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Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

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Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby dnosco » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:52 pm

First, he negotiates a killer deal with the Indians, thinking, 'I just made the move that will give us the playoffs and I really didn't give up a lot, plus, I give up even less if I don't make the playoffs. Am I smart or what'.

Second, CC is great, the Brewers make the playoffs and then the Yankees sign CC, the second highest rated free agent in baseball and Melvin is thinking to himself 'I made a good trade, made the playoffs and I got my two draft picks for CC more than making up what I gave up for CC. Man, am I smart or what'.

Then, the Yankees sign Mark Texeiera, the only free agent more highly ranked than CC and the Brewers first round pick turns into a second round pick, about 50 picks lower than the one they would have had....and the whining starts.

Then, he keeps it up. From today's St. Louis Post Dispatch

"I didn't think we wouldn't get a first-round draft pick for him," Melvin said. "That's the part that disappoints me. Stupid Elias rankings. It's awful. So, the Angels (who lost Teixeira), who had 97 (100 actually) wins, get the (Type A) draft pick.

"And no disrespect to 41-year-old Brian Shouse. But the draft pick we're getting for him (a reliever who signed with Tampa Bay) is only seven picks ahead of the one we're getting for CC. There's some definite flaws in the system. Our owner (Mark Attanasio) is not very happy about it either."


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports ... enDocument

Guess what, you idiot. The same system that gave the Yankees pick to the Angels gave you a supplemental first round pick for a 41-year old freakin' situational lefty/setup guy.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... ouse.shtml

You have got to be the biggest whiner among all people in professional baseball.

What an idiot! I would never deal with this SOB again. I honestly believe he thinks he pulled the wool over the eyes of Shapiro and the Indians in this deal and it tickles me to see him squirming like this. Then his other type A free agent pulls up lame and won't sign, meaning he won't get two draft picks for Sheets.

Priceless, couldn't happen to a more deserving whiner.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:14 pm

Dennis,
When this came up before (at the time of the Teixeira signing), we had differing opinions.
You call it whining on the part of Melvin, I say he is raising valid objections. I also say that if it was Shapiro in this spot, you would be the 1st person in line screaming about it and leading the brigade to hang him out.

Question about all of this: Maybe I misread the part about the pick from Shouse, but since the Brewer's weren't getting the 1st pick of the Yankees and CC was the 2nd highest rated free agent, why would anyone (but maybe Teixeira) produce a higher supplemental pick??
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby jellis » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:55 pm

i agree the system needs to be reworked or changed. The MLB draft is far and away the worst and a bit of a joke, I really hope they rework the system
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby dnosco » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:07 pm

"Dennis,
When this came up before (at the time of the Teixeira signing), we had differing opinions.
You call it whining on the part of Melvin, I say he is raising valid objections. I also say that if it was Shapiro in this spot, you would be the 1st person in line screaming about it and leading the brigade to hang him out.

Question about all of this: Maybe I misread the part about the pick from Shouse, but since the Brewer's weren't getting the 1st pick of the Yankees and CC was the 2nd highest rated free agent, why would anyone (but maybe Teixeira) produce a higher supplemental pick??"


The supplemental first round pick order is determined by a number of things:

1. Type of free agent (Type A get higher selections than Type B)
2. Finish in the previous season of the team getting the pick (Mariners would get a higher pick than the Brewers than the Devil Rays)
3. Number of supplemental picks a team gets (i.e., every team gets one supplemental pick for a Type A before any team gets its second supplemental for a Type A, same for Type B)

As I remember there is NO taking into consideration of the ranking of the player.

Hey, the system could be better, but it is NOT terrible. Texeira should give a better pick than Sabathia, he is rated higher. Shouse should be worth nothing since relievers SHOULD NOT be rated separate from other pitchers just like catchers should not be rated separately (like when we signed Rick Dempsey and lost a top draft pick). Melvin is a whiner and a two-face SOB. Hey, he has no problem with a system that gives him a supplemental first round pick for a mediocre pitcher like Shouse but he whines about the same system because his master plan of getting two top picks for Sabathia fell through. THAT is two-faced.

Hey, it took a perfect storm (higher ranking free agent even higher than Sabathia being signed by the same team). Plus, I didn't hear Melvin whine in previous years when other teams got screwed when the Yankees signed a number of top free agents.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby jellis » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:17 pm

he is bitching a ton but I feel like if that happened to our team would would bitch a ton too, i still feel that a team like the yanks should be able to lose there failed signing pick, but at the end of the day any process that allows a player like porcello to fall to the tigers in the 20's is a broken system
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby MickS » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:26 pm

A simple solution would be for the team that should receive the compensation pick to have the option of deferring that pick to a later year. If Mil. had the option of the Yankees 2nd pick in '09 or the 1st Yankee pick in '10 the Yankees would quickly deprive themselves of their early picks for many years to come if they sign too many Type A free agents.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby jellis » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:42 pm

MickS wrote:A simple solution would be for the team that should receive the compensation pick to have the option of deferring that pick to a later year. If Mil. had the option of the Yankees 2nd pick in '09 or the 1st Yankee pick in '10 the Yankees would quickly deprive themselves of their early picks for many years to come if they sign too many Type A free agents.



that's a great idea, only issue would be happens if the next year thy are in top 15 it could really mount or in 3 years does Tor get there number 1 or would another team get it if they signed a number 1 type player that year. Really did liek the idea but on further thought I just don't think it could happen
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby npc29 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:01 am

dnosco wrote:Guess what, you idiot. The same system that gave the Yankees pick to the Angels gave you a supplemental first round pick for a 41-year old freakin' situational lefty/setup guy.


