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Marte DFA'd, RHP Salas added...(Edit: Marte clears waivers)

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Marte DFA'd, RHP Salas added...(Edit: Marte clears waivers)

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:15 pm

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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby npc29 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:17 pm

!!!!!
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:20 pm

Interesting....

Salas does have a decent arm and has done well in AAA (also has pitched decent at times in the MLs)......but seems a bit strange to add him with all the other options we have for the last bullpen spot....including Mujica who is out of options.

Salas is a strange case....does he have options left or no? Will be 30 soon but only has been pitching since 2004. Was signed as an infielder in 1999 by the Rays then switched ala Ankiel (though in reverse) in 2004.


Heard we had gotten a Rays pitcher....was kinda hopiong it was Niemann but o well, lol
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby npc29 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:32 pm

They DFAed him last week, so I'm assuming he's out of options
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:35 pm

npc29 wrote:They DFAed him last week, so I'm assuming he's out of options


They did it to make room for Shouse....doesn't mean he's out of options though he could be.....

The Tribe designated Aubrey for assignment yet he still had an option left.......
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:43 pm

More on Salas....


He suffers from epilepsy and had a seizure this past September. Also had visa issues and couldn't report to the US til the end of April. And was busted for PEDs in 2007......believe he was the first one to get the 50-game ban (but not positive).....

Does have an oustanding K/9 rate.....
Last edited by Hermie13 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:51 pm

Not sure.....but i think he may have an option left.....


All I could find was his contract was purchased in September of 2006.....he remained with the Rays the rest of that year; therefore, that wouldn't be an option year (never optioned to the minors). 2007 and 2008 saw him get optioned.....so that's 2....


Unless he was rostered then de-rostered sometime earlier in his career when he was still a 3B, then I think he's got an option left......


But not 100% sure....
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby petes999 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:02 pm

Even though we knew that Marte was going to be cut with Derosa ... I just thought we would give him one last chance like Philips in ST to see what he could do. Heck, wasn't Tuesday the first full workout???

And, as you said Hermie, we trade for a reliever when our bullpen is set. This guy is a 30 year old reliever ... so I doubt he has options. So, we will cut him at the end of camp or piss off Mujica, Meloan and others about not having a real competition if we are going to keep him for #7 role. Why not wait a few days and sign him to a minor league contract???

Velasquez seems like no loss ... #82 prospect ... yet could have provided depth in a weak middle infielder role. Tony projected him as a utility player at best. And, we know Shapiro ... he would spend $4 million or so for a washed up vet to fill that role anyways.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby petes999 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:04 pm

Hermie13 wrote:More on Salas....


He suffers from epilepsy and had a seizure this past September. Also had visa issues and couldn't report to the US til the end of April. And was busted for PEDs in 2007......believe he was the first one to get the 50-game ban (but not positive).....

Does have an oustanding K/9 rate.....


I wouldn't worry about epilepsy ... it can be handled with meds easily. Plus, Clinic is one of the best in the country/world at treating it.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby npc29 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:47 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
npc29 wrote:They DFAed him last week, so I'm assuming he's out of options


They did it to make room for Shouse....doesn't mean he's out of options though he could be.....

The Tribe designated Aubrey for assignment yet he still had an option left.......


Ya that's true, my bad.. I guess I just figured they'd have someone in a position to be released if they had someone with an option.

If he has an option, definitely more useful for Triple-A.


But yeah, my fault.. And it looks like it's confirmed, he has one left.

"He has a good arm and he's in the mix here," said Wedge. "He also has an option left."


http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... dy_ma.html
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Salas will join a crowded field for the final spot in Cleveland's bullpen.

"He's in the mix," Indians manager Eric Wedge. "He's got a live arm and he has an option left."


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3919539
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:31 pm

Don't forget that Marte is not really gone yet. If he clears waivers (likely) he will be outrighted to Columbus.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:39 pm

Consigliere wrote:Don't forget that Marte is not really gone yet. If he clears waivers (likely) he will be outrighted to Columbus.


Do you think?

I'm sure the Indians will be pushing to try and trade him personally. With the infield corners pretty full in Columbus (along with DH) is there really a place for Marte in AAA?

