because of Dellucci, Barfield, and the Columbus trio. Also he won't be used as a pinch runner.
Unfortunately, when AB's are limited, failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he's batting .240 at the break, I think we could even see LaPorta play there.


Who said he'd be used as a pinch runner? (or did you mean pinch hitter?)


That was supposed to be an attempt at humor! :s_laughat
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:29 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:That was supposed to be an attempt at humor! :s_laughat


:s_sorry lol, oh alright.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby jellis » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:25 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:My logic is, this team is paying shoppach and want him to hold his high value as a hitting catcher. They are going to make sure he gets a starters share of AB. He will be at C and on on Pronks of days he will DH. Vic will be at 1st and C. I think Garko will get the squeeze since he is the one that has had the most negative comments and who seems to carry the lowest value with the franchise


I disagree here. Wedge is not a fan of DHing one of his catchers. On Pronk off days you'll see Garko DH, Vic at 1B, and Shoppach behind the plate.


If Garko only plays in 80 games either he's hitting .240, hurt, or has been traded. He'll still get in at least 120 games if not more. Tribe moving him to the OF is likely due to them not being sold on either Choo or Francisco.

Choo was amazing the second half of last year.....but can he do that all year? And how well will he hit lefties this year? He did hit .286 off them last year....but I still think he'll get time off against them this year, especially if there's any lingering arm issues, which again will give Garko more time in the OF.

And speaking of hitting against lefties.....Francisco only hit .269 off them last year. Plus he NEVER hit lefties well in the minors. Most scouts felt he'd be a platoon guy and only hit off righties at the ML. He's proved he's not 'that' bad against lefties.....HOWEVER, Garko hit .315 off lefties last year (only Cabrera and Martinez were better). Expect Garko, who has proven to be much better in the OF than anyone though he'd be (thanks largely to losing 10 lbs this winter), to be starting in LF 20-25 games at least against lefties......

Garko will be in the lineup everytime a lefty is starting......which will be a good 60 games at least with the likes of Buerhle, Danks, Richards, Robertson, Liriano, and Perkins in the AL Central. And he won't be sitting against righties all the time either.

Garko has played in 138 and 141 games the last 2 seasons......I don't expect that to drop much really this year (barring injury or trade....or him completely stinking the joint up)......


Wedge comments make me think garkos opportunity will be in the past, just donest seem a huge fan. Baring injuries or trades we have 4 guys for 3 positions. That is a total of 486 games. I would bet vic to get 130 starts, Shoppack 140, Pronk 120. That leaves only 96 games for garko. Which could easily be less depending on players like laporta. They are paying shoppach, pronk, and vic like starters so they will start. I have liked garko for awhile, but hes a lot like trevor crowe, he is either ice cold or volcanic hot it seems. Plus his manager has gone out of his way to criticize him and rarely says anything good.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby npc29 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:49 pm

jellis wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:My logic is, this team is paying shoppach and want him to hold his high value as a hitting catcher. They are going to make sure he gets a starters share of AB. He will be at C and on on Pronks of days he will DH. Vic will be at 1st and C. I think Garko will get the squeeze since he is the one that has had the most negative comments and who seems to carry the lowest value with the franchise


I disagree here. Wedge is not a fan of DHing one of his catchers. On Pronk off days you'll see Garko DH, Vic at 1B, and Shoppach behind the plate.


If Garko only plays in 80 games either he's hitting .240, hurt, or has been traded. He'll still get in at least 120 games if not more. Tribe moving him to the OF is likely due to them not being sold on either Choo or Francisco.

Choo was amazing the second half of last year.....but can he do that all year? And how well will he hit lefties this year? He did hit .286 off them last year....but I still think he'll get time off against them this year, especially if there's any lingering arm issues, which again will give Garko more time in the OF.

