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So who do you like for the new manager?

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So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:24 pm

I was a fan of Manny Acta. I thought he breathed some life into the organization from the previous guy. However, his inability to find a way to shake the team out of extended losing streaks will earn him his pink slip. Hope STO uses him as a color man.

Here's how I see the candidates:

SANDY ALOMAR - The popular choice with many fans. He would certainly understand the challenge before him.
MIKE SARBAUGH - Has done everything there is to accomplish in the minor leagues. Probably knows the organization better than anyone. Would not excite the fans at all. Probably my pick.
TERRY FRANCONA - Won 2 World Series. Great with a veteran club. Would only come here for a contract that the Indians usually don't offer.
BOBBY VALENTINE - Might have a hard time finding manager job after Sox can him. Might have trouble staying awake.
MIKE HARGROVE - He's experienced. He's local. He's available. Probably more likely a bench coach if Sandy gets the job.
OMAR VIZQUEL - Darkhorse candidate. Definitely retiring and has said he wants to manage. Like Alomar, has no experience as a manager. But that's OK. Most of the players have little experience as players.

Who's your pick? Any other candidates?
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:06 am

A few names to add to the list (moreso than Mike Hargrove) - Bud Black (assuming San Diego decides to move in another direction itself) and Charles Nagy.

I think Wayne Kirby (former indian minor league coach and now 1b coach for Buck in Baltimore) will get an interview if the Tribe decides to look beyond Sandy Jr and Sarbaugh.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:48 am

I can't imagine Bobby Valentine being a candidate considering his interview with the Indians the last time made news for being a complete disaster, and his tenure in Boston is an even bigger catastrophe. He pretty much has to be considered a pariah at this point, and wouldn't have even been considered in Boston if Larry Lucchino hadn't been so hellbent on hiring his buddy.

I think it will either be Alomar or Sarbaugh. They'll admit that a rebuild is in order, and both of these guys already know the kids, and they'll tell us how he'll "develop along with the young core of the team". Alomar seems to show up on the shortlist of nearly everyone looking to hire a new manager. I seem to remember him basically saying that his dream job would be managing Cleveland to a championship, but that he knows there are only 30 such jobs out there and wouldn't pass up an opportunity elsewhere. I think there's a good chance Cleveland offers him the job, knowing he'll be gone if they don't. Is that I good idea? I don't know. I like Sandy, but I can also remember when other organizations were asking the Indians if they could interview Chris Antonetti for their open GM jobs. Personally, I think it's all musical chairs until they usher out the Shapiro era and his organizational philosophies.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:45 am

Sarbaugh would be my number 1. I think the Indians will go with a retread manager like Tom Trebblehorn or Larry Bowa though.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:16 am

1. Terry Francona
2. Sandy Alomar Jr.
3. Dave Martinez
4. Mike Sarbaugh
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:32 pm

I still say keep Acta for a year but if he is let go, Terry Francona would probably be number 1 on my list even if it's not likely. He does have ties to the Indians and worked as a special assistant to the GM in 2001 (the year Shapiro Assistant GM and taking over for Hart).

Part of who you'd pick to manage (if you fired Acta) would have to depend too though on what plan you want to take with the team. Are you going to rebuild?

I suggested this before Acta was hired, but if the Tribe decides to go real young and rebuild, I wouldn't mind seeing a guy like Hargrove brought in on a 1-2 year deal to manage with Sarbaugh promoted to 3B coach (please for the love of God fire Steve Smith!) or hitting coach. Let Sarby be groomed of sorts by Hargrove and eased into managing. If the team really struggles in 2013 and 2014 then Hargrove and shoulder that blame. Lets Sarby work with the young kids. This is similar to what the Indians did with a young Mike Hargrove back in the early 90s with John McNamara.

At the end of the day I think they keep Acta....though do think a guy like Alomar is a legit candidate. Still a bit disappointed we weren't able to land Roenicke....guessing too that the Tribe won't be able to hire their top candidate due to better jobs being open.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby danh8 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:22 pm

I like the idea of going outside the organization and bringing in new ideas, and methodology. Especially looking for those with ability and knack for developing kids, and bringing them along the right way. That being said, guys that interest me would be Dale Sveum or Pete Mackannin from Phillies organization ...Jose Oquendo would be smart ...Terry Francona doesn't interest me.. Others, Torey Lovullo, Ryne Sandberg, Gene Lamont, Mike Maddox...

If we stay within ... Sarbaugh is my clear favorite. Don't believe Sandy Alomar really offers much in style and approach differences than what we have with Acta, quite frankly. But, what he has going in his favor is that he will be a guy that will allow Antonnetti and Shapiro to have involvment with days to day managewrial decisions, which is always an important aspect with who they look for from a prospective managerial candidate. I mean, that's why Charlie Manuel didn't work well with them. He managed how he felt the team should be managed.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:51 am

Firing the manager is a bad idea if for no other reason than it distracts from the work that remains. Firing the manager has become a Cleveland tradition, promulgated by the likes of Seldom Right Ocker, Hoynes and other vultures.. It needs to stop.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:35 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Firing the manager is a bad idea if for no other reason than it distracts from the work that remains. Firing the manager has become a Cleveland tradition, promulgated by the likes of Seldom Right Ocker, Hoynes and other vultures.. It needs to stop.


I like Manny. But unfortunately he must be replaced at the end of the season. He was at the helm for one of the most complete collapses in baseball history. They won 5 games in August. He had to figure out a way, any way, to stop the bleeding; and didn't.
I've seen plenty of bad Indian teams over the decades. Rarely have I seen a team quit like this. I rid the organization of him, the coaches, and as many players as I could.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Firing the manager is a bad idea if for no other reason than it distracts from the work that remains. Firing the manager has become a Cleveland tradition, promulgated by the likes of Seldom Right Ocker, Hoynes and other vultures.. It needs to stop.


In the last 10 years Cleveland has fired 1 manager, not sure I'd call that a tradition.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:11 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Firing the manager is a bad idea if for no other reason than it distracts from the work that remains. Firing the manager has become a Cleveland tradition, promulgated by the likes of Seldom Right Ocker, Hoynes and other vultures.. It needs to stop.


I like Manny. But unfortunately he must be replaced at the end of the season. He was at the helm for one of the most complete collapses in baseball history. They won 5 games in August. He had to figure out a way, any way, to stop the bleeding; and didn't.
I've seen plenty of bad Indian teams over the decades. Rarely have I seen a team quit like this. I rid the organization of him, the coaches, and as many players as I could.


What could he possibly have done though besides pray that Bob Feller came down from heaven and onto the mound to pitch for this club? The pitching staff was just too terrible for any manager to win IMO.

Also disagree on the team quitting. Our run differential always suggested we were playing way over our heads.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:22 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Firing the manager is a bad idea if for no other reason than it distracts from the work that remains. Firing the manager has become a Cleveland tradition, promulgated by the likes of Seldom Right Ocker, Hoynes and other vultures.. It needs to stop.