That's exactly why the system is flawed.

I agree with jellis. If this happened to the Indians (and it would have if we didn't trade CC), we as fans would probably bitch about it.

I don't see how the way that worked out being fair for the Brewers, regardless of what Melvin thought he had and what complaining he's doing. A Type A Free Agent, especially one like CC Sabathia should garner you a first round draft pick, not a second. If anything, you should punish the Yankees for singing these free agents and take away their first rounder next year as well. For as many Type As you sign, you give up just as many first rounders or what Mick said.

Or just give everyone supplemental picks instead of taking away picks from teams.

Really.. I guess I just don't understand why the worst team of the two doesn't get the first rounder. Based off rankings from a different group? How about base it off some definitive facts, like record.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:41 am

I think part of the frustration is they thought they'd were going to have 5 first round picks this year.....there own, 1 from CC, 1 from Sheets, and the 2 supplementals from those guys........now they have only 2 (there own and the sup from CC). Personally I find it funny cause you could see it coming from a mile away, but o well.

Him whining doesn't really bother me. more amusing than anything.....
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:56 am

npc29 wrote:
dnosco wrote:Guess what, you idiot. The same system that gave the Yankees pick to the Angels gave you a supplemental first round pick for a 41-year old freakin' situational lefty/setup guy.


That's exactly why the system is flawed.

I agree with jellis. If this happened to the Indians (and it would have if we didn't trade CC), we as fans would probably bitch about it.

I don't see how the way that worked out being fair for the Brewers, regardless of what Melvin thought he had and what complaining he's doing. A Type A Free Agent, especially one like CC Sabathia should garner you a first round draft pick, not a second. If anything, you should punish the Yankees for singing these free agents and take away their first rounder next year as well. For as many Type As you sign, you give up just as many first rounders or what Mick said.

Or just give everyone supplemental picks instead of taking away picks from teams.

Really.. I guess I just don't understand why the worst team of the two doesn't get the first rounder. Based off rankings from a different group? How about base it off some definitive facts, like record.


See, this is the problem. People cannot separate the result from the rules.

As I said, it took a perfect storm for the Brewers not to get a first round pick. Melvin never envisioned that. He already was counting his chickens before they hatched. He screwed up. I am sure he made promises to his bosses regarding return on investment in Sabathia and the trade and he was left with the proverbial egg on his face.

Regarding the rules, I agree. So, let's get the rules changed. Still, though, I think that it balances out in this case. He gets a really, really, totally undeserved first round pick for Shouse and he winds up with a second round pick for Sabathia.

Plus, he knew the rules going in. Yeah, he is ticked that he won't get picks for Sheets, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't change that the guy is a two-faced whiner. And you are right, Hermie. I am amused more than irritated. I just don't like people who bitch about things that don't favor them when it is all within the rules. Add the Shouse thing to that and it is comically fitting that this happened to this guy who, in my opinion, ate Shapiro's lunch on this trade.

EDIT: Regarding Cleveland fans bitching....you are probaby right. I don't know what difference that makes: comparing fans to someone who works in the industry and is subject to its rules, but you are right.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby npc29 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:57 pm

Oh I do agree about Melvin complaining.. I think us fans have a right to complain and bitch, because we are fans and really when it comes to the MLB or whoever making the decision, they won't really be taking our opinion into account, our overall opinion means very little in this regard. Melvin should probably keep his mouth shut or be a little smarter about what he says. Or even take it to the people who could change it. If you go public though, at least try to avoid calling the Elias rankings "stupid", makes you look kind of silly.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby jhonny » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:55 am

dnosco wrote:See, this is the problem. People cannot separate the result from the rules.

As I said, it took a perfect storm for the Brewers not to get a first round pick. Melvin never envisioned that.


Should he have, though?

Joe Sheehan has a good column up today on this. A "first round pick!" in compensation is generally worth less than you would think.

The same thing happened with AJ Burnett.

This isn't a once in a million years sort of thing.

The rules are overrated. That's why the Laporta trade is so good.
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby jhonny » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:57 am

by Joe Sheehan

In the discussion of Type-A free agents this winter, the term "first-round pick" is used about as often as "the" or "of." The perceived relative values of major league talent and first-round draft picks have been moving in opposite directions for a long time, and it appears that this winter, the two have crossed. Teams are less willing than ever to sign players and sacrifice that selection in the upcoming draft, and they're becoming more aware of how important good young baseball players who can be paid well below market value are to a baseball team.

