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Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

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Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:02 pm

Ok, no truth to this at all (just me and a few Philly fans talking)....but when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

The Phillies are looking for a right-handed hitting bat, preferably one that plays the infield with position flexibilty......which is exactly what Carroll is.

The guys they are reportedly looking at are Garciaparra, Aurilla, Mark Grudz, and Ty Wigginton among others.

The report also says they have only $3M to spend on that bat (or are willing to). That pretty much eliminates Wigginton. The Twins looked at him but balked at his asking price. I can't imagine they'd have balked if it was only $3M. He's reportedly looking for Casey Blake money.

Aurilla would be a good fit......though isn't much of a 2B or 3B anymore, and the Giants are reportedly interested in bringing him back, and he's showing mutual interest there (they don't have a 1B or 3B at the moment). Garciaparra is a mystery.....always hurt it seems, plus could pull a Lofton and decide that $3M isn't enough for him and retire.

Grudz is probably the best overall hitter of the group....but he's aging and hitting like he has, may cost more than $3M still. He'll likely also want to start and won't get that in Philly.



So who else is there? In steps Jamey Carroll. He can play 2B or 3B (Felix and Utley have some injury issues) plus SS and the OF if needed. He put up a OBP over .350 last year and had a solid 2006 season as a starting 2B in the NL (though bad 2007). His speed and skills would play well back in the NL. He showed last year that he's a GREAT fill-in for an injury. He hit .352 during the month of June when filling in for Cabrera (who was demoted) and Barfield (who was hurt) at 2B. Not a guy you'd start 162 games....but the phillies with Utley at 2B, Rollins at SS, and Felix at 3B don't need 162 games out of Carroll or any other signing/trade.

Carroll also only makes $2.5M......which last time I checked was less than $3M. I've floated this idea on another board and almost unaimously the Phillies fans and others have loved the idea. It does make perfect sense for the Phillies....but how much for the Tribe?

Well for starters we'd save over $2M, which always is helpful. We'd lose a very valuable bench player, which hurts......but the Tribe does seem high on Valbuena. He could easily step in and be the utility guy taking Carroll's spot. Can play 2B, SS, and 3B if needed. With Peralta, DeRosa, and Cabrera (with Barfield starting at 2B in AAA), you really shouldn't have to use your utility guy all that much anyways. So considering all this....it does make some sense for the Tribe. Obviously there's no dire 'need' to trade him though. But for something decent in return it could be very beneficial....

Who would the Tribe want in return then?

One guy I'd love to see come back is Jason Donald. He's a SS but played 2B and 3B in the AFL (where he absolutely DESTROYED the pitching there....his OPS at one point was over 1.300!!!). SS and 2B are the best positions for his skill set.....but in Philly they have a couple guys you may have heard of at those positions......Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utely. He's not going to be seeing time there for a long while (Utely is signed long-term....not sure on Rollins though). He's also never played above AA.....so a utility role in 2009 really isn't what he needs or should be used as.

The Phillies may balk at a Donald for Carroll straight up deal.....but the Tribe could add a lefty starter like Lewis or Laffey. The Phillies have some question marks about their #5 starter. One one those could win the job or at worst provide depth (they do have a 46 year old Moyer in that rotation). Tribe would want something else in return then too, but something could be worked out likely (no Carrasco or Marson obviously).



I don't see the Tribe trading Carroll.......but the Phillies are a great match (as I've said for a while now).....and if Valbuena has a nice spring, Carroll could become expendable......

Thoughts??
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:55 pm

The value of Carroll lies in that he can play multiple positions and has a solid bat off the bench. Valbuena is strictly a 2nd baseman, or at least that's what they want him to focus. He's also very unproven at the major league level and making him come off the bench could mess with his development.

Besides, why would they want Carroll if they could just as easily use Donald. I don't see a match quite frankly, because we're looking for pitching or maybe a corner outfield bat, but even that's unlikely, so this doesn't make much sense to me.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby MickS » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:00 pm

Who is the Indians versatile utility guy if Carroll is traded? This makes no sense to me.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:04 pm

Donald hasn't played above AA yet.....why would they waste him on the bench then? Valbuena played SS and 3B last year, even SS in a ML game with the Mariners. No one is saying he'll be an everyday SS or 3B at the ML level, but he may end up just a utility guy and he'll manage at those spots. Valbuena should (and will) play some SS in AAA this year. If Hodges improves he could easily start ahead of Valbuena. Then what? Does Valbuena just sit in the minors then as a 2B like Barfield has lately? Makes more sense to at least get some versatility out of him.