If you can swing a raw low-A flamethrower for him then I'd do it.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MickS » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:47 pm

If they can't trade him and he clears waivers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Marte granted an outright release. Then any club could sign him as a free agent and not worry about roster issues. There just isn't any room for Marte in the Indians system.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:56 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Don't forget that Marte is not really gone yet. If he clears waivers (likely) he will be outrighted to Columbus.


Do you think?

I'm sure the Indians will be pushing to try and trade him personally. With the infield corners pretty full in Columbus (along with DH) is there really a place for Marte in AAA?

If you can swing a raw low-A flamethrower for him then I'd do it.


Personally, I would rather keep Marte around in Columbus filling the backup 3B/1B role and DHing instead of using Aubrey in the role.

But, who is going to add them to their 40-man now? I don't see a team going out of their way to get him and just instead wait to see if he gets released (a possibility). I just don't see them outright releasing him though, especially given his history and how we got him. They'd at least give him the entire spring.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby npc29 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:05 pm

If they can get him through, I wouldn't care if he was around Columbus. But is he going to get much time there? Would they release Aubrey if that happened?

Because Aubrey said he was hoping some team would pick him up, of course anyone would say that in that position, but I don't remember reading anything following that that said "but I'm going to work hard to prove that I belong with the Indians" or something to that effect.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby jellis » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:12 pm

aubrey is done, every thing the indians have done makes it seem to me at best hes on the bench in AAA. I think his time has run up
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:24 pm

Definitely want to talk about this with the show tonight.....

One other thing I want to add, since there appears to be some confusion in the thread earlier: options are separate from 40 man listing.

Using an option means you are not on the major league roster but still on the 40 man roster.
In the case here with Marte, a 40 man roster spot needed to be opened to add Juan Salas. Marte could still have all his options and still needed to be waived/ exposed to waivers for the 40 man roster spot to be opened.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:46 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Definitely want to talk about this with the show tonight.....


So I should expect your call tonight, right? :s_wink
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Hermie13 wrote:More on Salas....


He suffers from epilepsy and had a seizure this past September. Also had visa issues and couldn't report to the US til the end of April. And was busted for PEDs in 2007......believe he was the first one to get the 50-game ban (but not positive).....

Does have an oustanding K/9 rate.....

Hey Hermie, do you know any more about the suspension? I didn't follow it closely but I seem to recall that Salas' defemse for the PEDs was that the meds were related to his epilepsy. I am not sure it is as easily treated as some seem to believe, especially since the normal drugs are banned by most sports. As i remember, ephedrine is a basic component of normal treatment.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:06 pm

Consigliere wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Don't forget that Marte is not really gone yet. If he clears waivers (likely) he will be outrighted to Columbus.


Do you think?

I'm sure the Indians will be pushing to try and trade him personally. With the infield corners pretty full in Columbus (along with DH) is there really a place for Marte in AAA?

If you can swing a raw low-A flamethrower for him then I'd do it.


Personally, I would rather keep Marte around in Columbus filling the backup 3B/1B role and DHing instead of using Aubrey in the role.

But, who is going to add them to their 40-man now? I don't see a team going out of their way to get him and just instead wait to see if he gets released (a possibility). I just don't see them outright releasing him though, especially given his history and how we got him. They'd at least give him the entire spring.

I think I can live with that if it happens. I am not a big believer in Audrey's value against his competition. I don't care if he is around if he does not impact playing time for prospects but Marte is better suited to this role IMO.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:22 pm

Consigliere wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Definitely want to talk about this with the show tonight.....


So I should expect your call tonight, right? :s_wink


:s_dunno Is water wet??? :s_sarcastic
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:56 pm

I mean Valesquez is not much of a prospect. But they essentially traded Marte and him for a guy who probably won't make it out of ST. Hundreds of guys have "great arms" and never make it in the majors. This guy is on the downward slide. Expecting anything from this was like expecting anything from Zach Jackson last year.

While I don't have a real problem with this...anytime you give up something and get nothing back (and, except for people who think Jesus Merchan will play a role for the Indians this year the rest of us are pretty sure we got nothing back) it is not a good day.