And speaking of hitting against lefties.....Francisco only hit .269 off them last year. Plus he NEVER hit lefties well in the minors. Most scouts felt he'd be a platoon guy and only hit off righties at the ML. He's proved he's not 'that' bad against lefties.....HOWEVER, Garko hit .315 off lefties last year (only Cabrera and Martinez were better). Expect Garko, who has proven to be much better in the OF than anyone though he'd be (thanks largely to losing 10 lbs this winter), to be starting in LF 20-25 games at least against lefties......

Garko will be in the lineup everytime a lefty is starting......which will be a good 60 games at least with the likes of Buerhle, Danks, Richards, Robertson, Liriano, and Perkins in the AL Central. And he won't be sitting against righties all the time either.

Garko has played in 138 and 141 games the last 2 seasons......I don't expect that to drop much really this year (barring injury or trade....or him completely stinking the joint up)......


Wedge comments make me think garkos opportunity will be in the past, just donest seem a huge fan. Baring injuries or trades we have 4 guys for 3 positions. That is a total of 486 games. I would bet vic to get 130 starts, Shoppack 140, Pronk 120. That leaves only 96 games for garko. Which could easily be less depending on players like laporta. They are paying shoppach, pronk, and vic like starters so they will start. I have liked garko for awhile, but hes a lot like trevor crowe, he is either ice cold or volcanic hot it seems. Plus his manager has gone out of his way to criticize him and rarely says anything good.


Yeah It seems Wedge has never had a soft spot for Garko, but I've noticed a little bit of a change in some of the stuff he's said about him since he didn't run that ground ball out and bounced back offensively. He seems to be a little more supportive of Garko in a way.

But yeah he never came off as a big Garko fan.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:14 pm

I recognize that this is a Dellucci thread but I am thinking our Japanese hot dog eater might beat him out the door. Both players suffer from same disease. They are old and they are limited in what they bring to the team flexibility. Crowe is the only one who makes much sense to win Dellucci's job straight out of ST but there looks to be several options that could cause Kobe to be seeking employment.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:39 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I recognize that this is a Dellucci thread but I am thinking our Japanese hot dog eater might beat him out the door. Both players suffer from same disease. They are old and they are limited in what they bring to the team flexibility. Crowe is the only one who makes much sense to win Dellucci's job straight out of ST but there looks to be several options that could cause Kobe to be seeking employment.


If you think about it, Shapiro has not done well often with "mid-level" signings. Dellucci and Kobayashi are flops. Borowski was good for 1 year (as was another RP, but I can't think of his name). Going way back Matt Lawton was way over paid.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby artgold » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:53 pm

I agree that the focus on Dellucci probably blinds us to the fact that Kobayashi may actually be the contract they end up eating this spring.

I expect Dellucci to be with the team, at least for the first part of the season.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:46 am

jellis wrote:Wedge comments make me think garkos opportunity will be in the past, just donest seem a huge fan. Baring injuries or trades we have 4 guys for 3 positions. That is a total of 486 games. I would bet vic to get 130 starts, Shoppack 140, Pronk 120. That leaves only 96 games for garko. Which could easily be less depending on players like laporta. They are paying shoppach, pronk, and vic like starters so they will start. I have liked garko for awhile, but hes a lot like trevor crowe, he is either ice cold or volcanic hot it seems. Plus his manager has gone out of his way to criticize him and rarely says anything good.


I can't see Shoppach having that many starts, nor having more than Victor (unless Vic gets hurt again). Barring an injury to Victor (which I don't think will happen as long as Wedge isn't an idiot and playing him in cold weather the first week), Shoppach will likely max out (at best for him) at 120 games.....and I'd bet less....

Shoppach isn't playing 1B, and Wedge hates DHing a catcher. There is absolutely NO way Shoppach starts 140 games then behind the plate. I'd be shocked if he starts much more than 100 there actually. That'd mean he's getting 3 out of 5 starts in the rotation......which is possible I guess...