According to an article on indians.com, the Tribe is planning on keeping Barfield over Marte as a bench player.....Tribe could go with Marte and Barfield on the bench if they traded Carroll. Carroll can play SS...but didn't last year and likely wouldn't this year with Peralta and Cabrera being able to play the position (and DeRosa can too in a pinch....actually played there once last year).

Marte is a better defensive 3B than Carroll....and Barfield isn't really much worse than Carroll defensively at 2B. Barfield has as much, if not more speed than Carroll as well. Tribe loses a nice vet, but not a whole lot else would be missed.


We can agree to disagree....but I still see a great match here. Tribe does need pitching...but we would need a proven #3 or 4 starter. we can't afford that so it's not coming. Philly needs a depth starter or possibly a #5. Tribe has 4 of those guys. One is very tradeable.


Again, I don't see us trading Carroll.....but Donald (as others have said), would be a great addition to this club. I'd go as far to say he'd have as good a chance if not better than Valbuena or Hodges starting for the Tribe in 2010.....
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:05 pm

MickS wrote:Who is the Indians versatile utility guy if Carroll is traded? This makes no sense to me.


Valbuena, Marte, Barfield....we have 3. Not to mention DeRosa.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby dnosco » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:15 pm

The value of Carroll lies in that he can play multiple positions and has a solid bat off the bench.


OK, I assume the logic here is if you keep saying that Carroll has a solid bat off the bench it will actually, for the first time, start to be true.

C'mon, the guy has a career OPS of barely .700.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bs ... 01&year=00

He plays mostly 2B and 3B, at both of which he is substandard offensively. He does have a career BA of .366 as a pinch hitter but has 2 XBH in 102 PA as a pinch hitter meaning he is good to start an inning, but probably isn't much pinch hitting in the clutch with 9 RBI in 102 PA as a pinch hitter.

Bottom line, he isn't good offensively and is even worse coming off the bench, unless he is trying to START a rally.

For a 1 or 2 game stretch he isn't a disaster to have in the lineup offensively and he probably provides some defense and intangibles. It is up to the experts in the Indians' organization to see if that is worth $2.5 million a year.

Certainly, right now, I think the Indians have made their choice on Carroll and this team would be weaker if we traded him and had to backfill his position from within.

We all know I would have traded Carroll and brought in Omar and I see the reasons why people don't want to do that. But to trade Carroll without a good alternative who either adds something or gives you the same thing for a cheaper price? I am thinking not, unless we can foist off Carroll and Dellucci for Donald or someone like that. That being the case I might settle for a minor league free agent utility man or Valbuena and take the gamble that whoever you get won't have to play much.

Again, don't see the Indians doing it and I don't think they should unless the overall outcome (say dumping Dellucci and getting someone decent back) made it worth our while.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby TheWord » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:40 pm

Given Carroll has one year left on his deal, you would not get a Jason Donald type prospect in return.

Probably a lower level guy in the 15-20 group of prospects.

Nobody is giving away a potential starting SS prospect for a 1 year utility rental.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:49 pm

Carroll did have an OBP over .350 last year and hit .352 in June when he was the full-time starting 2B (and for more than a day or two).....not a stud off the bench, but he won't embarass himself.

I understand people's reservations about trading Carroll (though I find it funny as it seemed 90% of people complained both when we got him and picked up his option but whatever).....but some of the reasonign behind it doesn't make sense.

Ripping Carroll's offensive skills then saying we don't have anyone that could do as well? Really? You don't think Valbuena who had a .382 OBP and 11 HRs in the minors last year could put up numbers close to Carroll's in backup duties? I could buy that if you thought Carroll was a good bench player....but doesn't sound like many people do.

Barfield had a terrible year, but would he be 'that' bad as just a utility guy? Can play 2B and likely will have some OF experience after ST. With DeRosa, Cabrera, and Peralta's defensive versatility we don't need a guy playing a lot of positions. Barfield has the speed you like from a utility man. Couple that with Marte's glove at 3B and 'potential' (if you can call it that anymore) to hit the long-ball, and I don't see 'that' big a drop-off.

You definitely do lose something with trading Carroll for the 2009 season.....but money may be the biggest thing you get here. Not to make a move now, but could open up more of a change for a mid-season acquisition should the need arise. And if absolutely needed, you can grab a utility guy. They don't need to hit at all really, it's about defense and speed really (for pinch-running). Looch is the guy that'll pinch-hit. Traditionally decent at it (though struggled last year). We got Gomez off waivers in 2007 for nothing but the cost of his salary. Things like that happen a lot.

There's still guys you could grab to replace him with minor league deals (Uribe just got one for example). A guy like Alex Cintron could work. Decent BA and OBPs. Can play all over the IF and would cost the league minimum. You want a 'vet' you could go with Damion Easley. Is 39, no one (at least in their right mind) would give him a a guaranteed deal. Invite him to ST then and see if he couldn't win out the UT job.

Tony Graffino signed a minor league deal with us last year coming back from an injury. Played pretty well once healthy. Another guy you could grab for nothing. A good vet to have around too.


I can understand wanting to keep Carroll.....but it shouldn't be because there are no other options out there. Losing him would hurt a bit....but he's a backup infielder.....it wouldn't hurt much at all. The money saved may actually outweigh it.....


And again, just throwing an idea out there. Don't see it happening at all.....
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:50 pm

TheWord wrote:Given Carroll has one year left on his deal, you would not get a Jason Donald type prospect in return.

Probably a lower level guy in the 15-20 group of prospects.

Nobody is giving away a potential starting SS prospect for a 1 year utility rental.


No one said they would. I said Carroll and a pitcher for Donald and another prospect.....


Also, Donald projects more as a 2B to most scouts.....not that it makes a difference really....
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby MickS » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:01 pm

Hermie, maybe you should look the word versatile up in the dictionary. Since when did Marte, Barfield or Valbuena become versatile?
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:18 pm

Valbuena played AS MANY POSITIONS as Carroll did last year (3). Valbuena can play 2B, SS, and 3B. Marte can play 1B and 3B. Barfield can play 2B and likely will be playing some OF by the time the season starts.


So to answer your question. Valbuena became versatile when he showed he could handle SS and 3B last year. Marte became it when he showed he could move across the diamond and play some 1B last year. Barfield has played SS and a game in the OF in the minors. He's the one that's not really versatile right now, but he's gonna be playing some OF in ST according to Wedge and Shapiro.

Anymore questions? lol, just kidding :s_howdy
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:37 pm

why do you post these things? I don't mind discussion at all, especially since the offseason has been very slow the last couple of weeks, but you're saying yourself that you don't see this happening at all and the subject line is a little misleading.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:38 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Donald hasn't played above AA yet.....why would they waste him on the bench then?


If the Indians traded Carroll they wouldn't waste Donald on the bench either.... nor would they waste Valbuena in that role.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:44 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Donald hasn't played above AA yet.....why would they waste him on the bench then?


If the Indians traded Carroll they wouldn't waste Donald on the bench either.... nor would they waste Valbuena in that role.


Never said the Tribe would with Donald. Donald is gonna start in AAA no matter where he's at. My point was someone said we'd be wastign Valbuena on the bench.....then asked why wouldn't hte Phillies just use Donald on the bench.....the answer is the same......but even worse. Donald is a top 5 prospect never playing above AA. Valbuena isn't even a top 10 and has ML experience playing multiple positions....


Valbuena really wouldn't be 'wasted' in a utility role. He may never become a starting 2B in this league. In any case, I just used Valbuena as an example. Tribe could easily go with a bench of Marte and Barfield for the infield. Covers 1B, 2B, and 3B. SS is covered by DeRosa, Peralta, and Cabrera......so defensively, there's no problem.

