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Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

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Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:38 pm

It looks like these are the two finalists for the job. They are both good candidates, and I wouldn't complain if either one got the job. They both have spent a lifetime in a baseball family. The success of either of them will be determined by what the FO and ownership do.
So how do you pick? What criteria do you use?

ORGANIZATION:
Francona has been a manager in 2 different organizations. He's run spring training several times. Nothing new here. Probably will get a buddy like Brad Mills on his staff.
Alomar has no experience as a manager. We would just be guessing as to how organized he would be. But I'm sure there will be a former manager on his staff, like Hargrove. The FO will help in this area, if needed.

COMMUNICATION WITH PLAYERS:
Francona actually has worked with some younger players in his career. Although he's had more success with veterans. In the end, I think anybody that can waive 2 World Series rings in your face will grab your attention.
Alomar is much younger. He only retired as a player a few years ago. Another plus is that he is bi-lingual. (Although that didn't help Manny.)

COMMUNICATION WITH THE MEDIA:
Francona has been a manager in Philadelphia and Boston. Cleveland would be a day at the beach.
Alomar would get a honeymoon period with the Cleveland media. He also has the benefit of being a fan favorite.

My choice?
I guess I take Francona, but for a reason not listed above. I feel if Francona takes the job, the FO will feel more pressure and responsibility to provide him with more major league ready players. With Sandy, I think it would be easier for the FO to BS their way through another off season.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:36 pm

Just a few minutes ago Ken Roaenthal & others on the Twitter reporting Terry Francona will be named manager of the Indians as soon as Monday.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby timdav » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:16 pm

Multiple media sources, local and national, report this afternoon that Terry Francona will be the new manager of the Indians....and Sandy Alomar, Jr. has been informed.

The Indians are waiting for special MLBB permission to announce the change, since typically major trades & manager changes aren't permitted during the playoffs (without permission of Bud Selig's office).
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:19 pm

Welp, let the speculation begin. Does Sandy stay aboard?
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:34 pm

I'd love to see him stay, maybe a bench coach if both would do it. I'd also consider bumping Sandy up to an special asst to the GM. I'm not sure it will be an issue, there's a great chance he gets his opportunity else where.

Curious about the numbers $$$, but BIG time move by the Tribe. Should help soothe the fan base, and begin a new atmosphere and culture of winning.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:39 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Welp, let the speculation begin. Does Sandy stay aboard?


Honestly, I think not. Nick Cafardo and a few others have mentioned that Brad Mills may end up back with Francona as his bench coach again.

Unless Alomar takes another role with the club I just don't see his return. I still hope Mike Sarbaugh is on the staff in some capacity.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby timdav » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:59 pm

Sandy will likely interview elsewhere. There could be 4 or 5 manager openings.

Sarbaugh seems a pretty sure thing to be on the Tribe's big league coaching staff.

You'd have to assume Terry F. would never have considered taking the Tribe job without strong assurances from the Dolans they'd make significant upgrades to the major league team. That just makes sense, don't you think?

Maybe the FO and Dolans finally realize the critical need to make big upgrades. If they do so, it's great for them and great for us Indians fans.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:47 pm

I think it's realistic they go both ways developing some young guys and trying to be very active adding particular mid level pieces through FA, but the biggest acq. will likely be through being very aggressive on the trade front.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby daingean » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:10 am

One thing about Francona is that he lead Boston to their first WS title in 80+ years. If he can do that in Cleveland (60+ years), I'd crown him king.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:25 am

...You'd have to assume Terry F. would never have considered taking the Tribe job without strong assurances from the Dolans they'd make significant upgrades to the major league team. That just makes sense, don't you think? ..Maybe the FO and Dolans finally realize the critical need to make big upgrades. If they do so, it's great for them and great for us Indians fans.

Pure speculation on what you want to have happen as opposed to anything based on facts in evidence.. Sets up for a nice round of negativism in the event the FA market turns out to be as bad as it really is and has proven to be, historically..
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:26 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think it's realistic they go both ways developing some young guys and trying to be very active adding particular mid level pieces through FA, but the biggest acq. will likely be through being very aggressive on the trade front.


+1

It's really the only way the Indians can compete on this unlevel playing field...
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GoTribe028 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:15 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
...You'd have to assume Terry F. would never have considered taking the Tribe job without strong assurances from the Dolans they'd make significant upgrades to the major league team. That just makes sense, don't you think? ..Maybe the FO and Dolans finally realize the critical need to make big upgrades. If they do so, it's great for them and great for us Indians fans.

