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Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:10 am

Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:21 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.

Where is this quoted from?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:57 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.

Where is this quoted from?


NBC Sports / Craig Calcaterra reporting on what Scott Boras thinks from an interview with Shin-soo Choo with a Korean news source that was not identified in the article... here's the link:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... t-winning/
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:23 pm

The owner, not Shapiro needs to respond to these comments from Boras. IMO, he's actually doing the Cleveland fan a service telling them how it really is. The sooner the ownership changes the better it will be for all fans. No ownership can withstand losing money, division in the front office, sponsors leaving and fan apathy, a deadly combination. Would not be surprised if the process has already started. The new upcoming television dispursement might entice a few potential buyers.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.

Where is this quoted from?


NBC Sports / Craig Calcaterra reporting on what Scott Boras thinks from an interview with Shin-soo Choo with a Korean news source that was not identified in the article... here's the link:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... t-winning/

Thanks for the link. Calcaterra says that "there's no mistaking that he's saying that the Indians don't give a crap about competing." Easy for him to say. I had no idea what that quote was meant to say. Now that know I don't totally agree with what(I think) Boras was saying. The Org would love to win if it didn't cost too much & they didn't have to change their business model to do it. At least that was true Pre-Francona. I may be naive but I believe that things may change with Tito in town.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:55 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.

Where is this quoted from?


NBC Sports / Craig Calcaterra reporting on what Scott Boras thinks from an interview with Shin-soo Choo with a Korean news source that was not identified in the article... here's the link:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... t-winning/

Thanks for the link. Calcaterra says that "there's no mistaking that he's saying that the Indians don't give a crap about competing." Easy for him to say. I had no idea what that quote was meant to say. Now that know I don't totally agree with what(I think) Boras was saying. The Org would love to win if it didn't cost too much & they didn't have to change their business model to do it. At least that was true Pre-Francona. I may be naive but I believe that things may change with Tito in town.


I would tend to "want" to agree that change is coming. With Terry Francona in the mix, we should see some changes in the approach to who is or isn't evaluated as a ML player. Francona will have almost ZIP to say about salaries of players and other such nonsense simply because he spent all his time in baseball in the batting cages and riding buses. He can't even spell the words spread & sheet, let alone create one/utilize one for analysis. He is THOROUGHLY unqualified to be a Major League front office Geek with no baseball intuition... <HNQ>

But.. this quote has NOT been stated because of what Scott Boras thinks about the Indians ownership "having to show" or "..must pay to compete." nonsense. First and foremost, Scott Boras is no fool. Scott Boras can read the writing on the wall and has picked a RATHER CONVENIENT STOOGE CLUB to get his message across. In the process, he's denigrated a good player and client, who uttered a comment in broken/translated English about wanting to win baseball games (hello.. you play to win the game !) What Scott Boras is all about is something a bit dirtier.. ALL MLB teams will be increasing their national TV revenue to $ 52 MM per team or just over double their current amount (here's a simple story link for these numbers: http://www.examiner.com/article/mlb-new ... -each-team ) following the 2013 season. Scott Boras wants his piece of the pie.. his share..his entitlement.. and he knows that guys like Shin-soo Choo, who's contract expires in unison with the new nation TV contract will be the first guys to be on the "UP Escalator". At the end of the day.. his comments have NOTHING to do with a comment about wanting to win games by Shin-soo Choo or by a showing of determination by the ownership of various clubs.. For that scum sucking FPOS, it's all about the MONEY...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:06 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Is this any different from what Chris Perez was saying?

...“Choo’s let it be known that he has a desire to win. I think the ownership in Cleveland, foundationally, they’re going to have to illustrate some dynamics with new revenues and where they stand about what they do to show their fan base and their players who they are in competing. That’s a new calling that they are going to have to bring forth to give players, and everybody involved, (an idea) about what their intentions are in their ownership.”


-Let's see.. CP wants to win.. Choo wants to win.. CHECK

Everything else says.. "..pay Scott Boras' players/clients more.." Okay, There is at least 4% being wasted on their agent.

Where is this quoted from?


NBC Sports / Craig Calcaterra reporting on what Scott Boras thinks from an interview with Shin-soo Choo with a Korean news source that was not identified in the article... here's the link:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... t-winning/

Thanks for the link. Calcaterra says that "there's no mistaking that he's saying that the Indians don't give a crap about competing." Easy for him to say. I had no idea what that quote was meant to say. Now that know I don't totally agree with what(I think) Boras was saying. The Org would love to win if it didn't cost too much & they didn't have to change their business model to do it. At least that was true Pre-Francona. I may be naive but I believe that things may change with Tito in town.