Tribe is gonna go with one of Marte or Barfield on the bench (sounds like Barfield from Shapiro's last interview). So you'd be swapping one for Carroll.....which is a bit of a downgrade......but not enough to really hurt this club in the long run.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby MickS » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:50 pm

You don't own a dictionary, do you Hermie? Barfield is the farthest thing from versatile (i.e., he can't play 3b or SS). Marte is also not versatile. Valbuena is more versatile but I can't see him sitting on the bench most of the time. Carroll's value comes from being able to play 3B, SS, 2B. DeRosa doesn't count because he's not a utility guy, he's an every day player. Admit it, your idea is beyond stupid.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:53 pm

lol, you don't watch or follow the Indians then do you? Barfield like I said right now isn't versatile, but the Tribe is planning on having him play the OF this spring, thus giving him some versatility.

Marte played as many infield positions as Carroll last year.....he's not 'as' versatile, but still is.

Carroll will play ZERO games at SS this year. His value comes from playing 2B and 3B. DeRosa DOES count because if you wanted to give Cabrera a day off you could use DeRosa at 2B and Marte at 3B. You don't NEED Carroll on this team at all.

He is still very valuable to this team. I'm not saying otherwise.

My idea is FAR from stupid. Saves the team over $2M and may actually put a better bat on the bench....hmm, yeah that's soooo stupid. good grief


You can argue that the deal won't happen, but c'mon. You're just ignoring facts now.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:43 pm

Also, remember who our utility guy was in 2007? you know, the year we were 1 game from the World Series? o yeah, Mike Rouse. You don't need a great utility guy unless you have a question mark on the infield or an injury concern, which the Phillies have (two actually in Felix and Utely).

in the most unlikely of scenarios that Carroll would be traded (to anyone). Marte would likely be guaranteed a roster spot.....he was a utility infielder/bench guy last year....so no change to the team. Either Barfield or Valbuena (both who have options left) would get the last spot then. Are either that much 'worse' than Carroll in a utility role?

Barfield has as much if not more speed, which was one of Carroll's best attributes. His ability to play SS is pointless. Even his ability to play 3B isn't really that special with the acquisition of DeRosa. Carroll does have much better plate discipline than Barfield. Defensively they're about equal at 2B...you could easily argue Carroll is a little bit better though. Age wise, Carroll will be 34. Barfield his mid-20s. Carroll is only gonna start going down hill skill-wise, whereas Barfield still has some growing to do likely. Cost is definitely in Barfield's favor....by about $2M.


So comparing Barfield and Carroll:

Speed: both have it....advantage Barfield though

Defense: both are adequate 2B's......maybe slight advantage to Carroll

Power: Neither is a bomber....but Carroll has none. Barfield has some.....Advantage Barfield

Hitting: Carroll had a good year....but was terrible in 2007. Both were good in 2006.....slight advantage Carroll (based on walks)

Versatility: Carroll can play 3B and SS that Barfield really can't....advantage Carroll

Cost: Carroll makes $2.5M.....Barfield makes about $500K......advantage Barield

Leadership: Carroll is a nice vet.....advangtage Barfield


Barfield really isn't that much worse a utility option than Carroll. Barfield does have some potential still as shown by his rookie year. If he can find any of that again, he'd actually be a much better backup infielder for the Tribe.

Can do the same for Valbuena.....comes out about the same. Valbuena had 11 HRs last year so more power. As good of plate discipline though.


Tribe shouldn't trade Carroll just to trade him. But a good offer and the Tribe wouldn't really be hurt at all.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby MickS » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:51 pm

Barfield is a 2b. He cannot play SS or 3B. Therefore, he is not a versatile utility infielder. Maybe he can play a little LF, but that is not where the need is. What the F is your point?
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:50 am

end of the day the philles would laugh if offered that package, and you cant argue versatility if it is as of yet unproven. Barifeld can barely play 2B, we have argued the util role before and you dont seem to grasp what it is a util guy is for, if anything the best util guy for the tribe if they moved Carrol might be gimineiz in AAA as he can play anywhere on the diamond
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby dnosco » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:05 am

Hey, I was the first to say that Carroll is mucho replaceable...but only because I believe utility infielders are replaceable. That being said, I don't see the Indians doing it as I said above. They love Carroll.

Me, if I could package him and Dellucci and get a younger guy who can be a solid utility infielder this year with some upside (maybe Macier Izturis, would that even be possible?) I would do it. Not that it could be done but I would do it.