Pure speculation on what you want to have happen as opposed to anything based on facts in evidence.. Sets up for a nice round of negativism in the event the FA market turns out to be as bad as it really is and has proven to be, historically..


Almost anyone would speculate that the Indians intend on improving the club somehow if they're going to invest this heavily just in the manager. He didn't say they would spend heavily on FA. You just made it sound like he's planting seeds to hate on Dolan or the FO later.

Of course the FA market looks bad, it is. The bigger moves this team can make are on the trade front most likely. That's not to say the Indians couldn't find some quality from free agent(s). That's CA's job to figure out which moves to make and which not to, and sadly,his track record isn't good.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby timdav » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:01 pm

It absolutely will be very difficult for the Indians' FO to make very many big improvements this off-season.

Supposedly this year's crop of free agents are among the worse/least-quality in 10 years+. And, there's not many major-league-ready players in the farm system not already in Cleveland....other than guys coming back off injuries (Hagadone, Carrasco).

And, only a couple players that might likely be traded: Chris Perez & Choo. The Tribe has too many holes to fill in one off-season...even if possible C. Perez & Choo trades were excellent for the Indians.

The organization has declined enough to be in a very tough spot...it's probably going to be at least 2014, if not 2015 before the Indians can realistically go deep in the playoffs. I'd love to be wrong about that opinion.

But...hiring Francona and hopefully starting to make upgrades would be encouraging.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby daingean » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm

timdav wrote:It absolutely will be very difficult for the Indians' FO to make very many big improvements this off-season.

Supposedly this year's crop of free agents are among the worse/least-quality in 10 years+. And, there's not many major-league-ready players in the farm system not already in Cleveland....other than guys coming back off injuries (Hagadone, Carrasco).

And, only a couple players that might likely be traded: Chris Perez & Choo. The Tribe has too many holes to fill in one off-season...even if possible C. Perez & Choo trades were excellent for the Indians.

The organization has declined enough to be in a very tough spot...it's probably going to be at least 2014, if not 2015 before the Indians can realistically go deep in the playoffs. I'd love to be wrong about that opinion.

But...hiring Francona and hopefully starting to make upgrades would be encouraging.


I have very little confidence in the FO but I do have that hope that a fan has. Looking at the line-up we do have some nice pieces: Kipnis, Choo, Chizenall, Santana, Asdrubal and Brantley offensively and Masterson, C.Perez, Pestano, J Smith, Sipp and a few other arms. I think our pitching is not that bad (I think Santana does not call a good game or frames the ball very well). I hate wasting Santana's arm at 1B but I think they need to move him out from behind the plate. If he can learn to play LF it would be great (or RF if Choo is moved). They can then sign a 1B and a C we would be okay offensively. Marson or the FA C should improve the pitching. I won't expect us to be favorites but we can contend and a September pennent run will do wonders plus you always have a chance if you can get into the playoffs. Hopefully Francona will have some input on acquisitions (more than CA looking at stats and saying he fits......)
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:18 pm

I think I made mention of that as well, last offseason... but I said 1b bc of the hole there and Marsons defense. I actually like the idea of LF bc of his arm.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:23 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think I made mention of that as well, last offseason... but I said 1b bc of the hole there and Marsons defense. I actually like the idea of LF bc of his arm.


Marson is way too much of a liability offensively for LF.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:28 am

That was Marson catching bc of his defense, with Santana getting LF. I said last yr move Santana to 1b bc of his offensive potential. Just saying I think the Tribe should think about the position change for Santana bc of his bat, I wasn't very clear with that. I think Santana could put up more offense if he had the opportuni to focus more on his bat. Marson gets on base with a lot of walks but doesn't offer much with the bat, but his defense is solid and the Tribe could always bring in solid vet C fairly cheap.Just seems it may be better way of filling one of the holes 1b / LF creatively.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:29 am

... He didn't say they would spend heavily on FA. You just made it sound like he's planting seeds to hate on Dolan or the FO later....


You are only partially correct in this comment.. The "seed planting" portion of the comment is true. Take Rusty's constant & pedantic barrage of explaining nothing while castigating the Indian's front office as spread sheet jockeys and non-baseball mavens.. It goes nowhere other than to ingratiate the author & his massive ego...

