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Spring Training Notes and Comments

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Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:02 am

Spring training signals the beginning of the end of this long cold off season. While some new faces have been added.. more may yet be coming.. Perhaps even a familiar face or two..

Please use this thread for discussing news, notes thoughts and hopes for the upcoming 2014 season...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:05 am

What does it mean when MLBastian reports that Tito says: After watching only one mound session by Trevor Bauer, the pitcher's delivery is "night and day" from last year.

Is that a good thing?

Should our hopes begin to rise in expectation of getting Bauer Power back on line?..
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:56 pm

Indians sign Aaron Harang to MiL contract. Looks like a depth starter if needed. Well under a .500 pitcher last year with Seattle and Mets.

I hope he isn't needed. But should know his way to the mound if he is.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:31 pm

Baltimore.. looks like that's where Ubaldo is headed.. this makes me sad...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:33 pm

Orioles reportedly have signed Ubaldo for 4 years $48 million. I never thought he'd get 4 years at this late date.
Anyway, the Indians get another draft pick.
I wonder if they will now get more aggressive for Santana or Morales. I hope they do. Historically speaking, they don't do well with draft picks anyway.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:11 pm

Jim's article over the weekend about 'surprises' got me to thinking..... What if Bourn struggles as a lead off hitter? Could Francona look to JRam as a possible fill in by playing DH or getting into the field a little more at 2b/SS (giving ACab and Kipnis so days off from fielding).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:15 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Jim's article over the weekend about 'surprises' got me to thinking..... What if Bourn struggles as a lead off hitter? Could Francona look to JRam as a possible fill in by playing DH or getting into the field a little more at 2b/SS (giving ACab and Kipnis so days off from fielding).


While it's possible..

Regression candidate/poor performance/injury to Michael Bourn?... IDK, perhaps it's his body of work that says, he'll do what is needed and should be back to his old self coming into the 2014 season. That includes making himself into a nuisance on the base paths while playing very good defense in CF. The areas on the squad that may be most likely to see regression could be Yan Gomes and whoever ends up in RF regularly (Raburn, Murphy, Swisher and/or Frenchy). Raburn post some pretty impressive numbers in 2013 (a 901 OPS?).. but was held to just under 250 at bats. There rest of the guys who will play there, don't scream 900 OPS.. Then again, neither did Raburn before the season got going...

I like the idea of J-ram getting some time at lots of spots. Aviles had that role and he sort of wilted at the end of the season. J-Ran will probably announce his presence with authority in extended spring training while he gets his hands back to full speed. He should be a big contributor to the club as a pinch runner, utility guy and jack of all trades. Perhaps the Indians will reduce Aviles role as primary back up to Asdrubal, only there by giving J-Ram the chance to fill in at 2B if needed. It's clear, the Indians intend to limit Carlos Santana's play behind the plate, at 1B, & as a RH hitter on days Lonnie & the team are facing a tough LHSP.

Lonnie Chisenhall played fairly well until the division rivals were included.. At that point, his best showing was against the Twins, barely hitting .250 (but handling them very well, otherwise in previous years). Every other team in the division just completely shut him down. Lonnie is edging toward put up or shut time.. He's 25 now and the tock is clicking..

Should be an interesting spring...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:40 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Jim's article over the weekend about 'surprises' got me to thinking..... What if Bourn struggles as a lead off hitter? Could Francona look to JRam as a possible fill in by playing DH or getting into the field a little more at 2b/SS (giving ACab and Kipnis so days off from fielding).


Still don't know why you wouldn't just move Kipnis to the leadoff spot if Bourn struggles. I get why people like JRam, very solid spec. But he struggled offensively at Akron last year. Yes, he was very young and did show some very positive signs but give the kid time at AAA to finish developing. No more rushing specs...please. Did have a solid walk rate and his BABIP took a nose dive (though at .290 wasn't really low) so do think he rebounds...but again, at AAA. I think people expecting JRam to play a big role in Cleveland this year are being way too optimistic on him. Would love to be wrong and see him win Rookie of the Year but just don't see it. Kipnis is already the best leadoff option on the team anyways.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Edible14 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Jim's article over the weekend about 'surprises' got me to thinking..... What if Bourn struggles as a lead off hitter? Could Francona look to JRam as a possible fill in by playing DH or getting into the field a little more at 2b/SS (giving ACab and Kipnis so days off from fielding).


Still don't know why you wouldn't just move Kipnis to the leadoff spot if Bourn struggles. I get why people like JRam, very solid spec. But he struggled offensively at Akron last year. Yes, he was very young and did show some very positive signs but give the kid time at AAA to finish developing. No more rushing specs...please. Did have a solid walk rate and his BABIP took a nose dive (though at .290 wasn't really low) so do think he rebounds...but again, at AAA. I think people expecting JRam to play a big role in Cleveland this year are being way too optimistic on him. Would love to be wrong and see him win Rookie of the Year but just don't see it. Kipnis is already the best leadoff option on the team anyways.


Disagree on Kipnis being the leadoff hitter. You don't put one of your best power hitters at leadoff, where he'll never get a chance to drive in runs with all the doubles he hits. Brantley has less power and would be a better fit. I do think it's way to early to be so high on JRam, but realistically the best option the Indians have for leadoff is and will continue to be Bourne. No need to overthink it.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:54 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Jim's article over the weekend about 'surprises' got me to thinking..... What if Bourn struggles as a lead off hitter? Could Francona look to JRam as a possible fill in by playing DH or getting into the field a little more at 2b/SS (giving ACab and Kipnis so days off from fielding).