Hey, I wanted Omar back and Carroll traded and I am the one saying utility infielders are worth zero win shares so who cares which one you have so I am on board this train. I just don't see it ever leaving the station!

Plus, if you were going to trade Carroll, you sure haven't positioned yourself with any backup plan as I truly don't believe that Valbuena is a current option and that they would keep a guy (Barfield) who would require potentially two other players to switch positions and a third one to go to the bench just to get him in the lineup.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby npc29 » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:30 am

MickS wrote:Barfield is a 2b. He cannot play SS or 3B. Therefore, he is not a versatile utility infielder. Maybe he can play a little LF, but that is not where the need is. What the F is your point?


I think he can play SS and 3B.. If he plays it well enough to be a utility infielder or not is probably another question.


I don't understand the rationale behind Marte being a versatile player though..
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:55 am

Seeing a new topic with this heading really annoys me. There's nothing here other than a fantasy, please don't post it as if it may be happening. It's not even a rumor. Why not post a topic "Grady in an Automobile Accident?" Then when we all freak and click on it, we find out "gosh, there's nothing to it, but I just wondered what would happen if he WAS in an accident?"

And calling Andy Marte "versatile" clinches it for me... NO MORE HERMIE THREADS!!!
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:05 am

Please do not give misleading thread titles. If it is pure speculatation and a pipedream/fantasy coming from you the poster, please indicate so on the thread title. :s_yes

As for the idea....kinda a moot point. Valbuena is playing 2B this year. That's it. Case closed. The Indians want him playing everyday there in Columbus to hopefully be ready to take over the major league job in 2010 or sometime later this year. Yeah, he may get a game or two in at a few other positions....but the primary focus is for him to play 2B and only be used at 2B. And, he is not a utility option at all out of spring training. Unless DeRosa/Cabrera/Peralta get injurred, it is written in pen he is going to Columbus.

Also, not sure what trading Carroll serves. We finally find a legitamate solid utility guy and want to trade him? It's not like we have a lot of internal options at the moment who 1.) are as versatile as him 2.) as consistent as him and most importantly 3.) accepts the utility role.
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:15 am

MickS wrote:Barfield is a 2b. He cannot play SS or 3B. Therefore, he is not a versatile utility infielder. Maybe he can play a little LF, but that is not where the need is. What the F is your point?


TRIBE DOESN'T NEED A VERSATILE UTILITY INFIELDER!!! They have DeRosa, Peralta, and Cabrera on the infield, THAT'S THE POINT. Having a versatile UT infielder is a bonus. DeRosa can play all over (more than Carroll even). Yeah he's a starter, but he can still slide over if needed during a game.

Barfield doesn't need to play SS or 3B. Carroll is NEVER gonna play SS. Not because he can't, but because we have so many other guys that can play there, and play there better. If Marte sticks around (if Carroll was traded), we'd have FOUR guys on the ML roster that could play 3B other than Barfield. Don't think we'd be in danger of running out and forcing Barfield to play there :s_empathy
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Re: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:17 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Seeing a new topic with this heading really annoys me. There's nothing here other than a fantasy, please don't post it as if it may be happening. It's not even a rumor. Why not post a topic "Grady in an Automobile Accident?" Then when we all freak and click on it, we find out "gosh, there's nothing to it, but I just wondered what would happen if he WAS in an accident?"

And calling Andy Marte "versatile" clinches it for me... NO MORE HERMIE THREADS!!!


lol, read the first sentence of my post. I said there was nothing behind hit...except PHILLY FANS speculating on it. good grief

hmm, Marte can play 3B and 1B.....likely will play as many positions this year as Carroll.....so guess we should top calling Carroll versalite
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:29 am

Consigliere wrote:Please do not give misleading thread titles. If it is pure speculatation and a pipedream/fantasy coming from you the poster, please indicate so on the thread title. :s_yes

As for the idea....kinda a moot point. Valbuena is playing 2B this year. That's it. Case closed. The Indians want him playing everyday there in Columbus to hopefully be ready to take over the major league job in 2010 or sometime later this year. Yeah, he may get a game or two in at a few other positions....but the primary focus is for him to play 2B and only be used at 2B. And, he is not a utility option at all out of spring training. Unless DeRosa/Cabrera/Peralta get injurred, it is written in pen he is going to Columbus.

