RSS Twitter Facebook YouTube
Expand Menu

Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:36 pm

OK, everybody. What should we do with Kelly Shoppach? At today's presser for Pavano, Shapiro mentioned that we wouldn't be doing anything more, unless we could dump some payroll.

Well, Shoppach will be adding to the payroll. He is arbitration eligible, and I haven't heard anything about contract negotiations. Last year, the Cards C Yadier Molina was arbitration eligible and he wound up signing a multi-year contract for over $14 million. (Kelly also is much more of an offensive force than Molina, at least when he makes contact). The point is, I don't see the Indians committing millions of dollars to him right now. That's a shame. Because I like what he brings to the team.

So is he next on the trade block for prospects? :s_dunno
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:17 am

I think we have to sell high, his K rate is frightening and if they wait I really think his value will drop next year. Teams will have a lot more exposure and the book on shoppach will be flushed out. It will be the Gutierrez situation all over again. Teams will know exactly how to pitch to him and his numbers will take a tumble
jellis
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:42 am

There are worse things then being dealt for prospects. Often times those players being dealt end up in penant contending positions.
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:59 am

I have said it before, and will say it again, he should be traded this offseason as I don't see his value ever being higher. With Hafner and Vic back healthy next year (hopefully), he is relegated to backup status again and getting 150-180 at bats at most.

Now, maybe there is no market for him or the Indians are asking for too much, I don't know.....but with the depth we have at catcher, he should be traded to fill a need.

FYI, as a first year arb player I think he gets at most $2M.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby npc29 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:05 am

I love the guy but the writing is on the wall with the way he swings the bat. He's primed to take a dip even as a backup. Even if he doesn't, I wouldn't have a problem selling high on him.

But... If he turns out to be on the team come April.. I wouldn't be totally disappointed.
npc29
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: Kent, OH

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby TheWord » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:31 am

Could be a key piece come June or July of this season.

With how the market is now, it is more likely that the trade deadline might make it easier to go get a guy who will help our club.
TheWord
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:06 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby petes999 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:31 am

We will go into the season with what we have. If someone wants Dellucci or Kobi, then we will dump their payroll. Yet, Shoppach gives us the most trade value come June/July. Look how many teams were looking for catching help last trade deadline, yet nothing was really available except someone like Pudge.

If NY or Boston needs a catcher, then I would hold out for a front line pitching prospect. Yet, now neither are willing to pay that much now. It will also allow Giminez get more experience behind the plate and possibly 3rd at AAA. It will also allow Toregas to develop his bat some more. Have them platoon with Toregas getting DH work and Giminez getting 1B/3B work to develop his utility skills. Then let one get the call up at the deadline.
petes999
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:13 am

Personally, I almost wonder if it's worth talking to the Red Sox about Shoppach and just saying to them "listen, we don't want anyone off your major league roster".

There's talk the Sox might be looking to bring Varitek back, but Shop is an improvement if you ask me (and anyone else with an ounce of sense).

It seems the Sox have been reluctant to deal their Major League ready arms (Masterson, Bucholz, Bard), but they have a pretty good farm system and I'm almost of the opinion that we'd be better off trading Shoppach for some good minor league talent that, although it won't help in 2009, could well be a lot more than we'd get for Shoppach if he spent the whole 2009 season as a bench player.
dazindiansfanuk
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:19 am

I actually think Tribe fans are vastly overvaluing Shoppach's value at this point......I actually think it can go way up.

Shoppach was TERRIBLE behind the plate this year. He couldn't throw out a runner to save his life it seemed....which was odd as he was typically very solid at this throughout his career. Also, a few pitchers struggled with him as their catcher (Sowers especially).....he still needs to work on his game managment behind the plate.

Also think you 'can' see him cut down on the K's (though they could easily go up too). Power may take a hit....but even a catcher capable of hitting 15 HRs will be highly valued by other teams.

