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Steroids and the Hall of Fame

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Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:24 pm

No one elected to this year's Hall of Fame class. 8th time in history, first since 1996.

Chime in.. do these guys belong?
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:22 pm

I'd expect Biggio gets in eventually, due to the 3000 hits. His numbers are remarkably similar to Kenny Lofton's except that he played 3 yrs longer. I'd like to see Kenny get in but he probably won't.

Of the others, Fred McGriff definitely deserves it. I could see a case being made for Raines & Trammell. Guys like Dale Murphy are the reason I'm so adamantly against any of the "Roid Rangers" being selected. Murphy's career followed the normal aging pattern. Had he taken roids or HGH he could have added 4 or 5 peak production years to his stats totals & ended up with HOF numbers. Instead, he stays outside looking in. Clemens. McGuire. Sosa, Bonds, as far as I'm concerned, should be excluded. No one can convince me that any of these guys would have put up HOF numbers without the PEDS. McGriff would have done better than all of them, and he can't get into the Hall.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:24 am

I'm personally of the opinion that Bonds/Clemens should be in. Even without steroids, they'd be in. And it's beyond silly to shut out guys like Piazza and Bagwell with zero proof that they did anything wrong. While I'd vote for Clemens/Bonds, I can understand why others wouldn't. There's significant circumstantial evidence around them, and Sosa/McGwire/Palmeiro are pretty much known users as well.

If I was a voter this year, I would have had Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Clemens, Bonds, Schilling, Lofton... then maybe Palmeiro, Edgar Martinez and McGriff. Sosa and McGwire really only have one trait of HoF-worthiness, and that's their home run total. You can make a solid argument that they would have been nowhere near hall of fame material without steroids.

Lofton being not eligible sucks, but it's understandable. Surprised that Bernie Williams didn't get enough votes to stay eligible. I figured the NY media types would keep him on as a token vote.

And who the hell voted for Aaron Sele? Seriously. Aaron Sele. If you're not going to take it seriously, give your vote to somebody who will.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:55 am

It is what it is.....I think some of the voters are just going to sit back and watch how things evolve over the next few years wrt Bonds/Clemens/Sosa et al. What is true is that we haven't heard the end of this. Every player now uses things to give them an edge be it legal supplements or illegal. The truth is that it wasn't against baseball rules during the 90's ... it was just illegal.

I agree on Murphy.....5 GG, 4 SS, back-to-back MVPs and playing in the middle of the diamond. He should be in. What hurts him is the power explosion which occurred right after he quit.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:54 pm

I'd vote them all in, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc. Every era has its abuse and bending of the rules, don't romanticise the past.

Plus not voting anyone in from the "steroid era" is insane. It's like handing everyone on the highway a speeding ticket because one guy was driving too fast and the rest was accidentally on the same road. Doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:28 am

The fact that they cheated... Steroids, corked bats, cocaine even doesn't mean guys like Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmerio (who I prolly dislike the most) were the only ones who upped their game artificially. Lots of guys did and lots of guys didn't , doesn't matter now - lack of regulation and rules blind eyedness blah blah blah means history is indeed history. Asterisks are asterisks and records are records, but when it actually comes down to whether or not they deserve entry into the hall of fame.....

It shouldn't be up to the writers to decide the moral fate, or set purity-of-the-game/nostaglia/non-baseball statistic standards to inclusion into the Hall of Fame. They should look purely at a players body of work as a ball player - with exceptions like serious criminal convictions. Bonds put up amazing numbers, Clemens, McGwire etc. did too. No doubt many juicers and of course non-juicers like our own Pronk (.cough.) put up nice numbers over those years. The writers loved it at the time, but now not so much, imagine that,
Now if anyone(s)? had a valid objection to their inclusion into the hall of fame it should only be the actual governing body(s)? of MLB, ahem - the commish! to decide whether or not guys who blew up the record books during the PEDeriod of baseball are allowed to enter.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:56 am

Also i think they should create some sort of display proclaiming/dissecting the steroid era of baseball at the hall of fame. As a result it would clearly point out/describe all the players involved, how involved and so on. In 100 years people should be able to go to Cooperstown and upon seeing Barry Bonds, McGwire etc. already know these former idols are the juicers/cheaters/whatevers of the past. No need to sugar coat it, really can't see keeping most these guys out when all things are considered.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:25 am

I don't think the numbers these guys put up mean a damn thing. That's the point. If you're going to base HOF inclusion on numbers & their numbers are fake, they don't belong.

Steroids make me sick. I've been lifting weights since 1969. I'm not going to bore anyone with my numbers but I got very strong during my age 25-45 years. I trained other guys for quite a while & only one of them used roids. I'm talking D-Bol, Anavar & Test. Worked with him for 6 months & he made good progress but he was impatient. He found a supplier(not hard to do) at our gym & started juicing. I found out & washed my hands of him. Nine months later he was squatting with 600 pounds & benching 460. He gained 60 pounds of muscle. Then came the day when his angry wife asked him about his needle-site pock marked ass, his shrunken balls, & why he didn't want sex anymore. She made him quit the drugs, he got smaller & after a while he just quit lifting. This guy was a natural athlete, the nephew & cousin of a father & son who both pitched in MLB. You would recognize the name.

