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This is why we need a new Front office

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This is why we need a new Front office

Postby indians1 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:56 pm

I had to do check my computer screen again when i read what mark shapiro said to an emailer on the les levine show.

This article is on wknr.com.
Shapiro told the emailer that if their only reason for purchasing was to see the Indians win, “Don’t come.”
Even the best teams lose 62 times in a season. If you base your decision to come to the game on whether we win or lose, don’t come. You’re missing out. You’re missing out on what baseball is all about, and I’m fine with that.

He goes on in the article to talk about cycles of winning.

"No where are we spending more of our time, more of our energy or more money in trying to win. We all understand that the single-most important thing in baseball is winning and losing. But we are always going to have cycles to when we can win.”

One question? When tampa lost crawford, soriano, pena, did they give up and go into rebuild mode?

this organization has such a losing attitude and will never win consistently because they don't think it is possible. What a joke shapiro has become. I cannot believe dolan believes this BS. shapiro should be fired along with antonetti.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:50 am

So sorry you see his comment as you do..

Baseball purist will tell you.. if your enjoyment comes only after waiting to see the outcome on the scoreboard, you will have missed the greatness within the game that became America's pastime. Sure, winning is the goal, but, it's not the only reason you come to a game....

At least, not for fair weather fans...
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:25 am

I didn't read it that way. Since you can't predict a win before a game, it seems like Shapiro is scolding fans who don't rush out to blindly support his & Antonetti's flawed product. If the FO indeed spends all of their time, effort, energy, money, Karma, Chi, grace, goodwill, whatever, on winning, and this is the result it gives pause.

This is a product that the team is selling. Not an exact analogy but think of a store that sells low grade crap most of the time but gets indignant if you aren't spending all of your alloted funds there, with the argument that "Sometimes our product is good. It can't be all of the time."

The statement is true as far as it goes & baseball is different than retail but I'd guess that buyers for a retail chain would be held much more accountable than our FO is. They treat it like the big GUM stores in the old Soviet Union where they were the only game in town & the customers took what they got & liked it.

The last thing this team needs as an organization is the image of a pompous joker like Shapiro sneering at fans who don't gobble up any swill that he throws their way.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:46 am

GeronimoSon wrote:So sorry you see his comment as you do..

Baseball purist will tell you.. if your enjoyment comes only after waiting to see the outcome on the scoreboard, you will have missed the greatness within the game that became America's pastime. Sure, winning is the goal, but, it's not the only reason you come to a game....

At least, not for fair weather fans...


And yet it is without a doubt the dumbest thing anyone in the Indians FO can tell a jaded fan base. The fans are already not going to games. You can't have a FO tell fans "we believe we can compete within our division" etc only to tell them not to show up if winning is all they care about. It's a business, it's not Shaprios job to fill the stands with "baseball purists" it's his job to fill the fucking stadium. End of story.

My goodness man why do you so blindly defend EVERYTHING this FO does or says?
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:10 am

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:So sorry you see his comment as you do..

Baseball purist will tell you.. if your enjoyment comes only after waiting to see the outcome on the scoreboard, you will have missed the greatness within the game that became America's pastime. Sure, winning is the goal, but, it's not the only reason you come to a game....

At least, not for fair weather fans...


And yet it is without a doubt the dumbest thing anyone in the Indians FO can tell a jaded fan base. The fans are already not going to games. You can't have a FO tell fans "we believe we can compete within our division" etc only to tell them not to show up if winning is all they care about. It's a business, it's not Shaprios job to fill the stands with "baseball purists" it's his job to fill the fucking stadium. End of story.

My goodness man why do you so blindly defend EVERYTHING this FO does or says?


And why do you criticize every single word that comes from the front office ? It is sooooo easy to identify the problem in your jaded eyes. The simple fact of the matter is what Mark said is exactly right. If the only reason you want to go to a game is to see a win, then don't go. You are going to be disappointed AT LEAST 40 % of the time in a good year, 50 % of the time in an average year and more than 50 % of the time for the rest of the time.

If you are measuring your 'enjoyment' by a W or an L, then you want nothing more than instant gratification without the journey. Stay away.. don't go to the games. Your kind of "fan-dom" isn't needed or desired. A stadium filled with your ilk will drive real fans away.