I like Manny. But unfortunately he must be replaced at the end of the season. He was at the helm for one of the most complete collapses in baseball history. They won 5 games in August. He had to figure out a way, any way, to stop the bleeding; and didn't.
I've seen plenty of bad Indian teams over the decades. Rarely have I seen a team quit like this. I rid the organization of him, the coaches, and as many players as I could.


What could he possibly have done though because pray that Bob Feller came down from heaven and onto the mound to pitch for this club? The pitching staff was just too terrible for any manager to win IMO.

Also disagree on the team quitting. Our run differential always suggested we were playing way over our heads.


You manage each game like the 7th game of the World Series. You show urgency. You become very involved with each game, each at bat, each pitch. You grab the players attention. You or I could have done that. A 4A team would have won more because they would be thrilled to be in MLB.
If the 2012 Indians didn't quit, - I don't know what else you could call it. If they played over their heads in July, then they quit in August.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:33 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:You manage each game like the 7th game of the World Series. You show urgency. You become very involved with each game, each at bat, each pitch. You grab the players attention. You or I could have done that. A 4A team would have won more because they would be thrilled to be in MLB.
If the 2012 Indians didn't quit, - I don't know what else you could call it. If they played over their heads in July, then they quit in August.


No, you don't. You do that and you won't have a bullpen by May cause you'll have blown out every arm you have. A baseball season is a marathon and you have to treat it as such. Yes every game is important and every win/loss matters, but can't manage every game like their is no tomorrow. As fans sure we probably would have managed every game like that...and our team would have 120 losses by now.

As far as not knowing what to call it, it's called not having a lot of talent. You can say they quit in August (agree to disagree). If they played over their heads in July, they played below their capabilities in August (not quit). In the end things averaged out. They will be a 95 loss team. Looking at the pitching staff now I'd say 90 losses is about right.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:42 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:You manage each game like the 7th game of the World Series. You show urgency. You become very involved with each game, each at bat, each pitch. You grab the players attention. You or I could have done that. A 4A team would have won more because they would be thrilled to be in MLB.
If the 2012 Indians didn't quit, - I don't know what else you could call it. If they played over their heads in July, then they quit in August.


No, you don't. You do that and you won't have a bullpen by May cause you'll have blown out every arm you have. A baseball season is a marathon and you have to treat it as such. Yes every game is important and every win/loss matters, but can't manage every game like their is no tomorrow. As fans sure we probably would have managed every game like that...and our team would have 120 losses by now.

As far as not knowing what to call it, it's called not having a lot of talent. You can say they quit in August (agree to disagree). If they played over their heads in July, they played below their capabilities in August (not quit). In the end things averaged out. They will be a 95 loss team. Looking at the pitching staff now I'd say 90 losses is about right.


+1 on not managing every game like it was game 7

The team quit but I think they felt like their knees were cut out from under them by the FO. They played their butts off to be in contention at the end of July only to have mgmt not upgrade the team. I think that sapped the team of its energy. I agree Acta is gone but the blame has to be distributed more onto mgmt (which will probably skate after all of this). I think just adding a RH hitter because of the difference between a replacement hitter and say Duncan/Kotchman/Damon would have been significant. May not have been enough but it would have still given them a puncher's chance.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:56 pm

I have no real problem with how the Indians played through July 26th, (the night they beat Verlander). After that, they became disheartened, quit, whatever you want to call it, when they realized no help, and no changes were coming for the stretch drive.

After that, something had to be done to shake that team up to wake them up. Who cares if you blow up the bullpen then. They set a record for fewest wins in August anyway. Mike Sarbaugh would have found a way to win more games that month. His teams have 4A players as their foundation.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:14 pm

daingean wrote:+1 on not managing every game like it was game 7

The team quit but I think they felt like their knees were cut out from under them by the FO. They played their butts off to be in contention at the end of July only to have mgmt not upgrade the team. I think that sapped the team of its energy. I agree Acta is gone but the blame has to be distributed more onto mgmt (which will probably skate after all of this). I think just adding a RH hitter because of the difference between a replacement hitter and say Duncan/Kotchman/Damon would have been significant. May not have been enough but it would have still given them a puncher's chance.


We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. When your players get swept by a terrible Twins team heading into the deadline to go along with the worst pitching staff in baseball (or maybe it was 'only' 2nd worst) at the time then the players have themselves to blame for not giving the FO enough cause to make a big splash. I do agree though that Antonetti and the FO are more to blame for this season than Acta, but think the issues were from this winter, not this summer. Though in fairness, wasn't the best free agent winter we've seen. Guys like Cuddyer and Pena would have been upgrades but haven't had the best of seasons themelves. Obviously Willingham was that big miss but I still question whether he wanted to come here. Again though, agree that the blame should be on Antonetti moreso than Acta...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:+1 on not managing every game like it was game 7

The team quit but I think they felt like their knees were cut out from under them by the FO. They played their butts off to be in contention at the end of July only to have mgmt not upgrade the team. I think that sapped the team of its energy. I agree Acta is gone but the blame has to be distributed more onto mgmt (which will probably skate after all of this). I think just adding a RH hitter because of the difference between a replacement hitter and say Duncan/Kotchman/Damon would have been significant. May not have been enough but it would have still given them a puncher's chance.


We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. When your players get swept by a terrible Twins team heading into the deadline to go along with the worst pitching staff in baseball (or maybe it was 'only' 2nd worst) at the time then the players have themselves to blame for not giving the FO enough cause to make a big splash. I do agree though that Antonetti and the FO are more to blame for this season than Acta, but think the issues were from this winter, not this summer. Though in fairness, wasn't the best free agent winter we've seen. Guys like Cuddyer and Pena would have been upgrades but haven't had the best of seasons themelves. Obviously Willingham was that big miss but I still question whether he wanted to come here. Again though, agree that the blame should be on Antonetti moreso than Acta...


Agreed on the winter. I was giving CA until the trading deadline to redeam himself for his poor winter. I will say the team was still in contention at the break despite the Twins series. In Cleveland, pennent runs are not common and you need to take advantage of them when you have a chance. I give a pass on last September's collapse because basically the whole team was on the DL. But this was the self described "Window of Contention"....if you're gonna wiff in the off season and are still within fighting range at the deadline, you have to do something.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:35 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:+1 on not managing every game like it was game 7

The team quit but I think they felt like their knees were cut out from under them by the FO. They played their butts off to be in contention at the end of July only to have mgmt not upgrade the team. I think that sapped the team of its energy. I agree Acta is gone but the blame has to be distributed more onto mgmt (which will probably skate after all of this). I think just adding a RH hitter because of the difference between a replacement hitter and say Duncan/Kotchman/Damon would have been significant. May not have been enough but it would have still given them a puncher's chance.


