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Hindsight is 20-20

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Hindsight is 20-20

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:04 pm

First, let me say that I'm down with most everything Shapiro has done this off season. DeRosa is a solid vet IF, Smith should add the unusual to the pen, and if Wood is Wood; it's great to play 8 inning games.

But at the start of the off season it was speculated that this would be tough times for some free agents. CC and the big names would get theirs. But who thought there would still be so many good ballplayers out there as camps are ready to open. The Indians are at their budget limit now. But if we didn't sign Wood to the big money, we certainly would have more flexibility now.
Would you rather have a 2nd tier closer, but maybe sign people like Orlando Hudson, Adam Dunn, or Ben Sheets to 1-year deals? The club would have a different look, but maybe be central division favorites. :s_drinks
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:48 pm

The Tribe might already be AL Central favorites when you consider what the other clubs have done or not done.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:05 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:First, let me say that I'm down with most everything Shapiro has done this off season. DeRosa is a solid vet IF, Smith should add the unusual to the pen, and if Wood is Wood; it's great to play 8 inning games.

But at the start of the off season it was speculated that this would be tough times for some free agents. CC and the big names would get theirs. But who thought there would still be so many good ballplayers out there as camps are ready to open. The Indians are at their budget limit now. But if we didn't sign Wood to the big money, we certainly would have more flexibility now.
Would you rather have a 2nd tier closer, but maybe sign people like Orlando Hudson, Adam Dunn, or Ben Sheets to 1-year deals? The club would have a different look, but maybe be central division favorites. :s_drinks


I'd rather have DeRosa than Hudson. Hudson is vastly overrated. His defense has taken a tumble and he's getting up there in age. We chose a second tier starter (Pavano) over a second tier closer.....Shapiro felt the closer spot was of bigger concern and I agree.

I like what we added more than if we would have added Sheets and say Lyon as a closer....but everyone has their own opinions. Shapiro and company seem to think Francisco is their guy in LF.....so they were never really gonna go after Dunn....though I think he'd be a great fit for us.


And I agree with madthinker.....the Tribe is the favorites right now. White Sox traded away a lot and have gone backwards. Twins are still young and have some bullpen/infield issues.....they will still be tough though. Detroit still has no pitching. And KC is better...but not that much really.

Not saying the tribe is a 'great' team....but this division is very weak.....
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby npc29 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:33 pm

I'd still rather have Kerry Wood over someone like Lyon and a Ben Sheets or Adam Dunn.

There is a reason they are still out there.. If they were really worth it (and I don't believe they are just out there because of their asking price) they'd be signed by now.

Didn't it come out today or yesterday that Ben Sheets might need surgery? I'd rather risk a million bucks on Pavano who checked out medically than a year deal on Sheets who failed a physical with Texas. As much as I like Sheets, he's damaged.

And Adam Dunn? Yikes... I'd rather avoid that guy. Everyone likes to get on him because of strike outs.. But is he going to continue hit 40 home runs in the American league, away from the Great American Ballpark? I don't know about that.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby toledobuck » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:55 pm

Sheets is likely out for the year due to his recurring injuries. There are reasons beyond the bad economy that have some of these more popular FA names still out there on the open market. Shap has done a pretty good job. I still am very suspect of the rotation but everything else seems to be in place.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:11 pm

npc29 wrote:I'd still rather have Kerry Wood over someone like Lyon and a Ben Sheets or Adam Dunn.

There is a reason they are still out there.. If they were really worth it (and I don't believe they are just out there because of their asking price) they'd be signed by now.

Didn't it come out today or yesterday that Ben Sheets might need surgery? I'd rather risk a million bucks on Pavano who checked out medically than a year deal on Sheets who failed a physical with Texas. As much as I like Sheets, he's damaged.

And Adam Dunn? Yikes... I'd rather avoid that guy. Everyone likes to get on him because of strike outs.. But is he going to continue hit 40 home runs in the American league, away from the Great American Ballpark? I don't know about that.


Have you seen him hit? His power is by no means just a product of GAB. Switching from NL to AL might hurt him a little at first, but he's about the safest bet still on the market to give you very good offense from a corner position. A reason why he's still unsigned might be because his asking price is still too high, and there are quite a few old-fashioned GM's out there who can't see beyond batting average, strikeouts and speed.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby jellis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:14 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
npc29 wrote:I'd still rather have Kerry Wood over someone like Lyon and a Ben Sheets or Adam Dunn.

There is a reason they are still out there.. If they were really worth it (and I don't believe they are just out there because of their asking price) they'd be signed by now.

Didn't it come out today or yesterday that Ben Sheets might need surgery? I'd rather risk a million bucks on Pavano who checked out medically than a year deal on Sheets who failed a physical with Texas. As much as I like Sheets, he's damaged.

And Adam Dunn? Yikes... I'd rather avoid that guy. Everyone likes to get on him because of strike outs.. But is he going to continue hit 40 home runs in the American league, away from the Great American Ballpark? I don't know about that.


Have you seen him hit? His power is by no means just a product of GAB. Switching from NL to AL might hurt him a little at first, but he's about the safest bet still on the market to give you very good offense from a corner position. A reason why he's still unsigned might be because his asking price is still too high, and there are quite a few old-fashioned GM's out there who can't see beyond batting average, strikeouts and speed.