Still don't know why you wouldn't just move Kipnis to the leadoff spot if Bourn struggles. I get why people like JRam, very solid spec. But he struggled offensively at Akron last year. Yes, he was very young and did show some very positive signs but give the kid time at AAA to finish developing. No more rushing specs...please. Did have a solid walk rate and his BABIP took a nose dive (though at .290 wasn't really low) so do think he rebounds...but again, at AAA. I think people expecting JRam to play a big role in Cleveland this year are being way too optimistic on him. Would love to be wrong and see him win Rookie of the Year but just don't see it. Kipnis is already the best leadoff option on the team anyways.


Disagree on Kipnis being the leadoff hitter. You don't put one of your best power hitters at leadoff, where he'll never get a chance to drive in runs with all the doubles he hits. Brantley has less power and would be a better fit. I do think it's way to early to be so high on JRam, but realistically the best option the Indians have for leadoff is and will continue to be Bourne. No need to overthink it.


Kipnis isn't one of our best power hitters (only 6th in ISO last year)...but he is one of our best OBP guys, which is exactly what you want in the leadoff spot. :cool

Also...a guy that hits doubles and will be on 2nd base with no outs leadoff a game is exactly the type of player I want leading off....the fact that Kipnis has good speed too is icing on the cake.


I agree completely with your last sentence though, no need to over think it. Bourn posted a .316 OBP last year...Kipnis posted a .366 OBP. Bourn's career high OBP is .354...posted 5 years ago. Kipnis's career high OBP is .366...posted last year. Bourn's career OBP is .335....Kipnis's is .349...Kipnis's worse OBP in his career is .333....worse in a full season is .335.

without over thinking it's very clear, Kipnis simply makes way more sense to leadoff than Bourn.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:15 pm

Indians have reached a 1 year deal with Masterson, ($9.72 million).
They now know the approximate payroll for the season. They also saved a bit by winning arbitration hearings with Pestano and Tomlin. They also will be awarded a sandwich pick in the draft.

It might be time to bid low on Morales. A switch hitting dh/1b with substantial power would he interesting to me.
IMO, between Bauer, Carrasco, and maybe Anderson, somebody should give you something close to what Ubaldo would give you.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:02 pm

I would much rather have Brantley hit leadoff than Kipnis. Kipnis is one of your primary RBI guys on the team and you absolutely don't take that away. That's just stupid IMO. Brantley knows how to get on base and can hit from anywhere in the lineup. IF you were going to go with a lineup like that... Here's what I would suggest:

Brantley
Cabrera
Kipnis
Santana
Swisher
Murphy
Gomes
Chisenhall
Bourn
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:06 pm

Versus a LHSP or RHSP, Tito will make the obvious platoon changes, however, the starting group.. or the regulars might be:

L Brantley LF
S Swisher 1B
L Kipnis 2B
S Santana DH
L Murphy RF
R Gomes C
S Cabrera SS
L Chisenhall 3B
L Bourn CF
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:31 am

Wow this is a tough line up to pencil.. Tried a couple times. But I think it would not be wise to bat Kipnis lead-off. Top batters bat 2nd or 3rd for a reason. Also think Bourn inherits the lead-off spot for now. If he falters he ends up 8th or 9th in the order. I would without a doubt pencil Brantley in the lead off spot over Kipnis myself if Bourn isn't the guy.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:14 am

A.Zajac wrote:I would much rather have Brantley hit leadoff than Kipnis. Kipnis is one of your primary RBI guys on the team and you absolutely don't take that away. That's just stupid IMO. Brantley knows how to get on base and can hit from anywhere in the lineup. IF you were going to go with a lineup like that... Here's what I would suggest:

Brantley
Cabrera
Kipnis
Santana
Swisher
Murphy
Gomes
Chisenhall
Bourn


What's stupid is putting a worse OBP leadoff...

Choo was an RBI guy when you hit him in the middle of the lineup...but his high OBP makes him one of the top two best leadoff men in baseball (Trout being the other).

You want one of your top two hitters batting leadoff....Kipnis is definitely a top two hitter in the lineup (Santana being the other). :biggrin


Really don't get how people can say Brantley is the guy to leadoff. His career OBP is .330....that's worse than Bourn's career mark and worse than Kipnis's worst season (let alone his career mark). Over the last four seasons his OBP has been .296, .318, .348, and .332. I'll give you in 2012 he seemed like an ok leadoff option...but his walk rates the last four years have been 6.8, 6.9, 8.7, and 6.5. Sure he's still young and could improve, but 2012 looks like the outlier for Brantley. Not really a .300 hitter so needs to walk a lot more to "know how to get on base" enough to be a legit leadoff option.


Also...how can someone say Kipnis isn't a good fit in the leadoff spot due to his RBI ability....yet say Brantley is a good option when really his value on offense last year came solely from his ability to hit with men on base/RISP?!? Brantley's OBP last year with RISP was .411, with men on base it was .361, and with the bases empty it was a mere .310. Career numbers are just about as different...career OBP with RISP is .385, with men on base it's .370, and with the bases empty it's .301....

So in 4 years his OBP with no one on base is barely .300....yet people want him to bat with the bases empty more than anyone else on the team by hitting him leadoff?!?!?! :eek


Also should be noted....Brantley strikes out a lot less than both Bourn and Kipnis in addition to walking less. Not saying having a guy that doesn't strikeout leading off is bad...but a strikeout with no one on base is the exact same as a flyout or a groundout. You have no chance of moving a runner or driving a guy in with a ball in play when the bases are empty. Choo struck out a lot and so did Grady....they were both still great leadoff guys (well Grady was til he got hurt). Brantley's ability to put the ball in play is what IMO makes him so good with men on base. He's the guy I want up with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs as I feel more confident he'll put the ball in play and not strikeout. Striking out isn't that bad....but stirking out with men in scoring position makes you want to rip your hair out and throw the remote at the TV.