We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. When your players get swept by a terrible Twins team heading into the deadline to go along with the worst pitching staff in baseball (or maybe it was 'only' 2nd worst) at the time then the players have themselves to blame for not giving the FO enough cause to make a big splash. I do agree though that Antonetti and the FO are more to blame for this season than Acta, but think the issues were from this winter, not this summer. Though in fairness, wasn't the best free agent winter we've seen. Guys like Cuddyer and Pena would have been upgrades but haven't had the best of seasons themelves. Obviously Willingham was that big miss but I still question whether he wanted to come here. Again though, agree that the blame should be on Antonetti moreso than Acta...


Agreed on the winter. I was giving CA until the trading deadline to redeam himself for his poor winter. I will say the team was still in contention at the break despite the Twins series. In Cleveland, pennent runs are not common and you need to take advantage of them when you have a chance. I give a pass on last September's collapse because basically the whole team was on the DL. But this was the self described "Window of Contention"....if you're gonna wiff in the off season and are still within fighting range at the deadline, you have to do something.


Personally think Antonetti and the front office just realized this team couldn't compete and making a trade that would only further cripple the organization was a bad move. Think the wrong moves were last summer (Ubaldo) and this winter (not doing much). Those failures really made doing nothing at the deadline with this team the right decision IMO.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby ironmike » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:08 pm

Hermie, what? What about the past 10 years?
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:50 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Personally think Antonetti and the front office just realized this team couldn't compete and making a trade that would only further cripple the organization was a bad move. Think the wrong moves were last summer (Ubaldo) and this winter (not doing much). Those failures really made doing nothing at the deadline with this team the right decision IMO.


Just my opinion but getting a RH bat for LF/1B would have improved the team considerable considering who we had manning those 2 positions (the difference would have been considerable). Plus we don't have to compete with the Yankees or Natinals but the Tiggers and the Chi-Sux for the division title. We could have moved a A/A+ middle infielder as we have a glut of them (maybe more than we have slots for at those levels). Not saying moving Lindor or Paulino. We may not have gotten a stud but if we were willing to take on $$$ we could have gotten something useful. I still think anytime you are within striking distance of 1st at the end of July you have to make a reasonable effort because #1 most of our prized prospects will flame out and #2 pennent chases are uncommon on the north coast.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:49 am

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Personally think Antonetti and the front office just realized this team couldn't compete and making a trade that would only further cripple the organization was a bad move. Think the wrong moves were last summer (Ubaldo) and this winter (not doing much). Those failures really made doing nothing at the deadline with this team the right decision IMO.


Just my opinion but getting a RH bat for LF/1B would have improved the team considerable considering who we had manning those 2 positions (the difference would have been considerable). Plus we don't have to compete with the Yankees or Natinals but the Tiggers and the Chi-Sux for the division title. We could have moved a A/A+ middle infielder as we have a glut of them (maybe more than we have slots for at those levels). Not saying moving Lindor or Paulino. We may not have gotten a stud but if we were willing to take on $$$ we could have gotten something useful. I still think anytime you are within striking distance of 1st at the end of July you have to make a reasonable effort because #1 most of our prized prospects will flame out and #2 pennent chases are uncommon on the north coast.


The mythical trading deadline acquisition of the panacea for the Cleveland Indians aside, how would you like to be the Los Angeles Dodgers?.. Gaining a new commitment of over $ 85 MM per season only to go home the same day as the Indians.. Trading deadline deals are supposed to kick a team over the top in their quest to reach the Playoffs.. The Dodgers have gone 11-17 since the big trades were completed and now have only the bills to show for their "going for it".. See the Milwaukee Brewers a few years back for the same kind of deadline deal.. As Hermie has correctly pointed out, getting that extra guy.. seldom works out and wouldn't have for the Indians in 2012. CA was correct in his comments: The improvement for this club has to come from the guys who are already here. We can talk about the Johnny Damon's and Aaron Freaking Cunningham's or Shelly Duncan's all day, but none of these guys "improved" any part of their own games, let alone the synergy of the team. It's pretty clear, the guys acquired at the trading deadline are a lot like free agents: An over paid and under delivering group, overall. The emotions say: "...make a deal!!..", "... make a deal!!!!.." The truth and facts say otherwise..

And it doesn't matter if it's this July's trading deadline (2012) or whatever idiot notion comes from something that happened ten years ago...as if that is in anyway salient...
.
.
.
.
BTW.. I don't get the Reds comparison story.. pitchers v pitchers.. hitters v hitters.. etc. makes no sense.. Can someone provide any insight into what is being accomplished/targeted/defined by these stories?...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:09 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
The mythical trading deadline acquisition of the panacea for the Cleveland Indians aside, how would you like to be the Los Angeles Dodgers?.. Gaining a new commitment of over $ 85 MM per season only to go home the same day as the Indians.. Trading deadline deals are supposed to kick a team over the top in their quest to reach the Playoffs.. The Dodgers have gone 11-17 since the big trades were completed and now have only the bills to show for their "going for it".. See the Milwaukee Brewers a few years back for the same kind of deadline deal.. As Hermie has correctly pointed out, getting that extra guy.. seldom works out and wouldn't have for the Indians in 2012. CA was correct in his comments: The improvement for this club has to come from the guys who are already here. We can talk about the Johnny Damon's and Aaron Freaking Cunningham's or Shelly Duncan's all day, but none of these guys "improved" any part of their own games, let alone the synergy of the team. It's pretty clear, the guys acquired at the trading deadline are a lot like free agents: An over paid and under delivering group, overall. The emotions say: "...make a deal!!..", "... make a deal!!!!.." The truth and facts say otherwise..

And it doesn't matter if it's this July's trading deadline (2012) or whatever idiot notion comes from something that happened ten years ago...as if that is in anyway salient...
.
.
.
.
BTW.. I don't get the Reds comparison story.. pitchers v pitchers.. hitters v hitters.. etc. makes no sense.. Can someone provide any insight into what is being accomplished/targeted/defined by these stories?...


And staying status quo with Kotchman manning 1B and Duncan/Cunningham/Damon patrolling LF with their below replacement player averages (OPS and all) made the team competitive? I wasn't clammoring for a blockbuster just improvement and a mind set that we are going to give the Tiggers and Chi-Sux a run for their money. I understand the economics that we have to improve through the player development phase. My biggest beef with the FO was not getting anyone worth a damn in the off season but I gave them till the deadline to make ammends. Unfortunately we only got scrubs (I believed Kotchman was a waste because of what I saw with my own eyes ..... regardless of what his stats said). In fact, the only off season acquisition that delivered even a little was Lowe (had 2 good months).