BTW.. the only thing worse than telling everyone what's wrong with it (the Indians plight as a major league franchise) is telling everyone who's to BLAME for it.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:34 pm

I personally think people are blowing what he said WAY out of proportion. Him saying "Don't come" was stupid, and he probably regrets that, but everything he said is right. Winning is the ultimate goal in everything, but there are many more reasons we go to the games or follow the teams we do than simply winning-losing. If winning was all that mattered, then Cleveland would not have any sports teams since we haven't done a whol lot of winning in this town in almost 50 years.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:34 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I personally think people are blowing what he said WAY out of proportion. Him saying "Don't come" was stupid, and he probably regrets that, but everything he said is right. Winning is the ultimate goal in everything, but there are many more reasons we go to the games or follow the teams we do than simply winning-losing. If winning was all that mattered, then Cleveland would not have any sports teams since we haven't done a whol lot of winning in this town in almost 50 years.


+1


Worst part is all these national writers keep posting this with headlines like "Indians Prex: Winning Isn't Everything", which is not what he said. Just more hack journalism taking this out of context and blowing it up.


Tribe Front Office gets bashed for not speaking out to guys like Boras, Perez and others, yet when they do speak their mind (and the truth) "fans" jump all over them. They're damed if they do and damned if they don't.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:37 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:So sorry you see his comment as you do..

Baseball purist will tell you.. if your enjoyment comes only after waiting to see the outcome on the scoreboard, you will have missed the greatness within the game that became America's pastime. Sure, winning is the goal, but, it's not the only reason you come to a game....

At least, not for fair weather fans...


And yet it is without a doubt the dumbest thing anyone in the Indians FO can tell a jaded fan base. The fans are already not going to games. You can't have a FO tell fans "we believe we can compete within our division" etc only to tell them not to show up if winning is all they care about. It's a business, it's not Shaprios job to fill the stands with "baseball purists" it's his job to fill the fucking stadium. End of story.

My goodness man why do you so blindly defend EVERYTHING this FO does or says?


And why do you criticize every single word that comes from the front office ? It is sooooo easy to identify the problem in your jaded eyes. The simple fact of the matter is what Mark said is exactly right. If the only reason you want to go to a game is to see a win, then don't go. You are going to be disappointed AT LEAST 40 % of the time in a good year, 50 % of the time in an average year and more than 50 % of the time for the rest of the time.

If you are measuring your 'enjoyment' by a W or an L, then you want nothing more than instant gratification without the journey. Stay away.. don't go to the games. Your kind of "fan-dom" isn't needed or desired. A stadium filled with your ilk will drive real fans away.

BTW.. the only thing worse than telling everyone what's wrong with it (the Indians plight as a major league franchise) is telling everyone who's to BLAME for it.


Except I don't criticize everything the front office does. You lump anyone who has a different opinion from yours into ironmike territory, or Hoynes/Pluto camps. You don't know the first thing about me, how I act at baseball games or what type of fan I am. I've been to several opening day games in a row, multiple games a year, all with my father who has declining health. So lord willing, I'll get possibly one more opening day with him sitting a couple rows behind the Indians dugout, watching him wave at the players as they enter the dugout as if he were a child again.

So as far as you're concerned, get fuck yourself. You have no clue about my reasons for liking the Cleveland Indians.

Ban me or whatever, I'm disgusted with this piece of trash. He's a troll that gets far too much attention from everyone here.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:26 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:So sorry you see his comment as you do..

Baseball purist will tell you.. if your enjoyment comes only after waiting to see the outcome on the scoreboard, you will have missed the greatness within the game that became America's pastime. Sure, winning is the goal, but, it's not the only reason you come to a game....

At least, not for fair weather fans...


And yet it is without a doubt the dumbest thing anyone in the Indians FO can tell a jaded fan base. The fans are already not going to games. You can't have a FO tell fans "we believe we can compete within our division" etc only to tell them not to show up if winning is all they care about. It's a business, it's not Shaprios job to fill the stands with "baseball purists" it's his job to fill the fucking stadium. End of story.

My goodness man why do you so blindly defend EVERYTHING this FO does or says?


And why do you criticize every single word that comes from the front office ? It is sooooo easy to identify the problem in your jaded eyes. The simple fact of the matter is what Mark said is exactly right. If the only reason you want to go to a game is to see a win, then don't go. You are going to be disappointed AT LEAST 40 % of the time in a good year, 50 % of the time in an average year and more than 50 % of the time for the rest of the time.

If you are measuring your 'enjoyment' by a W or an L, then you want nothing more than instant gratification without the journey. Stay away.. don't go to the games. Your kind of "fan-dom" isn't needed or desired. A stadium filled with your ilk will drive real fans away.

BTW.. the only thing worse than telling everyone what's wrong with it (the Indians plight as a major league franchise) is telling everyone who's to BLAME for it.


Except I don't criticize everything the front office does. You lump anyone who has a different opinion from yours into ironmike territory, or Hoynes/Pluto camps. You don't know the first thing about me, how I act at baseball games or what type of fan I am. I've been to several opening day games in a row, multiple games a year, all with my father who has declining health. So lord willing, I'll get possibly one more opening day with him sitting a couple rows behind the Indians dugout, watching him wave at the players as they enter the dugout as if he were a child again.

So as far as you're concerned, get fuck yourself. You have no clue about my reasons for liking the Cleveland Indians.

Ban me or whatever, I'm disgusted with this piece of trash. He's a troll that gets far too much attention from everyone here.


Waaaaaaaaaaahh what a whiner..

Personally, I don't care if you do or don't like the Cleveland Indians or the reasons why. The person who is clueless is you. Identifying the problems and blaming is what you've added today. As a successful business person, I can tell you, after you've figured out what the problem is and who to blame for it, you'll still have the same problem and the same need to fix it. It will just be ten minutes later. Too bad you don't the maturity to understand that. It's JUST WAAAAAAY TOO EASY to BLAME. As far as authorship, you are not an author or a columnist such as Hoynes or Pluto. You're not anything. (Sorry to hear about your father..keep taking him to games, win or lose, openers or a series with the Royals.. Fathers are only on the planet for a short time.. enjoying their company at a ball game is precious..and I'd give up most anything to be able to go to another ball game with my Dad, RIP). Your opinion that you are being lumped is inaccurate.. You are the lump. You want to bash and rebash and bash some more. Well, too bad when someone who is a LOT smarter than you are has a differing opinion. You can refrain from the boorish vulgar gutter language, too. It has no place on any forum.

Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it.. and NO I don't expect you to have the courage, the maturity or the intelligence to realize your comment went WAY over the line and deserves an apology. Troll, that...
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby danh8 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:09 pm

Under Dolan's ownership baseball is more entertainment on a broader scale than being competitive. The opposing fans come to the game to see competitive and winning teams maybe ..but, Indians fans are more about the sunshine, dollar hot dogs, fireworks, bobbleheads, etc ... at least that's what the Dolan's are hoping for in marketing the team.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby indians1 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:29 pm

see geronimo,

I applaud the indians for trying to make the game as fan friendly and as family friendly we all know the indians are going to lose 60+ games/ year. That is a given.

The problem is that this team wins less than 40% of their games that they play. In a 3 game set, more than likely, this team is going to lose 2 out of the 3. I have been a defender of this FO and ownership when they decided to rebuild in 2002 and 2008. I was a basher of the fans who only filled the stadium at 24,000 when we were competing for the playoffs in 05 and 07.

I don't think shapiro's statement is being blown out of proportion like tony is saying. The indians try to justify their statements by talking about "cycles". The indians of the 90's competed from 94-2001 because of good talent evaluation (mostly in the early part of that run). But they were able to compete for so long because their first wave of talent brought in lofton, baerga, belle, alomar, nagy, and then the next wave was followed by chad ogea, manny ramirez, jim thome and for a short time jared wright. They had a nucleus of talent to build around especially from 94-99.

If you look at teams like minnesota, tampa, and (oakland of the 90's and early 2000's). They all had 2nd acts after their first wave of talent came in.

The indians competed in 2005 and 07 largely from the trades they made ( hafner, sizemore, lee, cabrera) and still had CC and victor brought in by the prior regimes. That 2nd wave never came in.

That is the frustration of this fan base (at least of me.). This FO has made blunder after blunder in the draft room, FA signings, and trades. They have made a few good trades but just think where this organization would be if it weren't for the idiot who was GM for seattle in 5 or 6 years ago that allowed us to get choo and cabrera.

This organization has failed to deliver on the "blueprint for success". Go ahead and call us whiners, but it doesn't change the fact that this organization has failed to compete because of bad talent evaluation.

Geronimo, you cant argue that last statement. It is fact. As a small market team, you have to be smarter and better than the others and can't whiff more than you hit. Tampa has competed how many years now ( in the AL east against the yankees and red sox).

The indians have no excuse and trying to put lipstick on a pig won't make fans come to the game.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby BrianM » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:22 am

I will always be an Indians fan, no matter what. I don't get out to many games but the last 2 I went to ignited very different emotions. the first was 4 or so years back, and I saw Cliff Lee dominate the Cardinals and take a no-no into the 8th inning. That was quite the experience, and an experience you can hope for every time you see an ace pitcher take the mound. The next game was the summer of 2011, when Cleveland was still in the hunt. It was Zmac's first career start I believe, and he got absolutely shelled by the Mariners. We lost all 4 games to the M's that series, and it was truly the end of our playoff hopes. It made me rethink taking the 'spur of the moment' three hour drive to catch an Indians game again.

Winning games is not all that matters. We werent winning in 09, and I was thrilled to go out and see a CY Young winner pitch, and he gave everyone in the stands that night something to be happy about. We may always have holes in our lineup or rotation that prevent us from truly being able to compete every year, but if our FO continues to make an effort to put quality baseball players on the field, I will be happy. If they settle with doing just enough to make a bit of a profit, than I will have a problem. Nobody should forget how awesome that 2011 season was with the pronk walkoffs and Santanas walkoff Slam and all the other players having some sort of moment that year. We werent supposed to compete, but we did for a while and magic was made in Cleveland.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby danh8 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:04 am

i love the game of baseball, and going to and watching the game live as many chances as i can get. three to four games per week on average, between minor league games and going to see the indians play. i'll make the two hour drive to an indians game usually about 15-20 games per season, but my greatest pleasure is watching the indians minor league teams, and just minor league baseball in general.

i get what shapiro said about going to watch a game is more than just wins and losses. it's the whole of the baseball experience. it's just, saying it.. and it coming from him at this juncture couldn't have been a dumber thing to say from a marketing standpoint. it's just seen as a cop out, and an easily applied excuse for coming failures to compete at the major league level.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:09 am

I completely agree, the Tribe didn't need the media to circle the wagons. It will be hard enough for the Indians to rebuild their rapport with a struggling fan base as is and this doesn't help. If anything it is a PR mistake - one which I think could further the Tribes already tarnished image.

At this point it's the Tribe fans who love the Indians that attend or simply those looking for entertainment. I think that's Shapiro's point; baseball is a game of entertainment, it's not necessarily a atmosphere of expectancy, rather one filled with experience. What IMO it really comes down to is what is the average fan taking away from this experience. Tribe fans, baseball lovers are there for the game...others attend with the expectancy to be entertained for a few hrs - that is our society and the culture we live in. Like it or not, Mark Shaprio's comments were bluntly true. His comments will have absolutely no bearing whether I attend another game or not.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby timdav » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:50 am

The Indians are not a fireworks & dollar-dog promotions company. They are a baseball company...and at least some degree of on-field competence has to exist....not lame statements like "go for the love of the game not just because of winning", or "trust us...we're trying to win". Actions speak louder than words, my friends.

At the very least, fix the farm system. Then tell us you're really trying to win. There has to be some dedication to the quality of your core product: the team's on field level of play.

Stop b.s.-ing and spinning us. We fans aren't total idiots.

Would you go to consistently awful movies because you love movies in general? Would you buy a terrible-quality car simply because you love cars in general? Would you eat at an awful restaurant simply because you love food? Of course you wouldn't.

Stop the salesmanship and do what it takes to improve the product, or see a lot fewer folks in the seats...regardless of ticket discounts and never-ending promotions. Or, try to sell the team to somebody who's willing & able to run a baseball team like, well...a baseball team.

We don't expect winning every game. Many of us no longer believe that there's a passion to build a winner...that all ownership cares about is making money without providing a consistent quality on-field product.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:03 am

Baseball is in the entertainment business. People who watch the games are entertained, win or lose.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby timdav » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:31 am

Baseball is entertainment, indeed. Movies and books are entertainment.

But, awful movies and books sooner or later don't sell. That's what we're talking about.

We're all giving our opinions. No matter what anybody posts, somebody comes along and says how wrong everybody else is, and how right their view is....it's comical.

All I know for sure is: look at the Indians attendance and consider their win-loss record over most of the past 60 years. When was their attendance consistently the best? 1990's. Sure, the Browns were gone, but the Indians consistently put very good teams on the field. They didn't always win huge, but they were very good teams...and fan attendance reflected it.
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:38 pm

That is true.. awful this and lousy that usually end up without an audience. Good thing the Indians put a quality product (that wins some, and loses some) on and off the field....
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:56 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:I personally think people are blowing what he said WAY out of proportion. Him saying "Don't come" was stupid, and he probably regrets that, but everything he said is right. Winning is the ultimate goal in everything, but there are many more reasons we go to the games or follow the teams we do than simply winning-losing. If winning was all that mattered, then Cleveland would not have any sports teams since we haven't done a whol lot of winning in this town in almost 50 years.


+1


Worst part is all these national writers keep posting this with headlines like "Indians Prex: Winning Isn't Everything", which is not what he said. Just more hack journalism taking this out of context and blowing it up.


Tribe Front Office gets bashed for not speaking out to guys like Boras, Perez and others, yet when they do speak their mind (and the truth) "fans" jump all over them. They're damed if they do and damned if they don't.


+1 to both of the comments (Tony and Hermie)
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Re: This is why we need a new Front office

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:03 pm

timdav wrote:Baseball is entertainment, indeed. Movies and books are entertainment.

But, awful movies and books sooner or later don't sell. That's what we're talking about.



I don't know....Twilight still seems to be selling pretty well....lol
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