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Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

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Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:05 pm

Witnessed lousy baseball in Cleveland going all the way back to Joe Adcock, Kirby Farrell, Bobby Bragan. Alvin Dark and his curse. Then when least expecting it, it all changed in 1994 but it took 8 years from the leadership of a genuine baseball executive to get there and repair all the previous damage.

Compare this same scenerio to the state of the Indians in 2012 now going into the 2013 season. For those who get it, it is a frightful reality. Keep in mind the guys in charge presently have destroyed the Indians most productive tool, the farm system.

"In baseball, your farm system is really your lifeblood." Herb Score

Chapter 9 from Endless Summers - The Fall and Rise of the Cleveland Indians by Jack Torry

Let the other general managers squander their money and energy in search of a quick fix: Hank Peters built his baseball teams carefully and thoroughly by hiring the best scouts, identifying and signing the brightest young players, and choosing the wisest managers.

"I believe in consistency, patience and fairness," he explained. He would methodically chart a long-term course and patiently stick with it.

He believed baseball teams should operate within their means. "You project your future attendance, then apply it to a budget and payroll," Peters would say. He was proud his teams usually operated in the black and could not conceal his contempt for impatient owners who lavished millions on elderly free agents. "Baseball is better off," he said in the early years of free agency,"when certain owners learn that it's not the worst thing in the world to lose a player to free agency and other owners learn it's not the best thing in the world to sign a free agent."

In his careful manner, Hank Peters had little use for flamboyant trades. "You can only do so much with trades," he said. Instead, like Hank Greenberg, he firmly believed that successful major league teams grew from a productive minor league farm system. It was a slow process, he admitted, but it always worked.

Peters the ideal organization man, he surrounded himself with bright, young executives. "I believe in delegation of authority," he once said. "I don't believe in one man shows." Those that worked for Peters admired him, and it was easy to see why. After the Orioles won the 1983 American League playoffs from the White Sox, a reporter from the Washington Post congratulated Peters for the decision to place Tito Landrum on the team's post-season roster. Landrum hit a key home run during the series. "It was an organizational decision," Peters explained. "I had little to do with it. I'd never even seen Landrum in a uniform when he got here."

That attitude often deprived Peters of public credit for his successes. When the Oakland A's swept to three consecutive AL pennants in the 1970's, they did so with the players scouted, signed and developed by an organization created a decade earlier by Hank Peters. Oakland owner, Charles O. Finley earned raves for building the A's, but those in baseball realized that Peters "quietly knew how to spot and procure talent."

This was the man Dick Jacobs set his sights on in the summer of 1986. Dick Jacobs and his brother, David, had just purchased the Indians for $35 million and they wanted a talented executive to scrupulously protect that investment, someone who would carefully construct a winning organization while keeping a careful eye on the payroll.

When Peters was fired by the Orioles Dick Jacobs moved quickly to land Peters. Peters had his doubts about returning to Cleveland. He was 63 years old and lived in a comfortable new townhouse in Baltimore. He did not need a job. Why make a move when he was so close to retiring?

But Dick Jacobs persisted, and persauded Peters to fly to Cleveland for a chat. He told Peters he and his brother had plenty of money to run a baseball team, but they needed an experienced baseball man to show them how[/b]. He offered Peters a three year contract with a fourth year option.

In his typical way, Peters counseled patience, "Hey, in three years you're not going to turn things around completely." Peters warned Jacobs. [b]"You can get a start on it."
Peters would recruit a new farm director, a new scouting director, new scouts and new minor league managers. There would be no quick fixes. Peters said. Echoing the warning he gave to Vernon Stouffer, Indians owner, Peters sat that "the things we start now aren't going to be evident for a few years. It is going to take a littl time for these fellows to develop. You go through trial and error. When you got that flow of talent, you'll be a successful team."

That was fine Jacobs responded. On his second visit to Cleveland, Peters agreed to take the job. "It's his ballclub to run," Dick Jacobs said in one of his rare appearances at a news conference. Hank Peters was relaxed. His first piece of advice to reporters was predictable: "Be patient."

Hank Peters knew his own patience would be tested in Cleveland. All that he predicted to Vernon Stouffer in 1970 had come true. The Indians lost 101 games in 1987 and finished last for the fourth time in in seven years. Team owners lost millions of dollars and, until Dick Jacobs bought the team, ownerships had no interest in bebuilding Hank Greenberg's cherished player development system.

While with the A's Finley wanted to spend money on young players, and Peters patiently created the scouting orgnization to find them. The pitchers included; Lew Krause, Catfish Hunter, Jim Nash, Paul Lindblad, Chuck Dobson, John "Blue Moon" Odom. Position players included; Campy Campaneris, Joe Rudi, Dave Duncan, Sal Bando, and Rick Monday. When Alvin Dark took over as manager of the A's in 1965 he realized he had a potential All-Star team at every position from the farm system.

When he came to Cleveland under Vernon Stouffer, Stouffer lost $12 million in his business and cut the Indians farm system budget to nothing. Peters then went on to the Orioles to win numerous pennants with the likes of players like Bobby Grich, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Paul Blair, Don Baylor, Wayne Garland, Boog Powell, Mark Belanger and Doyle Alexander all players developed in the Oriole system. Unlike the Yankees, Dodgers and Angels the Orioles won with a limited budget.

The moral of this brief excerpt, do we have any individual close to the talent, expertise and success of a Hank Peters in the Indians front office currently? Do we have an owner who built a foundation like Dick Jacobs who knew he had to hire a genuine baseball guy to get results?

Feel free to compare and enjoy.

If you are a real Indians fan, buy the book, you'll enjoy it, but when you come to realize where this team is today most of us will share much disgust.

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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:29 pm

You're like a broken record..

....blah blah blah..spread sheet guy versus baseball guy...

...blah blah blah.. Mr Jacobs... blah blah Mark Shapiro.. blah...

All you're doing is posting vague generalities and cliches.. congrats, you can "..play them all one at a time.." while.. "if the good lord is willing..." "..help the club..." Perhaps you should work on your friendship making cliches/approach: "...Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hangin' curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent over-rated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days..." the last thing mentioned.. you are good at, especially below the waist and behind...

Why don't you stop repeating the same drivel over and over and over and try something new.. like have an actual discussion?.. OOOPS, that would mean you'd actually have to listen to someone else, something you are incapable of doing...
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby timdav » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:33 pm

Ironmike: Another insightful, excellent post. You have perfectly crystalized my views about the absolute necessity of an on-going, excellent farm system.

Why in heavens name ANY owner of a major league baseball team....most-especially a "small-to-mid-revenue market" team...wouldn't absolutely insist on a high-quality minor league and scouting organization is beyond me.

Nobody has ever faulted the Dolans or any business owner for that matter, for wanting to make a profit. After all, it is a business. But, isn't it obvious they aren't trying THAT hard to build a real winner? That's cheating the fans...the people who pay for everything.

Why? No owner who invests 323-million-dollars of their own money and claim to be lifetime baseball fans could be so ignorant to not to have any clue that their minor league system...the very foundation of EVERY major league baseball organization...was failing to successfully scout, sign, and develop even a few major league players in their 13 years of ownership. Doesn't this ownership family ever wonder if, maybe, just maybe it's time for new FO leadership?

I do not question their 100% right to run their organization any way they want to. But, as a fan in a very public, entertainment industry like sports...feel all of us have the right to offer our opinion.

p.s.: Geronimo: What do you want us to complain about...the food at Progressive Field? The color-scheme of the seats? The shape and configuration of the outfield? Huh????? All of us are hammering away at what we honestly believe is a serious problem with this organization in hopes with enough passion and fire the message will get to the Dolans, and they will wake up. It's either do what we're doing, put up with incompetence and losing, or find another hobby. I'm not ready to give up on my Tribe yet.
Last edited by timdav on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:47 pm

timdav wrote:Ironmike: Another insightful, excellent post.

You have perfectly crystalized my views about the absolute necessity of an on-going, excellent farm system.

Why in heavens name ANY owner of a major league baseball team....most-especially a "small-to-mid-revenue market" team...wouldn't absolutely insist on a high-quality minor league and scouting organization is beyond me.

Nobody has ever faulted the Dolans or any business owner for that matter, for wanting to make a profit. After all, it is a business.

However, IMHO, it is a baseball version of a lame, lazy baseball-welfare cheat who sits back and is content to profit from MLBB's revenue sharing without an real overt passion to build a world series championship caliber baseball company.

Being a baseball cheat, a pretend-contender, is a rip-off of their fans, their employees, and really the rest of baseball.

These guys HAVE to have been content to cash the checks and simply coast along.

Why? No owner who invests 323-million-dollars of their own money and claim to be lifetime baseball fans could be so ignorant to not to have any clue that their minor league system...the very foundation of EVERY major league baseball organization...was failing to successfully scout, sign, and develop even a few major league players in their 13 years of ownership.

Doesn't this ownership family ever wonder who the hell they're paying in the front office and why are they still in those positions of authority and responsibility? If it were any other type of business...heads would've rolled many years ago.

Nobody could be that dumb. They've just been content these past few years. And, you see what THAT'S gotten them.

I do not question their 100% right to run their organization any way they want to. But, as a fan in a very public, entertainment industry like sports...feel all of us have the right to offer our opinion.


The three colored quotes basically point out:

1. Do you really believe Mr Dolan has insisted on low quality minor leagues and scouting people?.. ARE YOU REALLY THAT DUMB?

2. Mr Dolan has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the purchase, ownership and ongoing operation of the Cleveland Indians in the city of Cleveland.. He's not a cheat, not a welfare anything.. your opinion on this is WHACKED OUT, OVER THE EDGE, PURE STUPIDITY....

3. Not having a clue is what you have.. none.. no chance for even renting a clue on how to operate a lemonade stand.. It's no wonder you agree with Rusty... he's as clueless as anyone who EVER posts on this site.. Wait for his next idiot list.. it will include Kendrys Morales, Billy Hamilton, Andrew McCutchen as guys the Indians should go out an get.. and they won't.. and he'll sit smugly in his ignorance proclaiming his plan wasn't followed, so that's why they stink.. oh, and bring back Hank Peters while the Indians front office is at it.. he's only 88 years old..
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:54 pm

There aren't 17 other threads with this same dribble already? :ugeek
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby timdav » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:00 pm

You personally do not agree with me...and that's fine.

But me ignorant about what we're talking about here? I've met and worked with more front office people, players, and media people than 99% of the people on this board. And, my feelings are very similar to EVERY media person I know who are paid to cover baseball.

I blame the Dolans for being out of touch. For investing hundreds of millions of dollars and not having any clue about the very basics of what it takes to be truly successful on the field....of hanging on to the same, failed front office whom they've employed for every minute of their ownership. The Dolans are by no means the only major league owner who sits back and coasts...cashing revenue sharing checks and obviously not really trying.

Again...baseball, like anything else in the entertainment industry: it lives off the money spent by their fans, the general public. We have every right to boo or give our opinions.

You have every right to slam me...we all have our opinions. But, you are the one who shows your ignorance not to look beyond your anger at my opinion and others you don't agree with and realize what many of us are saying is true: this baseball organization has been an on-field failure most of the years since Dick Jacobs sold the team.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:07 pm

The two problems I have is the climate of baseball then and now is completely different, and the climate of CLEVELAND is completely different then and now.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:20 pm

A.Zajac wrote:The two problems I have is the climate of baseball then and now is completely different, and the climate of CLEVELAND is completely different then and now.


1. certainly the difference economically between the lower level teams and the top teams financially is vastly different than even in the 90s when it was bad.

2. The Indians do have to compete with the Browns now but they really have to compete with themselves and that is their fault. In the '90's there was only 1 minor league team in the area (Akron/Canton) unless you want to include Columbus or Toledo. Now they have to compete with Lake County, MV, and Akron. Certainly when you have a good team, the major league team will get the lion share but when going poorly people will matriculate to the more local teams. This hurts the big league club. Baseball still is the most affordable sport to take your family to but if the alternative is a fraction and a bit closer, where will you take your family. Moving your minor league teams to Lake County and MV were shortsighted business decisions and this hurts the attendence.

3. The common stock purchase also hurt the team to a degree. If you have to compete with the Browns and Cavs, what better way then let your fans feel like they are part of the process. Look what it did for the Packers? They were awful for most of the 70's and 80's but because fans felt like they were a part of the team, they had good support (otherwise the team would have moved like another team I know.)
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby indians1 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:38 am

Lets get a few things straight. Cleveland is not a good baseball town. PERIOD! They support this team only when it is popular to do so. They did it in the 90's because the football team sucked or moved and the CAVS were the cavs.

That being said, the only way to convince fans to get to the ballpark is to put a product on the field worth watching. That may sound like a simple concept but it is all in the execution.

The reason we stink is not because the owner will not spend enough money. The dolans have spent more on this team than dick jacobs ever did. The highest payrolls were under larry dolan not dick jacobs.

The reason we stink is because we do not have a good scouting and development system in place. Geronimo- i would ask you a question.... You seem to rail on people for bashing the FO. Do you have confidence in mark shapiro and chris antonetti and their staff to make the right decisions on personnel?

Because if your answer is no, then nothing else matters. We can spend some money on free agents this offseason, but if the core of talent that this FO said is ready to compete from last year through 2014 is going to play like it has for 2 years, we are screwed.

We can sugercoat and window dress this team all we want, but if we don't have guys like kipnis, santana, brantley, and chisenhall ready to play like borderline all-stars, we are screwed.

Because guess what? in the 90's, we won because we drafted, developed and traded for elite talent in belle, ramirez, baerga, lofton, alomar, nagy, bartolo colon, CC. . We didn't pay premium dollar for one of those players. We got them when they were young and cheap and then we let them walk or get traded when they got too expensive.

The problem is that for the better part of 15 years, our drafting and developing has been atrocious.

Say what you want about the big market teams, but they still draft and develop from within. The red sox, phillies, giants, braves, texas, dodgers spend money and can afford to keep their own but they are really good at drafting.

So i ask geronimo again, "do you trust shapiro and antonetti to make the right decisions on player personnel?
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby ironmike » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:18 am

Timdav, thanks, the reality is, one pound of learning takes ten pounds of common sense to apply it. For those who put there heads in the sand, well, others don't have to follow or dig them out.

The Indians under Dolan had the right formula in their hands, it was all done for them. It reminds me of the kid who takes over his parent's business, thinks he's the cats meow and screws it up. Trust me, Mark Shapiro and Antonetti have read Jack Torry's book, right now they are in a sinking boat with lots of leaks, ain't no way they fix this in the time period they are telling the fans, partners and sponsors. No way. Besides, their track record lends to they are not qualified themselves to fix it.

Did Shapiro argue with Drennan when he was told he got an "F" for drafting? No, he did not. That "F" Indians fans is why we went from one of baseball's best franchises to the worst. No other reason. All comes back to Dolan and Shapiro.

For those of you who think the game has changed since the time Hank Peters / John Hart worked their magic you are on an ego trip. The farm system is still the foundation whether it is 1949, 1966, 1982, 1992 or 2012.

Bad owner, with a bad business model, who hire incompentent executives, who in turn hire more incompentent executives, scouts, player development people, scouting director and manager equals no results.

More from Chapter 9 to come ...
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby Rocky55 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:04 am

That Drennan/Shapiro interview/interrogation was hilarious. Who knew old Bruce had it in him. The sad fact is, that is exactly the kind of talk that Dolan should be having with Shapiro, plus instructing Shapiro to send it on down the line to Antonetti. A not so gently worded: This changes or else!

Should have been done years ago.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:50 am

Rocky55 wrote:That Drennan/Shapiro interview/interrogation was hilarious. Who knew old Bruce had it in him. The sad fact is, that is exactly the kind of talk that Dolan should be having with Shapiro, plus instructing Shapiro to send it on down the line to Antonetti. A not so gently worded: This changes or else!

Should have been done years ago.


What really bugged me about the Drennan/Shapiro interview (on the YouTube for those interested) is Drennen flat out lying. He hammered the Cliff Lee trade from the moment his show started following the Indians day game when Cliff Lee and Ben Fransisco were traded. He opened his show with his ugly crybaby face on and said "I hate this trade." Then ripped it apart.

He flat out denied his hatred for the deal when Shapiro defended the deal and brought up the fact that Drennen has ripped it several times in the past. That's just weak on Drennen IMO. Now that said, I don't agree with Shapiro about the deal itself. I didn't hate it, I was intrigued with both Knapp and still Carrasco, but I get that he's just defending his work. But he at least has to admit the deal didn't work out as well as it should have.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:47 am

....So i ask geronimo again, "do you trust shapiro and antonetti to make the right decisions on player personnel?


Unfortunately, this is the wrong question to ask.. Let me explain..

Start with a simple definition: Trust is the firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.. In this case the evaluation of 18 or 21 year old baseball players by a pair of front office employees of the Cleveland Indians.. It should be noted that the two names mentioned, Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti, are not alone in what they call "a process". Now this may sound like a spin masters "gobbltigoop" and it is to some extent, but it is always easy to proclaim after the fact..these guys suck at what they do.. when in fact, they are the spokesmen for a group of people who have evaluated both the financial as well as scholastic capability of the athletes and have arrived at a consensus of what they believe to be the best player available. But it is well known that they cannot be right all the time.. In fact, if this team effort can be right 3 % of the time, they're considered good. That's right.. 3 out of 100 draft picks and international free agent signings making it to the major leagues is a GOOD outcome. That's right.. about 1 1/2 players added to a ML roster each season..

So, can they be trusted?..the answer is.. perhaps yes.. perhaps no...one thing is certain, the "let's change to something else because what we're doing isn't working" crowd fails to offer anything of substance as an alternative. and that's a crying shame...

btw... you don't want me to give you a definition of "substance" ...
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:18 am

GeronimoSon wrote: Now this may sound like a spin masters "gobbltigoop" and it is to some extent, but it is always easy to proclaim after the fact..these guys suck at what they do.. when in fact, they are the spokesmen for a group of people who have evaluated both the financial as well as scholastic capability of the athletes and have arrived at a consensus of what they believe to be the best player available. But it is well known that they cannot be right all the time.. In fact, if this team effort can be right 3 % of the time, they're considered good. That's right.. 3 out of 100 draft picks and international free agent signings making it to the major leagues is a GOOD outcome. That's right.. about 1 1/2 players added to a ML roster each season..


If you can't evaluate them because of what they did, how do you? Yes 3% make it but 1st Rounder are much much greater and they've gotten an F in drafting (recent drafts cannot be evauated yet). Few minor leaguers developed (especially starting pitchers - where their best arms have been moved to the BP). Then inactivity this past offseason when they were in their own described "window of contention". I'm certainly not in the IronMike camp that everything they do is wrong but I do evaluate by looking at what has been produced knowing economic conditions and tradeable assets.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby ironmike » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:08 pm

Daingean, as Terry Francona emphasized today in his press conference, developing your own young players is HUGE.

With that said again, you can't miss on a Rob Bryson, Knapp and LaPorta (and others) when you are trading Cy Young Award winners. These guys should have been contributing a long time ago. They didn't. Yet, they were celebrated as power arms, impact players, home run hitters, run producers. Crow doesn't taste very good even with hot sauce on it.

In MLB there are no gray areas, it is either results or failure. The FO is only doing what they can now and shift the blame on Manny Acta. Who else is there to blame? A 68-94 record is a significant failure in the year we were supposed to contend.

Lousy baseball evaluators. What else can it be? I'm listening, educate me.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:30 pm

ironmike wrote:Daingean, as Terry Francona emphasized today in his press conference, developing your own young players is HUGE.

With that said again, you can't miss on a Rob Bryson, Knapp and LaPorta (and others) when you are trading Cy Young Award winners. These guys should have been contributing a long time ago. They didn't. Yet, they were celebrated as power arms, impact players, home run hitters, run producers. Crow doesn't taste very good even with hot sauce on it.

In MLB there are no gray areas, it is either results or failure. The FO is only doing what they can now and shift the blame on Manny Acta. Who else is there to blame? A 68-94 record is a significant failure in the year we were supposed to contend.

Lousy baseball evaluators. What else can it be? I'm listening, educate me.


While I agree with your assessments of CC and C. Lee trades, I would also counter with the Choo, Asdrubal, Sizemore/C.Lee, C. Santana, C.Perez, C.Crisp acquisitions. They definitely deserve an F in drafting (so for the most part did J.Hart's regime btw - only CC and Manny were good draft picks with J.Wright and P.Shuey being okay but David Miller, Danny Peoples, Kirkreit, Tim Drew and company were actually worse than the Sowers/Gutherie/Crowe picks). I base my assessment on the whole thing not just the stuff which supports my arguements. At your own words above we cannot afford to miss on these picks.

I agree that we need a change in the FO. The drafting has been better recently because they have changed their philosophy and started drafting tools instead of "closest to majors". There will always be guys you can say in hindsight as being better but they need to draft smarter. For instance your Sale pick would not have been a good bet for a small market team like the Indians because his delivery says major arm injury in the near future (look up the Inverted-W and see comments on Anthony Reyes). They need to draft high ceiling guys but not people who have a higher injury risk than a normal player.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby timdav » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:40 pm

One thing that's fairly safe to bet: the FO is on the clock. Even with a very good, experienced manager they'd better start making better trades and what free agent moves they do make.

Francona may have a 4-year contract, but MS & CA do not.

By firing Manny Acta & hiring Terry Francona the FO bought themselves at least a little time...but now they have to really perform.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby OhioBaseball » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:48 pm

ironmike wrote:In MLB there are no gray areas, it is either results or failure. The FO is only doing what they can now and shift the blame on Manny Acta. Who else is there to blame? A 68-94 record is a significant failure in the year we were supposed to contend.

Lousy baseball evaluators. What else can it be? I'm listening, educate me.


First, I agree with you. The Indians have failed miserably in MLB and the farm system is bad at best. All you've got to do is look at the extremely poor showing the Indians are having in BA's league prospect rankings they are now publishing. I hope this is as bad as it gets.

Second, regarding your question about 'lousy baseball evaluators'...it could be that, or it could be lousy player development. Scouting directors and scouts get a lot of credit -- a lot of the time its the guys teaching the prospects how to play that make the difference.

In the case of the Indians, I think both scouting and development are subpar and need to be replaced. When they do get talented players into the system, they aren't developed and the scouts spend far too much money on mediocre talent (see the 2009 and 2010 drafts -- I said from the start that guys like Wolters, Holt, Blair, Putnam, Fedroff weren't worth fractions of what they were given). I hope Fedroff proves me wrong, but he's not so great.

The Saint Louis Cardinals game is on now. The Cardinals have some valuable players. Allen Craig was an 8th round pick, Matt Carpenter was a 13th round pick, Matt Adams was a 23rd round pick. None of those are traditional, top notch prospects but they've got a lot of value. I can't remember the last time the Indians had a good positional prospect that was a late round draft pick come up to the MLB team and contribute. The Indians just dont draft and develop well, and given their financial position, they have to!! There are no Richie Sexson's (24th round pick), Jim Thome's (13th round pick), Brian Giles' (17th round pick) even Russell Branyan (7th round pick) though he wasnt very good. Fifteen years ago, guys like Allen Craig would have been drafted and developed as Cleveland Indians. We just never see any of those guys drafted and developed anymore (outside of a middle reliever but all teams get those) and its one of the reasons why the Indians are in such a bad spot.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby danh8 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:57 pm

timdav wrote:One thing that's fairly safe to bet: the FO is on the clock. Even with a very good, experienced manager they'd better start making better trades and what free agent moves they do make.

Francona may have a 4-year contract, but MS & CA do not.

By firing Manny Acta & hiring Terry Francona the FO bought themselves at least a little time.



I wasn't the most supportive person of having Francona being named our manager, and I may be wrong in thinking that..but my immediate thought in hiring our future manager was to find a guy that I thought would manage to properly develop players which entails more patience and less managing "like every game is the 7th game of the World Series". By that, I mean lots of times in developing a player you have to allow them to go out and do things their way and fail, for them to properly get an important message and how to eventually do something properly. I've known Terry for over 25 years, and he's an intensley competitive guy and manages like a bulldog. Straight shooter, but fair and a good person. My intial reservations will be how his style will meld with the very young teams he will be leading, and if he has the patience to allow a player to fail his way to learn a hard lesson. But, we'll see.... I think we clearly have our most respected manager league-wide now, since we had McNamara. Not even a question, IMHO. This team under Acta received little respect from the opposition, opposing managers, or umpires under Acta ...he never demanded it. But, that will be the first thing that changes with Francona. He demands respect everywhere, from everyone, and expects his teams to fight for each other to the bitter end. More than anything, that type mentality was lost with this team under Acta. Acta was a good guy, probably a great coach and stategist, but really not a leader of men in my opinion. And leader have to be able to lead men. So, this team is better off now, than with Acta ...it will be interesting to see how the kids are going to be handled and developed under Terry, though. A young team will test his patience.. and he's not a guy that likes to build...he likes to win.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby indians1 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:38 pm

i think the hiring of francona is a good one because it now puts all the pressure on shapiro and antonetti. Their whole thing is that this team underachieved is now on those guys. They are getting a proven manager and if they do what they have done the last 2 years, then it will be on the lack of talent that has been with this team and how they overvalued this team.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby danh8 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:28 pm

Indians1: one common theme that goes back to Wedge's final two years, and Acta's second season is Indians team's that seemed to underachieve. Losing Belcher as our pitching coach I feel really hurt the positive growth trends of our young starting pitchers, especially Masterson. I would have really liked tohave had an experienced pitching technician to manage to very tough problems that are presented when you have delivery issues like what Masterson and Jimenez offer any pitching coach. It was a monumental error in asking of and placing that degree of vital and extremely difficult task to a first time, very green pitching coach. Almost unfair in my mind. We should have looked for the best available league wide... Not just bump up those down the ladder. Not at this juncture, and with our staff makeup. Huge judgment error in my mind. I hope Francona fills his staff with great, experienced teachers.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby timdav » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:45 pm

This is interesting. Just noted on Twitter:

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Terry Francona has out clauses in his contract in the event that the people he works for are dismissed.


Hmmmm.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:42 pm

Sounds like the buddy system.

I don't have a problem with that, I guess Francona wanted to protect himself in case the FO was wiped out.

OR...

Was is Shapiro and CA protecting themselves???
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:51 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Sounds like the buddy system.

I don't have a problem with that, I guess Francona wanted to protect himself in case the FO was wiped out.

OR...

Was is Shapiro and CA protecting themselves???


I think it's all parties involved protecting themselves.

Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's odd that of all the contract details leaked, that one got out.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby ironmike » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:56 am

Ohio Baseball wrote, Second, regarding your question about 'lousy baseball evaluators'...it could be that, or it could be lousy player development. Scouting directors and scouts get a lot of credit -- a lot of the time its the guys teaching the prospects how to play that make the difference.

Agree.

Danh8, agree regarding Tim Belcher, would like to see him get involved again, even as pitching instructor with flexibility allowed for his family concerns.
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:47 am

The "Out Clause" leak...

Tito stated, emphatically, that the primary reason he came to the opportunity with the Indians was the call from his long time friends, Chris Antonetti & Mark Shapiro.. There was an anecdotal story about a treadmill and the striking up of a conversation that has endured through more than a decade w/ either both FO exec's. It appears that the 'fit' between the front office and the head on field manager is solid to spectacularly established.. just like it was with Grover and Hart.. Nothing but good can come from that..

As far as the leak, if you've ever been put in a position of being # 2 man in charge of an organization with the # 1 man being your peer, your colleague and your trusted confidante, and he is removed, then it's a pretty good bet that you'd want to take the severance package and "get the hell out of dodge" if he was forcibly removed.. unless it was you being asked to take the #1 spot, then your honor and loyalty would be at issue.. That's when it's time to have a deep and fulfilling discussion with your departing colleague...
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Re: Just How Bad Is The State of Dolan & Shapiro's Indians?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:52 am

Regarding comparisons to Tito, Wedge and respecting the game...

The parallels are almost spooky.. Eric Wedge preached the need to respect the game..respect each other..pride in wearing Chief Wahoo on your sleeve.. and the need to play the full 27 outs... He was unforgiving to ANYONE that didn't.. possibly to his detriment.. Tito offered the same message..

btw.. part of the reason I still like, to this day, Eric Wedge...
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