Unless Brantley's game drastically changes in 2014...he is absolutely not the guy that should be leading off in Cleveland.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:15 am

criznit2009 wrote:Wow this is a tough line up to pencil.. Tried a couple times. But I think it would not be wise to bat Kipnis lead-off. Top batters bat 2nd or 3rd for a reason. Also think Bourn inherits the lead-off spot for now. If he falters he ends up 8th or 9th in the order. I would without a doubt pencil Brantley in the lead off spot over Kipnis myself if Bourn isn't the guy.


Top batters shouldn't bat 2nd and 3rd though...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:18 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Indians have reached a 1 year deal with Masterson, ($9.72 million).
They now know the approximate payroll for the season. They also saved a bit by winning arbitration hearings with Pestano and Tomlin. They also will be awarded a sandwich pick in the draft.

It might be time to bid low on Morales. A switch hitting dh/1b with substantial power would he interesting to me.
IMO, between Bauer, Carrasco, and maybe Anderson, somebody should give you something close to what Ubaldo would give you.


I have the payroll right around $82-83M at the moment. Could go up depending on what NRI guys make the club (if any do) or if there's another extension in the works...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:51 pm

By the numbers, Kipnis should lead off ( I am an exponent of OBP...best hitters at 1,4, and 2, etc), but I would be ok with him hitting #2, and Santana #4....Bourn is hardly the ideal leadoff guy...Brantley, not ideal either, but maybe comfort and chemistry have some practicality, too.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:29 pm

I am surprised that the Tribe is not in on Capuano....seems like he would be a fine gamble for relatively low loot.

I cannot help but think that the Homer Bailey deal is going to seriously limit the prospects of a Masterson extension...was hoping the Indians could extend him for 4 years at around 16m/per. Who knows what next year's market will hold, but I wonder what Materson could get if he had a similar year as last season? Having the QO will probably limit him a bit...hard for me to see him getting 5/90+, but the temptation of free agency has to be strong.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:37 pm

El Em wrote:I am surprised that the Tribe is not in on Capuano....seems like he would be a fine gamble for relatively low loot.

I cannot help but think that the Homer Bailey deal is going to seriously limit the prospects of a Masterson extension...was hoping the Indians could extend him for 4 years at around 16m/per. Who knows what next year's market will hold, but I wonder what Materson could get if he had a similar year as last season? Having the QO will probably limit him a bit...hard for me to see him getting 5/90+, but the temptation of free agency has to be strong.


I think the Bailey deal limits the chances of an extension before the season with Masterson...but don't think it hurts our chances of retaining him after the season. As you said, the QO should limit him, especially if Lester, Shields, and Scherzer all hit the market with him. Again, the high water mark at this point for pitchers that turned down QOs is Ubaldo's 4yr/$50M...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:54 pm

Masterson and Bailey have quite a few parallels..... quite a few. So, the market is set, you want to keep a strong # 2 that can be a team / staff ace, the price to pay is going to be $ 100MM. If anything, the possibility of Scherzer and Lester and Shields (to a lesser extent) becoming free agents makes Masterson more of a target as more teams will see Masterson as a $100 - $ 110 MM six/seven year guy versus these others who will command an AAV in the stratosphere. Scherzer/Lester could command contracts in the range of 6 years $ 150 - $ 175 MM which would make Masterson a relative "bargain".. Getting an extension done now is really the only chance the Indians have of seeing Justin finish his career while having Chief Wahoo on his sleeve. If Masty goes into the 2014 season with his arb III contract/no extension, then Indian fans everywhere will see a sequel to the CC Sabathia/Cliff Lee/Ubaldo Jiminez contract / career departure from Cleveland.

I hope I'm wrong...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby daingean » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:28 am

El Em wrote:By the numbers, Kipnis should lead off ( I am an exponent of OBP...best hitters at 1,4, and 2, etc), but I would be ok with him hitting #2, and Santana #4....Bourn is hardly the ideal leadoff guy...Brantley, not ideal either, but maybe comfort and chemistry have some practicality, too.


It's my belief the most important hitter in the line up is #3 then #4. Those are the guys that produce the runs (those guys can consistently score runners from first base). Table setters (i.e #1 and #2) closely follow #3 and #4. With that said, I value Kipnis at #3 highly. As for lead off, I prefer to see Brantley then Bourn. It's important to have guys up there that are base stealing threats as you want the #3 and #4 hitters to see more fast balls and pitchers pitching out of the stretch. I think with anyone, expect a drop in production if Kip is moved to lead off just because he'll have less at bats with guys on first base (his splits show he's more effective with guys on as anyone would be).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:23 am

daingean wrote:
El Em wrote:By the numbers, Kipnis should lead off ( I am an exponent of OBP...best hitters at 1,4, and 2, etc), but I would be ok with him hitting #2, and Santana #4....Bourn is hardly the ideal leadoff guy...Brantley, not ideal either, but maybe comfort and chemistry have some practicality, too.


It's my belief the most important hitter in the line up is #3 then #4. Those are the guys that produce the runs (those guys can consistently score runners from first base). Table setters (i.e #1 and #2) closely follow #3 and #4. With that said, I value Kipnis at #3 highly. As for lead off, I prefer to see Brantley then Bourn. It's important to have guys up there that are base stealing threats as you want the #3 and #4 hitters to see more fast balls and pitchers pitching out of the stretch. I think with anyone, expect a drop in production if Kip is moved to lead off just because he'll have less at bats with guys on first base (his splits show he's more effective with guys on as anyone would be).