I also think Pronk will have more than 120......but I'll admit, 120 is probably a decent guess. So many questions around his health.....he could be at 145....or at 60......
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:57 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I recognize that this is a Dellucci thread but I am thinking our Japanese hot dog eater might beat him out the door. Both players suffer from same disease. They are old and they are limited in what they bring to the team flexibility. Crowe is the only one who makes much sense to win Dellucci's job straight out of ST but there looks to be several options that could cause Kobe to be seeking employment.


If you think about it, Shapiro has not done well often with "mid-level" signings. Dellucci and Kobayashi are flops. Borowski was good for 1 year (as was another RP, but I can't think of his name). Going way back Matt Lawton was way over paid.


I agree a bit......though I think Kobayashi still has 'some' trade value. He wasn't 'that' bad last year. He was actually pretty decent the first half of the year.

In 42 pre-All Star appearances opponents only hit .237 off him and had a 1.15 WHIP (not spectacular, but solid).

In 15 post-All Star appearances though opponents hit .431 off him! ouch.


Wedge knows (or at least should) he can't use Kobayashi as much as last year. But as a 5th/6th guy in the pen, he shouldn't have to.


That being said....I think there is a very small chance Masa could be cut if he struggles.....however, I don't see it happening. Not sure how good of a message that would send to other potential Japanese signing down the road if we cut our first ever pro-Japanese player. Could discourage others from signing....or maybe not.


Also, Betancourt was equally as bad last year and very inconsistent. He's also in the last year of a deal before free agency (well has an option like Koby too). He's making nearly the same as Kobayashi too this year ($325k more is all)....


Not saying I think Betancourt will get cut; I don't actually. I think he can bounce back (no 2007 numbers, but solid ones). I love that he stayed away from the WBC too.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I recognize that this is a Dellucci thread but I am thinking our Japanese hot dog eater might beat him out the door. Both players suffer from same disease. They are old and they are limited in what they bring to the team flexibility. Crowe is the only one who makes much sense to win Dellucci's job straight out of ST but there looks to be several options that could cause Kobe to be seeking employment.


If you think about it, Shapiro has not done well often with "mid-level" signings. Dellucci and Kobayashi are flops. Borowski was good for 1 year (as was another RP, but I can't think of his name). Going way back Matt Lawton was way over paid.


I agree a bit......though I think Kobayashi still has 'some' trade value. He wasn't 'that' bad last year. He was actually pretty decent the first half of the year.

In 42 pre-All Star appearances opponents only hit .237 off him and had a 1.15 WHIP (not spectacular, but solid).

In 15 post-All Star appearances though opponents hit .431 off him! ouch.


Wedge knows (or at least should) he can't use Kobayashi as much as last year. But as a 5th/6th guy in the pen, he shouldn't have to.


That being said....I think there is a very small chance Masa could be cut if he struggles.....however, I don't see it happening. Not sure how good of a message that would send to other potential Japanese signing down the road if we cut our first ever pro-Japanese player. Could discourage others from signing....or maybe not.


Also, Betancourt was equally as bad last year and very inconsistent. He's also in the last year of a deal before free agency (well has an option like Koby too). He's making nearly the same as Kobayashi too this year ($325k more is all)....


Not saying I think Betancourt will get cut; I don't actually. I think he can bounce back (no 2007 numbers, but solid ones). I love that he stayed away from the WBC too.

As far as Kobe goes, the performance might be passable but the lack of ability to go consecutive days and no more than an inning both me more. I don't think he has any more trade value than Dellucci. I think the Tribe can survive whatever message is sent by cutting a mediocre Japanese pitcher. If that were a big issue, how many Japanese pitchers would sign with the Yankees. It is just money, IMO.

Betancourt is strictly wait and see with me. Not ready to give up but no long leash either. I do not see the Indians picking up either option.

I think you might be overlooking some of the better signings but most of these players were just interim players that were signed to fill out the roster without any long term considerations. I put that in the category of a budget issue. I don't lose a lot of sleep over signings like Pavano. It is what it is.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:10 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:As far as Kobe goes, the performance might be passable but the lack of ability to go consecutive days and no more than an inning both me more. I don't think he has any more trade value than Dellucci. I think the Tribe can survive whatever message is sent by cutting a mediocre Japanese pitcher. If that were a big issue, how many Japanese pitchers would sign with the Yankees. It is just money, IMO.

Betancourt is strictly wait and see with me. Not ready to give up but no long leash either. I do not see the Indians picking up either option.

I think you might be overlooking some of the better signings but most of these players were just interim players that were signed to fill out the roster without any long term considerations. I put that in the category of a budget issue. I don't lose a lot of sleep over signings like Pavano. It is what it is.


I agree. I'm not a fan of his lack of staminia even as a reliever.....but with how deep the pen appears, how often will he really need to go multiple innings or work back-to-back days? Smith being brought in and Lewis being strictly a setup man this year is gonna be huge for Kobayshi I think (or maybe it's 'hope' lol).

ha, and let me clarify....I do think Kobayshi's trade value is higher than Dellucci's....because.....

Looch has absolutely no trade value.......whereas Kobayashi has very little trade value, lol :s_sarcastic

I think it's different though. The Yankees have name recognition in Japan. Players probably feel more comfortable signing there and risk getting cut than in Cleveland......but again, maybe it'll mean nothing.


Yeah I don't think the Tribe ever had any real intention to pickup Betancourt's option even when they gave it to him. The deal bought out all his remaining arbitration years and the option was for his first free agent year. They made it a ridiculous amount for a setup man ($5.4M) thinking that if he did become their closer, that he'd then be a bargain.

Obviously he did not become our closer, so no option for him. Though I still wouldn't rule out him coming back on a lesser deal.....
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:20 pm

Castro had a great article on Dullucci and our final 25. After my little visit I think he probably has it right. Looking forward to the fearless leader's thoughts.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:59 pm

It has been reported that the Looch is injured with no report of the seriousness. After he turned out to be the winner, such as it is, of the 4th OF competition, this has the potential to change the 25 in the fringe player category. Graffanino and Crowe would be the most likely beneficiaries but it must be a huge temptation to go with either of our two OF prospects.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby artgold » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:50 pm

Based upon the fact that he is already 25, I would think it is time to give Crowe the look. However, I recall George (I can't read the pitcher) Lombard getting a lot of time in the cage and on the field at camp last week.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby jellis » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:06 pm

I just cant see Crowe getting the spot, the brass will want him to get his reps everyday which he cant get in the MLB, with the major consistency issues I think even if looch is hurt Crowe will still be in AAA
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:08 pm

artgold wrote:Based upon the fact that he is already 25, I would think it is time to give Crowe the look. However, I recall George (I can't read the pitcher) Lombard getting a lot of time in the cage and on the field at camp last week.

Yeah, how soon we forget! Makes some sense but eats a spot on the 40 and may not be as good at DPR as barf. I go along with Jellis and think Crowe could use the time in AAA. :s_drinks
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:50 am

Yeah Crowe definitely could use a bit more time at AAA (and we now know he'll get it). Until last year he had struggled for 2 straight years at Akron let's not forget.

I did LOVE the stolen bases he was getting this spring. Hopefully that continues down in the minors. We can definitely use more speed at the ML level.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:25 pm

So, anyway - They put Dellucci on the 15-day DL. Crowe is the 4th OF. If he shows his value, I don't see him going back down. :s_thumbsup
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:11 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:So, anyway - They put Dellucci on the 15-day DL. Crowe is the 4th OF. If he shows his value, I don't see him going back down. :s_thumbsup


will be hard to 'show his value' though if he only has about 5-10 at-bats when Dellucci is healthy. Carroll is likely to play over Crowe if someone needs a day off in the OF (with DeRosa or Garko goign to the OF).