It should be clear from this posting as well as 10 to 20 others that any team not able to throw the same money they'd spend on free agents in a fire ring and light it (at least you'd get some warmth out of it) should not engage. in the acquisition of free agents. They do so at their own peril. The idea that the front office is "going for it" or at least 'spending" some money is for losers and soon to be bankrupt business operators. e.g. Who wants Sizemore's, Hafner's & Westbrook's salary back from their last three years with the Indians? everyone?

The FA market is littered with over paid / under performing players represented by blood sucking agents who's only intent is to maximize the dollars going to their clients. The Indians are not a team that can afford to be wrong w/r to spending huge sums of cash on under performers.. It's why guys like Kotchman & Cunningham & Sizemore & Damon are brought on board.. They are relatively cheap and have, at least a chance, of allowing the front office to find "lightning in a bottle". The risk is huge and the rewards are scarce..

This year's free agent market is being universally proclaimed as being weak, yet, the comments on this board about it being CA's job to find the pieces from the FA crop doesn't ring true & it's being pointed out. The majority of posters are stating that the trade market is really the Indians best chance & they're correct. Finding a trade that benefits the Indians in their pursuit of a FOR/MOR and a MLB ready RH hitting corner position player is the only means to upgrade without taking a huge financial risk. btw... an impact trade is somewhat more likely to happen with the new manager.. but that is yet to be seen..
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:12 pm

As most of us have heard by now. Terry Francona's contract as manager of the Indians has an "opt-out" clause. He can opt-out if Antonetti and/or Shapiro are replaced.

I don't have an issue with the hiring of Francona.
I do have some concern about this clause.
I doesn't give the Dolans much of a hammer if CA has another horrible season.
If you had to choose a manager. And both candidates were good. Would you choose the one that guaranteed you would not loose your own job for the next 4 years? Sounds like a conflict of interest there.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:48 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:As most of us have heard by now. Terry Francona's contract as manager of the Indians has an "opt-out" clause. He can opt-out if Antonetti and/or Shapiro are replaced.

I don't have an issue with the hiring of Francona.
I do have some concern about this clause.
I doesn't give the Dolans much of a hammer if CA has another horrible season.
If you had to choose a manager. And both candidates were good. Would you choose the one that guaranteed you would not loose your own job for the next 4 years? Sounds like a conflict of interest there.


The opt out doesn't bother me. If things get bad enough that MS and/or CA are fired then I'm sure TF wasn't living up to expectations. Hopefully, TF will have some say (maybe veto power) in the team's acquisitions especially the mid-tier FA's they have.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:08 am

I think the main reason Francona signed with the Tribe was bc he was comfortable with the situation and mainly the FO. I don't think it's a real issue, many mgrs have that language written in their contracts.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:15 am

daingean wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:As most of us have heard by now. Terry Francona's contract as manager of the Indians has an "opt-out" clause. He can opt-out if Antonetti and/or Shapiro are replaced.

I don't have an issue with the hiring of Francona.
I do have some concern about this clause.
I doesn't give the Dolans much of a hammer if CA has another horrible season.
If you had to choose a manager. And both candidates were good. Would you choose the one that guaranteed you would not loose your own job for the next 4 years? Sounds like a conflict of interest there.


The opt out doesn't bother me. If things get bad enough that MS and/or CA are fired then I'm sure TF wasn't living up to expectations. Hopefully, TF will have some say (maybe veto power) in the team's acquisitions especially the mid-tier FA's they have.

So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:18 am

Rocky55 wrote:
daingean wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:As most of us have heard by now. Terry Francona's contract as manager of the Indians has an "opt-out" clause. He can opt-out if Antonetti and/or Shapiro are replaced.

I don't have an issue with the hiring of Francona.
I do have some concern about this clause.
I doesn't give the Dolans much of a hammer if CA has another horrible season.
If you had to choose a manager. And both candidates were good. Would you choose the one that guaranteed you would not loose your own job for the next 4 years? Sounds like a conflict of interest there.


The opt out doesn't bother me. If things get bad enough that MS and/or CA are fired then I'm sure TF wasn't living up to expectations. Hopefully, TF will have some say (maybe veto power) in the team's acquisitions especially the mid-tier FA's they have.