Those Reds comparisons are to compare the team to a winner. Unfortunately, the reality is that the differences between 1B and LF are enormous despite the position player comparisons being close. I am also one that prefers to compare batting order position by position than fielding position because that paints a more accurate picture. Then compare the whole team defensively.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:37 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
The mythical trading deadline acquisition of the panacea for the Cleveland Indians aside, how would you like to be the Los Angeles Dodgers?.. Gaining a new commitment of over $ 85 MM per season only to go home the same day as the Indians.. Trading deadline deals are supposed to kick a team over the top in their quest to reach the Playoffs.. The Dodgers have gone 11-17 since the big trades were completed and now have only the bills to show for their "going for it".. See the Milwaukee Brewers a few years back for the same kind of deadline deal.. As Hermie has correctly pointed out, getting that extra guy.. seldom works out and wouldn't have for the Indians in 2012. CA was correct in his comments: The improvement for this club has to come from the guys who are already here. We can talk about the Johnny Damon's and Aaron Freaking Cunningham's or Shelly Duncan's all day, but none of these guys "improved" any part of their own games, let alone the synergy of the team. It's pretty clear, the guys acquired at the trading deadline are a lot like free agents: An over paid and under delivering group, overall. The emotions say: "...make a deal!!..", "... make a deal!!!!.." The truth and facts say otherwise..

And it doesn't matter if it's this July's trading deadline (2012) or whatever idiot notion comes from something that happened ten years ago...as if that is in anyway salient...
.
.
.
.
BTW.. I don't get the Reds comparison story.. pitchers v pitchers.. hitters v hitters.. etc. makes no sense.. Can someone provide any insight into what is being accomplished/targeted/defined by these stories?...


And staying status quo with Kotchman manning 1B and Duncan/Cunningham/Damon patrolling LF with their below replacement player averages (OPS and all) made the team competitive? I wasn't clammoring for a blockbuster just improvement and a mind set that we are going to give the Tiggers and Chi-Sux a run for their money. I understand the economics that we have to improve through the player development phase. My biggest beef with the FO was not getting anyone worth a damn in the off season but I gave them till the deadline to make ammends. Unfortunately we only got scrubs (I believed Kotchman was a waste because of what I saw with my own eyes ..... regardless of what his stats said). In fact, the only off season acquisition that delivered even a little was Lowe (had 2 good months).

Those Reds comparisons are to compare the team to a winner. Unfortunately, the reality is that the differences between 1B and LF are enormous despite the position player comparisons being close. I am also one that prefers to compare batting order position by position than fielding position because that paints a more accurate picture. Then compare the whole team defensively.

By repeating the comment about not improving the team synergy or individual performance, from the group of players including Kotchman/Damon/Duncan/Freaking-Cunningham.. it's nice to see you absolutely agree with the comment as presented. These guys sucked.. They didn't make the Indians more competitive... They've added nothing. The individual performance improvement as guys already here didn't happen....
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:29 pm

daingean wrote:And staying status quo with Kotchman manning 1B and Duncan/Cunningham/Damon patrolling LF with their below replacement player averages (OPS and all) made the team competitive? I wasn't clammoring for a blockbuster just improvement and a mind set that we are going to give the Tiggers and Chi-Sux a run for their money. I understand the economics that we have to improve through the player development phase. My biggest beef with the FO was not getting anyone worth a damn in the off season but I gave them till the deadline to make ammends. Unfortunately we only got scrubs (I believed Kotchman was a waste because of what I saw with my own eyes ..... regardless of what his stats said). In fact, the only off season acquisition that delivered even a little was Lowe (had 2 good months).

Those Reds comparisons are to compare the team to a winner. Unfortunately, the reality is that the differences between 1B and LF are enormous despite the position player comparisons being close. I am also one that prefers to compare batting order position by position than fielding position because that paints a more accurate picture. Then compare the whole team defensively.


Even if the Tribe had gotten Mike Trout or Miggy Cabrera at the deadline, they are still at best 3rd place team in this division. Their pitching staff is beyond horrible. 13th in the AL ahead of the mighty Twins. While you are not wrong on the Reds and the difference between 1B and LF....the Reds pitching staff ranks 3rd in the NL this year. If the Tribe pitched like that they'd have had a chance this year and probably would have been willing to make a deal. Unfortunately when you're #1 starter has an ERA around 5 and your #2 has an ERA over 5.5 you will have zero chance of winning no matter what you do in LF and 1B and no matter who your manager is. Cincinnatti is actually in the bottom half of the NL in offense (9th).


Actually brings up a good point...Reds and A's are two small market clubs that are in the playoffs (at the moment with the A's) and the Rays are right there in the thick after being in 3 of the last 4 years. How have they done it? Well the A's and Rays are ranked 1 and 2 in team pitching in the AL this year, and as mentioned the Reds are 3rd in the NL. Their offenses? A's are 11th in the AL and the Rays 10th, and again the Reds are only 9th in the NL, despite having one of the best records in baseball. Indians definitely needed an upgrade at 1B/LF this year (and 3B though that should hopefully come from Chiz), but if the pitching staff isn't VASTLY improved then this team is not even a .500 team. Don't care who they add on offense. Sorry for the rant but can't believe how bad this pitching has been this year....and only reinforcement really coming is Carrasco...if he can be counted on. Team needs to either make a big splash in the rotation or do a mini-fire sale as they can't compete in this league with the staff they have.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:42 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Even if the Tribe had gotten Mike Trout or Miggy Cabrera at the deadline, they are still at best 3rd place team in this division. Their pitching staff is beyond horrible. 13th in the AL ahead of the mighty Twins. While you are not wrong on the Reds and the difference between 1B and LF....the Reds pitching staff ranks 3rd in the NL this year. If the Tribe pitched like that they'd have had a chance this year and probably would have been willing to make a deal. Unfortunately when you're #1 starter has an ERA around 5 and your #2 has an ERA over 5.5 you will have zero chance of winning no matter what you do in LF and 1B and no matter who your manager is. Cincinnatti is actually in the bottom half of the NL in offense (9th).


Actually brings up a good point...Reds and A's are two small market clubs that are in the playoffs (at the moment with the A's) and the Rays are right there in the thick after being in 3 of the last 4 years. How have they done it? Well the A's and Rays are ranked 1 and 2 in team pitching in the AL this year, and as mentioned the Reds are 3rd in the NL. Their offenses? A's are 11th in the AL and the Rays 10th, and again the Reds are only 9th in the NL, despite having one of the best records in baseball. Indians definitely needed an upgrade at 1B/LF this year (and 3B though that should hopefully come from Chiz), but if the pitching staff isn't VASTLY improved then this team is not even a .500 team. Don't care who they add on offense. Sorry for the rant but can't believe how bad this pitching has been this year....and only reinforcement really coming is Carrasco...if he can be counted on. Team needs to either make a big splash in the rotation or do a mini-fire sale as they can't compete in this league with the staff they have.


The Indians have only had 7 playoff seasons + 2 other pennent runs in my 48 years on the planet. I just feel whenever you have a chance to compete, you go for it. I wasn't proposing to mortgage the farm just get a bat or 2 to give us a punchers chance. 6 of those playoff appearances were during a great run which may never be repeated. So our pitching has horrible stats. I don't think it is as bad as the stats. I love stats but they do not always paint an accurate picture of what is happening. Truth is we were within competing distance and the FO sat and played the fiddle. I am a believer in your gonna win 50 games, lose 50 games and the season is made in the other 62 games. So what if we get blown out in the 50 losses and our 50 wins are close ones. That is about what would have summed up the season up until July 21 or so. If we only want to go for it when everything is right.....we may never go for it again (considering the economic state of baseball).
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby ironmike » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:50 am

The new manager? A guy who will accept being on the low end of the payroll scale. When was the last time we hired a manager who was established? John McNamara? Alomar Jr. becomes the manager, they will try to take advantage of him being a Cleveland Indian during the era the only thing present day Indians fans can appreciate. Would not be surprised if Omar comes aboard on the staff or front office so they can craft a marketing message drawing upon past success and then sell more hope through their spin machine. It won't work and wear thin soon.

The organization is weak in many, many areas and lacks good baseball people and a leader. Until that changes, don't expect a playoff run like we had in the 90's.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:22 am

IF Alomar gets the job... who makes up his staff? Sarbaugh? Omar? Lovullo? Uhhh...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:28 am

A.Zajac wrote:IF Alomar gets the job... who makes up his staff? Sarbaugh? Omar? Lovullo? Uhhh...


Who knows but add Sandy Alomar Sr and Joel Skinner to your list.

Edit: and Tony Pena
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:29 pm

daingean wrote:The Indians have only had 7 playoff seasons + 2 other pennent runs in my 48 years on the planet. I just feel whenever you have a chance to compete, you go for it. I wasn't proposing to mortgage the farm just get a bat or 2 to give us a punchers chance. 6 of those playoff appearances were during a great run which may never be repeated. So our pitching has horrible stats. I don't think it is as bad as the stats. I love stats but they do not always paint an accurate picture of what is happening. Truth is we were within competing distance and the FO sat and played the fiddle. I am a believer in your gonna win 50 games, lose 50 games and the season is made in the other 62 games. So what if we get blown out in the 50 losses and our 50 wins are close ones. That is about what would have summed up the season up until July 21 or so. If we only want to go for it when everything is right.....we may never go for it again (considering the economic state of baseball).


I feel your pain as a Tribe fan as I'm sure most do. I agree that stats don't always portray the big pitcture but in the case of our pitching staff, I'd argue things were even worse than the numbers indicate. I'd say you'd have to go back to some of those terrible late 80s teams to find a rotation this bad/disappoiting for the Tribe. I get what you're saying about not selling the farm but I just don't see what the Tribe could have gotten without giving up a top prospect like Lindor (which sadly would be selling the farm almost). I wouldn't say only go for it when "everything" is right, but when everything is wrong like it was this year (bad offense, bad rotation, bad bullpen) then I say it was the right move not to go for it.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby timdav » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:57 am

Does it really matter THAT much who's manager if little else is done?

The big problem we all as fans have is, the team consistently pretends to contend. Every year they sign bargain-basement priced, marginal, fading, journeymen players so it gives the impression to the casual fan that they're really trying to win. The Indians believe the casual fan will buy the hype...and attend the games. So, they lately have been what I call pretend contenders.

It's like sticking your toes in a swimming pool without actually jumping in. You're playing it safe, even though it looks like you're really committed, but in fact you aren't.

Whether they do so because they are cheap and content with what profit they get, or simply are afraid to risk too many big moves is unknown. But, why they won't go to the wall to upgrade their farm system and get the very BEST scouts in baseball (the entire scouting staff might cost them about Sizemore made in 2012, if that)...well, that's a head shaker.


p.s.: The Indians bullpen in 2012 is the ONLY area of the team that was successful...IMHO.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Rocky55 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:46 am

timdav wrote:Does it really matter THAT much who's manager if little else is done?

The big problem we all as fans have is, the team consistently pretends to contend. Every year they sign bargain-basement priced, marginal, fading, journeymen players so it gives the impression to the casual fan that they're really trying to win. The Indians believe the casual fan will buy the hype...and attend the games. So, they lately have been what I call pretend contenders.

It's like sticking your toes in a swimming pool without actually jumping in. You're playing it safe, even though it looks like you're really committed, but in fact you aren't.

Whether they do so because they are cheap and content with what profit they get, or simply are afraid to risk too many big moves is unknown. But, why they won't go to the wall to upgrade their farm system and get the very BEST scouts in baseball (the entire scouting staff might cost them about Sizemore made in 2012, if that)...well, that's a head shaker.


p.s.: The Indians bullpen in 2012 is the ONLY area of the team that was successful...IMHO.

Afraid to risk too many big moves; afraid of what? Losing money, of course.They act like losing money for a couple of years will put them in the Poor House. What other risk is there? They already suck. They can't be afraid of suckage. That's de rigueur for this crowd. It's got to be money.

So what we need to know from them is what they expect as team owners. Actually, they should rightfully called custodians. They "own" & operate the franchise in a sort of trustee position. They can't move on a whim. Do they like being doormats? Are they still convinced, if they ever were, that this business model will actually produce good results? As an upbeat kind of guy I'd like to be hopeful but they can't keep going on like this. Possibly over the offseason they'll surprise us but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby danh8 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:47 am

daingean wrote:
+1 on not managing every game like it was game 7

The team quit but I think they felt like their knees were cut out from under them by the FO. They played their butts off to be in contention at the end of July only to have mgmt not upgrade the team. I think that sapped the team of its energy. I agree Acta is gone but the blame has to be distributed more onto mgmt (which will probably skate after all of this). I think just adding a RH hitter because of the difference between a replacement hitter and say Duncan/Kotchman/Damon would have been significant. May not have been enough but it would have still given them a puncher's chance.



I agree with your opinion that as a manager you don't mange like every game is the 7th game of the World Series... especially when you are managing a team of young kids your are looking to develop. The honest truth is you manage quite the opposite. You manage with an emphasis on patience, instruction, and development. Actually, ou never manage like it is the 7th game of the World Series until you are in the 7th game of the World Series to be deadly accurate.

This team's players had the same reaction to the front office and ownership's decision to keep all their cash in their pockets, and not make any moves to allow them to make a run at a playoff spot, as it had on the team's fanbase. It effectively popped the balloon of hope they had, and they felt betrayed by ownership and the front office. The team looked and played like they were totally deflated in the games immediately following the deadline, and they didnb't show any sign of life again until they got infused with a bunch of kids from the minors who weren't exposed to the huge letdown that encompassed the team following the inactivity at the deadline.

I honestly believe that the Dolan's are totally controlled by their need to profit on this team, and pay down the debt owed. Larry, getting older... I'm sure they are pressed to have their financial house in order in order to be able to sell eventually at a figure that won't decimate their family once he passes, and inheritance taxes force them to sell.