My guess is teams are more afraid of the defense (and the offseason KNEE surgery....no matter how minor it was) than the strikeouts (sadly, strikeouts seem to not bother many people these days).....but I could be wrong.....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby toledobuck » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:25 am

Shoppach has a great deal of value in MLB right now and his value is probably peaked this offseason. It would be great if he could be dealt along with other prospects for a legitimate starter but the market right now for catchers is fairly thin. I am certain Shap is burning up the lines looking for a deal like this right now but has not found any takers. Maybe we will be able to find a partner in spring training or in the season after a team loses its starting catcher due to injury.
toledobuck
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:07 am

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I actually think Tribe fans are vastly overvaluing Shoppach's value at this point......I actually think it can go way up.

Shoppach was TERRIBLE behind the plate this year. He couldn't throw out a runner to save his life it seemed....which was odd as he was typically very solid at this throughout his career. Also, a few pitchers struggled with him as their catcher (Sowers especially).....he still needs to work on his game managment behind the plate.

Also think you 'can' see him cut down on the K's (though they could easily go up too). Power may take a hit....but even a catcher capable of hitting 15 HRs will be highly valued by other teams.

My guess is teams are more afraid of the defense (and the offseason KNEE surgery....no matter how minor it was) than the strikeouts (sadly, strikeouts seem to not bother many people these days).....but I could be wrong.....


Gotta disagree with you on Shoppach's defense. Most everybody struggles at points in a season. But overall I would rate him above average defensively. I also think he was great handling the pitchers. Maybe I do overvalue him, but I honestly think he wold start for a number of ML clubs.
Anyway, if he gets a $2 million raise in arbitration or contract extension, that's a big deal to the Indians. Don't forget we sold Paul Byrd just so we could sign draft picks.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby MickS » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:24 pm

It's Econ 101. Shoppach's value isn't what you or I say it is, it's what the market says it is. There is a shortage of Catching and some big market teams with a need. Demand exceeds available supply. In that environment, Shoppach doesn't have to be Johnny Bench to have tremendous value when the easily available alternatives are "has beens" like Zaun and Pudge.
MickS
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:18 am

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:53 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Gotta disagree with you on Shoppach's defense. Most everybody struggles at points in a season. But overall I would rate him above average defensively. I also think he was great handling the pitchers. Maybe I do overvalue him, but I honestly think he wold start for a number of ML clubs.
Anyway, if he gets a $2 million raise in arbitration or contract extension, that's a big deal to the Indians. Don't forget we sold Paul Byrd just so we could sign draft picks.


Based on last season, it's nearly impossible to disagree that Shoppach was bad behind the plate. He didn't just struggle 'at points in the season', he struggled throwing guys out from start to finish. Before this season he was an above average catcher.....but when in your first season as a starter you struggle defensively.....it brings into question your previous defensive abilities (goes for all players, not just Shoppach).

Never said Shoppach wouldn't start for most other teams. but he's not enough of an upgrade for teams to trade nice pieces for him.

He likely won't get a $2M 'raise'....rather make $2M next year. Was making over $400K this year. Tribe knew he's get at least $1-2M anyways in 2009 before last year even started. They have his money budgeted, so keeping him isn't an issue, at least money wise.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:06 pm

at the end of the day holding on to him will kill his value, he wont get the AB's and with out playign everyday the stats will decline and so will his value. He has to be moved now if you want max value, off season is always the time to make deals because moe teams think they can win. Shoppach is very over rated I think by cleveland fans and at this point he would not get an elite type spec. I would not mind a deal getting a few solid specs and the team also taking back Dellucci.
jellis
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby dnosco » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:06 pm

Again the rumors are Saltimacchia for Buchholz. I don't know if that could come true as people seem to think that Boston gets the fuzzy end of the lollipop on that one, but you have to take chances sometimes if you are going to win. Probably the worst spot in depth we have right now is in quality righthanded starting pitching. I think Buchholz adds that and at the cost of a duplicate, assuming Victor can play full-time at catcher.

I know it wouldn't be a one-for-one but I think we could work out a nice trade here if the Varitek thing falls through for Boston. I'm with the people who say sell high on Shoppach. I don't see him becoming a big league regular but, if Boston does, let's make a deal!