We hear about the importance of these picks during the season as well, when teams are often faced with the decision of whether to trade an impending free agent, or keep him for a run at the postseason. The latter choice is often labeled as coming with "two first-round picks," short hand for compensation for a Type A free agent. In actuality, a Type-A free agent returns the signing team's first-round pick if and only if that team was one of the 15 best in baseball the previous season. In other cases, the team losing the free agent gets the signing team's second-round pick. This is designed to allow lesser teams to sign free agents without giving up such a high selection, one that would be a near-total disincentive to the signing of Type-A free agents.

As Rany Jazayerli's work has shown, the value of draft picks drops off linearly throughout the first round, so our shorthand of "two first-round picks," with its image of Evan Longoria or David Price sauntering to the compensated team, has always been in error. The correct compensation description for a Type A is "two picks in the first two rounds of the draft, one in the compensation round, and the other usually in the last half of the first round or first half of the second round." Not so sexy. The use of the term "first-round pick" to refer to compensation picks has always puzzled me as well, given that the list of those start at 31 (later now that teams get picks for not signing their previous year's draftees) and can run for nearly an entire round in itself, as it did in 2006. In 2009, there are 13 supplemental picks, with seven remaining free agents who would generate one if signed by a new team. There's no way that a pick in the forties should be deemed a "first-round pick," and if you care to use the term, you have to qualify it.

Let's see how this works in action. The Dodgers got four good years from Derek Lowe, and when they couldn't reach agreement on a contract for his services for 2009 and beyond, their fans no doubt consoled themselves with the idea that they would get "two first-round picks" when he left. In actuality, though, the Dodgers received the 36th and 53rd picks in the upcoming draft—neither in the first round—because Lowe signed with the Braves, whose poor 2008 season left them with the seventh overall selection, a pick that cannot be forfeited. Throw in some compensation picks for failing to sign 2008 first-rounders and teams who had worse records than the Dodgers, and the compensation for Lowe is not nearly that impressive.

Consider the plight of the Brewers, who saw CC Sabathia, their mid-season trade acquisition, signed by the Yankees... but because the Yankees signed Mark Teixeira as well, the Brewers will get just the 38th and 70th picks in the draft. Those numbers could go lower if Juan Cruz, Manny Ramirez, and Orlando Cabrera sign, creating even more compensation picks. The Blue Jays were the big losers of the winter; in addition to watching their second starter, A.J. Burnett, opt out of his contract and go to a division rival, they got just the 37th and 101st picks in the upcoming draft—their compensation reduced to a supplemental pick and a third-rounder because of the Yankees' shopping spree.

The Brewers and Blue Jays' situations were something of a fluke, but they do illustrate the risk in assuming that you'll get good compensation for the loss of a free agent. The best you'll ever do are the 16th and 31st picks (if you're the worst team in baseball and you sign a free-agent from the 16th-best team in baseball and there are no failure-to-sign compensation slots in the draft), which isn't all that impressive. The value of first-round picks drops off so substantially even after half a round that the compensation we've been so worked up about is actually not that great. We've overcorrected, as analysts and fans, caught up in the image of a "First-Round Pick!" that doesn't match the real compensation received. The reality is the Rockies getting the 32nd and 34th for Brian Fuentes, or the Diamondbacks getting the 17th and 35th for Orlando Hudson.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=8545
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:21 am

jhonny wrote:
dnosco wrote:See, this is the problem. People cannot separate the result from the rules.

As I said, it took a perfect storm for the Brewers not to get a first round pick. Melvin never envisioned that.


Should he have, though?

Joe Sheehan has a good column up today on this. A "first round pick!" in compensation is generally worth less than you would think.

The same thing happened with AJ Burnett.

This isn't a once in a million years sort of thing.

The rules are overrated. That's why the Laporta trade is so good.


Yeah, it's the Blue Jays that should be really POed. 3rd rounder for Burnett hurts.....
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Re: Doug Melvin - whiner, whiner, whiner!

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:39 pm

dnosco wrote:The supplemental first round pick order is determined by a number of things:

1. Type of free agent (Type A get higher selections than Type B)
2. Finish in the previous season of the team getting the pick (Mariners would get a higher pick than the Brewers than the Devil Rays)
3. Number of supplemental picks a team gets (i.e., every team gets one supplemental pick for a Type A before any team gets its second supplemental for a Type A, same for Type B)

As I remember there is NO taking into consideration of the ranking of the player.


Assuming you are accurate Dennis (& I have no reason to believe you aren't) doesn't it seem strange to have one system determine who gets the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick of a signing team and another system determine order of supplemental picks in the same draft? I would think the same system should be used to determine both items. Don't really care which system but it should only be one system.
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