The Dolan's are operating this team in a manner financially, where they really appear to have no options but to run it as frugally as humanly possible due to the issues at hand with them, which we probably don't know a very good percentage of everything that is comprised ...but, when Larry Dolan dies, I don't see that family having the ability to remain... and the only way they can make this team attractive to any potential buyer is to have as clean a profit/loss statement as they can muster. And quite frankly, they seem to be achieving that aspect, because by all reports they are one of the most profitable team's..at least in the past two years..

I suspect that in the next few years we will have close to, if not clearly the lowest payroll in the entire league..
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:32 pm

I think if they had only added Willingham over the offseason... That was a monumental miss.
I hear Colorado is considering trading Michael Cuddyer maybe CA will offer them Ubaldo back :o

I'm afraid this whole Terry Francona thing will be a sham, were interested but just don't have the resources to put into the mgr. I'm sure he may be intrigued by the idea of coming to Cleveland but I just see other teams letting go off the mkt w/o making a serious run at him.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:17 pm

This is worth a read for anyone who hasn't yet.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/2012/09/ ... de-uptown/

Makes a lot of sense. Liked the explanation that the players soured on Acta because "They didn't feel that he stuck up for them enough on blown or controversial calls." Vindication after being taken to task when suggesting the same fault in Acta's managerial style in the "Radinsky Fired" thread. If you don't know who you are, look it up. I posted an equally asinine reply but deleted it.

Anyone who doesn't believe that players don't respect a coach/manager who doesn't have their backs on & off the field is either delusional or hasn't done much in sports.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby ironmike » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:56 am

Rocky, great article. Castrovince wrote, So that’s my unsolicited advice to Antonetti: Give Alomar his shot, and put the organizational emphasis elsewhere. Take the time you would have used to conduct that exhaustive skipper search and apply it to the other evaluations already taking place — evaluations of the scouting, drafting, development and injury prevention dynamics that put you in this hole in the first place.

My concern is this, although this is good advice. Are the guy(s) making these evaluations or decisions good enough. They are not baseball lifer's, got a problem with that. Our weakness in all of this is a bad business model, an owner who doesn't know how to hire the right people or won't pay them. In turn, these hires, hire other incompetent people and the foundation is never secure.

You can work harder than your competition, but if you are not smarter than them in a baseball sense, then you spin your wheels. Isn't that where we are?
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby timdav » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:05 am

Ironmike: Great post. Agree totally.

As a person who's been a Tribe fan for 5 decades, and who's worked in regional media for 4 decades....what you're saying is what every media reporter/writer/host I know has said privately for years.

Expecting most small-to-mid market baseball owners to go crazy and lose millions and millions of dollars every year isn't realistic...and is not going to happen most of the time.

But, the key decision makers...the top of every FO, and the scouting and development people simply must be the very best people you can find, as it's the small-to-mid market teams' only real shot at being competitive from year to year.

Really, it's more important to have a great president, GM, and scouts/development people than a single 10-million-dollar-a-year player.

One good-to-great player...or even a handful of very good players won't get the team deep in the playoffs on a consistent basis. For sure, that formula is not likely to earn a World Series ring.

With, however, a great front office/development people..you have a shot.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:50 am

Agreed, good piece by AC.

Ironmike what are your solutions? Just curious what you propose.

I agree entirely, there has to be a different way of doing things going forward. One thing for certain the on field product has been flat out awful. I understand the dynamics of Cleveland it's a hard small mkt. I get the fact the team is a business but at what point will they (Dolan) cost himself the team at the same time? Fans don't show bc of this three ring circus but at the same time, attendance is hurting and will be for a long time IMO.

Personally, I'd clean house. I like Brad Grant but he's worked with limited resources, he'd be one of the few keepers. I'd increase the scouting staff and the budget. And would heavily pursue international talent. Something that has been done recently a more aggressive approach to the intl mkt. The tribe not only has to identify intl talent but also talent in other org. that they would target acq. and drafting aggressively. While I'm not a fan of the Naquin pk this yr I have liked Grants aggressive approach overall and working within the budget he had I thought the Tribe brought in a talented group.
I'm not overly concerned with signing retreads but they have to make the team. Instead of this 4A team we have seen in Columbus for the past few yrs. IMO the Tribe has to be aggressive in getting talent here through trades, signing 2/3 solid FA per yr to 2 or 3 yr deals. At the same time the club needs a cpl young identifiable stars.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:07 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed, good piece by AC.

Ironmike what are your solutions? Just curious what you propose.

I agree entirely, there has to be a different way of doing things going forward. One thing for certain the on field product has been flat out awful. I understand the dynamics of Cleveland it's a hard small mkt. I get the fact the team is a business but at what point will they (Dolan) cost himself the team at the same time? Fans don't show bc of this three ring circus but at the same time, attendance is hurting and will be for a long time IMO.

Personally, I'd clean house. I like Brad Grant but he's worked with limited resources, he'd be one of the few keepers. I'd increase the scouting staff and the budget. And would heavily pursue international talent. Something that has been done recently a more aggressive approach to the intl mkt. The tribe not only has to identify intl talent but also talent in other org. that they would target acq. and drafting aggressively. While I'm not a fan of the Naquin pk this yr I have liked Grants aggressive approach overall and working within the budget he had I thought the Tribe brought in a talented group.
I'm not overly concerned with signing retreads but they have to make the team. Instead of this 4A team we have seen in Columbus for the past few yrs. IMO the Tribe has to be aggressive in getting talent here through trades, signing 2/3 solid FA per yr to 2 or 3 yr deals. At the same time the club needs a cpl young identifiable stars.


The AC piece is somewhat a "broad brush" stroke with limited information (I disagree with Tory Lovullo assessment as a team of Sandy and Sarby would be vastly superior). The direction of the team, based on the front office/ownership group being better, means everything and nothing at the same time.. that is, you can interpret it to mean "X" when X is completely undefined..

For Example: Go get the best scouts and baseball people there are.. While sounding great and 'sort of' the panacea for what ails this club.. it's a pretty meaningless comment other than to pander to the alleged 'deep' baseball fan's desire.. NOW, If the comment was, go get Matt Arnold & RJ Harrison along with Carlos Alphonso, Sam Geaney, Dan Feinstein and Eric Kubota... then we'd have something.. But, we don't..

Or this latest example: "Go make aggressive trades that brings talent / stars!" uh?. who is this exactly? Did you mention by going waaaaaaaaaaaaay out on a limb to "get" Andrew McCutchen (who is neither available nor will be?.. )

BTW, the 2/3 FA's each year will amount to 2/3 FA's each year that will be over paid and under perform if statistics bear out. The FA Market has been a long term disappointment and should be AVOIDED unless the Indians find themselves in the same position the Tigers did: VMart going down with a severe knee injury w/ Prince & Mike Illitch's money sitting right there !.. (read: not happening in Cleveland)...