Ah, you say, if everyone uses there's no advantage. Another guy, a power lifter who worked out at the same gym used for years & couldn't out lift me. He was a skinny guy, kinda strong for his size, but he couldn't get bigger no matter what he did. Even if everyone used, roids don't treat eveyone equally. In my mind that constitutes an unfair advantage. That's without even addressing how these inflated stats belittle those of earlier era guys who were clean.

The last thing I'd mention is the effect on kids who think that PEDs are the keys to success. I can't over emphasize how harmful these substances are, especially to kids. The cases of heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure, ex Mr Universes on dialysis, guys in their mid 50's (if they live that long) with the bodies of 80 yr olds are legion. I've met these guys, I know these guys, I've lost friends to these drugs. I'm not even going to go into the mutilation that occurs to women who use. I have friends whose wives/girlfiends used & you don't even want to hear about it. Trust me.

Kids have to know that not only will users who are caught won't be voted into the HOF but that they will be banned from Baseball. Kids think that they are immortal & bullet-proof & no prattling from "old guys" is going to deter them. We have to make it painful if they are caught, then they might think hard before they use.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:29 pm

Rocky55 wrote:I don't think the numbers these guys put up mean a damn thing. That's the point. If you're going to base HOF inclusion on numbers & their numbers are fake, they don't belong.

Steroids make me sick. I've been lifting weights since 1969. I'm not going to bore anyone with my numbers but I got very strong during my age 25-45 years. I trained other guys for quite a while & only one of them used roids. I'm talking D-Bol, Anavar & Test. Worked with him for 6 months & he made good progress but he was impatient. He found a supplier(not hard to do) at our gym & started juicing. I found out & washed my hands of him. Nine months later he was squatting with 600 pounds & benching 460. He gained 60 pounds of muscle. Then came the day when his angry wife asked him about his needle-site pock marked ass, his shrunken balls, & why he didn't want sex anymore. She made him quit the drugs, he got smaller & after a while he just quit lifting. This guy was a natural athlete, the nephew & cousin of a father & son who both pitched in MLB. You would recognize the name.

Ah, you say, if everyone uses there's no advantage. Another guy, a power lifter who worked out at the same gym used for years & couldn't out lift me. He was a skinny guy, kinda strong for his size, but he couldn't get bigger no matter what he did. Even if everyone used, roids don't treat eveyone equally. In my mind that constitutes an unfair advantage. That's without even addressing how these inflated stats belittle those of earlier era guys who were clean.

The last thing I'd mention is the effect on kids who think that PEDs are the keys to success. I can't over emphasize how harmful these substances are, especially to kids. The cases of heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure, ex Mr Universes on dialysis, guys in their mid 50's (if they live that long) with the bodies of 80 yr olds are legion. I've met these guys, I know these guys, I've lost friends to these drugs. I'm not even going to go into the mutilation that occurs to women who use. I have friends whose wives/girlfiends used & you don't even want to hear about it. Trust me.

Kids have to know that not only will users who are caught won't be voted into the HOF but that they will be banned from Baseball. Kids think that they are immortal & bullet-proof & no prattling from "old guys" is going to deter them. We have to make it painful if they are caught, then they might think hard before they use.


I agree with everything your saying. I do agree that it won't hurt for the voters to take a step back and see how things unfold over then next few years wrt these '90s - 2000's guys. One thing that the 90's did was make the numbers that guys like Dale Murphy, Alan Trammel, Craig Biggio, Joe Carter and all look very puny when in fact these guys dominated in the pre-roid era.

I also wonder what will happen with guys that have been accused of using but not proven.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:34 pm

I have but one thing to say.. if the fair and equal treatment of all parties is not meted out properly, then no one should be considered blameless.. that includes..

-the players for using substances that, in their hearts, they knew gave them an unfair advantage..

-the management inclusive of front offices, field management and ownership.. who reaped the rewards of superb on field exploits of the players involved...

-& last and certainly least, the media who was complicit in both the hyperbole of greatness covering the feats and the indignation in the disgrace of the players found to be culpable...

Edit.. Tony, where do you stand on the players, ownership and media on this issue?...are you, at least indirectly & partially culpable?...
Last edited by GeronimoSon on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby 7foot3 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:11 pm

Rocky55 wrote:I don't think the numbers these guys put up mean a damn thing. That's the point. If you're going to base HOF inclusion on numbers & their numbers are fake, they don't belong.