I am an appreciator of "The Book" (T Tango, et al.)...I have faith in their statistical models, which among many other things, refutes the long held perceptions of the #3 hitter being the best hitter, etc. I am not an absolutist in these statistical models, but i think it is necessary to adopt the overarching principles. Certainly, your mileage may vary...
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:41 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Masterson and Bailey have quite a few parallels..... quite a few. So, the market is set, you want to keep a strong # 2 that can be a team / staff ace, the price to pay is going to be $ 100MM. If anything, the possibility of Scherzer and Lester and Shields (to a lesser extent) becoming free agents makes Masterson more of a target as more teams will see Masterson as a $100 - $ 110 MM six/seven year guy versus these others who will command an AAV in the stratosphere. Scherzer/Lester could command contracts in the range of 6 years $ 150 - $ 175 MM which would make Masterson a relative "bargain".. Getting an extension done now is really the only chance the Indians have of seeing Justin finish his career while having Chief Wahoo on his sleeve. If Masty goes into the 2014 season with his arb III contract/no extension, then Indian fans everywhere will see a sequel to the CC Sabathia/Cliff Lee/Ubaldo Jiminez contract / career departure from Cleveland.

I hope I'm wrong...


Disagree strongly here. At this point the Tribe is probably better off and has a better chance of retaining Masterson by not extending him now, playing out the year, then giving him a QO. The high water mark for a QO declining pitcher is currently Ubaldo's 4 year/$50M deal. Sure if Masterson has an off the charts year maybe the QO won't matter...but if there are three other (and better pitchers) on the market I see zero chance of Masterson getting $100M and really zero chance of him even getting Anibal Sanchez money. Problably looking at closer to 4yr/$60M.

Tribe could have resigned Ubaldo....just seemed like they didn't want to. Maybe you'll be right and we'll see the same thing again (Tribe may not want to pay Masterson even $50M this time next winter).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:56 am

I tend to agree on the "power" of the QO, and also the notion that the Bailey contract puts the Tribe in a place where they cannot hope to extend Masterson at a palatable number to them until he either feels, or understands the suppressing nature of the QO. I love Masty, but cannot see giving him Bailey money unless the Tribe's revenue streams are much stronger than what we perceive right now.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:58 am

daingean wrote:
El Em wrote:By the numbers, Kipnis should lead off ( I am an exponent of OBP...best hitters at 1,4, and 2, etc), but I would be ok with him hitting #2, and Santana #4....Bourn is hardly the ideal leadoff guy...Brantley, not ideal either, but maybe comfort and chemistry have some practicality, too.


It's my belief the most important hitter in the line up is #3 then #4. Those are the guys that produce the runs (those guys can consistently score runners from first base). Table setters (i.e #1 and #2) closely follow #3 and #4. With that said, I value Kipnis at #3 highly. As for lead off, I prefer to see Brantley then Bourn. It's important to have guys up there that are base stealing threats as you want the #3 and #4 hitters to see more fast balls and pitchers pitching out of the stretch. I think with anyone, expect a drop in production if Kip is moved to lead off just because he'll have less at bats with guys on first base (his splits show he's more effective with guys on as anyone would be).


This is a very commonly held belief...but other than "it's always been that way" there really is no good reason to put a top hitter in the 3-hole. If you look at the entire season or even multiple seasons, the #3 hitter will come to bat with 2 outs and the bases empty more times than any spot in the lineup (already data out there that backs this up). Why would you want a top hitter batting with 2 outs and the bases empty?

And why would you not want your best hitter (or at least a top 2 hitter) batting leadoff? Your leadoff hitter will come to bat more than anyone else over the course of a season (if he stays healthy obviously). Again data backs this up...and really it's just common sense. And your #2 hitter will come up to bat more often than onyone other than the leadoff guy. Why would you put lesser hitters in those 2 spots? Why give more at-bats to worse hitters?

As far as your #3 and #4 hitters seeing the pitcher out of the stretch more....I agree...which is why you NEED a high OBP guy batting 1st and 2nd. Could have the fastest/best base stealer in the history of the sport batting in front of your #3/4 hitters...but they won't see a pitcher out of the stretch if that guy can't get on base. Speed/SBs are way less important than OBP when it comes to the top of the order. Can't steal 1st base.


Also...you're right, Kipnis's OBP was worse with the bases empty than with men on base....but barely. His bases empty OBP was .362...his men on base OBP was .371 (his OBP with RISP though was .358). Really Kipnis, at least in terms of getting on base, was equally as good no matter what the situation. Can't say that for Brantley. Kip also had a walk rate of nearly 12% with the bases empty (11.8, higher than with men on base)....guy can still draw a walk no matter the situation.


As far as base stealing...Kipnis is actually a far better base stealer than Brantley, or at least has been at the big league level. Not just in total SBs, but success rate. Kip's success rate is 82.5%....Brantley is only a 70% successful basestealer in his career. In 2013 Kipnis was also much better in that department than Bourn (though I'm hoping Bourn can at least rebound to 2012 levels there).

I think people just look at Brantley, see that he's black, plays the OF, bats lefty, has little power...and automatically see him as a Lofton style player. But fact is, he's really nothing like Lofton and should not bat leadoff or 2nd (unless he drastically improves his walk rate/OBP ability).

Those 90s teams were so successful not because Lofton stole a lot of bases...but because he was getting on base at .400 clips (or near there) for several years. Guys like Choo and Trout are great leadoff guys because they get on base at very high clips...the fact that they have power too is just icing on the cake.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:01 am

El Em wrote:I tend to agree on the "power" of the QO, and also the notion that the Bailey contract puts the Tribe in a place where they cannot hope to extend Masterson at a palatable number to them until he either feels, or understands the suppressing nature of the QO. I love Masty, but cannot see giving him Bailey money unless the Tribe's revenue streams are much stronger than what we perceive right now.