What we have is the usual / normal / same / similar refrain found it so many "solutions": Nothing definitive other that whatever the Indians WILL DO has to be different from what the Indians HAVE DONE, because what has been done isn't working out..

And just to be clear: Comments were made, before the fact, about:

Yoenis Cespedes worked out...
Yasel Puig appears to be working out..
Willingham would still look good in LF...
Lucas Giolito, now recovering from TJ Surgery, is still better than ANYONE the Indians selected in the latest draft...

These are examples of what "should have been" done.. There are many many more..
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:51 pm

I think I'd prefer Mike Sarbaugh with Sandy myself. I lack any confidence they get it done with Francona, seems like more of the same. However, I agree with AC the Tribe needs to settle this qkly and move on.

Also, I've repeatedly mentioned trying to sign guys like Sanchez, Napoli and Villanueva. On the other side trying to flip Chris Perez and Choo for some now talent and a legit prospect or two...need I exhaust the convesation any more? I don't think we'll see the rebuild this system needs. But we could see Mastersona and ACab moved at some point in the yr, which isn't really saying much---but there could be somewhat of an influx of talent or at least some moving pieces coming in / out.

Btw, signing 2/3 FA per yr would not equate to over paying. Are FA generally overpaid? Absolutely but there are also deals out there every yr. the point is more for the team to identify who is going to give Cody Ross / Ryan Doumit production for the price. Ideally, the team will be using FA to add supplemental pieces. Drafting, intl scouting and scouting other org. for talent should be the primarily means by which this org. adds talent. And the scouting dept should be bolstered with cash and personnel in my opinion.

A few names I think the Tribe should at least look into this offseason...
Mike Napoli, Anibal Sanchez, JP Howell, Scott Hairston, Carlos Villanueva.
I think 2/3 of these guys would go a long way into improving this team short term.

No matter, Alomar, Francona or whomever should have some creative influence on the roster, more so Francona if they are serious about getting him in here.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:28 pm

Not sure this goes here but it was linked in Castro's other post.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/2012/09/ ... y-with-me/

If this doesn't feed the frustration, nothing will.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:14 am

Rocky55 wrote:Not sure this goes here but it was linked in Castro's other post.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/2012/09/ ... y-with-me/

If this doesn't feed the frustration, nothing will.


Great posting.. but it really doesn't feed frustration.. What it says is there is a path within the framework of the Indians budget that makes all of the above possible...not exactly probable, but, possible.. It also shows that the 'talent' evaluation can be soooo skewed that a player of Mike Trout's ability can be passed by nearly half the major league teams..with only the Angels "settling" for their second choice in the first round..

BTW.. each of the mentioned trades.. were not what could be / should be considered 'outlandish'.. like the purported idiocy of ".. go get Andrew McCutchen.." or "..go get guys who will make the Indians score 850 runs..." thereby eliminating the need to have a stellar pitching staff.. only one team has been able to break the 800 run mark.. ONLY one...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:24 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think I'd prefer Mike Sarbaugh with Sandy myself. I lack any confidence they get it done with Francona, seems like more of the same. However, I agree with AC the Tribe needs to settle this qkly and move on.

Also, I've repeatedly mentioned trying to sign guys like Sanchez, Napoli and Villanueva. On the other side trying to flip Chris Perez and Choo for some now talent and a legit prospect or two...need I exhaust the convesation any more? I don't think we'll see the rebuild this system needs. But we could see Mastersona and ACab moved at some point in the yr, which isn't really saying much---but there could be somewhat of an influx of talent or at least some moving pieces coming in / out.

Btw, signing 2/3 FA per yr would not equate to over paying. Are FA generally overpaid? Absolutely but there are also deals out there every yr. the point is more for the team to identify who is going to give Cody Ross / Ryan Doumit production for the price. Ideally, the team will be using FA to add supplemental pieces. Drafting, intl scouting and scouting other org. for talent should be the primarily means by which this org. adds talent. And the scouting dept should be bolstered with cash and personnel in my opinion.

A few names I think the Tribe should at least look into this offseason...
Mike Napoli, Anibal Sanchez, JP Howell, Scott Hairston, Carlos Villanueva.
I think 2/3 of these guys would go a long way into improving this team short term.

No matter, Alomar, Francona or whomever should have some creative influence on the roster, more so Francona if they are serious about getting him in here.


Let's take this response one point at a time.. Agree with the Sarby/Alomar duo.. No question that Sarby has earned his way to consideration.. The only question that might remain is if Sandy would take the promotion of Sarby as disrespecting his efforts as a potential ML coach.. It's a very personal situation...

Napoli.. absolutely.. He's the Willingham of the 2013 FA season.. Villanueva.. would love to add him if for no other reason that he's not a head case.. not coming off injury.. not coming off suspension for identity fraud.. not a lot of things.. What he is, though, is a damn fine young major league / SP.. Sanchez.. maybe not.. ditto with Hairston and Thurston Howell the third..

Regarding the signing of FA's: It's still a crap shoot.. Good fortune says a team will come across the Cody Ross's or Ryan Doumit's from time to time.. but the majority of the FA acquisitions, you get Derek Lowe. (yes hermie, I know that Lowe wasn't a FA..it's an example of his performance..not an example of the transaction). "okay" in spots to "spectacular" in others.. but, at the bottom of the ledger, a failed use of scarce resources..

..Race horses?....never mind...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby ironmike » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:25 pm

Rocky55, read the second blog. Plays to the fact poor baseball evalutors making poor decisions in the area of trades, free agents and drafting.

Get ready for more, the same people who made those mistakes are still in place.

I know one thing, the Indians spin machine has been disengaged and rightfully so.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:43 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Not sure this goes here but it was linked in Castro's other post.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/2012/09/ ... y-with-me/

If this doesn't feed the frustration, nothing will.


Does feed my frustration, but not in that these things didn't happen (though that is frustrating) but that all this article does is further alienate fans from the team by making it sound like all of these things were possible and things that the front office screwed up on.

Clayton Kershaw was never on the table for CC, yet this blog article makes it sound like the Tribe turned down such an offer to get LaPorta. The pitcher/prospect being rumored from the Dodgers was James McDonald, not Kershaw who was already in the big leagues pitching for the Dodgers when CC was dealt. There'd have been riots outside of Dodger stadium if they dealt their young phenom. Castro also says that LA was where most thought CC was going to end up...but this too is only kinda true. Most thought the Dodgers were a great fit but the major money issues the Dodgers had led most at the time to believe they wouldn't be able to sign him. Heck, there was more talk of CC going to SF than LA. The Dodgers were being so conservative with cash that they were willing to give us Santana and Meloan for Blake if we covered his salary...2 guys that were likely to be involved in a CC to LA deal anyways. Also according to reports at the time the best pitching prospect being thrown around for CC was Carlos Carrasco of the Phillies.