The bullpen must be a real mess if we are bringing in guys like this. I hope that is not the case.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MickS » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:11 pm

Wood, Perez, Lewis, Betancourt, Smith, Kobayashi, Mujica, Meloan, Miller, Salas, Sipp, Rundles, Newsom. Yeah, that bullpen is quite a mess Dennis. There are about two major league bullpens there. The F.O. obviously saw something in Salas that they liked and it didn't cost much to have a closer look.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby jellis » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:28 pm

MickS wrote:Wood, Perez, Lewis, Betancourt, Smith, Kobayashi, Mujica, Meloan, Miller, Salas, Sipp, Rundles, Newsom. Yeah, that bullpen is quite a mess Dennis. There are about two major league bullpens there. The F.O. obviously saw something in Salas that they liked and it didn't cost much to have a closer look.



they gave up nothing and got another BP arm option. As we all learned last year you can never have too many arms. With Sipp's linger injury issues. Miller having to prove he can stay healthy. Mujica blowing his chance last year, and for some reason the Indians don't see high on Newsom, which is dumb to me. Also Masa seemed to die last year and who knows if betancourt bounces back. Salas is worst case insurance and we got him for free
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 am

jellis wrote:
MickS wrote:Wood, Perez, Lewis, Betancourt, Smith, Kobayashi, Mujica, Meloan, Miller, Salas, Sipp, Rundles, Newsom. Yeah, that bullpen is quite a mess Dennis. There are about two major league bullpens there. The F.O. obviously saw something in Salas that they liked and it didn't cost much to have a closer look.



they gave up nothing and got another BP arm option. As we all learned last year you can never have too many arms. With Sipp's linger injury issues. Miller having to prove he can stay healthy. Mujica blowing his chance last year, and for some reason the Indians don't see high on Newsom, which is dumb to me. Also Masa seemed to die last year and who knows if betancourt bounces back. Salas is worst case insurance and we got him for free


So let me get this straight. We trade for a guy who is going to be AAA depth...and the guy is 30 years old and a AAAA guy? And we traded for him?

This guy is a freaking minor league signing kind of guy. Hey, they didn't give up much in Valasquez, to be sure, but they also had to DFA Marte and may get nothing for him, either, if he doesn't pass through waivers so that could turn out to be pretty significant for a AAAA guy of the type you could get on a minor league signing, don't you think.

The point here is that this guy was unneeded. You already have brought in a bunch of AAA relief depth AAAA guys. Why trade for this guy? What sense does it make to trade a bag of balls. Yeah, 30 year old guy who has failed multiple times but we see something in him with a loaded ML and AAA bullpen. And Jesus Merchan still might turn into a prospect.

Doesn't make any sense and, although not extremely costly, making no sense even in a minor aspect of the operation is something we can't afford.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby artgold » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:04 am

The guy we acquired is actually quite interesting.

Supposedly he is just a one pitch guy, a cut fastball that he easily gets into the mid 90's (source-BPro). He consistently has a very good (and significantly improving) BB/K an outstanding IP/K rate, and doesn't get hit hard by lefties. So I'd say that he is a decent injury depth guy to keep around at Columbus for the season, and at a pretty low cost in terms of prospects.

Losing Marte is irrelevant to me, I just don't see him as more than a marginal major league player, and that is a top end projection.

Looks good to me!
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby stoike » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:30 am

Okay, while I do not really understand the trade, it is no biggie....may give us more depth for the bullpen. I am sure this is what Shap was thiking.

FWIW....Salas has a 93-95 fastball and a "plus slider" according to BA. Maybe he will be a late bloomer like some of those RPs that the Angels have come up with. :s_dunno
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:57 am

stoike wrote:Okay, while I do not really understand the trade, it is no biggie....may give us more depth for the bullpen. I am sure this is what Shap was thiking.

FWIW....Salas has a 93-95 fastball and a "plus slider" according to BA. Maybe he will be a late bloomer like some of those RPs that the Angels have come up with. :s_dunno


He IS a late bloomer. He only started pitching in 2004 and has less than 250 TOTAL innings on his arm in his LIFE. And in AAA last year? 0.96 WHIP and 10.7 K/9 ratio. that's outstanding. He was also one of the final 4 considered for the Rays last playoff bullpen spot thanks to that K-rate of his. The job ultimately went to Price though (Niemann and Talbot were the other 2).


Given that he has an option and considering guys like Betancourt and Koby could be gone after this year, Wood could get hurt, Miller could get hurt or even moved to the rotation in 2010 (possible but wound't bet on it), Sipp's coming back from injury, Mujica may not make it out of camp, and Meloan has struggled at times....


Yeah, it makes no sense to bring in a guy who has a K/9 ratio over 10.


Tribe gave Marte his extra chance LAST year when he was out of options. You can argue that Wedge didn't give him enough chances to prove himself....but bottom line is that he didn't give him much reason to give him those chances. Tribe seems set to use Barfield instead as a bench guy. Sucks to see Marte go....but it was coming soon no matter what....


I still think there's a decent chance someone takes a shot at him. Giants, Mariners, Orioles, Twins, and Astros could all probably use him/take a chance on him. Mariners could use him as a platoon guy with Branyan and as a backup for Beltre. Beltre is likely to be dealt mid-season anyways. Orioles aren't as likely now with Wigginton....but could still see it. Giants seem less than hot for Crede now.....and that leaves 3B a bit of a mystery for them....they could afford to take a flyer on him and see if he can win the job. Astros are a mess and need cheap options....they brought in Boone on a minor league deal for basically what Marte could do.....could see a match there as well. And the Twins? Well....they aren't exactly set at 3B right now......Marte actually would be a decent fit there if they gave him a legit shot.


We'll see though. I do hope he makes it through and goes to Columbus. Maybe it'll be good for him......or not......
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:40 am

Again, don't get it. This guy is a freakin' minor league signee, nothing more. When you have to invoke 'late bloomer' stuff it is like I said, and Jesus Merchan could become a prospect, too.

YOU SIGN THESE GUYS AS MINOR LEAGUE FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe the rationalizations being given here: he hasn't been pitching long so he has lots of life left in his arm, etc., very interesting stuff (from a 30 year old who has failed multiple times) Amazing

Trading for a guy who you have to give a roster spot to who is a AAAA guy is just crazy. That's why those guys sign minor league deals.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:41 am

The trade for Salas leaves me confused. Why are we collecting so many veteran relievers? The big club bullpen really has only 1 opening, maybe. We also have plenty of kids in the organization that could be ready for a chance. I know depth is important, but do we need to add a 30-year old to the mix? On this team I could see collecting SP, or even OF.

It makes me wonder if a deal for one of the Raffys is being talked about. :s_scratchhead
Betancourt is making over $3M this season, and his spot could easily be taken by Miller.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:04 pm

dnosco wrote:Again, don't get it. This guy is a freakin' minor league signee, nothing more. When you have to invoke 'late bloomer' stuff it is like I said, and Jesus Merchan could become a prospect, too.

YOU SIGN THESE GUYS AS MINOR LEAGUE FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe the rationalizations being given here: he hasn't been pitching long so he has lots of life left in his arm, etc., very interesting stuff (from a 30 year old who has failed multiple times) Amazing

Trading for a guy who you have to give a roster spot to who is a AAAA guy is just crazy. That's why those guys sign minor league deals.


lol, there was ZERO chance of him signing as a minor league free agent. The Tribe liked him and only way to get him was trade. Just cause YOU think he's only a minor league free agent doesn't make him that. His got better stuff than anyone fighting for the last bullpen spot other than Miller.....and 'maybe' Meloan.

He pitched pretty well in 2007 in the MLs. Visa issues nixed his chance of making the club out of ST last year or he'd have been there.

Great trade IMO. Gave up nothing for something. Coudl still get something for Marte....who was gonna get designated anyways.


I love your double standards too. It was 'stupid' to sign that european catcher since he had no shot at the MLs...but it's also stupid to trade a LOW-A baller who has the same chance as that kid to make the MLs for a guy who HAS pitched in the MLs and can help the 2009 club? yeah, that makes about as much sense as a 3 dollar bill.

Great pickup by the Tribe. Will only help in 2009, can't hurt.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:31 pm

Gave up something for nothing, actually albeit how small, AND in a situation where we were stacked, I mean ABSOLUTELY, FREAKIN, stacked with relievers in the majors AND at AAA and, for that matter, at AA.

We didn't need him. He is a AAAA guy (career ML WHIP of about 1 1/2 including when he pitched "well" in 2007, as you stretched the truth about a 3.72 ERA and that WHIP), so lightly thought of that the Rays took an incredibly weak offer rather than lose him for nothing.

We didn't need him, he cost us a low ceiling prospect and forced our hand in DFAing Marte now and he isn't that good.

Your logic on Marte was also the same logic used on Brandon Phillips at the time he was DFA'd. Priceless.

And equating this to my comment about the non-entity European catcher who probably cost us a 6-figure bonus...priceless.

Hey, not a huge cost in terms of players but it is posts like yours "Great trade" , "Great pickup for the Tribe" and YOUR double standards (well, it is OK to lose Marte because he was worthless and was going to be lost anyway) that cause me to respond.

I wait for your post praising Shapiro for his signing of that late bloomer Jesus Merchan.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby TheWord » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm

We haven't even lost Marte yet.

And my curiosity can not resist...what do you suggest Shapiro should have done Dennis?
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:52 pm

dnosco wrote:Gave up something for nothing, actually albeit how small, AND in a situation where we were stacked, I mean ABSOLUTELY, FREAKIN, stacked with relievers in the majors AND at AAA and, for that matter, at AA.

We didn't need him. He is a AAAA guy (career ML WHIP of about 1 1/2 including when he pitched "well" in 2007, as you stretched the truth about a 3.72 ERA and that WHIP), so lightly thought of that the Rays took an incredibly weak offer rather than lose him for nothing.

We didn't need him, he cost us a low ceiling prospect and forced our hand in DFAing Marte now and he isn't that good.

Your logic on Marte was also the same logic used on Brandon Phillips at the time he was DFA'd. Priceless.

And equating this to my comment about the non-entity European catcher who probably cost us a 6-figure bonus...priceless.

Hey, not a huge cost in terms of players but it is posts like yours "Great trade" , "Great pickup for the Tribe" and YOUR double standards (well, it is OK to lose Marte because he was worthless and was going to be lost anyway) that cause me to respond.

I wait for your post praising Shapiro for his signing of that late bloomer Jesus Merchan.


Actually they are TOTALLY different. The Tribe did the exact OPPOSITE as to what they did with Phillips. They kept Marte on as a bench player for a whole season when he was out of options. They did NOT do that with Phillips.

And what 'double standards' have I provided? I praise moves that HELP the Tribe in 2009 and beyond, which this move has done.


Priceless....right. What's 'priceless' is ripping on moves that improve the team. good grief


I also find it hilarious (and pretty stupid) that you call Salas a AAAA guy when he's thrown less pro innings than guys like Jensen Lewis and Jon Meloan.....are those guys AAAA relievers now too? Salas has BETTER minor league numbers (WHIP, ERA, K/9). Only has 52 innings of ML experience spread over 3 seasons and isn't 'that' much worse than what Lewis has done (1.37 WHIP vs 1.48).

And the Tribe is FAR, FAR from loaded in the bullpen.

Masa and Betancourt are likely to be gone after this year (or could be at least). Heck, I wouldn't at all be shocked if Masa is cut in May or June ala Roberto Hernandez in 2007 if he doesn't pitch better than he did last year. Then you've got Wood and his injury issues. Perez throwing almost 80 innings last year. Lewis's inconsistencies last year. Betancourt's down year. Miller's injury history. Meloan's struggles last year (albeit as a starter in AAA). Sipp's injury and still coming back. Mujica and all his glory....

In fact, the Tribe is actually kinda thin in the bullpen in AA and in AAA it's only 'loaded' because of the addition of vets like Chulk.

Wouldn't say worried about the pen.....but more arms are NEVER a bad thing, period. We saw in 2007 how having WAY more relievers than you'd possibly need can turn out to be the best thing. 3 of the 7 that opened up with the team that year were cut (Cabrera, Davis, and Hernandez) and Fultz spent time on the DL. You need at least 10-12 arms for the pen if you want to win the division.

It was a great trade because you gave up a guy that had really no chance of sticking with this club in 3-4 years. You havne't given up Marte yet and may not even. If we lose him for nothing then the deal isn't 'as' good, but still solid.


And just curious, what did you think of the Reyes deal then? He was out of options (after the 2008 season) and a AAAA type player when we got him. Gave up a better prospect for him too. Sometimes other teams see something in a player that another doesn't. Not saying this is te case with Salas but until you see him pitch, you can't say this is a bad deal. Now maybe calling it 'great' wasn't hte best choice of words on my part....but it was definitely a good one, even if Salas turns into nothing.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:07 pm

dnosco wrote:Gave up something for nothing


I'm kinda on board with you Denny about not really seeing the point in the deal but, that said, what makes you differentiate Salas as nothing and Velasquez (and maybe Marte) as something.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:08 pm

I posted my take on the deal yesterday on a different message board for anyone that cares:

It just seems like an extra option where one isn't needed to me at this point. The old adage is you can't have enough pitching, but with seemingly 5/6 options for one spot, one more doesn't seem necessary.