So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Yeah the opt-out doesn't bother me at all either. I think it's actually a good/smart move and one that any owner would love to have. Typically an incoming GM would want to hire their own manager so Francona opting out in the event Shapiro and/or Antonetti were fired would only save the Dolan's money in that they wouldn't have to pay Francona after being fired like we did with Wedge and are doing with Acta next year. And this isn't a Dolan's cheap thing, even the richest most spend happy owner in sports wouldn't want to pay 2 managers/coaches for the same position if they didn't have to.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:46 pm

daingean wrote:The opt out doesn't bother me. If things get bad enough that MS and/or CA are fired then I'm sure TF wasn't living up to expectations. Hopefully, TF will have some say (maybe veto power) in the team's acquisitions especially the mid-tier FA's they have.


I though that just about every manager had "some" say in team's acquisitions though. Some more than others but hard to get a team to work if you're just throwing players at a manager that he may not want.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:48 pm

daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).


The question is would you even want (edit) Francona as your GM? I mean sure the guy knows a lot about baseball but that doesn't mean he'd make even a halfway decent manager...
Last edited by Hermie13 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:56 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).


The question is would you even want Antonetti as your GM? I mean sure the guy knows a lot about baseball but that doesn't mean he'd make even a halfway decent manager...


Want Antonetti? Not really but we are stuck with him. I hope he has success but I've soured on him at the moment. He can learn from his mistakes. I just think there is a place for stats but you have to trust scouts eyes first.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:05 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).


The question is would you even want Antonetti as your GM? I mean sure the guy knows a lot about baseball but that doesn't mean he'd make even a halfway decent manager...


Want Antonetti? Not really but we are stuck with him. I hope he has success but I've soured on him at the moment. He can learn from his mistakes. I just think there is a place for stats but you have to trust scouts eyes first.


ha, that was a typo on my part, meant to say would you even want Francona as your GM (referring to Francona getting the job). epic fail on my part there.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby daingean » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).


The question is would you even want Antonetti as your GM? I mean sure the guy knows a lot about baseball but that doesn't mean he'd make even a halfway decent manager...


Want Antonetti? Not really but we are stuck with him. I hope he has success but I've soured on him at the moment. He can learn from his mistakes. I just think there is a place for stats but you have to trust scouts eyes first.


ha, that was a typo on my part, meant to say would you even want Francona as your GM (referring to Francona getting the job). epic fail on my part there.


I cannot make that decision at this point. Who knows why LD & MS would want CA out (if they don't want him out now). Something like a scandal would make me think especially if the team was winning. I know I don't want a guy pulling double duty (manager and GM) but then the only 2 times the Tribe has won a WS is when they had a player manager (Speaker and Boudreau).
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:11 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:So if Dolan calls Francona into the office after 2 seasons & offers him the GM job, does anyone think he'd opt out? He might like Antonetti but opportunity is opportunity.


GM job would mean a new contract. Yes he'd opt out of his current one to sign the GM contract (if he wants the job).


The question is would you even want Antonetti as your GM? I mean sure the guy knows a lot about baseball but that doesn't mean he'd make even a halfway decent manager...


Want Antonetti? Not really but we are stuck with him. I hope he has success but I've soured on him at the moment. He can learn from his mistakes. I just think there is a place for stats but you have to trust scouts eyes first.


ha, that was a typo on my part, meant to say would you even want Francona as your GM (referring to Francona getting the job). epic fail on my part there.


I cannot make that decision at this point. Who knows why LD & MS would want CA out (if they don't want him out now). Something like a scandal would make me think especially if the team was winning. I know I don't want a guy pulling double duty (manager and GM) but then the only 2 times the Tribe has won a WS is when they had a player manager (Speaker and Boudreau).

Should have elaborated. Meant to propose that:

A) Things go badly. B) Dolan is convinced that Francona isn't at fault. C) Shap & Antonetti are fired. D) Dolan replaces Shap with, for instance, Neal Huntington with the proviso that Francona remains, as either manager or GM, with a contract extension.

Under that scenario I could see Francona foregoing the op-out. Would also add that Francona would, IMO, be a big improvement over Antonetti as GM.

Far fetched, maybe, just trying to imagine conditions that might prevent the opt-out.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:35 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Should have elaborated. Meant to propose that:

A) Things go badly. B) Dolan is convinced that Francona isn't at fault. C) Shap & Antonetti are fired. D) Dolan replaces Shap with, for instance, Neal Huntington with the proviso that Francona remains, as either manager or GM, with a contract extension.

Under that scenario I could see Francona foregoing the op-out. Would also add that Francona would, IMO, be a big improvement over Antonetti as GM.