Injuries happen and they obviously suck. Oh to dream how Miller would look fully healthy without any injuries. Don't like how he dreamed that but yet apparently Hafner and Grady are still people he dreamed were injuried. Castro also fails to mention that he is dreaming that Victor doesn't blow out his knee and miss the entire 2012 season like he did for the Tigers. And Jed Lowrie couldn't even play 100 games this year....yet he makes is sound like we failed not get him to start after dealing Cabrera for an injured 1B...

The draft stuff has been frustrating and that I agree has to improve. Trout would look amazing on the Tribe...he'd look great on all the other teams that passed him over too. The jury is still out on Sale but obviously he'd have been nice in a Tribe uni now...though Jon Hart thought the same thing of Jaret Wright after 1997 and wouldn't deal him for Pedro Martinez...

Some of these moves definitely were in the realm of possible and probably should have happened in hindsight like Willingham...but getting Rodney? c'mon. Sure he'd have been better than Perez, but you don't see baseball teams dealign their young closer to go out and sign an aging closer who struggled. It worked out for the Rays but the Tribe did not screw up there like this article is making fans believe they did. Definitely think the Tribe failed to build this team over the winter but this article was just way, way over the top and such a fantasy it's laughable (even more laughable than the Tribe drafting over the past 20 years)...
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby timdav » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Heard the Chris Antonetti on-air interview on WKNR this morning.

CA sounded a bit less enthusiastic...a bit beat-up. He did mention and imply they would attempt to make significant changes to the major league roster this offseaon. Why? The existing roster, per CA....didn't play well together.

Rizzo asked CA if the Dolans would have more money to spend this off-season. CA said yes...but said he really didn't yet know how much extra money that'd be.

Bottom line is...this class of free agents is said by many to be the worst in a decade....so, there's not much out there in the FA arena. The farm system has nobody ready to move up to the majors who isn't already on the roster. So, the only way left to really try to improve is via trades....and that means a temporary step backward for hopefully a major step forwards in a couple seasons.

It would seem Chris Perez & Choo are as good as gone...Perez because the bullpen is the deepest part of the big league team and he's something of value to trade, and Choo because he'll be gone after '13 any way. But, maybe Asdrubal Cabrera and one piece in the bullpen (Joe Smith?) could be moved as well.

If that happens...for the sake of the Indians organization and the Dolans 323-million-dollar investment...the FO simply can't afford to blow any off-season trades like the CC, Cliff Lee, and Victor trades. And, we're not even talking about upgrading the quality of our amateur scouting staff!

The FO has a TON on their off-season plates. Let's hope to heck they know what they're doing...or rapidly figure out how to do so. A very critical, sensitive point in Cleveland Indians history. Will the Tribe move back towards the 1990's, or back to the bad old days of the 60's/70's/and 80's?????
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:55 pm

timdav wrote:Heard the Chris Antonetti on-air interview on WKNR this morning.

Bottom line is...this class of free agents is said by many to be the worst in a decade....so, there's not much out there in the FA arena. The farm system has nobody ready to move up to the majors who isn't already on the roster. So, the only way left to really try to improve is via trades....and that means a temporary step backward for hopefully a major step forwards in a couple seasons.


This team hasn't been a player in the major FA market but the lower second and third tiers so a poor FA market doesn't really change much. Other than Robbie Alomar and Wayne Garland, what other majors have they signed? (Keith Hernandez? Eddie Murray? Orel Hershiser? Dennis Martinez? - I'd say all of those were in the second tier) I really don't see us in on Hamilton, Bourne, or any other top of the line guys.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby timdav » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:07 pm

OK. Game 162 in the 2012 season just ended with another Indians loss.

The Indians organization's problems aren't just an August, 2012 collapse. The quality of the organization has been in decline and has performed fair-to-so so in most of the 13 seasons since the Dolans bought the team.

Consistently over the Dolan's tenure has been marginal major and minor league talent evaluation by the scouting department and front office has lead to a minor league system that's as poor as it's been since the late 1990's, mostly marginal to poor major trades results, and mostly bad free agent choices.

Bottom line is: the people making the most critical decisions and have hired most of the team's on-field players & managers/coaches/scouts have for the most part failed on every level.

In what world does keeping those very same failed upper management people improve this organization????? How many years does this organization have to stink before the owners wake up? Their 323-million-dollar investment is at risk.

And they wonder why so many of us are fed up and angry.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:35 pm

daingean wrote:
timdav wrote:Heard the Chris Antonetti on-air interview on WKNR this morning.

Bottom line is...this class of free agents is said by many to be the worst in a decade....so, there's not much out there in the FA arena. The farm system has nobody ready to move up to the majors who isn't already on the roster. So, the only way left to really try to improve is via trades....and that means a temporary step backward for hopefully a major step forwards in a couple seasons.


This team hasn't been a player in the major FA market but the lower second and third tiers so a poor FA market doesn't really change much. Other than Robbie Alomar and Wayne Garland, what other majors have they signed? (Keith Hernandez? Eddie Murray? Orel Hershiser? Dennis Martinez? - I'd say all of those were in the second tier) I really don't see us in on Hamilton, Bourne, or any other top of the line guys.


Your point is valid but you did miss one guy: Black Jack McDowell. Like it or not he was the top starter on the market after the 1995 season. Sadly the tank was a lot closer to empty than anyone (including Black Jack) realized.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby Edible14 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:08 am

Rocky55 wrote:Not sure this goes here but it was linked in Castro's other post.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/2012/09/ ... y-with-me/

If this doesn't feed the frustration, nothing will.


The thing that gets me most with that article is with the pitching. Again, pitching was the biggest problem this year, and you look at the dream scenario and you see that Miller was already hurt, Kershaw was never on the market to begin with, Felix Doubront was never mentioned in any trades. Really, if you're going there, you might as well imagine Knapp, Carrasco or Rondon never getting hurt. The Indians ended up so screwed on pitching, that even if you added Chris Sale this year, they'd still be awful.
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Re: So who do you like for the new manager?

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:35 am

MadThinker88 wrote:
daingean wrote:
timdav wrote:Heard the Chris Antonetti on-air interview on WKNR this morning.

Bottom line is...this class of free agents is said by many to be the worst in a decade....so, there's not much out there in the FA arena. The farm system has nobody ready to move up to the majors who isn't already on the roster. So, the only way left to really try to improve is via trades....and that means a temporary step backward for hopefully a major step forwards in a couple seasons.


This team hasn't been a player in the major FA market but the lower second and third tiers so a poor FA market doesn't really change much. Other than Robbie Alomar and Wayne Garland, what other majors have they signed? (Keith Hernandez? Eddie Murray? Orel Hershiser? Dennis Martinez? - I'd say all of those were in the second tier) I really don't see us in on Hamilton, Bourne, or any other top of the line guys.


Your point is valid but you did miss one guy: Black Jack McDowell. Like it or not he was the top starter on the market after the 1995 season. Sadly the tank was a lot closer to empty than anyone (including Black Jack) realized.


touche - try to forge Black Jack....
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