Also, not sure what trading Carroll serves. We finally find a legitamate solid utility guy and want to trade him? It's not like we have a lot of internal options at the moment who 1.) are as versatile as him 2.) as consistent as him and most importantly 3.) accepts the utility role.


well 99.9% of threads are speculative on message boards......not sure why anyone would 'freak out' by Carroll getting traded. sorry if i worried anyone


I guarantee Valbuena plays SS some this year. I know he's gonna play 2B most of the time, but the Tribe loves versatility in it's players and that won't change. Valbuena will likely play some 3B as well.


lol, I love the notion that people think you need to have a great utility infielder to be competitive. It's one of the least important spots on the roster actually. Not saying Carroll isn't valuable. I was actually one that liked the trade and picking up his option.

Carroll also is NOT consistent. 2006 he was good....2007 down right awful. He hit .225 with a .317 OBP! Yeah, we couldn't find that anywhere. Last year he was a GREAT utility guy. Filled in nicely in June as a starter and handled both 3B and 2B well defensively......but are we gonna get the 2007 Carroll or 2008 Carroll in 2009? Honestly, it doesn't really matter. 2007 Carroll was part of a World Series team....2008 Carroll was part of a 3rd place team......utility infielders aren't that important and won't make or break any team really.

Carroll is VERY, VERY replaceable. Let's say he hits .300 this year....which is very, very optimistic. He's likely only gonna get about 250 at-bats. Unless there's more injuries, that's actually pretty high (only had 227 in 2007 as a utility guy). That is 75 base hits. If barfield were giving that many at-bats, he'd have around 60 hits (hitting .240ish) and Marte would have around 55 (hitting .220). You're talking 15-20 hits over the course of a year!! good grief.

I do realize Carroll brings more than a bat.....but what? speed is one. But Barfield is as fast or faster.....so don't lose anythign there. Veteran presense? Yeah, we definitely lose that. But Dellucci is still here and Victor being healthy and around the clubhouse all the time will more than make up for the loss. And defensively, Marte is better at 3B...and 2B Barfield isn't 'that' far behind Carroll. And being 35 soon, Carroll will only be getting worse, not better. Marte and Barfield are in their mid-20s.....they may never reach their full potential, but they'll improve.

Bottom line, Carroll is a great guy to have.....but FAR from irreplaceable.....

We're talking about a guy that'll be 35 this year on opening day!
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:49 am

O and fyi, I'm not the only person that's thought Carroll could be traded this winter. Ken Rothenthal saw him as a fit for the D'backs earlier. Only a handful of Tribe 'fans' think this is a bad idea....I find it quite amusing, lol.

Buster Olney also speculated on a Carroll trade this winter. Keeping a guy like him doesn't make as much sense when you break all the numbers down....

Had the Tribe not gotten DeRosa and just gotten a guy who could only play 2B or only play 3B, keeping Carroll would be almost 'needed'....but Carroll is basically DeRosa-lite.
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:53 pm

I think you're sort of missing the point here Hermie.

- My guess is that most people here realize that Carroll is expendable, but the reason why your trade scenario doesn't have many supporters is because the trade doesn't make much sense ... for both teams.

- The way you presented this thread is probably what irritates people the most. When I saw the subject line, I really thought there were some reports about Carroll possibly being traded. I know it's changed now, but I'm sure you can understand why it's misleading, and quite frankly, just very annoying.

Nobody is saying that you can't speculate or share your trade fantasies, but making it sound like a legit rumor should be avoided ... by all of us. That stuff belongs on the mlb.com message boards and not such a well-run and informative site as this one.
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:22 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I think you're sort of missing the point here Hermie.

- My guess is that most people here realize that Carroll is expendable, but the reason why your trade scenario doesn't have many supporters is because the trade doesn't make much sense ... for both teams.

- The way you presented this thread is probably what irritates people the most. When I saw the subject line, I really thought there were some reports about Carroll possibly being traded. I know it's changed now, but I'm sure you can understand why it's misleading, and quite frankly, just very annoying.

Nobody is saying that you can't speculate or share your trade fantasies, but making it sound like a legit rumor should be avoided ... by all of us. That stuff belongs on the mlb.com message boards and not such a well-run and informative site as this one.