Far fetched, maybe, just trying to imagine conditions that might prevent the opt-out.


I know it was just an example but I don't see how Hunginton would be a better option over Shap/Antonnetti...

Fair enough on thinking Francona would be a big improvement over Antonetti....curious why you think that though (again, not saying you're wrong just curious)? Are you just that down on Antonetti or really think Francona is that good a GM candidate down the line? Don't see how a guy with 1 year in a front office would be a big improvment over any GM in baseball. Francona is a manager; he left a cushy front office job to be a base coach. Think it's a bit presumptuous to even think he wants to be a GM...

And while I am a fan of hiring Francona as manager...let's not forget he was pretty bad in Philly as their manager before bouncing around a few organizations. Won two World Series but did it by taking over an ALCS team. He hasn't been apart of a building process yet so not sure what he's done to make you think he'd build a team as a GM better than Antonetti or Shapiro, unless you are just so incredibly down on Antonetti that you think anyone would be better (which I disagree with but fair enough if you do, you wouldn't be alone I'm sure).
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:07 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Should have elaborated. Meant to propose that:

A) Things go badly. B) Dolan is convinced that Francona isn't at fault. C) Shap & Antonetti are fired. D) Dolan replaces Shap with, for instance, Neal Huntington with the proviso that Francona remains, as either manager or GM, with a contract extension.

Under that scenario I could see Francona foregoing the op-out. Would also add that Francona would, IMO, be a big improvement over Antonetti as GM.

Far fetched, maybe, just trying to imagine conditions that might prevent the opt-out.


I know it was just an example but I don't see how Hunginton would be a better option over Shap/Antonnetti...

Fair enough on thinking Francona would be a big improvement over Antonetti....curious why you think that though (again, not saying you're wrong just curious)? Are you just that down on Antonetti or really think Francona is that good a GM candidate down the line? Don't see how a guy with 1 year in a front office would be a big improvment over any GM in baseball. Francona is a manager; he left a cushy front office job to be a base coach. Think it's a bit presumptuous to even think he wants to be a GM...

And while I am a fan of hiring Francona as manager...let's not forget he was pretty bad in Philly as their manager before bouncing around a few organizations. Won two World Series but did it by taking over an ALCS team. He hasn't been apart of a building process yet so not sure what he's done to make you think he'd build a team as a GM better than Antonetti or Shapiro, unless you are just so incredibly down on Antonetti that you think anyone would be better (which I disagree with but fair enough if you do, you wouldn't be alone I'm sure).

Understand, the whole scenario I mentioned was an effort to suggest that the opt-out isn't necessarily a given if Shap & Antonetti leave/get axed.

I like just about every move the Prates have made under Huntington; that's first. Second Huntington & Francona have worked together before. Minus info to the contrary, they could do so again. Third, I believe that Huntington is eminently qualified to replace Shap. Since it would be a promotion for him he should be amenable to listen to a few suggestions about staff. Fourth, I have no idea if Francona aspires to a GM job. If he does, where better to get his feet wet? Low expectations, a difficult (in some sense, payrool, etc) owner, personal inexperience at the job, attendance woes, all lead to an out of proportion favorable response by the "Baseball Community" to even modest success. Fifth, since there are no set criteria to judge wo is/isn't qualified to be a GM, I think that Francona's background would serve him well in the job. This is just an opinion, based on subjective analysis by an admitted non-expert. Lastly, I'n definitely not a fan of Antonetti. I'd call his tenure, so far, and unqualified failure. Signings, trades, the whole deal. One could say that he hasn't been in charge for very long but remember, we're talking about what might happen two years from now. The only reason the job would be available is if Antonetti botched it.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona; It's TF, with "Opt-Out"

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:45 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Understand, the whole scenario I mentioned was an effort to suggest that the opt-out isn't necessarily a given if Shap & Antonetti leave/get axed.

I like just about every move the Prates have made under Huntington; that's first. Second Huntington & Francona have worked together before. Minus info to the contrary, they could do so again. Third, I believe that Huntington is eminently qualified to replace Shap. Since it would be a promotion for him he should be amenable to listen to a few suggestions about staff. Fourth, I have no idea if Francona aspires to a GM job. If he does, where better to get his feet wet? Low expectations, a difficult (in some sense, payrool, etc) owner, personal inexperience at the job, attendance woes, all lead to an out of proportion favorable response by the "Baseball Community" to even modest success. Fifth, since there are no set criteria to judge wo is/isn't qualified to be a GM, I think that Francona's background would serve him well in the job. This is just an opinion, based on subjective analysis by an admitted non-expert. Lastly, I'n definitely not a fan of Antonetti. I'd call his tenure, so far, and unqualified failure. Signings, trades, the whole deal. One could say that he hasn't been in charge for very long but remember, we're talking about what might happen two years from now. The only reason the job would be available is if Antonetti botched it.