One thing to note.....this may have saved Marte's Indians career. This opens up a bench spot in Columbus possibly.....

head or Gimenez will likely start now. So unless the Tribe decides to keep an extra OF there such as Lombard or keep both SS's and Graffanino, looks like Marte may survive for at least a month down in AAA....
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby TheWord » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:46 pm

I see no reason why Crowe couldn't get 2 starts per week early in the season.

Given Choo being behind in his time with the Indians, and Francisco a big question mark already I think he should be given just as much of an opportunity as Francisco.

Putting him in CF and letting Sizemore DH a day or two early in the season is a good idea as well.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:00 pm

TheWord wrote:I see no reason why Crowe couldn't get 2 starts per week early in the season.

Given Choo being behind in his time with the Indians, and Francisco a big question mark already I think he should be given just as much of an opportunity as Francisco.

Putting him in CF and letting Sizemore DH a day or two early in the season is a good idea as well.


With guys like Carroll and Garko on the team, I do see two reasons right there that Crowe won't get 2 starts per week....not to mention Choo and Francisco in front of him. According to reports, Victor is may only catch 90 games this year (though that was the extreme low end), meaning a lot more games at 1B. If Wedge is being sincere about his praise for Garko's OF play, you'll likely see him out there in LF before Crowe.

I also think Carroll will get more starts than Crowe.....at least at 3B with DeRosa moving to LF/RF for a game or two.

How is Francisco a big question mark already? Or are you just saying you don't think he'll have that good a year? Cause he had a good spring. Drove the ball well and even stole a few bases.

Grady will DH maybe 5-7 games all year......and likely not at all in April. Not saying it's right, but that's just how Wedge is. Doesn't like giving guys off days early....and really it doesn't make much sense too. 1-2 days of DHing in April really won't do much for Grady come August or September.

One thing you may see though is some defensive replacements/pinch running late in a game. Francisco has a good arm for LF.....but he really isn't that good of a defensive OFer.

One thing is for sure....this is the most speed Wedge has had on the bench since becoming the Tribe manager. Other than Shoppach....all 3 of Carroll, Crowe, and Barfield are threats to steal a base, especially the latter two.

Having said all that....I hope you are right and he does get in 2-3 times a week for extended periods. I really have little faith in Franciso, and Crowe could easily be as good as Ellsbury if not better. Though Francisco usually gets off to a really hot start then totally tails off.....so we'll see how much time Crowe gets....


Also interesting to see how long Looch stays on the DL.....is it only 15 days or do they stretch it out longer to give more looks to the younger guys?
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:27 pm

This was the way it should have been. Good to see Crowe in Cleveland, and hopefully this is the last we see of the Looch.

Crowe will get in about 2-4 games a week. He'll spell Francisco for a couple games (a mini-platoon) and also play when Choo sits against tougher lefties. He will also be a late inning defensive replacement for b-Fran often. He won't rot on the bench, and is ready for the opportunity.
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:00 am

Consigliere wrote:This was the way it should have been. Good to see Crowe in Cleveland, and hopefully this is the last we see of the Looch.

Crowe will get in about 2-4 games a week. He'll spell Francisco for a couple games (a mini-platoon) and also play when Choo sits against tougher lefties. He will also be a late inning defensive replacement for b-Fran often. He won't rot on the bench, and is ready for the opportunity.


Relly hope you are right here.....as the previous two years (before 2008) he looked totally lost....
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby jellis » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:49 pm

my big concern is a guy who has struggled with consistency not playing everyday could be a bad combo
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Re: Is it time to cut Dellucci?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:31 am

Intersting to note.....

The Phillies have cut Jenkins who is making $8M this year.....

They've now cut $17M (Eaton and Jenkins)......


Makes cutting Kobayashi and Dellucci almost seem like chump change, lol
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