Actually the Trade makes perfect sense for the Phillies. Every Philly fan I've talked to agrees. They'd prefer Carroll to all the options on the open market besides Wigginton.....who is iffy to sign a deal for less than $3M.

Maybe I should have re-worded the title....but the thread itself shouldn't have been misleading (if you actually read it).

Carroll was involved in a lot of trade speculation during the season (both the D'backs and Dodgers). And some talk about it during the winter (though not as much). I'm not the first one to bring up his name in trade scenarios, and I won't be the last. Makes no sense not to look at trading him if you're the Tribe UNLESS they don't have a lot of faith in Cabrera at 2B for a whole season. That is the only reason to keep a guy like Carroll around....and maybe that's the case. Cabrera did struggle last year to start the year, and he's still pretty young.



But again, I really didn't make it sound at all legit....the first sentence of my post said there's nothign to this.....other than the title, there should have no confusion....
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby jellis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:43 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I think you're sort of missing the point here Hermie.

- My guess is that most people here realize that Carroll is expendable, but the reason why your trade scenario doesn't have many supporters is because the trade doesn't make much sense ... for both teams.

- The way you presented this thread is probably what irritates people the most. When I saw the subject line, I really thought there were some reports about Carroll possibly being traded. I know it's changed now, but I'm sure you can understand why it's misleading, and quite frankly, just very annoying.

Nobody is saying that you can't speculate or share your trade fantasies, but making it sound like a legit rumor should be avoided ... by all of us. That stuff belongs on the mlb.com message boards and not such a well-run and informative site as this one.


Actually the Trade makes perfect sense for the Phillies. Every Philly fan I've talked to agrees. They'd prefer Carroll to all the options on the open market besides Wigginton.....who is iffy to sign a deal for less than $3M.

Maybe I should have re-worded the title....but the thread itself shouldn't have been misleading (if you actually read it).

Carroll was involved in a lot of trade speculation during the season (both the D'backs and Dodgers). And some talk about it during the winter (though not as much). I'm not the first one to bring up his name in trade scenarios, and I won't be the last. Makes no sense not to look at trading him if you're the Tribe UNLESS they don't have a lot of faith in Cabrera at 2B for a whole season. That is the only reason to keep a guy like Carroll around....and maybe that's the case. Cabrera did struggle last year to start the year, and he's still pretty young.



But again, I really didn't make it sound at all legit....the first sentence of my post said there's nothign to this.....other than the title, there should have no confusion....



it does not make perfect sense, it makes sense to trade for him but it does not make sense to give up a high value piece like donald, this is almost as bad of an over value as when you talked about aubreys trade value way back at the end fo the season. You are really over valuing the Indians prospects carrolls net gain would be a spec in the 15-20 range not even a player as good as stevens
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:24 am

jellis wrote:it does not make perfect sense, it makes sense to trade for him but it does not make sense to give up a high value piece like donald, this is almost as bad of an over value as when you talked about aubreys trade value way back at the end fo the season. You are really over valuing the Indians prospects carrolls net gain would be a spec in the 15-20 range not even a player as good as stevens


LOL :s_rofl


once again, READ THE POST before you respond. I NEVER said trade Carroll for Donald, good grief. How many times do I have to tell you that.


I said trade Carroll and a pitcher for Donald and a low prospect. Phillies are thin as far as ML ready pitchers. They have Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Blanton set 1-4....then Eaton (who they are trying to move) and Happ for the 5th spot. Adding in a guy like Laffey or Lewis would give them some depth in case of an injury (Moyer is gettting way up there in age, Myers is inconsistent). So yes, it does make perfect sense. Every Philly fan I've talked to agrees.

Obviously they don't make the decisions though. But Donald has no spot in the Phillies lineup right now. He doesn't fit well at 3B and SS/2B are locked up for a while now with Rollins and Utley manning those spots. Donald isn't gonna be moving either from their home any time in the near future.