Fair enough on Antonetti (for the record I'm not a fan either)....just can't see how you're that high on Hungtinton though. So much as been made of the Indians collapse this year but the Pirates just became the first team in ML history (162 game season) to be 16 games over .500 at the 108 game mark and finish under .500. Hard to find many good moves Hungington has made IMO. His drafts were aggressive, but other than those guys taken at the top (which weren't hard picks), have they gotten much? Could get your wish as there are rumors circulating that Huntington's job is in real jeopardy after this epic collapse by the Pirates (though he probably is safe for at least one more year). An intersting view on Huntington from a Pirates fan's standpoint: http://blogs.piratesprospects.com/linville/neal-huntington-should-be-fired

As far as Hungtington and Francona working together, Huntington was Director of Player Development in 2001 when Francona was a special assistant to Hart and Shapiro. I'm sure they bumped into each other some but really wonder how much they actually did work together. Admittedly though don't know what a "special assistant to the GM" really entails. Anyone?

I still think that if Antonetti/shapiro get cut that the new GM coming in would just in turn fire Francona making this opt-out a moot point/money saver but that's just me maybe.


This may belong more in the other thread but with Huntington's job looking less secure I wonder just how much they would be willing to give up for a guy like Asdrubal? SS is a huge need for them and they obviously have some nice arms that the Tribe would love to have in their system. If the Pirates aren't at least .500 next year, can't see how Hunginton isn't fired. That would be 6 years of under .500 ball...
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:57 am

....Admittedly though don't know what a "special assistant to the GM" really entails. Anyone?....

It means you pick up the dry cleaning after the car wash...

The Pirates have a history of being an odd team to deal with.. it seems as if they go to great lengths to throw players away..or want the moon and the stars for a mediocre/second tier player. Huntington would be publicly castrated if he were to include one of their "huge" prospects in a deal for a SS not name Tulowitski (yes, this is an exaggeration...) even though Drooobs would vastly improve the Pirates heading into the 2013 season...
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 pm

Alomar and Mills both on staff.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:06 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Alomar and Mills both on staff.


And Steve Smith (thank God) and Bruce Fields are definitely out.

Need a new infield fielding instructor and new hitting coach.....Omar and Sarbaugh? :cool
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:30 am

Terry Francona is a good addition for the Indians, he brings professionalism, experience, baseball savvy and a winning culture. First saw Terry when he was a college senior playing against the Indians in a spring training exhibition game in 1980 and remember Tito playing in 1959 when he hit .359.

Terry, a great example of a phenomenal baseball mind, probably knows more about the finer points of baseball evaluation than Shapiro and Antonetti put togehter, so that is good. It can't hurt the situation.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:45 am

I'd love to see Sarbaugh get his shot. Francona could really put together a solid staff. There is still the possibility that Sandy lands else where once Boston, Toronto and Colorado get things settled.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:25 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'd love to see Sarbaugh get his shot. Francona could really put together a solid staff. There is still the possibility that Sandy lands else where once Boston, Toronto and Colorado get things settled.

Like to see Sandy stay also but he might have better opportunities elswhere. For no apparent reason I think he ends up back with the Tribe eventually.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:28 pm

We hardly knew ya, Sandy... good luck as the next manager of the Toronto Blue Jays!!
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:53 pm

Sarbaugh named the first base coach and infield coach. So with that.. we know Sandy, Mills, and Sarbaugh on the staff.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:53 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Sarbaugh named the first base coach and infield coach. So with that.. we know Sandy, Mills, and Sarbaugh on the staff.


Has Mills been named to the actual coaching staff? I thought in Bastians last update about the topic, Mills role was thought to be some kind of advisor/special assistant type.
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Re: Alomar vs. Francona - It's TF, with "opt-out"

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:12 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Sarbaugh named the first base coach and infield coach. So with that.. we know Sandy, Mills, and Sarbaugh on the staff.

Glad Sarby's still aboard. I'm really liking this staff so far. Puts the org in a good light to reward org guys, even in a new regime.
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