Yeah I orginally thought 5yr/$75M was fair (4yr/$65M after 2014)...but with how the QO has affected non-stars, I'm thinking 5yr/$65M (or now that he's signed for 2014, 4yr/$55M) is what the Tribe should be offering Masterson, max. Bailey has been better than Masterson each of the last two years and keeps improving, whereas Masterson has been up and down too much the last couple years.

IMO, Masterson should want an extension at this point more than the Tribe should.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby daingean » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:04 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
This is a very commonly held belief...but other than "it's always been that way" there really is no good reason to put a top hitter in the 3-hole. If you look at the entire season or even multiple seasons, the #3 hitter will come to bat with 2 outs and the bases empty more times than any spot in the lineup (already data out there that backs this up). Why would you want a top hitter batting with 2 outs and the bases empty?


Lets just say we can agree to disagree. The number 3 guy in the line up has more combined runs+rbi's than anyone in the order. He drives in the table setters and is also a table setter for the clean up guys. I value Kipnis there more than at lead off. There's a lot that happens within the game with this "the game within the game" that makes this true regardless what spreadsheets guys take into consideration. Kipnis is a guy that can score from first on a double and also drive in a guy from first. I just think you leave a lot of runs unscored if you don't have a guy like that in the 3 hole. Note every time he does get on base, we have our cleanup hitter coming up behind him.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:54 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
This is a very commonly held belief...but other than "it's always been that way" there really is no good reason to put a top hitter in the 3-hole. If you look at the entire season or even multiple seasons, the #3 hitter will come to bat with 2 outs and the bases empty more times than any spot in the lineup (already data out there that backs this up). Why would you want a top hitter batting with 2 outs and the bases empty?


Lets just say we can agree to disagree. The number 3 guy in the line up has more combined runs+rbi's than anyone in the order. He drives in the table setters and is also a table setter for the clean up guys. I value Kipnis there more than at lead off. There's a lot that happens within the game with this "the game within the game" that makes this true regardless what spreadsheets guys take into consideration. Kipnis is a guy that can score from first on a double and also drive in a guy from first. I just think you leave a lot of runs unscored if you don't have a guy like that in the 3 hole. Note every time he does get on base, we have our cleanup hitter coming up behind him.


This is only sometimes true though....I'd say a #4 hitter would lead in those categories as much if not more. Plus, Runs/RBIs don't make the best hitter...

It's also not just "spreadsheet guys" that don't like the best hitter in the #3 spot. Carlos Baerga was not even close to the best hitter the Indians had in 1995...Lofton and Belle were, guess where they hit? #1 and #4. We've also seen a lot of managers start bumping guys from the #3 spot to the #2 spot in the lineup as they too are realizing that even the #2 spot is a more valuable spot in the lineup. #2 guy will come up with men on base nearly as much as the #3 guy...but bats more often.

I agree that Kipnis can score from 1st on a double...which is why I'd want him leading off :wink We have plenty of guys that can drive a guy in from 1st (Raburn/Murphy platoon, Gomes, Cabrera..not to mention Swisher, Santana)...don't have a lot of .360+ OBP guys though.

And yes, every time Kipnis gets on base if in the 3-hole we'd have our cleanup hitter coming up...but how many of those times will there be 2 outs? if he's leading off he'll be getting on base with no outs more often with guys like Swisher, Gomes, Santana, Murphy/Raburn, and/or Brantley coming up to drive him in.

I mean hey, if we had another Lofton, Choo, Grady or a Trout on the team I'd be fine not batting Kipnis leadoff...but unfortunately we don't. Though I guess as you said, we'll have to agree to disagree....
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:26 pm

Yeah, the "spreadsheet guys" are pretty mainstream these days...already a significant part of today's game, and for good reason -- their analysis is shown to be quite useful and significant over multiple seasons.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:33 pm

daingean wrote:It's my belief the most important hitter in the line up is #3 then #4. Those are the guys that produce the runs (those guys can consistently score runners from first base). Table setters (i.e #1 and #2) closely follow #3 and #4.


Realize I already responded to this but wanted to point one other thing out...

You said the #3 and #4 hitters "produce" the runs....that's only half true. Producing runs isn't just about driving them in...that's simply half the equation with the other half scoring runs and "setting the table". Table setters you say are the next important after the 3/4 guys. I disagree but even if we say that's true....why would you want to put guys like Bourn and Brantley there when in reality they aren't that great of table setters? Maybe I'm not understanding the term...but to me a table setter is a guy that gets on base at a very high clip. Can't "set the table" if you're sitting in the dugout after failing to reach base. Neither Bourn nor Brantley come close to that definition IMO. Even their best years fall well short of being really good table setters. They just don't walk enough. Kipnis walked at a higher rate than anyone on the team outside of Santana (who I think we agree belongs in the cleanup spot) and Swisher...who is a table setter/#2 hitter (and should be).


Should clarify too that I don't think Kipnis is a bad #3 guy...but you're wasting his skills by hitting him there (better way to put it).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:47 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Should clarify too that I don't think Kipnis is a bad #3 guy...but you're wasting his skills by hitting him there (better way to put it).


That is a better way to put it...Kipnis is good in any spot, but I prefer him 1 or 2....also like Swish at 2...fine with Swisher at 3 sandwiched by kip and Carlos.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:25 pm

El Em wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Should clarify too that I don't think Kipnis is a bad #3 guy...but you're wasting his skills by hitting him there (better way to put it).


That is a better way to put it...Kipnis is good in any spot, but I prefer him 1 or 2....also like Swish at 2...fine with Swisher at 3 sandwiched by kip and Carlos.


Who would leadoff though in that scenario?
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby El Em » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:54 pm

I am going on the premise that Bourn still gets the slot initially...all numbers aside, he probably get the nod based on past perceptions/ comfort.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:02 pm

El Em wrote:I am going on the premise that Bourn still gets the slot initially...all numbers aside, he probably get the nod based on past perceptions/ comfort.


Yeah true, does seem like we're destined to see Bourn leading off.

And I agree...if Bourn is leading off then Kipnis should be batting 2nd, not 3rd. Kipnis had a higher OBP than Swisher and was an all-around better offensive player. Get him more ABs by hitting him higher. Plus for those that like power in the middle, Swisher hit more HRs than Kip and now has at least 20 HRs in all nine of his big league seasons. Had his worse power year ever (lowest ISO of career) and still showed more pop than Kipnis. I want Swisher 2nd, but only if Kipnis is leading off in front of him. If you're gonna force Bourn to leadoff....then Kipnis 2nd makes more sense IMO (even if you'll get 2, and eventually 3 lefties in a row).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
El Em wrote:I am going on the premise that Bourn still gets the slot initially...all numbers aside, he probably get the nod based on past perceptions/ comfort.


Yeah true, does seem like we're destined to see Bourn leading off.

And I agree...if Bourn is leading off then Kipnis should be batting 2nd, not 3rd. Kipnis had a higher OBP than Swisher and was an all-around better offensive player. Get him more ABs by hitting him higher. Plus for those that like power in the middle, Swisher hit more HRs than Kip and now has at least 20 HRs in all nine of his big league seasons. Had his worse power year ever (lowest ISO of career) and still showed more pop than Kipnis. I want Swisher 2nd, but only if Kipnis is leading off in front of him. If you're gonna force Bourn to leadoff....then Kipnis 2nd makes more sense IMO (even if you'll get 2, and eventually 3 lefties in a row).

Tito like the way Swisher handled himself in the 2 hole down the stretch.. If nothing else, he's a creature of habit and will probably make it a point to put Bourn at lead off.. followed by Swish, Kip, $ Carlos. If Bourny has a day off, then Brantley can fill in.. or, if Jose Ramirez is back with the club and filling in.. he might be looked at for that spot. Kipnis was Tito's # 3 hitter.. and he's well suited for the spot..
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:09 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Tito like the way Swisher handled himself in the 2 hole down the stretch.. If nothing else, he's a creature of habit and will probably make it a point to put Bourn at lead off.. followed by Swish, Kip, $ Carlos. If Bourny has a day off, then Brantley can fill in.. or, if Jose Ramirez is back with the club and filling in.. he might be looked at for that spot. Kipnis was Tito's # 3 hitter.. and he's well suited for the spot..


As said before, agree that we'll all but certainly see Bourn, Swish, Kip and then Santana, Brantley...think just about everyone agrees there. Question is should we see that (and IMO the answer is a big time no)...


I do agree Kipnis is well suited for the the #3 spot....so was Choo. Thankfully though, Acta finally came to his senses and moved Choo up to the leadoff spot where his OBP ability was better utilized. Hopefully we see something similar during this season with Kipnis :biggrin
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:07 pm

Let's pose an interesting question for debate here... if Kipnis played for another team, let's say the Red Sox, but it can be any team... where would he hit in the lineup?
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:47 am

MLB Network had Kipnis rated as the #4 2b in baseball right now. So he's a top of the order hitter for most anybody.
That being said, setting the batting order is relative to the other players on the team. Rickey Henderson would bat leadoff for any team. Personally, since Kipnis has an ops over. 800, I would not bat him leadoff. Traditionally, the #2 hitter is used to sacrifice a lot. He is too valuable to give up so many AB's.
Traditionally, your best hitter bats third. Until Cabrera, Cano, or Pedroia are acquired by the Indians, that would be Kipnis.
As far as who bats leadoff, my hope is that Bourn bounces back and has a more respectable season for him. But if that doesn't happen, I'm fine with Brantley.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:22 am

A.Zajac wrote:Let's pose an interesting question for debate here... if Kipnis played for another team, let's say the Red Sox, but it can be any team... where would he hit in the lineup?


Going on the premise that who Kipnis plays for could be any team..

..then where do you put a .270/.350/.420 guy in your batting order when he K's just under twice as many times as he walks, hits with some power ( XBH's ) and can steal a bag.. He's the kind of all around talent that you want to see in your first three spots. As a leadoff hitter, he has the OBP you like.. as a second hole hitter.. he has the bat skills and foot speed to be effective.. and is a pretty well rounded hitter from all aspects of the game or what you'd like to see with your three hole hitter..

That said, my estimate would be: 3 hole.. for 12 to 15 teams.. 2 hole for 10 to 12 teams and leadoff for the rest of teams that need anyone (i.e. they're desperate) that can get on base.. like the Tigers..

good question..
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:06 am

I think Ghost of Ted Cox nailed it Hermie.... No one is denying that Kipnis wouldn't be a fantastic lead-off hitter. BUT. (maybe you will get this-but i doubt it) Given the current construct of the Indians everyday-ish line-up, his COMPLETE skill set is best utilized in the 2-3 hole......FOR NOW. If Bourn can't produce in the lead off role and yes I am willing to give him a -.20 or so less in OBP than Kipnis... But if Bourn struggles like he did last year, then yes Kip might be your best bet. However, given the current make up of the ENTIRE team, penciling him as your lead off hitter right now is foolish/dumb.... If it were as simple as OBP Santana would be your man and oh yeah there are plenty of reasons why guys like Miguel Cabrera bat lower in the order.... Its because despite their own individual skills - their OVERALL skills make the team better...

If Kipnis was the obvious "shoe-in" for the lead off spot it would mean offensively our team is a whole lot better than it seems/is... If Bourn can't produce at a reasonable clip, then sure Kipnis (BRANTLEY first) makes sense, but by doing that you create another hole(if not more than that) in the ENTIRE line-up.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:58 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Let's pose an interesting question for debate here... if Kipnis played for another team, let's say the Red Sox, but it can be any team... where would he hit in the lineup?


Going on the premise that who Kipnis plays for could be any team..

..then where do you put a .270/.350/.420 guy in your batting order when he K's just under twice as many times as he walks, hits with some power ( XBH's ) and can steal a bag.. He's the kind of all around talent that you want to see in your first three spots. As a leadoff hitter, he has the OBP you like.. as a second hole hitter.. he has the bat skills and foot speed to be effective.. and is a pretty well rounded hitter from all aspects of the game or what you'd like to see with your three hole hitter..

That said, my estimate would be: 3 hole.. for 12 to 15 teams.. 2 hole for 10 to 12 teams and leadoff for the rest of teams that need anyone (i.e. they're desperate) that can get on base.. like the Tigers..

good question..



Yeah it a very good question.. I keep trying to think of a team where batting him lead-off makes sense but keep dropping him into the 2/3 hole. I think a lot of it depends on how much value you place in his ability to hit for power/drive in runs. Or if you value his speed/OBP more. I think G'son pretty much nailed it. Maybe he would be a fit for the lead off spot in Tampa Bay or Cincinnati?
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:03 am

A.Zajac wrote:Let's pose an interesting question for debate here... if Kipnis played for another team, let's say the Red Sox, but it can be any team... where would he hit in the lineup?


With Boston he'd almost certainly hit leadoff, maybe 2nd if they really wanted to stick with Victorino there.

Would obviously be a team by team basis though on where he'd hit. Definitely has top of the order ability though. Good OBP, high walk rate, pop in the bat.


Teams he'd hit leadoff for (may be more but these are the ones I can think of): Boston, TB, Baltimore, Chicago (both), Atlanta, Colorado, Miami, NY Mets, Minnesota, Philly, Oakland, Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Washington. Course I say Cleveland too (though Bourn is going to leadoff). Few other teams he could too (KC, Detroit).
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:20 am

Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Let's pose an interesting question for debate here... if Kipnis played for another team, let's say the Red Sox, but it can be any team... where would he hit in the lineup?


With Boston he'd almost certainly hit leadoff, maybe 2nd if they really wanted to stick with Victorino there.

Would obviously be a team by team basis though on where he'd hit. Definitely has top of the order ability though. Good OBP, high walk rate, pop in the bat.


Teams he'd hit leadoff for (may be more but these are the ones I can think of): Boston, TB, Baltimore, Chicago (both), Atlanta, Colorado, Miami, NY Mets, Minnesota, Philly, Oakland, Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Washington. Course I say Cleveland too (though Bourn is going to leadoff). Few other teams he could too (KC, Detroit).


Thinking Milwaukee might be another place he would fit good at the top of the order.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:57 am

After 2012 I was dead set against Brantley leading off. He hit .227 with an OBP of .292 hitting leadoff while hitting .308/.366 in the 5 hole. But last season he raised his leadoff BA a full 100 points. Here are Brantley's 2013 numbers at the three positions where he had more than 50 at-bats:

1) .327/.383/.418/.801 (110 AB's)
5) .259/.311/.399/.710 (228 AB's)
7) .240/.288/.310/.598 (100 AB's)

Last year might be an outlier, or it could be that he figured out something, namely, that just because he's hitting leadoff doesn't mean he should keep his bat on his shoulder until he has two strikes on him, which is what he was doing in 2012.

It was only 110 at-bats, but based on last year's numbers I'd give Michael another shot at hitting leadoff. Hopefully Bourn does a great job and it never comes down to replacing him, but if it does, then I'd like to see Brantley and Kipnis hitting in the first two spots and I don't really care which order.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:24 am

Prosecutor wrote:After 2012 I was dead set against Brantley leading off. He hit .227 with an OBP of .292 hitting leadoff while hitting .308/.366 in the 5 hole. But last season he raised his leadoff BA a full 100 points. Here are Brantley's 2013 numbers at the three positions where he had more than 50 at-bats:

1) .327/.383/.418/.801 (110 AB's)
5) .259/.311/.399/.710 (228 AB's)
7) .240/.288/.310/.598 (100 AB's)

Last year might be an outlier, or it could be that he figured out something, namely, that just because he's hitting leadoff doesn't mean he should keep his bat on his shoulder until he has two strikes on him, which is what he was doing in 2012.

It was only 110 at-bats, but based on last year's numbers I'd give Michael another shot at hitting leadoff. Hopefully Bourn does a great job and it never comes down to replacing him, but if it does, then I'd like to see Brantley and Kipnis hitting in the first two spots and I don't really care which order.


My issue with Brantley leading off is his walk rate....did manage to bump it up to 8% in 2012 but was back down around 6% in 2013 (what it was pre-2012). You want your leadoff guy to walk a lot more than that. Kipnis nearly doubled Brantley's walk rate in 2013. More pitches a leadoff guy sees the better for the hitter behind him. Plus more walks means more times on base, which is obviously the main point of a leadoff guy. Brantley will have to get back to 2012 numbers to even remotely be an option from the leadoff spot.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:27 am

Here's where the Indians must improve offensively in 2014. These are 2013 numbers for each player.

Nick Swisher: Hit .164 with RISP. I think he was putting too much pressure on himself trying to make a good first impression after signing a big contract. Hopefully he'll relax this year and that number will make a big jump. That .164 number from a guy with 500 AB's in the 2 and 4 holes really hurt.

Asdrubal Cabrera: Hit .209 at home, .197 with RISP, .169 with RISP and two out, and .133 with the bases loaded. Just a horrible offensive season from another top of the lineup guy. The more important the at-bat, the worse he hit, culminating in the double play with two on and nobody out in the Wild Card game. That at-bat was his season in a nutshell.

I don't know what happened with him last year but it seems he was putting a lot of pressure on himself, especially at home.

Michael Bourn: .314 OBP and only 23-for-35 on steal attempts for a guy that routinely stole 40-50 bases. Could be the change in teams and leagues that threw him off, much like the horrible season Adam Dunn had his first year with the White Sox.

Lonnie Chisenhall: Hit .111 against left-handed pitching. Brutal. He probably could have hit .111 batting right-handed.

Carlos Santana: Hit .212 with nobody on and .335 with runners on base. He needs to be more patient when hitting with nobody on. Nothing wrong with taking a walk with nobody on.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:48 am

Hermie13 wrote:
My issue with Brantley leading off is his walk rate....did manage to bump it up to 8% in 2012 but was back down around 6% in 2013 (what it was pre-2012). You want your leadoff guy to walk a lot more than that. Kipnis nearly doubled Brantley's walk rate in 2013. More pitches a leadoff guy sees the better for the hitter behind him. Plus more walks means more times on base, which is obviously the main point of a leadoff guy. Brantley will have to get back to 2012 numbers to even remotely be an option from the leadoff spot.


If Brantley's OBP from the leadoff spot is .387, which it was in 2013, I couldn't care less what his walk percentage was. In fact, I'd like it to be as low as possible.

I'd always prefer a hit to a walk. Some hits are for extra bases, walks never are. Hits drive in runners, walks never do unless the bags are loaded, and in that case a hit is better because you might get two or three runs out of it. Hits force the fielders to handle the ball, which sometimes results in an error and an extra base; walks never do.

So given a choice between a guy who hits .280, walks a ton, and has an OBP of .350, or a guy who hits .320, rarely walks, and has an OBP of .350, I'd take the latter every time.

If a higher walk percentage means a higher OBP, then I'm all for it, but the main thing is to have a high OBP, and the more hits the better.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:18 am

Prosecutor wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
My issue with Brantley leading off is his walk rate....did manage to bump it up to 8% in 2012 but was back down around 6% in 2013 (what it was pre-2012). You want your leadoff guy to walk a lot more than that. Kipnis nearly doubled Brantley's walk rate in 2013. More pitches a leadoff guy sees the better for the hitter behind him. Plus more walks means more times on base, which is obviously the main point of a leadoff guy. Brantley will have to get back to 2012 numbers to even remotely be an option from the leadoff spot.


If Brantley's OBP from the leadoff spot is .387, which it was in 2013, I couldn't care less what his walk percentage was. In fact, I'd like it to be as low as possible.

I'd always prefer a hit to a walk. Some hits are for extra bases, walks never are. Hits drive in runners, walks never do unless the bags are loaded, and in that case a hit is better because you might get two or three runs out of it. Hits force the fielders to handle the ball, which sometimes results in an error and an extra base; walks never do.

So given a choice between a guy who hits .280, walks a ton, and has an OBP of .350, or a guy who hits .320, rarely walks, and has an OBP of .350, I'd take the latter every time.

If a higher walk percentage means a higher OBP, then I'm all for it, but the main thing is to have a high OBP, and the more hits the better.


Problem is OBP is tied to walks. in 2012 Brantley's OBP was .348...hit .288 with an 8.7% walk rate (career high). In 2013 his OBP dropped to .332 despite his BA dropping only 4 pts to .284. His walk rate, however, dropped to a career low 6.5%. He's pretty much been a 6.5-6.9% walk guy in his career other than the 2012 outlier...which was the only year he had an OBP even remotely close to leadoff worthy (and even a .348 OBP isn't that good for a leadoff guy).

You keep referencing his OBP out of the leadoff spot in 2013...but that was in only 110 PAs. Hardly a good enough sample to make a good determination. Plus while you can reference his leadoff numbers, you can easily look at his OBP with men on base vs the bases empty in 2013. Leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than anyone in the lineup. He's the only guy guaranteed to at least do it once. His OBP with the bases empty in 2013 was only .310...hit .264 but only a 5.6% walk rate (and this was in 339 PAs). His OBP with men on base in 2013 was .361..hit .311 with a 7.7% walk rate (in 272 PAs). Still not big samples but double-to-triple what you were listing.


Plus...your argument actually shows why Brantley should not hit leadoff.

As you said, a hit has a better chance of driving in a run than a walk. So why would you want Brantley, a guy that doesn't walk but can get on base via the hit, batting leadoff and not lower in the order where he's more likely to get a hit and thus drive in a run? Put the guy that walks a lot in front of Brantley.


Your last sentence doesn't really make sense. Yes, OBP is the key for leadoff...but the more hits the better doesn't really make a difference. For OBP, a walk and hit equal the exact same. I mean yeah a hit is never bad but for a leadoff guy, neither is a walk. Get on base by any means necessary.
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Re: Spring Training Notes and Comments

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:06 pm

Shut up Hermie!!! I get it.. I think we all do. Everyone is wrong and you are right.. Even if someone is stating their own opinion, you try to correct them like your opinion is some how more important/better/correct just because it came from your mouth/butthole. Feel free to correct that if you'd like, as in this case I am sure my opinion is technically wrong.

if you want to nitpick- over a .015 difference in OBP (uh oh - here comes another stat-attack) or whether it is more important to get on base via a walk or a hit blah blah blah. Quit being so annoying and quoting people just to disagree with them. Just keep posting your own post and quit being "that guy". Your point has been made - but keep on flapping.

You will always skew stats/statements to fit your argument - it is what you do...I (we) GET IT..... OK??!!!!
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
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