Donald would rank around 8-10 in the Tribe system as far as prospects.......Tribe got Valbuena (ranked 10th in our system now) and Joe Smith for just Gutierrez......getting Donald (and another prospect) who really doesn't project that much better than Valbuena for a guy like Carroll and a decent AAAA starting pitcher, is FAR from outrageous. :s_empathy
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby jellis » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:57 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:it does not make perfect sense, it makes sense to trade for him but it does not make sense to give up a high value piece like donald, this is almost as bad of an over value as when you talked about aubreys trade value way back at the end fo the season. You are really over valuing the Indians prospects carrolls net gain would be a spec in the 15-20 range not even a player as good as stevens


LOL :s_rofl


once again, READ THE POST before you respond. I NEVER said trade Carroll for Donald, good grief. How many times do I have to tell you that.


I said trade Carroll and a pitcher for Donald and a low prospect. Phillies are thin as far as ML ready pitchers. They have Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Blanton set 1-4....then Eaton (who they are trying to move) and Happ for the 5th spot. Adding in a guy like Laffey or Lewis would give them some depth in case of an injury (Moyer is gettting way up there in age, Myers is inconsistent). So yes, it does make perfect sense. Every Philly fan I've talked to agrees.

Obviously they don't make the decisions though. But Donald has no spot in the Phillies lineup right now. He doesn't fit well at 3B and SS/2B are locked up for a while now with Rollins and Utley manning those spots. Donald isn't gonna be moving either from their home any time in the near future.

Donald would rank around 8-10 in the Tribe system as far as prospects.......Tribe got Valbuena (ranked 10th in our system now) and Joe Smith for just Gutierrez......getting Donald (and another prospect) who really doesn't project that much better than Valbuena for a guy like Carroll and a decent AAAA starting pitcher, is FAR from outrageous. :s_empathy


the funny thing was when I brought up a donald trade about 3 months ago and included a pitcher you told me they didnt need any SP and that moyer would get a 3 year deal. Donald is ranked much higher than valbuena is a borderline top 100 spec and would rank about 6 or 7, he has a heck of a bat and profiles as a 2B with above average pop. No team will trade a high level spec for a utility guy and a spec type pitcher who couldnt even make the other teams top 20 specs. Sorry it just wont happen
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Re: Poster Speculation: Carroll to the Phillies??

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:20 am

jellis wrote:the funny thing was when I brought up a donald trade about 3 months ago and included a pitcher you told me they didnt need any SP and that moyer would get a 3 year deal. Donald is ranked much higher than valbuena is a borderline top 100 spec and would rank about 6 or 7, he has a heck of a bat and profiles as a 2B with above average pop. No team will trade a high level spec for a utility guy and a spec type pitcher who couldnt even make the other teams top 20 specs. Sorry it just wont happen


ha, I NEVER said that Moyer would get a 3 year deal. I said he's get a 2 year deal (and I was right, even though everyone said he'd never get it).

Trading just a SP for Donald doesn't make much sense. They don't 'need' a starting pitcher that bad. But they do have a need for a solid infielder since Utley and Felix's health are an issue. Donald not playing above AA before isn't the best option for that job.....though they could decide to go that route....but with their interest in utility infielders....I'd say they are trying to avoid that right now.

One, you're VASTLY overrating Donald. He's not a top 100 prospect. Many scouts feel he'll only turn into a utility guy. Some feel he'll one day be a nice hitting 2B....but they say the same things about Valbuena too. Donald is a better spec.....but not by that much. He had an amazing AFL stint this year.....but so did Hodges. It's only a month of baseball though, keep that in mind.

Second, both Laffey and Lewis have been top 10 prospects in our system. Laffey is no longer a prospect after pitching well in the MLs last year. Aaron Laffey actually pitched better in his stint with the Tribe than Joe Blanton did in his with the Phillies. Laffey also was far better than Kyle Kendrick who struggled mightily last year. Happ pitched well and will likely win the last spot. Carrasco is a stud...but probably not ML ready yet.

Again, I agree this trade won't happen.....but it's not because it doesn't make any sense. Makes perfect sense for both clubs.....unless of course the Tribe has little faith in Cabrera....which if you read the article online with the Shapiro interview, sounds like the case.


Tribe could always toss in Rundles or Jackson as well. The Phillies are in need of a lefty reliever after Romero's incident. They are looking at Ohman....but having a backup option like Rundles or Jackson would be good for their pen. Again, NOT saying this is happening, just that there is a VERY good fit between the Tribe and Phillies.
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