Maybe it's a pre-cursor to a bullpen arm being traded, maybe they are 100% committed to Miller and Meloan starting the year in Columbus, or maybe they are looking at Salas as an option for AAA himself. Right now though, whilst I can't really criticise the move, I still don't really see the point in it.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:31 pm

"It was a great trade because you gave up a guy that had really no chance of sticking with this club in 3-4 years. You havne't given up Marte yet and may not even. If we lose him for nothing then the deal isn't 'as' good, but still solid.


And just curious, what did you think of the Reyes deal then? He was out of options (after the 2008 season) and a AAAA type player when we got him. Gave up a better prospect for him too. Sometimes other teams see something in a player that another doesn't. Not saying this is te case with Salas but until you see him pitch, you can't say this is a bad deal. Now maybe calling it 'great' wasn't hte best choice of words on my part....but it was definitely a good one, even if Salas turns into nothing."

First, let's address Reyes. He was in his 4th professional season when we got him. Guys in their fourth professional season are usually not considered AAAA guys especially when they have played in the majors in 3 of those 4. Plus, where was our deficit at that time? Starting pitching. At the time I didn't like it that much just because I never like to give up young players for guys who are against the option wall. I don't know if I would have done it on basic principles but it wasn't that over the top as he was young, experienced and we had a need. Salas is not young, he has experience, but we didn't have a need.

Second, your characterization of Valasquez (sp?) is minimizing and untrue. We don't know what we had in him because he was SO FAR from the majors. That is a common misconception. Far from the majors does not equate to worthless, which is what comments like you made seem to imply, even if you don't say it outright.

To help justify the trade you also minimize the risk of losing Marte for nothing. It is real and likely. If Shapiro pulls a rabbit out of his hat it will be to trade him for a low minors guy which, by analogy to what you said, is then essentially worthless. If we could get a guy the equivalent of what Perdomo was at the time of the trade, I could live with it, as he was up the chain of development pretty far.

Finally, we have A LOT of guys at AAA who, presumably, were brought on to be depth. Plus we have Miller and Meloan, two real prospects and a number of relievers who are one level down who might deserve a shot.

There is no need for this guy and, at the cost of Valasquez and Marte, probably way too much to pay for AAA depth when those guys are all available on minor league deals at no player cost.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:09 pm

Dennis, I cannot believe you are bringing up the Reyes-Perdomo trade as anything but brilliance on the part of the Indians. As I recall, you were the only one who trashed the trade and you were wrong. Reyes has given more value to the Indians than Perdomo ever gave to the Cards who let him go in the offseason. Let's not go revisionist. The Indians were smarter than you. You are fortunate we cannot recall your exact remarks from the trade.

You must be the only one who follows the Indians that thinks Marte was of some value to the Indians this year. They will likely get some player who is worth exactly what Perdomo was worth(dingleberries) or will be fodder in Columbus. You sound like Chicken Little at every move the Indians make! When the sky actually falls, then you will be right!
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:04 pm

dnosco wrote:"It was a great trade because you gave up a guy that had really no chance of sticking with this club in 3-4 years. You havne't given up Marte yet and may not even. If we lose him for nothing then the deal isn't 'as' good, but still solid.


And just curious, what did you think of the Reyes deal then? He was out of options (after the 2008 season) and a AAAA type player when we got him. Gave up a better prospect for him too. Sometimes other teams see something in a player that another doesn't. Not saying this is te case with Salas but until you see him pitch, you can't say this is a bad deal. Now maybe calling it 'great' wasn't hte best choice of words on my part....but it was definitely a good one, even if Salas turns into nothing."

First, let's address Reyes. He was in his 4th professional season when we got him. Guys in their fourth professional season are usually not considered AAAA guys especially when they have played in the majors in 3 of those 4. Plus, where was our deficit at that time? Starting pitching. At the time I didn't like it that much just because I never like to give up young players for guys who are against the option wall. I don't know if I would have done it on basic principles but it wasn't that over the top as he was young, experienced and we had a need. Salas is not young, he has experience, but we didn't have a need.