The only problem I see is who do we sign as a backup who has some starting potential upside? I think the Sal Fasanos of the world are a dime a dozen but you wouldn't want him starting more than a handful of games.

Heck, do we move Garko back to catcher? Has he bulked up enough that this is not even possible? With him and Victor just flip-flopping from time to time that might be something to think about if Garko is not a total hack back there.

Just speculating knowing that I want to sell high on Shoppach in a sellers' market.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby jellis » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:26 pm

dnosco wrote:Again the rumors are Saltimacchia for Buchholz. I don't know if that could come true as people seem to think that Boston gets the fuzzy end of the lollipop on that one, but you have to take chances sometimes if you are going to win. Probably the worst spot in depth we have right now is in quality righthanded starting pitching. I think Buchholz adds that and at the cost of a duplicate, assuming Victor can play full-time at catcher.

I know it wouldn't be a one-for-one but I think we could work out a nice trade here if the Varitek thing falls through for Boston. I'm with the people who say sell high on Shoppach. I don't see him becoming a big league regular but, if Boston does, let's make a deal!

The only problem I see is who do we sign as a backup who has some starting potential upside? I think the Sal Fasanos of the world are a dime a dozen but you wouldn't want him starting more than a handful of games.

Heck, do we move Garko back to catcher? Has he bulked up enough that this is not even possible? With him and Victor just flip-flopping from time to time that might be something to think about if Garko is not a total hack back there.

Just speculating knowing that I want to sell high on Shoppach in a sellers' market.


I think the bucholz rumor is fluff, its what texas asks for and I dont see it happening
jellis
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby dnosco » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:18 am

If so, then so be it. However, if it ends up being Salty for Buchholz and we get left holding Shoppach just so we don't rock the boat on the juggernaut that is the 2009 Cleveland Indians...then I take issue with that philosophy. Not that this is what they would be doing but it could be interpreted that way, if it comes to pass.

A who lot of ifs for this late at night but, whatever.
dnosco
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Kelly Shoppach predictions?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:25 am

Everyone is assuming Boston would even want Shoppach though......

He's not that young and is already arbitration eligible, meanign he's only got 3 years left before free agency. Red Sox seem to want a much younger guy to groom.


Personally I've always hoped that we could somehow pry Masterson from them for Shoppach somehow. I like him over Bucholz (but just my preference). Masterson isn't needed in their rotation with the additions of Penny and Smoltz and they added Ramirez already to the pen so they could do without him there even. Not happening, but would make some sense for both clubs.


As far as who the Tribe would use as a backup catcher if they traded Shoppach.....they'd probably promote one of Torregas or Gimenez......but if I could choose, I'd bring back Sal Fasano. Again, he was GREAT with the pitchers, especially Sowers. You do NOT need a ton of offense from the catcher spot, especially the backup. I'll take what he provides the pitching staff over offense any day of the week and twice on tuesdays.

I'd also like to see Garko be given a shot behind the plate in the even Shoppach is traded. Not 30 games or anything but 10-15 wouldn't be bad. Heck, we're considering him for the OF where he'll have to move around a lot more. He's caught his whole life basically, granted maybe never that well, but he wouldn't totally embarass himself back there. If anything he could increase his trade value some with the extra flexibility in the field. I've always thought he was the better catcher than Max Ramirez defensively, and Max has played some catcher at the ML level. It's not 'that' crazy to think Garko could do it too.


Though all this is likely a moot point, as Shoppach is all but assurred to be with the Tribe all of 2009.......

But if you want to look at another team other than Boston that could use Shoppach.....check out the Florida Marlins. They want to add a veteran catcher to pair with Baker. Most of the free agents are out of their price range....but Shoppach is under $2M. Not exactly a 'vet'....but he's been around a while and would pair nicely with Baker. Shoppach would provide the power, while Baker would provide the higher OBP. Florida is pretty deep in pitching and could move a young starter potentially......but again, just another 'Shoppach-trade' idea.....don't see it happening though....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH


Return to Beyond The Minors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron