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Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:43 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Good point about Brantley's increase in OPS, TheWord. That's not all that has increased. His offensive production is really trending up the last three years.

OPS has increased 127 points from 2010-2012, from .623 to .750.
Doubles increased from 9 to 37 from 2010 to 2012, in about twice as many at-bats. So his rate of hitting doubles has, well, doubled.
His slugging percentage is up 75 points in the last two years.
His batting average the last three years; .246, .266, .288.
His offense has steadily improved over the last three years to where he's a legitimate corner outfielder now. The only thing that hasn't increased is the home runs, but I'll take .288/.750 from a good defensive left fielder anytime, especially considering he's still working cheap.

The question is whether he's topped out or whether that upward curve will continue for another year. No way he adds another 20 points to his BA, but I'd like to see him edge up into the .290's with a few more extra base hits to get his OPS to that .800 level.

At the same time his stolen base percentage is declining. His first two years in Cleveland he was 14-for-16. The last two years he is 25-for-39. Francona said if you're not successful 80% of the time you shouldn't be running. In that case, Brantley will be about 6-for-10 this year. It will be interesting to see if Francona has him running at all.

It seems like he is getting stronger and hitting for more power but at the cost of speed. He's listed at 6'2", 200 pounds. He's not a slap hitter anymore. He's grown into a pretty big boy.

I say bat him 5th or 6th. If it ain't broke...


For me the biggest thing has been his improved OBP, raised it over 50 pts from 2010 to 2011. Walk rate rose nearly 2% in that time as well (k-rate dropped too). His ISO did drop in 2012 from 2011 but just barely. Still see room for some added pop. Great athlete and good frame as mentioned.

I disagree a bit when you say there's "no way" he raises his batting average another 20 pts. A .308 AVG is not out of his reach IMO (though not a stat I'd worry about). He hit over .300 at several stretches last year. If he can continue to grow as a hitter a .310+ average and .360+ OBP is realistic in his future IMO. If he keeps that walk rate up (or even better, raises it) he is a top of the lineup guy. Throw in his reduced k-rate and he is a guy it'd want in that 2 or 3 hole doing hit and runs and hitting that open hole on the right side when a guy is on first.

Do think him hitting 5th to start the year is a fair spot though. Going to be interesting to see how he hits with a legit bat like Santana behind him. Was intentionally walked 12 times last year, good for 6th in the AL. He's should see more good pitches, which is another reason I think he can hit over .300 this year.


I think its entirely posible Brantley could hit 300+ this year. I expect him to hit somewhere between 275ish-300+ish and feel anything under 280ish would be disappointing, but it's not a crucial stat. In the past I haven't been the biggest Brantley supporter, but he has proven me wrong in a lot of ways. As far as "pop" is concerned, if he hits more than 10 HR's this year it most likely means he is having a monster season, but I really am not concerned with the HR's. He hits plenty of doubles, maybe steal some bases and there is no obvious red flags to think that his trend of getting better won't continue. Think his walk rate increases no matter what along with his OBP, plays good D in LF and has a lot more hitters in the line-up to help him along the way. Keep him 5-6th for now and move him up later if needed, seems pretty simple.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:48 am

One of the statistical anomalies that seems to illustrate how far advanced the hitters are versus the pitchers (in the quest to prepare for the coming season) is the contact rate by the hitters as opposed to the number of strike outs. The Indians acquired a pair of strike out kings over the off season to go with their already impressive group of free swingers and could be looking at epic numbers of K's for the 2013 season. The forecast for the Indians plus 6000 ABs has been estimated at over 1600 K's or more than 1K for every four ABs. In the early going of spring training (first half dozen games), the K-Rate has settled in at an anemic 1K for every seven AB's. Now, as the pitches begin to stretch out and regain their form with all their pitches, this number should RISE considerably.. If it doesn't, then something is going on that is untoward.. <nods head & smirks knowingly>
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby daingean » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:05 am

GeronimoSon wrote:One of the statistical anomalies that seems to illustrate how far advanced the hitters are versus the pitchers (in the quest to prepare for the coming season) is the contact rate by the hitters as opposed to the number of strike outs. The Indians acquired a pair of strike out kings over the off season to go with their already impressive group of free swingers and could be looking at epic numbers of K's for the 2013 season. The forecast for the Indians plus 6000 ABs has been estimated at over 1600 K's or more than 1K for every four ABs. In the early going of spring training (first half dozen games), the K-Rate has settled in at an anemic 1K for every seven AB's. Now, as the pitches begin to stretch out and regain their form with all their pitches, this number should RISE considerably.. If it doesn't, then something is going on that is untoward.. <nods head & smirks knowingly>


Also early spring guys are facing ML pitchers maybe 3 of 5 at bats and guys destined for the unemployment line or AA in 2 or more of those at bats. Which is another reason why mid/late game subs put up nice numbers the first week. With the WBL taking some of the better pitchers away for 2 weeks, expect more of the same. ST stats are meaningless until the last 2 weeks, that's when roster spots are won.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby BrianM » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:22 am

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Good point about Brantley's increase in OPS, TheWord. That's not all that has increased. His offensive production is really trending up the last three years.

OPS has increased 127 points from 2010-2012, from .623 to .750.
Doubles increased from 9 to 37 from 2010 to 2012, in about twice as many at-bats. So his rate of hitting doubles has, well, doubled.
His slugging percentage is up 75 points in the last two years.
His batting average the last three years; .246, .266, .288.
His offense has steadily improved over the last three years to where he's a legitimate corner outfielder now. The only thing that hasn't increased is the home runs, but I'll take .288/.750 from a good defensive left fielder anytime, especially considering he's still working cheap.

The question is whether he's topped out or whether that upward curve will continue for another year. No way he adds another 20 points to his BA, but I'd like to see him edge up into the .290's with a few more extra base hits to get his OPS to that .800 level.

At the same time his stolen base percentage is declining. His first two years in Cleveland he was 14-for-16. The last two years he is 25-for-39. Francona said if you're not successful 80% of the time you shouldn't be running. In that case, Brantley will be about 6-for-10 this year. It will be interesting to see if Francona has him running at all.

It seems like he is getting stronger and hitting for more power but at the cost of speed. He's listed at 6'2", 200 pounds. He's not a slap hitter anymore. He's grown into a pretty big boy.

I say bat him 5th or 6th. If it ain't broke...


For me the biggest thing has been his improved OBP, raised it over 50 pts from 2010 to 2011. Walk rate rose nearly 2% in that time as well (k-rate dropped too). His ISO did drop in 2012 from 2011 but just barely. Still see room for some added pop. Great athlete and good frame as mentioned.

I disagree a bit when you say there's "no way" he raises his batting average another 20 pts. A .308 AVG is not out of his reach IMO (though not a stat I'd worry about). He hit over .300 at several stretches last year. If he can continue to grow as a hitter a .310+ average and .360+ OBP is realistic in his future IMO. If he keeps that walk rate up (or even better, raises it) he is a top of the lineup guy. Throw in his reduced k-rate and he is a guy it'd want in that 2 or 3 hole doing hit and runs and hitting that open hole on the right side when a guy is on first.

Do think him hitting 5th to start the year is a fair spot though. Going to be interesting to see how he hits with a legit bat like Santana behind him. Was intentionally walked 12 times last year, good for 6th in the AL. He's should see more good pitches, which is another reason I think he can hit over .300 this year.


I think its entirely posible Brantley could hit 300+ this year. I expect him to hit somewhere between 275ish-300+ish and feel anything under 280ish would be disappointing, but it's not a crucial stat. In the past I haven't been the biggest Brantley supporter, but he has proven me wrong in a lot of ways. As far as "pop" is concerned, if he hits more than 10 HR's this year it most likely means he is having a monster season, but I really am not concerned with the HR's. He hits plenty of doubles, maybe steal some bases and there is no obvious red flags to think that his trend of getting better won't continue. Think his walk rate increases no matter what along with his OBP, plays good D in LF and has a lot more hitters in the line-up to help him along the way. Keep him 5-6th for now and move him up later if needed, seems pretty simple.


I agree. Good work.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:25 pm

Interesting article posted at Fangraphs regarding Justin Masterson and his plight in 2012.. The basis of the article essentially says, get a better catcher and Masterson's results improve w/r to the calling of balls and strikes. The article further illustrates a means to quantify just how badly Materson was SCREWED by Blue in the 2012 season.. an eye opener, to say the least..

Here is the link to the article.. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... terson-be/

In the comments section.. there was one statement that interested:

..the catcher(s) influence is a potential source of altering the results, so too is the influence of the pitch type. For a complete, less biased comparison, compare both Justin Masterson, a noted sink ball pitcher throwing to both Lou Marson and Carlos Santana, primarily & Fausto Carmona (aka Roberto Hernandez), a noted sinkerball pitcher throwing to both Lou Marson and Carlos Santana. Comparing the Fausto-2007 season and the Masterson-2011 seasons...


I wonder what that would show?
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:29 am

The basis of the article essentially says, get a better catcher and Masterson's results improve w/r to the calling of balls and strikes.


I read the column and am not convinced Masterson is getting screwed because of Marson and Santana not properly "framing" the pitches. If that were the case, the entire Indians staff would show the same effect.

I'm not sure I understand the methodology that leads the author to conclude that Masterson had more strikes that were called balls and less balls that were called strikes than any other pitcher. Masterson is only getting screwed if pitches in the strike zone are being called balls, and I agree that may be happening. His pitches have late movement, and maybe when they tail off dramatically the umpires assume they went out of the strike zone even when they caught the corner.

I also don't know if umpires actually look to see where the catcher's mitt is before they make the call on a close pitch. Is "framing" a skill that works or just a myth? I'd like to see somebody ask an umpire if good versus bad framing actually can influence a call, and if so, how often it actually happens.

It's up to Masterson to adjust to what they're calling. If he's not getting the calls on close pitches, he needs to challenge the hitters a little more.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby daingean » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:26 am

Prosecutor wrote:
The basis of the article essentially says, get a better catcher and Masterson's results improve w/r to the calling of balls and strikes.


I read the column and am not convinced Masterson is getting screwed because of Marson and Santana not properly "framing" the pitches. If that were the case, the entire Indians staff would show the same effect.

I'm not sure I understand the methodology that leads the author to conclude that Masterson had more strikes that were called balls and less balls that were called strikes than any other pitcher. Masterson is only getting screwed if pitches in the strike zone are being called balls, and I agree that may be happening. His pitches have late movement, and maybe when they tail off dramatically the umpires assume they went out of the strike zone even when they caught the corner.

I also don't know if umpires actually look to see where the catcher's mitt is before they make the call on a close pitch. Is "framing" a skill that works or just a myth? I'd like to see somebody ask an umpire if good versus bad framing actually can influence a call, and if so, how often it actually happens.

It's up to Masterson to adjust to what they're calling. If he's not getting the calls on close pitches, he needs to challenge the hitters a little more.


I don't think catchers can steal strikes for pitchers but they definitely can lose them strikes. Santana did lead the AL in PB's last year but 9 isn't that bad of a number (when you look at the NL the leader was over 20 and most years the PB leader is much higher than 9). The importance of getting your pitches for strikes in the majors is huge. I want Masterson to challenge hitters with "his pitches" not the umps pitches. Now I think Masterson's issues last year was the pre-season surgery on his lead shoulder which affected him.

My concerns with Santana are that he at times takes his offensive frustrations behind the plate and that ends up losing games. Also I'm a believer that the catching position is a "defensive first" position and in putting an offensive player and hoping he does a decent job behind the plate is not my preferred way to build a winner. One of my frustrations is that catchers are generally rated defensively by how they control the running game instead of game calling/pitch framing/pitcher handling (which is how I rate catchers).

Saying that Santana is the catcher this year. I hope he improves defensively. If he does, expect the pitching staff to improve also (by a lot).
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:37 am

daingean wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
The basis of the article essentially says, get a better catcher and Masterson's results improve w/r to the calling of balls and strikes.


I read the column and am not convinced Masterson is getting screwed because of Marson and Santana not properly "framing" the pitches. If that were the case, the entire Indians staff would show the same effect.

I'm not sure I understand the methodology that leads the author to conclude that Masterson had more strikes that were called balls and less balls that were called strikes than any other pitcher. Masterson is only getting screwed if pitches in the strike zone are being called balls, and I agree that may be happening. His pitches have late movement, and maybe when they tail off dramatically the umpires assume they went out of the strike zone even when they caught the corner.

I also don't know if umpires actually look to see where the catcher's mitt is before they make the call on a close pitch. Is "framing" a skill that works or just a myth? I'd like to see somebody ask an umpire if good versus bad framing actually can influence a call, and if so, how often it actually happens.

It's up to Masterson to adjust to what they're calling. If he's not getting the calls on close pitches, he needs to challenge the hitters a little more.


I don't think catchers can steal strikes for pitchers but they definitely can lose them strikes. Santana did lead the AL in PB's last year but 9 isn't that bad of a number (when you look at the NL the leader was over 20 and most years the PB leader is much higher than 9). The importance of getting your pitches for strikes in the majors is huge. I want Masterson to challenge hitters with "his pitches" not the umps pitches. Now I think Masterson's issues last year was the pre-season surgery on his lead shoulder which affected him.

My concerns with Santana are that he at times takes his offensive frustrations behind the plate and that ends up losing games. Also I'm a believer that the catching position is a "defensive first" position and in putting an offensive player and hoping he does a decent job behind the plate is not my preferred way to build a winner. One of my frustrations is that catchers are generally rated defensively by how they control the running game instead of game calling/pitch framing/pitcher handling (which is how I rate catchers).

Saying that Santana is the catcher this year. I hope he improves defensively. If he does, expect the pitching staff to improve also (by a lot).


The point I was looking to be clarified was the reliance on cause effect showing it was the catcher that made "some" difference.. The amount of difference goes to Pros's comment about methodology / measuring. It just seemed that with the limited data, the presentation of cause/effect was not necessarily the catcher alone as a noted receiver such as Jason Varitek's valuation as a cause wasn't all that different from Lou Marson or Carlos Santana.. In short, the conclusions from the story were inadequate or incomplete..

As far as Santana taking his offensive frustrations onto the field, as a young vet, he hasn't shown the kind of maturity you'd expect from a grizzled veteran who's seen it all....twice. Perhaps with the influence of both Sandy & Tito, those interludes where his frustration is on display.. will disappear.. sort of like the Indians offense the last three ST games...
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:32 pm

Something going on with CP... They're saying it's not a trade. Could be something injury related or WBC related. Announcement coming in about an hour.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:38 pm

Jordan Bastian ‏@MLBastian
As he pulled out of parking lot, Chris Perez rolled down car window and said: "I'm not saying nothing." The mystery continues... Stay tuned.


This doesn't sound good...
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby SwisherBuck11 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:41 pm

Could it be they pulled him from the WBC the last second? i dont know if they have a deadline on it but thats something that could piss someone off
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby SwisherBuck11 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:43 pm

•The Giants and Phillies were both interested in Indians closer Chris Perez this offseason, Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports. The Dodgers were also linked to Perez this winter, as the Tribe was shopping Perez due to his large salary and his criticism of both the team's management and Cleveland's fanbase last season.

interesting MLBtraderumors posted this late last night, notice past tense references
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:45 pm

Jordan Bastian ‏@MLBastian
Chris Perez has "subscapularis strain" in R. shoulder, according to the Indians. Will not throw for 7-10 days. Return to games in 3-4 weeks.

Out of WBC now.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:35 pm

Frank Herrmann is down too with an elbow strain.

I'm a bit concerned with the Perez injury, particularly when you mention shoulder or rotator cuff with a pitcher. There's always room for some concern. I hope the Indians play this extra cautious, and I expect they will.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:14 am

Perez says it's not as bad as the oblique injury he suffered last year in ST.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:10 am

Prosecutor wrote:Perez says it's not as bad as the oblique injury he suffered last year in ST.

Injuries to shoulders, elbows etc. always raise that red flag of concern. I get he's played it down but it does make the team / doctors, etc. look at what's going on structurally.

It's not at all uncommon for guys to have sprains and strains, often time they'll try to play right through. That's when players / pitchers particularly run the risk of further worse injury.

I think the kicker is Chris Perez was really juiced about pitching in the WBC and is totally ticked and disappointed. The best scenario is the Tribe plays this cautious and he returns fully and potentially gets to pitch in the WBC at a later point in his career.

Maybe this is the wrong time to think this but how will it effect him in the future? Will he return as normal, be less effective, lead to further injury or even would it potentially effect his trade value?

I think too much... :rolleyes
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:31 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Perez says it's not as bad as the oblique injury he suffered last year in ST.

Injuries to shoulders, elbows etc. always raise that red flag of concern. I get he's played it down but it does make the team / doctors, etc. look at what's going on structurally.

It's not at all uncommon for guys to have sprains and strains, often time they'll try to play right through. That's when players / pitchers particularly run the risk of further worse injury.

I think the kicker is Chris Perez was really juiced about pitching in the WBC and is totally ticked and disappointed. The best scenario is the Tribe plays this cautious and he returns fully and potentially gets to pitch in the WBC at a later point in his career.

Maybe this is the wrong time to think this but how will it effect him in the future? Will he return as normal, be less effective, lead to further injury or even would it potentially effect his trade value?

I think too much... :rolleyes


Thats where "depth" comes into play. Not just a collection of arms, but quality depth. Obviously Pestano gets the nod until Perez is deemed ready to go. Creates another chance for Matt Capps or Rich Hill to make the club. Not sure if Bryan Shaw and Cody Allen are slated for Cleveland or Columbus but they could figure in obviously. Figure Matt Albers and Joe Smith handle some setup duty til someone else steps up. Or could be nothing and Perez is ready on opening day (I doubt it myself, just a hunch).

If he comes back and pitches without problems I doubt it hurts any value he has. He hasn't missed very much time during the regular season through his career if I'm not mistaken, at least not extended periods.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:16 am

It sounds like Mike McDade is making a good impression. I doubt he makes the big club, but he could be an option later in the yr.

He's a guy I think can be a solid contributor on the big league level. I'd project his ceiling as a .275-.285 hitter about 15 hrs and 25 dbls. He won't be a superstar but could IMHO be a serviceable 1b / DH.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:51 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:It sounds like Mike McDade is making a good impression. I doubt he makes the big club, but he could be an option later in the yr.

He's a guy I think can be a solid contributor on the big league level. I'd project his ceiling as a .275-.285 hitter about 15 hrs and 25 dbls. He won't be a superstar but could IMHO be a serviceable 1b / DH.


I don't know, the last two years he played 225 games in AA and had a combined OPS of about .800. OK, but not that good for a first baseman who will be 24 in a couple of months. Francona said he's not exactly "nimble" around the bag but he has good hands, and that he'll go as far as his bat will take him.

Our starting outfield is set for the next couple of years unless Stubbs crashes and burns. Swisher is locked in at first base for the next five years. I suppose McDade has a shot at DH if Reynolds disappoints and does not return next year. But McDade needs to have a big year at AAA and hope Reynolds doesn't hit 30 HRs. If he does I'm sure we'll offer him another deal. We could use a right-handed power bat around here.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:05 am

Let me clarify a little here, my "solid contributor" is a useful bench bat, platoon bat to very avg starter. Contributors, nonetheless are useful and necessary pieces. My projections are AT BEST (his ceiling) expectations. Later in the yr would be a result of injury, trades, performance. Oh and those weren't my expectations this yr, call it his career yr.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:30 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Let me clarify a little here, my "solid contributor" is a useful bench bat, platoon bat to very avg starter. Contributors, nonetheless are useful and necessary pieces. My projections are AT BEST (his ceiling) expectations. Later in the yr would be a result of injury, trades, performance. Oh and those weren't my expectations this yr, call it his career yr.


So we should contact Cooperstown and have them delay adding on the Mike McDade Wing of the HOF?....

:lol
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:53 pm

Just got the phone with my B-I-L, he said the yanks called offering Granderson, Cano, Hughes and $$$$ for McDade, CA laughed and hung up the phone.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby daingean » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:21 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Just got the phone with my B-I-L, he said the yanks called offering Granderson, Cano, Hughes and $$$$ for McDade, CA laughed and hung up the phone.


From here on out McDade will be known as Ness (aka Elliott).
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:24 pm

daingean wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Just got the phone with my B-I-L, he said the yanks called offering Granderson, Cano, Hughes and $$$$ for McDade, CA laughed and hung up the phone.


From here on out McDade will be known as Ness (aka Elliott).

That obviously, would make them the Untouchables. :cool
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:03 am

It sounds like Frank the Tank needs to be shelved. I wish him a full recovery. As a silver lining it means a move to the sixty day DL and an opening on the 40 man slot for one of Rich Hill/ Scott Kazmir/ Jason Giambi/ Ryan Rayburn.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:49 am

The Blue Jays waived McDade at age 23 after six years in their farm system. That tells you everything you need to know about this guy. He looks to me like another Jordan Brown - he'll top out as a very good AAA first baseman at age 26 or so.

Last year playing in the Eastern League (AA) he had an OPS of .791, good for 46th. Among Indians farmhands in the Eastern League, Thomas Neal was 9th, Tim Fedroff was 16th, and Chun Chen was 32nd. McDade finished just above Adam Abraham's .783. I think Abraham is also a first baseman.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:03 am

McDade lost a spot on the roster bc of the trade of the entire Marlins roster to the Jays for a cpl prospects and a cpl bench pieces. He wasn't a flop in their minor league system as you make it sound. He has hit and hit well on every level. That's being said his future is limited and should not be overblown. My attempt in projecting his future ceiling was an attempt to temper expectations. That was not an attempt to say he's going to become this kind of player, rather this, is best he'd likely ever do (ceiling). He's not the second coming of David Ortiz but wouldn't that be nice.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:20 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:McDade l..... the second coming of David Ortiz but wouldn't that be nice.


I'm confused.. so we should go ahead with the Mike McDade wing of the Hall of Fame?

:redface

Homer.. fwiw.. I think you need to give the Mike McDade discussion/explanation, re-explanation up.. It's not going anywhere & has very little chance to be anything but humorous...
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:59 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:McDade l..... the second coming of David Ortiz but wouldn't that be nice.


I'm confused.. so we should go ahead with the Mike McDade wing of the Hall of Fame?

:redface

Homer.. fwiw.. I think you need to give the Mike McDade discussion/explanation, re-explanation up.. It's not going anywhere & has very little chance to be anything but humorous...

Agreed, (this is not a shot at anyone specifically, actually more about another life discussion than anything) it annoys me when people intentionally try to misconstrue what you say. Although, in a moment of 'hurry' I tend to think what I said is just not clear or someone just isn't getting it. Good chance they would love nothing more than to try to get under someone else's skin.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:22 am

I wasn't trying to say McDade was a "flop", I'm just saying that at age 23 he was an average AA hitter, like Adam Abraham, who plays the same position in the same league and is not considered a prospect. When the Jays needed some roster space they cut him. If they thought he had a productive future in the bigs I think they could have found somebody else to cut.

Since first base is his only position and Nick Swisher isn't going anywhere for a while, I think McDade is blocked no matter how well he hits at Akron or Columbus. He could DH, except they're saying they will no longer keep a player strictly to DH. His only shot is if Reynolds turns into Shelly Duncan while McDade lights it up at Columbus. Then he might get a shot, but he's also got McGuinness to deal with unless he gets returned to his original team.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:24 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I wasn't trying to say McDade was a "flop", I'm just saying that at age 23 he was an average AA hitter, like Adam Abraham, who plays the same position in the same league and is not considered a prospect. When the Jays needed some roster space they cut him. If they thought he had a productive future in the bigs I think they could have found somebody else to cut.

Since first base is his only position and Nick Swisher isn't going anywhere for a while, I think McDade is blocked no matter how well he hits at Akron or Columbus. He could DH, except they're saying they will no longer keep a player strictly to DH. His only shot is if Reynolds turns into Shelly Duncan while McDade lights it up at Columbus. Then he might get a shot, but he's also got McGuinness to deal with unless he gets returned to his original team.


You're probably right on McDade. Though I don't think he is necessarily as blocked as you make him out to be. Yes Swisher is at 1B now but if Stubbs really struggles I think you could start to see Swisher in RF more which opens up 1B/DH. He is also a switch hitter so could be a platoon guy with Stubbs down the line (with Swish moving to the OF). Giambi looks to have that spot potentially and still have McGuiness but think McDade has a legit shot at contributing this year. Tribe did keep him on the roster all winter when he could have been DFAed a few times.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:11 pm

When will Jason Giambi actually get a hit?.. he's OH-fer the spring so far.. but it's early..
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:05 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:When will Jason Giambi actually get a hit?.. he's OH-fer the spring so far.. but it's early..


That's what scares me about some labeling him a favorite to start on the Opening Day roster. Like you said, it is early so I don't want to panic just yet. He's a good veteran presence, but that can only go so far. Take the Trot Nixon experience.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:26 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:When will Jason Giambi actually get a hit?.. he's OH-fer the spring so far.. but it's early..


That's what scares me about some labeling him a favorite to start on the Opening Day roster. Like you said, it is early so I don't want to panic just yet. He's a good veteran presence, but that can only go so far. Take the Trot Nixon experience.


Even with a rough spring training (stats wise) I would be inclined to keep Giambi on the roster over Zeke and a few others.
For me it would be a matter of how were the at bats (hard hit ATOM balls, solid approach, etc). Giambi gets a bit of a pass due to his experience and past performance (more than an unproven prospect) but that's part of the game.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:06 pm

A couple of thoughts...


How good is Yan Gomes? More time at catcher is definitely needed, but as a back-up he could soon dislodge Marson. Would Marsons trade "value" be drastically diminished by returning to AAA at some point this season? I don't think Gomes makes the opening day team unless Marson goes down (injured/sent to AAA - *HNQ) or gets traded, but its hard to not like his bat, and if he keeps hitting like this he could claw his way on to the team. Ask me again in a week-ish.

Kazmir is officially penciled in as the 5th starter. Rich Hill and Nick Hagadone make the ML pen, Barnes returns to AAA as a starter. Keep eye open for other LHRP options as rosters get thinned throughout the league. Cleveland suddenly isn't a "last resort" option.

Giambi shouldn't "make" the team right now, if he turns it on then maybe, but really hope he ends up with the team in some other capacity. Raburn looks ready to start warming up his spot on the bench. He is pretty good at that actually.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:42 pm

criznit2009 wrote:A couple of thoughts...


How good is Yan Gomes? More time at catcher is definitely needed, but as a back-up he could soon dislodge Marson. Would Marsons trade "value" be drastically diminished by returning to AAA at some point this season? I don't think Gomes makes the opening day team unless Marson goes down (injured/sent to AAA - *HNQ) or gets traded, but its hard to not like his bat, and if he keeps hitting like this he could claw his way on to the team. Ask me again in a week-ish.

Kazmir is officially penciled in as the 5th starter. Rich Hill and Nick Hagadone make the ML pen, Barnes returns to AAA as a starter. Keep eye open for other LHRP options as rosters get thinned throughout the league. Cleveland suddenly isn't a "last resort" option.

Giambi shouldn't "make" the team right now, if he turns it on then maybe, but really hope he ends up with the team in some other capacity. Raburn looks ready to start warming up his spot on the bench. He is pretty good at that actually.


Apparently, it's use him or lose him:

...Scott Kazmir can opt out of his minor league deal with the Indians if he isn't on their Major League roster by April 2, ESPN's Buster Olney reports via twitter..
There is still about three plus weeks in Spring Training before the decision has to be made..up to now, pencil is the appropriate device to be writing with..
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:42 am

I think Giambi will be here in some capacity. Could be special asst to the coaching staff / bench piece something. I think he's pretty much a lock to be in that club house in some form.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby daingean » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:52 am

The next hurdle for Kazmir is going 5-6 innings which will pobably be in the last week and a half of ST. We'll see how he fares having to go through a line up more than once.

As for Giambi, I do not see what he has to offer as a player. The 25 man roster is just too small to give it to a guy on reputation. I do think that thiings in ST don't really start to count until statistically until the final 2 weeks. Many guys are padding stats going against guys that are destined for AA or waivers. Certainly some guys can lose a spot at this point in ST but nobody wins one.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:00 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think Giambi will be here in some capacity. Could be special asst to the coaching staff / bench piece something. I think he's pretty much a lock to be in that club house in some form.


Think just from comments ever since they signed him they wanted him on the roster.

Wouldn't be shocked if sometime before the 2014 season he's named a teams 2nd hitting coach (seems to be a new(ish) trend around the league).
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:25 am

Zeke Carrera is having a pretty good spring and is 5-for-6 in stolen bases. He's a guy they could bring in to pinch run late in a close game for Reynolds, Santana, or Chisenhall. According to Pluto's column today, Santana was the worst base runner in baseball last year (citing Bill James). I think Zeke would be of more use than Giambi, who would be limited to pinch hitting or occasional DHing against right-handed pitchers.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GoTribe028 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:25 am

Prosecutor wrote:Zeke Carrera is having a pretty good spring and is 5-for-6 in stolen bases. He's a guy they could bring in to pinch run late in a close game for Reynolds, Santana, or Chisenhall. According to Pluto's column today, Santana was the worst base runner in baseball last year (citing Bill James). I think Zeke would be of more use than Giambi, who would be limited to pinch hitting or occasional DHing against right-handed pitchers.


It's not a secret that I'm not really a fan of Carrera, he is what he is IMO. He's a solid enough reserve OF type. I think before Michael Bourn signed he had a real shot of making the club but right now I'm not too sure of that. We'll see what happens.

FWIW from Tony's Sunday Notes column today

Ezequiel Carrera (OF) – Carrera has bounced around between Cleveland and Columbus the last two seasons and done a solid job when called up the past two seasons, so much so that he has developed a good fan following that would like to see him make the opening day roster. But he is just 4-for-23 this spring, and even though he has 6 stolen bases it is hard to see the Indians carrying him as what amounts to a fifth outfielder and late inning pinch runner. He looks bound for the waiver wire.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Okay.. now it starts to ebb toward being real...

The first half of spring training is in the books and the following can be said...

-Michael Brantley watched as the Indians brought in high priced after high priced FA's.. and he came to camp with one thing in mind.. no way was he losing a starting spot in this OF.. Save for the spiking that produced 15 stitches and a nasty laceration, he's been at his best..

-Ryan Raburn.. typical MVP Spring Training for him.. Real baseball people have seen this act in the past.. Don't buy it until it's being sold at the corner of Ontario and Carnegie is what I'm saying..

-Trevor Bauer...is better than advertised.. there is no "smarter than everyone else.." punk attitude.. What he brings is a fastball that he is beginning to command much much better (his only real problem with the DBax in his four ML starts) and a change up that is just a wipe out pitch. If he isn't on the ODR.. he will be up shortly thereafter...

-Nick Swisher is a true leader.. a leader of fun..a leader of mischief.. a leader of showing how a professional hitter approaches an at bat.. a leader on the field and off.. This is a great signing.. perhaps the signing of the off season in the entirety of MLB..

Now come the surprises..

Hello Mr Gomes !!.. maybe?. who else?
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:47 am

The first name mentioned, Yan Gomes, is going to be a last day kind of decision. There is no doubt in my mind that he can hit. The question remains, can he be a quality ML back up receiver?... Now, onto the next name that keeps gnawing at me.. In as much as I would prefer this to NOT be the case, what if Houston was right?

What if Brett Myers is better suited, (read: would be vastly more effective) as a long man out of the pen?. Would it be so terrible?. What if the two guys in front of him are both inconsistent or younger and, therefore, more likely to have a bad outing necessitating the need for a veteran long man. A long man that can save the bullpen for a week to ten days. Would this be of value?. Zach McAllister has been told that he has earned the fourth spot in the rotation, leaving one rotation spot of four guys: Scott Kazmir, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Carlos Carrasco & Trevor Bauer.. So far, Scott Kazmir or Dice-K are pitching like the veterans they are. Trevor Bauer is also pitching very well, so far.. So, who earns the fifth spot in the rotation? Carrasco and Bauer both have options and it would be suitable from a numbers perspective (only) to have them start in the minors or extended spring training (where it's warm). Kazmir and Dice-K have opt out clauses that requires making the opening day roster. It's either include them, or lose them. Perhaps having too many SP's is a problem the Indians really don't want?.. nah..
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:05 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The first name mentioned, Yan Gomes, is going to be a last day kind of decision. There is no doubt in my mind that he can hit. The question remains, can he be a quality ML back up receiver?... Now, onto the next name that keeps gnawing at me.. In as much as I would prefer this to NOT be the case, what if Houston was right?

What if Brett Myers is better suited, (read: would be vastly more effective) as a long man out of the pen?. Would it be so terrible?. What if the two guys in front of him are both inconsistent or younger and, therefore, more likely to have a bad outing necessitating the need for a veteran long man. A long man that can save the bullpen for a week to ten days. Would this be of value?. Zach McAllister has been told that he has earned the fourth spot in the rotation, leaving one rotation spot of four guys: Scott Kazmir, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Carlos Carrasco & Trevor Bauer.. So far, Scott Kazmir or Dice-K are pitching like the veterans they are. Trevor Bauer is also pitching very well, so far.. So, who earns the fifth spot in the rotation? Carrasco and Bauer both have options and it would be suitable from a numbers perspective (only) to have them start in the minors or extended spring training (where it's warm). Kazmir and Dice-K have opt out clauses that requires making the opening day roster. It's either include them, or lose them. Perhaps having too many SP's is a problem the Indians really don't want?.. nah..