Second, your characterization of Valasquez (sp?) is minimizing and untrue. We don't know what we had in him because he was SO FAR from the majors. That is a common misconception. Far from the majors does not equate to worthless, which is what comments like you made seem to imply, even if you don't say it outright.

To help justify the trade you also minimize the risk of losing Marte for nothing. It is real and likely. If Shapiro pulls a rabbit out of his hat it will be to trade him for a low minors guy which, by analogy to what you said, is then essentially worthless. If we could get a guy the equivalent of what Perdomo was at the time of the trade, I could live with it, as he was up the chain of development pretty far.

Finally, we have A LOT of guys at AAA who, presumably, were brought on to be depth. Plus we have Miller and Meloan, two real prospects and a number of relievers who are one level down who might deserve a shot.

There is no need for this guy and, at the cost of Valasquez and Marte, probably way too much to pay for AAA depth when those guys are all available on minor league deals at no player cost.


lol, exactly. Just like we don't know what he have in that European catcher since he's 'SO FAR' from the majors. you just keep making my points for me.....


You're also assuming we get absolutely nothing for Marte.....which may very likely be the case.....or may not. According to reports (though by Hoynes) the Giants and the Twins are both interested in him. If one is interested enough they may be willing to give up a guy as good as Valasquez (yes, I too can't spell it, lol), which would in the end make it a Marte for Salas swap....which I'd do everyday of the week and twice on tuesdays.


Even if we don't get anythign for Marte. I'd make a Marte and Val-whatever for Salas. Salas can contribute to a winning club in 2009, neither Marte nor Val would, period.


I also wouldn't say 'a lot' of guys in AAA for depth. We brought in a lot of minor league free agents....but likely only 1 or 2 at most make the club. One is Chulk who has an opt out if he's not on the ML club by the 15th of May. Miller and Meloan are the only two real prospects in the AAA pen......and Meloan had a very inconsistent year last year in AAA (though admittedly in the rotation not the pen.....Salas though on the other had had a very good year in AAA).

Rundles isn't much younger than Salas (he'll turn 28 in June) and doesn't have anywhere close to the arm he has. A nice lefty to have around as depth...but that's it. Sipp is a bit of a mystery. He struggled some coming back from the injury. I am pretty interested in seeing how he does now that's over a year removed from the surgery....though he's never pitched above AA so we'll see how he does. A lot of people seem to like Randy Newsom....personally I think he should be in AA to start the year. WHIPs were 1.60 in AA and 1.55 in AAA. Salas takign his spot in AAA shouldn't bother anyone. Newsom actually walked more people than he struck out last year too (yikes).

Really, the only guys ahead of him are Miller and Meloan as far as stuff for righties. Miller may win the spot out of camp....leaving Meloan and him as the top 2 to get the callup. You'll see both (unless they get hurt) guaranteed at some point. Consider that in 2007 when we had a 'good' pen, we only had 3 of the 7 bullpen guys last the whole season on the big league club......2 were Borowksi and Mastny (the other was Betancourt). Tribe will likely need and use Salas's arm at some point in 2009, which makes the deal worth it.

Also, I'm guessing the Tribe sees Salas as more than just 'depth'. They could very well like his arm, much like they really liked Reyes's arm even before they got him. Until you know how the Indians plan on using him, you can't knock the deal. Wouldn't totally shock me to see Salas get the spot out of ST even (though I doubt it at the moment).
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:51 pm

More like, much like they liked Mota's arm, much like they liked Hernandez's arm, much like they like Scott Stewart's arm, much like they liked RIncon's arm last year, etc.

Regarding the AAA depth, I think you minimize Rundles and I think Sipp is exactly what he should be at this point, a question mark with ML upside, much like Salas (but with Sipp having MUCH more upside) and all of our AAAA minor league signees plus Meloan, Miller and Mujica.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MickS » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:17 pm

I'm still failing to grasp the issue here. How are Velasquez and Marte more usefull to us than Salas...unless the issue is an opportunity to complain?
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:52 am

How is Salas useful at all? How many options do we need to have in the bullpen before it is enough. Considering we were already about 5 deep at AAA before this trade, is this the wisest use of even the meager resources that this will cost us? Probably not. It makes no sense at all to stockpile AAA relievers considering that others are younger and as ready or just as AAAA as Salas is. Why don't we just trade for a AAAA first baseman because you can always use more depth at AAA? Same illogic applies. Giving away something for nothing and this nothing we did not need.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:36 am

dnosco wrote:Giving away something for nothing and this nothing we did not need.


Again Dennis, please explain how you consider Velasquez (and maybe Marte) as something, but see Salas as nothing?
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:20 am

First, Salas is a classic AAAA guy. To me, they are a dime a dozen and nothing. He is no better than Chulk, Cassel or any of the other guys we picked up for nothing. Plus, he was not picked up for any reason than to be AAA depth when we have the depth already. Plus, if he does get a shot, it could very easily be instead of TRUE prospects like Jon Meloan.

Whereas Velasquez may be something down the road and Marte still has a chance.

Hey, I am not saying that we gave up a lot but for a AAAA guy who isn't even in an area of need for this team?

That's what I meant.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MickS » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 am

I think Dennis is under-valuing Salas (who, from all reports has a live arm and a nasty slider) and over-valuing Velasquez (who profiles as a utility player and is far, far away from becoming a major leaguer, if he ever does become one) in order to make his usual "the front office is a bunch of f*ck-ups" argument. As for Marte, with Minn. acquisition of Crede, there goes one more team that might have had interest in Marte. I think S.F. or Hou. are really the only possibilities left. I'm beginning to think he'll clear waivers and then our challenge will be what to do with him. In other words we'll be right where we were before the Salas acquisition.

This will be my last post on this thread in order to avoid another pissing contest with Nosco, who will certainly dig in his heels and insist that the Tribe has made a catastrohic decision that will set the franchise back for at least a decade.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby dnosco » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:17 pm

MickS wrote:I think Dennis is under-valuing Salas (who, from all reports has a live arm and a nasty slider) and over-valuing Velasquez (who profiles as a utility player and is far, far away from becoming a major leaguer, if he ever does become one) in order to make his usual "the front office is a bunch of f*ck-ups" argument. As for Marte, with Minn. acquisition of Crede, there goes one more team that might have had interest in Marte. I think S.F. or Hou. are really the only possibilities left. I'm beginning to think he'll clear waivers and then our challenge will be what to do with him. In other words we'll be right where we were before the Salas acquisition.

This will be my last post on this thread in order to avoid another pissing contest with Nosco, who will certainly dig in his heels and insist that the Tribe has made a catastrohic decision that will set the franchise back for at least a decade.


As usual, exagerating my position on this subject.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby jellis » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:35 pm

I will be shocked if any team claims marte, his bat speed is bad and he has shown little ability over the past 3 years to be anything more than a bench guy
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:39 pm

MickS wrote:I think Dennis is under-valuing Salas (who, from all reports has a live arm and a nasty slider) and over-valuing Velasquez (who profiles as a utility player and is far, far away from becoming a major leaguer, if he ever does become one) in order to make his usual "the front office is a bunch of f*ck-ups" argument. As for Marte, with Minn. acquisition of Crede, there goes one more team that might have had interest in Marte. I think S.F. or Hou. are really the only possibilities left. I'm beginning to think he'll clear waivers and then our challenge will be what to do with him. In other words we'll be right where we were before the Salas acquisition.

This will be my last post on this thread in order to avoid another pissing contest with Nosco, who will certainly dig in his heels and insist that the Tribe has made a catastrohic decision that will set the franchise back for at least a decade.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you either but I do not think I would describe Salas' slider as nasty. As a comparison, think Raffy R pre 2007. Not a lot of deception or command. I think the trade is fine. Salas came from a good, deep staff. No embarrassment to be cut. For two of the last three years the tribe bullpen has gone to hell in a handbasket. Can we really have too many ML arms? Would one of these guys be valuable as a trade? I don't have the answers. As long as no one of significance is blocked, it is hard to work up big enthusiasm one way or the other. Just a front office who found a low cost piece who might have some value this year. I think that is their job.
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Re: Marte DFA'd -Indians acquire RHP Juan Salas

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:10 pm

I see that with the Crede signing, the Twins put reliever Pat Nescek on the 60 day DL.
Didn't think that was an option until later in camp. :s_scratchhead

Considering the case of Westbrook, if the Tribe really wanted to keep Marte a little while longer, Jake could have gone on the 60 day now.

Marte might not have the 'soft landing' of Cbus available as some might have thought.
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