I agree there is no question mark next to his power and will in the top 5 of all of baseball in HR next year, too many GM liek that idiot in tor still go by avg and not OBP so thats why no has bitten yet
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:38 am

I agree that Dunn's HR total really wasn't helped that much by GABP though.....now the distance of those HRs? yikes. I saw a few games there and never saw a HR of his barely clear a fence, was always 30-40 feet back into the seats. He's country strong. If he were on a better team during his career he'd be making Ryan Howard money and be getting that kind of attention.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby npc29 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:11 pm

I wasn't referring just to Great American Ball Park, but rather the National League in addition to that.. He has power, but if you take him out not just his home park, but the league he's always been in, is he going to get a chance to display that power?

His home-road splits don't indicate he's a product of his park.. But I just wonder how he'd fair switching leagues.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby cardiackidz » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:10 am

Dunn would have 40+ knocks wherever he plays. the big donkey has always had big power and a great eye.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:25 am

npc29 wrote:I wasn't referring just to Great American Ball Park, but rather the National League in addition to that.. He has power, but if you take him out not just his home park, but the league he's always been in, is he going to get a chance to display that power?

His home-road splits don't indicate he's a product of his park.. But I just wonder how he'd fair switching leagues.


NL parks have actually gotten bigger than AL parks....and a lot of good pitchers are moving over to the NL (though CC obviously came back). I don't think he'd be that hurt by switching leagues. Would be a bit of an adjustment period (see Miguel Cabrera), but in the end, he'd have a great year as usual.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby TheWord » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:24 am

The only thing I would have liked to see the Indians do this offseason is look harder at a guy like Dayan Vaciedo.

Missing out on a potential impact 3B bat and letting him go to a division rival is never a good thing.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:44 am

I agree Word. I'm giving the Tribe the benefit of the doubt right now....maybe they did look at him and just didn't like what they saw......but still stings, especially after seeing Alexi Ramirez sign with the Sox last year.....
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby jellis » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I agree Word. I'm giving the Tribe the benefit of the doubt right now....maybe they did look at him and just didn't like what they saw......but still stings, especially after seeing Alexi Ramirez sign with the Sox last year.....



why would anyone in there right mind give big money to an already out of shape player, how many players find the desire to work harder after a big contract, much smarter move was to save the money for the draft rather than use it an Dayan, yes Alexi had an ok year last year but I think must people in baseball expect him to nose dive this year thanks to his nonexistent pitch recognition or location skills
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby TheWord » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:57 am

Thats where the whole "scouting" thing comes in.

You have to meet and judge character, see if he is willing to do what it takes to get in shape and have a successful career.

According to the White Sox, he's already slimmed down and is killing the ball. He may make an impact at the age of 19.

Dude is good.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:21 am

jellis wrote:why would anyone in there right mind give big money to an already out of shape player, how many players find the desire to work harder after a big contract, much smarter move was to save the money for the draft rather than use it an Dayan, yes Alexi had an ok year last year but I think must people in baseball expect him to nose dive this year thanks to his nonexistent pitch recognition or location skills


um....what are you talking about with Alexi? He has VERY good pitch recognition. He only struck out 61 times in over 500 plate appearances. Also hit .290!

Now, plate DISCIPLINE? That he sorely lacks. But you can still be a solid player (especially for the money he's making.....we'd have been better to sign him and not trade for Carroll....in hindsight obviously).

And I agree, Dayan may not be that out of shape....and some reports do say he's slimming down. Plus, look at CC. He got bigger with us....but also was still growing as he wasn't 21 even when he first came up....but he stayed in good shape relatively speaking, even after we gave him around $20M (which is more than what Dayan got). Reports indicate Dayan can play the OF too.....which to me says he has some athletism. Plus it's not a super long-term deal....he knows he needs to play to remain in this country.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby jellis » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:49 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:why would anyone in there right mind give big money to an already out of shape player, how many players find the desire to work harder after a big contract, much smarter move was to save the money for the draft rather than use it an Dayan, yes Alexi had an ok year last year but I think must people in baseball expect him to nose dive this year thanks to his nonexistent pitch recognition or location skills


um....what are you talking about with Alexi? He was VERY good pitch recognition. He only struck out 61 times in over 500 plate appearances. Also hit .290!

Now, plate DISCIPLINE? That he sorely lacks. But you can still be a solid player (especially for the money he's making.....we'd have been better to sign him and not trade for Carroll....in hindsight obviously).

And I agree, Dayan may not be that out of shape....and some reports do say he's slimming down. Plus, look at CC. He got bigger with us....but also was still growing as he wasn't 21 even when he first came up....but he stayed in good shape relatively speaking, even after we gave him around $20M (which is more than what Dayan got). Reports indicate Dayan can play the OF too.....which to me says he has some athletism. Plus it's not a super long-term deal....he knows he needs to play to remain in this country.



before alexi who I will admit had a solid year when was the last time any cuban made good on his promise Oranldo hernadez?, rather just save the money and spend on a expensive pick
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Re: Hindsight is 20-20

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:11 pm

jellis wrote:before alexi who I will admit had a solid year when was the last time any cuban made good on his promise Oranldo hernadez?, rather just save the money and spend on a expensive pick


Depends what you mean by promise.....as I don't recall any Cuban ballplayers making any promises....

But Livan Hernandez and Jose Contreras were both good MLers.

Though there's a big difference here....Dayan is only 19, whereas most Cuban free agents are in their 30s when they get here.

You don't see many teenagers/early 20 year olds coming out of Cuba the way Dayan did or Ramirez did last year (was only 26).

And when you do, they are usually forced to enter the ML draft like Yunel Escobar was in 2005 after emmigrating in 2004 washing up on shore in Miami. There were some issues with Dayan as well, where some thought he should have been forced to enter the draft. Scouts/analysts thought he'd be a mid-to-late 1st round pick.....which may have netted him as much money as he got anyways (several late 1st rounders get ML deals)....
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