They didn't pay Myers $7 million to be a long man out of the pen. To answer your question would that be of value to the club? Not at all. David Huff (out of options) or Matsuzaka (opt out clause) would both be of better value in that role especially for the price.

I think Kazmir has basically showed everything any team could have hoped for, now it's just a question of health and can he hold up physically during his comeback. If he can he's all but locked down the last spot in the rotation.

I just think the Indians want to see what they have in Kazmir/Dice-K first, as well as seeing how Masterson/Jimenez rebound and just hope that McAllister and Myers just prove to be steady innings eaters before turning to Bauer and Carrasco. Not that they couldn't handle the situation it's just how I see it playing out. Bauer to Cbus and CC somewhere to help limit innings.

Ultimately I don't think it matters. By that I mean that I will be stunned if by the end of 2013, the Indians haven't had a starts made by all of Masterson, Jimenez, Myers, McAllister, Kazmir, Bauer, and Carrasco. And you still have Kluber available if it gets really bad.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:46 am

...They didn't pay Myers $7 million to be a long man out of the pen. To answer your question would that be of value to the club? ..
Well.. that wasn't the question.. the question is.. would a pitcher who can go 3 or 4 or 5 innings out of the pen (i.e. a long man) be of value to a club that is using young or inconsistent starting pitchers. You know.. an outing where one of these young or inconsistent SP's goes 1 2/3rds innings, throws 45 pitches and is bombed.. This is when a guy from the pen comes in and picks up the rest of the pen by going multiple innings.. i.e. as a long man..

The amount of money that player is paid or his dollar value.. wasn't the question. Thanks for playing Change the Question and Respond Negatively.. there will be some fine parting gifts for you...

:rolleyes
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:01 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
...They didn't pay Myers $7 million to be a long man out of the pen. To answer your question would that be of value to the club? ..
Well.. that wasn't the question.. the question is.. would a pitcher who can go 3 or 4 or 5 innings out of the pen (i.e. a long man) be of value to a club that is using young or inconsistent starting pitchers. You know.. an outing where one of these young or inconsistent SP's goes 1 2/3rds innings, throws 45 pitches and is bombed.. This is when a guy from the pen comes in and picks up the rest of the pen by going multiple innings.. i.e. as a long man..

The amount of money that player is paid or his dollar value.. wasn't the question. Thanks for playing Change the Question and Respond Negatively.. there will be some fine parting gifts for you...

:rolleyes


Shove it. Between you and that Swisherbuck character this board has taken a serious nose dive in discussions due to your snarky smart ass replies. I answered your question and did not respond with negativity.

You mentioned you though Myers maybe be better out of the pen as a long man and perhaps Houston had it right and flat out asked if there would be value in that. I asnwered with a no, and then explained my thinking behind it. They didn't pay him to be the long man, if they thought he'd be a good long man, he sure as hell wouldn't have gotten 7 million from the Indians. And guys like Dice K or Huff would be of better use to the club in those roles, cause they're both less effective than Myers, and they're cheaper.

So to answer the question, is there value in having a long man if the rotation sucks? Well doesn't that sorta answer your own question? :rolleyes
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:45 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
...They didn't pay Myers $7 million to be a long man out of the pen. To answer your question would that be of value to the club? ..
Well.. that wasn't the question.. the question is.. would a pitcher who can go 3 or 4 or 5 innings out of the pen (i.e. a long man) be of value to a club that is using young or inconsistent starting pitchers. You know.. an outing where one of these young or inconsistent SP's goes 1 2/3rds innings, throws 45 pitches and is bombed.. This is when a guy from the pen comes in and picks up the rest of the pen by going multiple innings.. i.e. as a long man..

The amount of money that player is paid or his dollar value.. wasn't the question. Thanks for playing Change the Question and Respond Negatively.. there will be some fine parting gifts for you...

:rolleyes


Shove it. Between you and that Swisherbuck character this board has taken a serious nose dive in discussions due to your snarky smart ass replies. I answered your question and did not respond with negativity.

You mentioned you though Myers maybe be better out of the pen as a long man and perhaps Houston had it right and flat out asked if there would be value in that. I asnwered with a no, and then explained my thinking behind it. They didn't pay him to be the long man, if they thought he'd be a good long man, he sure as hell wouldn't have gotten 7 million from the Indians. And guys like Dice K or Huff would be of better use to the club in those roles, cause they're both less effective than Myers, and they're cheaper.

So to answer the question, is there value in having a long man if the rotation sucks? Well doesn't that sorta answer your own question? :rolleyes


Snarky?. really?. grow up..

and you didn't answer the question... it has nothing to do with how much they're being paid..it has to do with what gives the Indians the best chance to win the games...smh..
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:43 am

I can see Geronimo's point, or at least I think I understand it. If the rotation is Masterson, Ubaldo, Myers, McAlister and Kazmir, that means Carrasco and Bauer are going to the minors. What if one or both of them finish strong over the next three weeks and show they are ready for the bigs right now? These guys are our future #1 and #2 starters. When they're ready they should be given the opportunity.

So a possible solution would be to have Myers be the long man and open up a spot for Bauer or CC. After all, Myers was a reliever last year.

The problem with that idea is that Myers had a choice as to where he signed. He signed with Cleveland not only for the money but because they told him they wanted him to start, which is what he prefers to do.

If they reneged and assigned him to the lowest ranking position on the staff (long relief), they would have essentially lied to him. Stuff like that gets around and would make it more difficult for the Indians to sign quality free agents in the future. You don't want to get the reputation for screwing over respected veterans. And no, you don't give your long man $7 million unless you're the Yankees or Red Sox.

I like the idea of putting Bauer at Columbus for a couple of months to give us another year of control down the road.
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:22 am

Prosecutor wrote:I can see Geronimo's point, or at least I think I understand it. If the rotation is Masterson, Ubaldo, Myers, McAlister and Kazmir, that means Carrasco and Bauer are going to the minors. What if one or both of them finish strong over the next three weeks and show they are ready for the bigs right now? These guys are our future #1 and #2 starters. When they're ready they should be given the opportunity.

So a possible solution would be to have Myers be the long man and open up a spot for Bauer or CC. After all, Myers was a reliever last year.

The problem with that idea is that Myers had a choice as to where he signed. He signed with Cleveland not only for the money but because they told him they wanted him to start, which is what he prefers to do.

If they reneged and assigned him to the lowest ranking position on the staff (long relief), they would have essentially lied to him. Stuff like that gets around and would make it more difficult for the Indians to sign quality free agents in the future. You don't want to get the reputation for screwing over respected veterans. And no, you don't give your long man $7 million unless you're the Yankees or Red Sox.

I like the idea of putting Bauer at Columbus for a couple of months to give us another year of control down the road.


Yes.. that is exactly the point. Brett Myers as a starter has value. Be that as a member of the rotation or as a trade chip, he brings value to the table. The Indians find themselves in a situation where they essentially have three guys who are capable of performing as their fifth starting pitcher. While it is likely to see Trevor Bauer start the year in AAA Columbus and my preferred starting spot for him in the Indians system, personally, I would prefer that he blows the doors off of every batter he faces the rest of the way in Spring Training and forces his way into the starting rotation. I'm sure most Indians' fans would be just as broken hearted about that kind of happenstance as I...

Then the question becomes.. who loses their spot?. Masterson?.. nope.. Ubaldo? there are more than a few fans that wouldn't mind seeing him anywhere but a ML pitching mound and they'd be right in some ways.. Zach McAllister as he's next in line? or Brett Myers who has experience as late as the 2012 season as a reliever..so.. what IF Houston did have it right?

If Indians can win 88 games in 2013 (the projected number of wins "IF ALL GOES WELL" in 2013), then the Indians have a realistic chance at getting to the post season. Brett Myers, who's feelings may be hurt because one or two young phenoms SP's gave the Indians a chance to win more games, will be part of the success of the Indians in 2013. The only question will be.. as a grizzled vet in the starting rotation?.. or as a bullpen stalwart/spot starter?.. IDK. it's food for thought and conversation..

btw.. Attempts at censuring ideas & conversation makes

.. this board take(n) a serious nose dive in discussions ...


Not what Swisher was stating. His childish reaction was uncalled for and he should apologize for his indiscretions..
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Re: Spring Training 2013: News, Notes and Thoughts...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:30 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I can see Geronimo's point, or at least I think I understand it. If the rotation is Masterson, Ubaldo, Myers, McAlister and Kazmir, that means Carrasco and Bauer are going to the minors. What if one or both of them finish strong over the next three weeks and show they are ready for the bigs right now? These guys are our future #1 and #2 starters. When they're ready they should be given the opportunity.

So a possible solution would be to have Myers be the long man and open up a spot for Bauer or CC. After all, Myers was a reliever last year.

The problem with that idea is that Myers had a choice as to where he signed. He signed with Cleveland not only for the money but because they told him they wanted him to start, which is what he prefers to do.

If they reneged and assigned him to the lowest ranking position on the staff (long relief), they would have essentially lied to him. Stuff like that gets around and would make it more difficult for the Indians to sign quality free agents in the future. You don't want to get the reputation for screwing over respected veterans. And no, you don't give your long man $7 million unless you're the Yankees or Red Sox.

I like the idea of putting Bauer at Columbus for a couple of months to give us another year of control down the road.


Yes.. that is exactly the point. Brett Myers as a starter has value. Be that as a member of the rotation or as a trade chip, he brings value to the table. The Indians find themselves in a situation where they essentially have three guys who are capable of performing as their fifth starting pitcher. While it is likely to see Trevor Bauer start the year in AAA Columbus and my preferred starting spot for him in the Indians system, personally, I would prefer that he blows the doors off of every batter he faces the rest of the way in Spring Training and forces his way into the starting rotation. I'm sure most Indians' fans would be just as broken hearted about that kind of happenstance as I...

Then the question becomes.. who loses their spot?. Masterson?.. nope.. Ubaldo? there are more than a few fans that wouldn't mind seeing him anywhere but a ML pitching mound and they'd be right in some ways.. Zach McAllister as he's next in line? or Brett Myers who has experience as late as the 2012 season as a reliever..so.. what IF Houston did have it right?

If Indians can win 88 games in 2013 (the projected number of wins "IF ALL GOES WELL" in 2013), then the Indians have a realistic chance at getting to the post season. Brett Myers, who's feelings may be hurt because one or two young phenoms SP's gave the Indians a chance to win more games, will be part of the success of the Indians in 2013. The only question will be.. as a grizzled vet in the starting rotation?.. or as a bullpen stalwart/spot starter?.. IDK. it's food for thought and conversation..

btw.. Attempts at censuring ideas & conversation makes

.. this board take(n) a serious nose dive in discussions ...


Not what Swisher was stating. His childish reaction was uncalled for and he should apologize for his indiscretions..

Is that the government's job?

Just kidding...
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