Steroids make me sick. I've been lifting weights since 1969. I'm not going to bore anyone with my numbers but I got very strong during my age 25-45 years. I trained other guys for quite a while & only one of them used roids. I'm talking D-Bol, Anavar & Test. Worked with him for 6 months & he made good progress but he was impatient. He found a supplier(not hard to do) at our gym & started juicing. I found out & washed my hands of him. Nine months later he was squatting with 600 pounds & benching 460. He gained 60 pounds of muscle. Then came the day when his angry wife asked him about his needle-site pock marked ass, his shrunken balls, & why he didn't want sex anymore. She made him quit the drugs, he got smaller & after a while he just quit lifting. This guy was a natural athlete, the nephew & cousin of a father & son who both pitched in MLB. You would recognize the name.

Ah, you say, if everyone uses there's no advantage. Another guy, a power lifter who worked out at the same gym used for years & couldn't out lift me. He was a skinny guy, kinda strong for his size, but he couldn't get bigger no matter what he did. Even if everyone used, roids don't treat eveyone equally. In my mind that constitutes an unfair advantage. That's without even addressing how these inflated stats belittle those of earlier era guys who were clean.

The last thing I'd mention is the effect on kids who think that PEDs are the keys to success. I can't over emphasize how harmful these substances are, especially to kids. The cases of heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure, ex Mr Universes on dialysis, guys in their mid 50's (if they live that long) with the bodies of 80 yr olds are legion. I've met these guys, I know these guys, I've lost friends to these drugs. I'm not even going to go into the mutilation that occurs to women who use. I have friends whose wives/girlfiends used & you don't even want to hear about it. Trust me.

Kids have to know that not only will users who are caught won't be voted into the HOF but that they will be banned from Baseball. Kids think that they are immortal & bullet-proof & no prattling from "old guys" is going to deter them. We have to make it painful if they are caught, then they might think hard before they use.


All you've talked about is ability to hit the gym. Not hit a baseball. We can't go prattling on about fake numbers when we aren't even sure how the numbers are being affected. I know, you're going to talk about the increase in home runs. But in the 90s we also saw guys become sincerely dedicated to non-PED weight training, a couple rounds of expansion, smaller parks, better bats, and supposedly a livelier ball. There was a lot more going on that steroid use.

And while it's all well and good to feel so much disdain about the evils of steroids and how it will affect our children, there is little to nothing said about the other evils around the game. Amphetamines are just as prominently used to help at the gym, but no one gets as up in arms about them. Every year there are multiple athletes who drive drunk. These guys are more sangerous to our society, and as an example to our kids, than any steroid user. There are wife-beaters, recreational drug users, and just general scum throughout the history of the game, and in the Hall. Why are we concerned about banning just these guys and just now?

Which gets to my last point, Canseco was no Patient Zero. Steroids had been around a long time before, and guys were experiment with testosterone boosters back in the 1800s - check out Pud Galvin. If the numbers are fake now, then they've never been real.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:48 pm

The Baseball Hall of Fame is one of my favorite places on Earth.

It is a repository of all that is great about "our national pastime." A place to honor the best of the best.
At it's root though, it is a history museum. One of the HOF mantra's is "connecting generations".
Obviously, ignoring what has happened goes against that mantra, and it's mission as a history museum as well.

My solution, although far from perfect would allow that history into the hall, but separate from the true honorees.

My proposal is to include in Cooperstown the Hall of Baseball Legends. I choose the word 'Legend' carefully. A legend has a story. It might be true, or it might not. It's up to you to take it for what it's worth.

The players that used PED's, or accused of using PED's, or took PED's unknowingly, or say they took PED's for a brief time, should be treated differently from other players. By placing them in the Hall of Legends, it would acknowledge their accomplishments, but still separate them from the regular HOF'ers.

The Hall of Legends could also be used for other players that have an asterisk on their biography like Pete Rose or Joe Jackson. You could even make the case to reduce the status of Ty Cobb because he was such a miserable human being.
(I'm sure the Pro Football HOF is thrilled to be honoring OJ Simpson).

It doesn't have to be limited to stories with a negative connotation either. There were plenty of players that had brief, but historic careers that were legends, but not HOF'ers.

In my mind, you would still need to be elected into the Hall of Legends. That elected class would be honored on a totally different day than the normal HOF enshrinement.

Regular HOF'ers don't want much to do with these people. By keeping them separate, it could appease them.

By adding a Hall of Legends, the HOF could truly connect generations, but tell the stories.
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Re: Steroids and the Hall of Fame

Postby daingean » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:50 am

1. I hate the PEDs but for most of the guys careers they were not against MLB rules.
2. PEDs distorted statistics which is why I say hold on with guys in this era to see how their stats stack up with guys in that era.
3. I think guys like Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, and Alan Trammel are affected by the PED era. Their stats were very good for their era but now look pun compared to the stats put up during the PED era. Well Raines' SB numbers are good in any era.
4. Not all of the stat explosion can be blamed on PEDs because stadiums were built to be offensive parks and expansion watered down pitching.
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