I would tend to "want" to agree that change is coming. With Terry Francona in the mix, we should see some changes in the approach to who is or isn't evaluated as a ML player. Francona will have almost ZIP to say about salaries of players and other such nonsense simply because he spent all his time in baseball in the batting cages and riding buses. He can't even spell the words spread & sheet, let alone create one/utilize one for analysis. He is THOROUGHLY unqualified to be a Major League front office Geek with no baseball intuition... <HNQ>

But.. this quote has NOT been stated because of what Scott Boras thinks about the Indians ownership "having to show" or "..must pay to compete." nonsense. First and foremost, Scott Boras is no fool. Scott Boras can read the writing on the wall and has picked a RATHER CONVENIENT STOOGE CLUB to get his message across. In the process, he's denigrated a good player and client, who uttered a comment in broken/translated English about wanting to win baseball games (hello.. you play to win the game !) What Scott Boras is all about is something a bit dirtier.. ALL MLB teams will be increasing their national TV revenue to $ 52 MM per team or just over double their current amount (here's a simple story link for these numbers: http://www.examiner.com/article/mlb-new ... -each-team ) following the 2013 season. Scott Boras wants his piece of the pie.. his share..his entitlement.. and he knows that guys like Shin-soo Choo, who's contract expires in unison with the new nation TV contract will be the first guys to be on the "UP Escalator". At the end of the day.. his comments have NOTHING to do with a comment about wanting to win games by Shin-soo Choo or by a showing of determination by the ownership of various clubs.. For that scum sucking FPOS, it's all about the MONEY...

Boras considers it profit sharing. You always wonder about guys going into their contract year. Not that I think the Tribe is open to re-signing Choo. I have no idea what kind of low-ball offers they've made. Not that I blame them. He's on the downside. Takes balls to risk it though, turning down highly paid security for a shot at even bigger bucks. He's not the most durable guy either. Then again, maybe he just seriously hates Cleveland, and the bigger(longer) contract is secondary...Nah.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:10 pm

ironmike wrote:The owner, not Shapiro needs to respond to these comments from Boras. IMO, he's actually doing the Cleveland fan a service telling them how it really is. The sooner the ownership changes the better it will be for all fans. No ownership can withstand losing money, division in the front office, sponsors leaving and fan apathy, a deadly combination. Would not be surprised if the process has already started. The new upcoming television dispursement might entice a few potential buyers.


I disagree here. Just because Boras opened his mouth doesn't mean that ownership needs to respond. Boras is like Donald Trump. Just because he says something about ownership doesn't make it true. Should Obama have bent to the will of Trump and released all documents he asked for? Hell no (and this comes from someone who can't stand Obama). Boras is an agent and will talk. He wants every team to spend like the Yanks as it'll mean more money in his pocket. That's all.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:06 pm

Hermie, of course you disagree, logic or business acumen don't register with you.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
ironmike wrote:The owner, not Shapiro needs to respond to these comments from Boras. IMO, he's actually doing the Cleveland fan a service telling them how it really is. The sooner the ownership changes the better it will be for all fans. No ownership can withstand losing money, division in the front office, sponsors leaving and fan apathy, a deadly combination. Would not be surprised if the process has already started. The new upcoming television dispursement might entice a few potential buyers.


I disagree here. Just because Boras opened his mouth doesn't mean that ownership needs to respond. Boras is like Donald Trump. Just because he says something about ownership doesn't make it true. Should Obama have bent to the will of Trump and released all documents he asked for? Hell no (and this comes from someone who can't stand Obama). Boras is an agent and will talk. He wants every team to spend like the Yanks as it'll mean more money in his pocket. That's all.


+1 Hermie.. Spoken words meant to fill an agenda are clearly the bailiwick of Scott Boras in his attempt to "seize" the opportunities coming down the pike.. Not playing in "his sandbox" is the right course of action of any owner and GM of any club. This keeps the banter and blather to a dull roar. Engaging in a tet-a-tet in the media is EXACTLY what Boras wants and needs. Otherwise, why doesn't he rail on pre-arbitration and arbitration salaries as being unfair to his clients?

Answer: Because he can't get anywhere with ownership in an effort to raise that group of player's salaries to obscene levels...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:16 pm

Antonetti's response to Boras,

"I don't think we really need to react to that," Antonetti said. "We obviously have to conduct business the way we think it makes sense for the franchise."

True, it isn't Antonetti's responsibility to answer Boras. Antonetti has enough on his plate trying to overcome the 84 games under .500 record since 2008. The Dolan regime total since 2002 is 78 games under .500 hardly a record they can be proud of or argued for.

Boras calls the Indians a development team, he sure didn't make that up, the Indians earned the title.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:45 pm

Jason Bay as a DH/OF'er in LF?. Makes sense?..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:54 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Jason Bay as a DH/OF'er in LF?. Makes sense?..


Suppose it makes sense as far as we could use a left fielder and he needs to establish his value again. If he could come here and be similar to the first tour of Austin Kearns then great....but that's asking an awful lot from him these days.

Maybe he and Sizemore can be a platoon in left.....mostly joking there but that actually might not be too crazy an idea from this team.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:35 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Jason Bay as a DH/OF'er in LF?. Makes sense?..


Suppose it makes sense as far as we could use a left fielder and he needs to establish his value again. If he could come here and be similar to the first tour of Austin Kearns then great....but that's asking an awful lot from him these days.

Maybe he and Sizemore can be a platoon in left.....mostly joking there but that actually might not be too crazy an idea from this team.


Cleveland fans love a comeback almost as much as a returned hero.. makes sense.. would be a nice baseball story.. too.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:21 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Maybe he and Sizemore can be a platoon in left.....mostly joking there but that actually might not be too crazy an idea from this team.


If both were on Minor League deals I'd be all for this personally. Would be virtually no risk, but with potentially for some big rewards.

Definitely think Bay is a legit option. Makes a lot of sense and again, probably bias, but think the Indians would have to be the favorite or near the top with him. The type of guy we tend to get, plus we got his old manager (and we tried to get him a few times while with Pittsburgh)...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:21 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Jason Bay as a DH/OF'er in LF?. Makes sense?..

As Thurston Howell III would say, "Don't even say that in JEST!!!"
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:52 am

Rocky55 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Jason Bay as a DH/OF'er in LF?. Makes sense?..

As Thurston Howell III would say, "Don't even say that in JEST!!!"


....here comes the Jester.. 1- 2- 3- it's all part of our baseball fantasy..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:43 pm

Indians have DFAed Fabio Martinez and added Trey Haley, Tim Fedroff, TJ House, and CC Lee to the 40-man.

EDIT:

Tribe has also outrighted Lillibridge and LaPorta (I was way off there)...
Last edited by Hermie13 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:02 pm

Mark Shapiro was Les Levine's TV guest tonight on Les' Time Warner Cable's NEON channel show at 6pm (replays later tonight...I think at 11pm).

Shapiro really didn't say anything we didn't already know: he hinted that the team really doesn't have the amount of money to take big, huge risks, their drafting before 2008 was poor, but he did say that the success of big-player trades by major league teams is typically no better than Cleveland's big-trade track record. (i.e.: Sabathia, Cliff Lee blockbuster trades).

Otherwise...fans should just come to the games for the love of baseball...not "solely" the win-loss record of the team.

I know he can't name specific potential trades...but, he didn't even indicate the general direction of this off-season, hinting that they have to wait to see if other teams/free agents decide to call the Indians back...or not.

IMHO, in general he really said....not much of anything.

Perhaps I was foolish to expect more. And, not saying the team won't still make necessary moves to upgrade the organization for 2013 and beyond. But...Mark really didn't give me even a flicker of enthusiasm or hope for the Indians future. No passion...no real definitive direction...a pretty vanilla, lifeless interview.

Did any of you see the show? If so...what did you get out of Mark's appearance? Tell me what I missed.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:02 am

I'm looking at the Tribes 40 man roster and realize that three of the pitchers (Tomlin, Wood, Lee) will start the yr on the 60-day DL and one more (Carrasco) will start the season on the 15-day. Then there's Nick Hagadone who is recovering from a self-inflicted broken wrist and is still on the restricted list, I'm not aware of a date the Tribe has to activate him.

The Tribe added Fedroff, Haley, House and Lee to the 40 man roster, which is now full. I'm kind of surprised they added all four to the roster but thought they should consider it.

Tim Fedroff - is pretty much limited to LF / DH but the kid can hit - he's the old adage of simply a baseball player.

Trey Haley - is an flamethrower, he is wild and erratic at times but can wipe ppl out with his upper 90's FB. He's likely to see the mound in Cleveland late summer as a bullpen arm. With the lack of upper echelon pitching prospects the Tribe should / could consider moving Haley back to the starting rotation.

TJ House - really rebounded this yr. House is potentially a mid season addition to the big league staff. House is an interesting LH option for the rotation, his ceiling is probably a 3 starter at best, but he probably develops into 4/5 starter.

CC Lee - is recovering from injury but should add a mid season option. Lee offers a nice FB and different arm angle.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:31 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:
Trey Haley - is an flamethrower, he is wild and erratic at times but can wipe ppl out with his upper 90's FB. He's likely to see the mound in Cleveland late summer as a bullpen arm. With the lack of upper echelon pitching prospects the Tribe should / could consider moving Haley back to the starting rotation.


I am not sure what is up with the player development staff/scouting staff but it appears that every power pitcher gets moved to the starting rotation. We'll see how guys like Brown and Howard progress (and others) but I'm not convinced this staff knows how to evaluate or develop a power pitcher into a ML SP.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:14 pm

I completely agree, hopefully things will change as it seems almost like an assurance there will be an influx of arms into the system at some levels going forward.

Hopefully this focus on the need of young pitching carries over even into the draft and international mkt. The Tribe has to examine their own philosophy on player development, take risks -which have have to some extent- and only develop pitchg. The Tribe has to be aggressive and creative to add talent. IMO one of the best ways to 'level the playing field' is to produce a plethora of pitching. Pitching is an asset and IF this team can begin to develop sheer numbers like the Rays who have produced numerous of their own pitching staff / pitching prospects over the yrs this team can remain competitive even against these bigger mkt clubs.

The Tribe has heavily focused on the center of the diamond players, but has to gain focus developing SP and developing a pipeline of arms to the big club. Major league teams generally consider SP depth 8 pitchers that could contribute in the MLB in any given yr. This club needs 10, not just rotational filler types but a number of 2/3 type starters rounding out the entire rotation.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:18 am

The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:21 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.


Swisher is pretty close to signing with the Red Sox.. It wouldn't be a huge surprise to hear he's signed by Boston before the Winter Meetings begin next week.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:13 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.


15% sounds pretty optimistic to me...i'd say 0.15% chance is more likely (though I would love to get him into Cleveland). 4-year deal with lower annual salaries would be amazing for the Indians, but I don't see why Swisher would agree to that. Gotta imagine some team will give him more years and $14M per. I mean, Hunter just got $13M per for 2 years. Swisher is 6 years or so younger, better, and more versatile. If I were Swisher I'd hold out for a similar deal that Hunter got from the Angels.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:50 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.


Yep, low chance of happening, but the Indians have interest. What will be interesting to see this offseason is who the Indians can match up with on the free agent front this offseason. Let's face it, if the contract is equal and a player has a choice to go to Cleveland or go to NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, etc, they are going to lose out. Overpaying is the only option, and that is something that can often lead to mistakes (Kerry Wood). Gotta find a good fit that they pay a reasonable deal for. They can handle a 3-4 year deal for $10-12M, but is the player the right guy and not a gross overpay? that's the question.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:58 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.


Yep, low chance of happening, but the Indians have interest. What will be interesting to see this offseason is who the Indians can match up with on the free agent front this offseason. Let's face it, if the contract is equal and a player has a choice to go to Cleveland or go to NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, etc, they are going to lose out. Overpaying is the only option, and that is something that can often lead to mistakes (Kerry Wood). Gotta find a good fit that they pay a reasonable deal for. They can handle a 3-4 year deal for $10-12M, but is the player the right guy and not a gross overpay? that's the question.

Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby BrianM » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:30 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:The rumor today is that the Indians have an interest in Nick Swisher. Big picture wise, he's a perfect fit. 1B, OF, SH. He's 32, and would like a 4 year contract. If the Indians want to take the plunge, a 4-year deal, with lower annual salaries, might be good.
However, I think the chances of this actually happening are about 15%.


Yep, low chance of happening, but the Indians have interest. What will be interesting to see this offseason is who the Indians can match up with on the free agent front this offseason. Let's face it, if the contract is equal and a player has a choice to go to Cleveland or go to NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, etc, they are going to lose out. Overpaying is the only option, and that is something that can often lead to mistakes (Kerry Wood). Gotta find a good fit that they pay a reasonable deal for. They can handle a 3-4 year deal for $10-12M, but is the player the right guy and not a gross overpay? that's the question.

Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Ya gotta learn from your mistakes....but we can't know yet if not signing Willingham was a mistake. Lots of writers (specifically in the fantasy baseball sector) seem to think he is still quite the injury risk. I'd be way more comfortable giving a guy like Swisher the extra year or two. He can still play 2 positions, while Willingham can barely play one. I agree with you for the most part though. He was EXACTLY what we needed and we didnt pull the trigger.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:53 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


The thing is though, a guy like Willingham is a player they are not comfortable going 3-4 years on. The injury history is a sizable enough risk where they did not want to go the third year. Had he not had durability problems, then yeah, they'd have given him three years. But of course, if he did not have durability issues, he'd have gotten much more from someone else anyway.

It's an interesting place they put themselves in on these deals. They won't go get the proven guys for 4-5 years.....and the guys that have some knocks they won't go 3 years on either. It's a bad spot to operate in. I understand the rationale of it.....but I guess sometimes you have to take the plunge and make a calculated risk once in awhile.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:16 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.

Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/compa ... jo03.shtml

edit: sorry, that didn't work. Enter Swisher's name to comp. So, 3yrs/$21million for Willingham, 3-4 yrs. $30-$48 million for Swisher.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:28 am

Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.

Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/compa ... jo03.shtml

edit: sorry, that didn't work. Enter Swisher's name to comp. So, 3yrs/$21million for Willingham, 3-4 yrs. $30-$48 million for Swisher.


Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:50 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.

Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/compa ... jo03.shtml

edit: sorry, that didn't work. Enter Swisher's name to comp. So, 3yrs/$21million for Willingham, 3-4 yrs. $30-$48 million for Swisher.


Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...


Swisher being part of the building of the Indians for 2013 has about as much chance of happening as RustyMike making a claim that Mr Dolan has been running his baseball team the right way all along and that Mark Shapiro & Chris Antonetti are both fabulous baseball executives with mental faculties that rival anyone else's in baseball IQ..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:36 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.

Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/compa ... jo03.shtml

edit: sorry, that didn't work. Enter Swisher's name to comp. So, 3yrs/$21million for Willingham, 3-4 yrs. $30-$48 million for Swisher.


Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...


Swisher being part of the building of the Indians for 2013 has about as much chance of happening as RustyMike making a claim that Mr Dolan has been running his baseball team the right way all along and that Mark Shapiro & Chris Antonetti are both fabulous baseball executives with mental faculties that rival anyone else's in baseball IQ..


Well after Mark Shapiro's latest foot in mouth comment I doubt many people will disagree with Ironmike
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:50 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Oh, so now they can go 3-4 yrs. Amazing. What a difference a year makes. They're going to pay a guy who's not as good of a "fit" as Willingham more for 2 yrs of a multi year contract than they would have for 3 yrs of Willingham. I know it's old news, it's repetitive, I apologize, but this bugs the livin shite out of me.


Are you referring to Swisher here? Cause he's as good if not a better fit for the Indians than Willingham was last winter. He's also better. Since 2006, Swisher has only once had an fWAR under 3.2....Willingham has only once had an fWAR above 3.2 in that time frame and it was this year. Again, WAR isn't the only thing to look at but something I bet the Tribe puts value in. Suppose you can call Willingham a better fit in that he was a lot cheaper and would fit into the budget? But as far as the player goes, give me Swisher over Willingham everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Not a RH bat but switch-hitter who hits lefties well. Also Swisher is a year younger than Willingham was last winter. Still think it's a moot point as can't see us landing him (though guess never say never), but again choice between Willingham and Swisher is pretty clear towards Swisher, IMO at least. Like Willingham a lot (and did last winter), so not just hating on Willingham here.

Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/compa ... jo03.shtml

edit: sorry, that didn't work. Enter Swisher's name to comp. So, 3yrs/$21million for Willingham, 3-4 yrs. $30-$48 million for Swisher.


Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...

Good points but...you like WAR, I like OPS+, so using OPS+ they're pretty evenly matched. Willingham out performed Swisher last year, which is when we would have been paying him. He played in 3 fewer games. He'll cost a boatload less, money saved that could be spent on other FA's (SP?). I like Swisher & given the same contract I'd take Swisher but the money could be so radically different it negates any slight (IMO) value advantage tha Swisher has. As you point out, Willingham doesn't play every game, which sucks, but Grady played every game until he got hurt & then he didn't play any. When it comes to injuries(IMO), it's a crapshoot.

If Antonetti is reading, I'm not going to complain if you sign Swisher. He's a Buckeye, use it in promotions.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:48 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...

Good points but...you like WAR, I like OPS+, so using OPS+ they're pretty evenly matched. Willingham out performed Swisher last year, which is when we would have been paying him. He played in 3 fewer games. He'll cost a boatload less, money saved that could be spent on other FA's (SP?). I like Swisher & given the same contract I'd take Swisher but the money could be so radically different it negates any slight (IMO) value advantage tha Swisher has. As you point out, Willingham doesn't play every game, which sucks, but Grady played every game until he got hurt & then he didn't play any. When it comes to injuries(IMO), it's a crapshoot.

If Antonetti is reading, I'm not going to complain if you sign Swisher. He's a Buckeye, use it in promotions.


Well in fairness you really can't use Willingham's 2012 season as the Tribe didn't have that info to go on last winter when they were deciding whether to give 3 years. Hindsight is 20-20.

I like OPS+ too (a lot) and Willingham had been solid in it leading up to this year (then he really took off), but defense still matters when determing how much money to give out and determing a player's fit. I also agree injuries can be a crapshoot, but I'd rather gamble on a player that's proven he can stay healhty than a guy that can't.

Also, since the Tribe had signed Grady last year it sort of made Willingham a tough fit. Remember there was talks of him playing 1B or even Brantley getting time in at 1B. Obviously we know Grady went down early and never played, which would have left LF wide open for Willingham, but at the time Willingham was a man without a real position for the Tribe. Not trying to give Antonetti a pass here as he made a very bad decision giving Grady $5M, which lead to Willingham seeming like a tough fit. But can understand why Antonetti wouldn't go 3 years and probably felt he was a tough fit (again, don't agree with it, but can understand it somewhat). With Swisher this winter you have LF clearly open, 1B open, DH open, and possibly RF open (should the Tribe deal Choo).

Also, I may be way off here but I'm convinced part of Willingham's relunctance to come here was because he wasn't guarnteed an OF spot like he was in Minny. Obviously getting 3 years was big for him, but according to Antonetti we offered more per year in our 2 year deal (could just be talk though). In 2 years Willingham could have been a free agent and gotten another multi-year deal and maybe made more money (especially if he still had the year he had in Minny). In Cleveland he was looking at a timeshare between LF, 1B, and DH...something I'm sure many free agents aren't that fond of. Hard to convince a guy to come here and say he's a fit when you talk of him playing a position that he has never started at in his MLB career (speaking of 1B for Willingham). Again, not letting Antonetti off the hook. He should have made it clear Wilingham would be the LF (maybe DH some days) and that Brantley would be the bench guy/fill-in for Grady in CF but never seemed to give off that vibe, at least I never got that.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...

Good points but...you like WAR, I like OPS+, so using OPS+ they're pretty evenly matched. Willingham out performed Swisher last year, which is when we would have been paying him. He played in 3 fewer games. He'll cost a boatload less, money saved that could be spent on other FA's (SP?). I like Swisher & given the same contract I'd take Swisher but the money could be so radically different it negates any slight (IMO) value advantage tha Swisher has. As you point out, Willingham doesn't play every game, which sucks, but Grady played every game until he got hurt & then he didn't play any. When it comes to injuries(IMO), it's a crapshoot.

If Antonetti is reading, I'm not going to complain if you sign Swisher. He's a Buckeye, use it in promotions.


Well in fairness you really can't use Willingham's 2012 season as the Tribe didn't have that info to go on last winter when they were deciding whether to give 3 years. Hindsight is 20-20.

I like OPS+ too (a lot) and Willingham had been solid in it leading up to this year (then he really took off), but defense still matters when determing how much money to give out and determing a player's fit. I also agree injuries can be a crapshoot, but I'd rather gamble on a player that's proven he can stay healhty than a guy that can't.

Also, since the Tribe had signed Grady last year it sort of made Willingham a tough fit. Remember there was talks of him playing 1B or even Brantley getting time in at 1B. Obviously we know Grady went down early and never played, which would have left LF wide open for Willingham, but at the time Willingham was a man without a real position for the Tribe. Not trying to give Antonetti a pass here as he made a very bad decision giving Grady $5M, which lead to Willingham seeming like a tough fit. But can understand why Antonetti wouldn't go 3 years and probably felt he was a tough fit (again, don't agree with it, but can understand it somewhat). With Swisher this winter you have LF clearly open, 1B open, DH open, and possibly RF open (should the Tribe deal Choo).

Also, I may be way off here but I'm convinced part of Willingham's relunctance to come here was because he wasn't guarnteed an OF spot like he was in Minny. Obviously getting 3 years was big for him, but according to Antonetti we offered more per year in our 2 year deal (could just be talk though). In 2 years Willingham could have been a free agent and gotten another multi-year deal and maybe made more money (especially if he still had the year he had in Minny). In Cleveland he was looking at a timeshare between LF, 1B, and DH...something I'm sure many free agents aren't that fond of. Hard to convince a guy to come here and say he's a fit when you talk of him playing a position that he has never started at in his MLB career (speaking of 1B for Willingham). Again, not letting Antonetti off the hook. He should have made it clear Wilingham would be the LF (maybe DH some days) and that Brantley would be the bench guy/fill-in for Grady in CF but never seemed to give off that vibe, at least I never got that.

We pretty much agree. What gets my goat is the number of people who aren't MLB GM's who both wanted the Tribe to sign Willingham & didn't want to sign Grady. Antonetti might be the only guy in Cleve who thought that was a good idea. Plus, of course, we would have gotten Willingham's production for only $2 million more than what we paid for Grady's non-existent production. Quite a gain for 2 mil.

Also recognize the fact that we're in a lot better financial(payroll) shape this year & that Swisher might cost less than Pronk did last year. The sad part is that we could possibly have both guys for that $2 million more than we paid for Grady & Pronk last year. That fact just eats at my guts.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:22 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Yes, really.

Swisher:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4599&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/ ... R19801125A

Willingham:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=WILLINGHA19790217A

So, based off your link and mine....

Heading into free agency last year Willingham had a career 14.8 fWAR, 12.8 bWAR, and 12.9 WARP.

Heading into free agency Swisher (at a year younger) has a career 26.3 fWAR, 17.9 bWAR, and 25.0 WARP...

Not to mention Swisher has played in 148 games or more in each of the last 7 seasons....Willingham has done that zero times in the last 7 seasons (including this past season). Not arguing about whether we were wrong in not giving Willingham 3 years, but Swisher is the better fit based on skill, position flexibility, youth (though only 1 year), durability, and defense.

I'd agree with a better argument that both guys are fits though...Willingham in LF this past year, moving to DH with Swisher taking over...

Good points but...you like WAR, I like OPS+, so using OPS+ they're pretty evenly matched. Willingham out performed Swisher last year, which is when we would have been paying him. He played in 3 fewer games. He'll cost a boatload less, money saved that could be spent on other FA's (SP?). I like Swisher & given the same contract I'd take Swisher but the money could be so radically different it negates any slight (IMO) value advantage tha Swisher has. As you point out, Willingham doesn't play every game, which sucks, but Grady played every game until he got hurt & then he didn't play any. When it comes to injuries(IMO), it's a crapshoot.

If Antonetti is reading, I'm not going to complain if you sign Swisher. He's a Buckeye, use it in promotions.


Well in fairness you really can't use Willingham's 2012 season as the Tribe didn't have that info to go on last winter when they were deciding whether to give 3 years. Hindsight is 20-20.

I like OPS+ too (a lot) and Willingham had been solid in it leading up to this year (then he really took off), but defense still matters when determing how much money to give out and determing a player's fit. I also agree injuries can be a crapshoot, but I'd rather gamble on a player that's proven he can stay healhty than a guy that can't.

Also, since the Tribe had signed Grady last year it sort of made Willingham a tough fit. Remember there was talks of him playing 1B or even Brantley getting time in at 1B. Obviously we know Grady went down early and never played, which would have left LF wide open for Willingham, but at the time Willingham was a man without a real position for the Tribe. Not trying to give Antonetti a pass here as he made a very bad decision giving Grady $5M, which lead to Willingham seeming like a tough fit. But can understand why Antonetti wouldn't go 3 years and probably felt he was a tough fit (again, don't agree with it, but can understand it somewhat). With Swisher this winter you have LF clearly open, 1B open, DH open, and possibly RF open (should the Tribe deal Choo).

Also, I may be way off here but I'm convinced part of Willingham's relunctance to come here was because he wasn't guarnteed an OF spot like he was in Minny. Obviously getting 3 years was big for him, but according to Antonetti we offered more per year in our 2 year deal (could just be talk though). In 2 years Willingham could have been a free agent and gotten another multi-year deal and maybe made more money (especially if he still had the year he had in Minny). In Cleveland he was looking at a timeshare between LF, 1B, and DH...something I'm sure many free agents aren't that fond of. Hard to convince a guy to come here and say he's a fit when you talk of him playing a position that he has never started at in his MLB career (speaking of 1B for Willingham). Again, not letting Antonetti off the hook. He should have made it clear Wilingham would be the LF (maybe DH some days) and that Brantley would be the bench guy/fill-in for Grady in CF but never seemed to give off that vibe, at least I never got that.

We pretty much agree. What gets my goat is the number of people who aren't MLB GM's who both wanted the Tribe to sign Willingham & didn't want to sign Grady. Antonetti might be the only guy in Cleve who thought that was a good idea. Plus, of course, we would have gotten Willingham's production for only $2 million more than what we paid for Grady's non-existent production. Quite a gain for 2 mil.

Also recognize the fact that we're in a lot better financial(payroll) shape this year & that Swisher might cost less than Pronk did last year. The sad part is that we could possibly have both guys for that $2 million more than we paid for Grady & Pronk last year. That fact just eats at my guts.


Not sure what Antonetti was thinking but gotta wonder if he signed Grady for fear of ending up with no one. Grady did sign over 3 weeks before Willingham, and many of us were surprised in December when dollar numbers were being mentioned for Willingham (most felt they were too low). I wonder if the market surprised Antonetti too. May have worried about what the season would look like if he ended up with none of Grady, Willingham, Cuddyer, or Beltran....sadly we got to see that anyways and it was a 90+ loss season.

I know some on here got excited when Tony mentioned he's heard the Tribe will be more aggressive this offseason....not sure that's necessarily a good thing. They were aggressive last year and jumped the gun on Grady and it pretty much screwed everything up after that.

This probably fits better in the other thread but after what Upton just got from the Braves I really think Swisher could end up with $15+M a year. He's better than Upton and while he is older, not like he's that old. 5yr/$90M for Swisher IMO is a better deal than 5yr/$75M for Upton (or maybe less worse deal is better way of saying it). I don't think he would be in the wrong to ask for 6yr and $100 now even (too much IMO but still).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:31 am

As we enter the Christmas week, the Projected Indians 2013 line up appears to be oddly different from the guys who wandered through a very good first half of 2012 and fell apart after the All Star Break.. The biggest challenge for this off season was how to resurrect a starting pitching staff, put impact hitters at corner positions and improve the last three spots on the roster. If the season were to start today, the Indians projected 25 man roster may look like:

Position Players
C Carlos Santana SH/Lou Marson RH
1B Mark Reynolds RH
2B Jason Kipnis LH
3B Lonnie Chisenhall LH /Mike Aviles RH
SS Asdrubal Cabrera SH
LF Thomas Neal RH/Tim Fedroff LH
CF Michael Brantley LH
RF Drew Stubbs RH
*note: Two additional players may be selected from:
Yan Gomes, Cord Phelps, Ezequiel Carrera, Chris McGuiness & Mike McDade

Starting Pitching Staff
Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Zach McAllister
Trevor Bauer
Josh Tomlin/Corey Kluber
*note: Two or three of these players will be vying for the fifth spot in the rotation:
Carlos Carrasco, JeanMar Gomez, TJ House & Danny Salazar

Relief Pitching Staff
Chris Perez CL
Vinnie Pestano SU
Joe Smith MR
Bryan Shaw MR
Cody Allen MR
Nick Hagadone MR
Blake Wood LR
*note: Two or three of these players will be vying for a spot in the pen:
Scott Barnes, David Huff, Frank Herrman, Matt Albers, CC Lee & Trey Haley

When you look at this squad, it's clear to see the every day lineup is going to have a helluva time getting leads, scoring runs and, generally, being able to compete offensively against their AL Central rivals. There is no doubt that one big bat is needed and the trio of kids, Kipnis, Chiz and Carlos, all have to have stellar/breakout offensive years. This will truly lengthen this lineup. The Indians should be able to count on consistent performance from Reynolds/Stubbs/Droobs and others. Left Field remains a mess with no solution in sight..that's a problem...

The starting pitching staff is counting on the top two guys, Ubaldo and Justin, to have bounce back years. If these two guys can find the magic, this would be a much stronger starting staff. There is optimism about the inclusion of Trevor Bauer into the # 4 spot. It would be a HUGE improvement to the starting staff if he pitches like the ACE he can become.. Josh Tomlin & Carlos Carrasco's return will probably be delayed until after the All Star Break and mid May respectively. Tomlin's 2012 was a nightmare season as he battled a wrist injury followed by the elbow surgery. Carrasco recovery from surgery had him pitching against live competition in the minor league play offs. The new CC was shut down for the winter and will be brought along slowly entering the 2013 season. On a positive note, prior to his surgery, CC was starting to really become an upper rotation type pitcher. Danny Salazar is the wild card of this group. If he can harness the lightning bolt in his right arm, he could help this squad, some. Too many three to five game losing streaks have to be avoided with this mostly young starting staff. They can expect to get a massive amount of help from the bullpen which is solid top to bottom and has depth. It will be tested in 2013..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:19 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:As we enter the Christmas week, the Projected Indians 2013 line up appears to be oddly different from the guys who wandered through a very good first half of 2012 and fell apart after the All Star Break.. The biggest challenge for this off season was how to resurrect a starting pitching staff, put impact hitters at corner positions and improve the last three spots on the roster. If the season were to start today, the Indians projected 25 man roster may look like:

Position Players
C Carlos Santana SH/Lou Marson RH
1B Mark Reynolds RH
2B Jason Kipnis LH
3B Lonnie Chisenhall LH /Mike Aviles RH
SS Asdrubal Cabrera SH
LF Thomas Neal RH/Tim Fedroff LH
CF Michael Brantley LH
RF Drew Stubbs RH
*note: Two additional players may be selected from:
Yan Gomes, Cord Phelps, Ezequiel Carrera, Chris McGuiness & Mike McDade

Starting Pitching Staff
Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Zach McAllister
Trevor Bauer
Josh Tomlin/Corey Kluber
*note: Two or three of these players will be vying for the fifth spot in the rotation:
Carlos Carrasco, JeanMar Gomez, TJ House & Danny Salazar

Relief Pitching Staff
Chris Perez CL
Vinnie Pestano SU
Joe Smith MR
Bryan Shaw MR
Cody Allen MR
Nick Hagadone MR
Blake Wood LR
*note: Two or three of these players will be vying for a spot in the pen:
Scott Barnes, David Huff, Frank Herrman, Matt Albers, CC Lee & Trey Haley

When you look at this squad, it's clear to see the every day lineup is going to have a helluva time getting leads, scoring runs and, generally, being able to compete offensively against their AL Central rivals. There is no doubt that one big bat is needed and the trio of kids, Kipnis, Chiz and Carlos, all have to have stellar/breakout offensive years. This will truly lengthen this lineup. The Indians should be able to count on consistent performance from Reynolds/Stubbs/Droobs and others. Left Field remains a mess with no solution in sight..that's a problem...

The starting pitching staff is counting on the top two guys, Ubaldo and Justin, to have bounce back years. If these two guys can find the magic, this would be a much stronger starting staff. There is optimism about the inclusion of Trevor Bauer into the # 4 spot. It would be a HUGE improvement to the starting staff if he pitches like the ACE he can become.. Josh Tomlin & Carlos Carrasco's return will probably be delayed until after the All Star Break and mid May respectively. Tomlin's 2012 was a nightmare season as he battled a wrist injury followed by the elbow surgery. Carrasco recovery from surgery had him pitching against live competition in the minor league play offs. The new CC was shut down for the winter and will be brought along slowly entering the 2013 season. On a positive note, prior to his surgery, CC was starting to really become an upper rotation type pitcher. Danny Salazar is the wild card of this group. If he can harness the lightning bolt in his right arm, he could help this squad, some. Too many three to five game losing streaks have to be avoided with this mostly young starting staff. They can expect to get a massive amount of help from the bullpen which is solid top to bottom and has depth. It will be tested in 2013..


Think Carrera and Albers both are on the club as of now, and think Carrera is your starter in RF (or I guess LF). Both are out of options. Don't think the Tribe would have traded for Albers who is arby eligible to not use him, and don't think the Tribe would have DFAed Canzler (who had an option left) over Carrera if they didn't think he could play for them. I like Neal but think he is back in AAA..or should I say back in the minors as he didn't play any at AAA last year.

RF or LF is definitely a blackhole right now...no doubt about that. Even Shelley Duncan would look like an improvement over what we currently have for one of the corner spots. Think this will change though, evne if it's not Swisher.


Back of the rotation looks a bit thin. I still think there's a chance Bauer opens in AAA too. Hoping Kluber steps up this spring and can get a spot. Would like another starter added too via free agency/trade as well to maybe take that 3-spot and bump z-Mac down a spot.

Your list shows how much bullpen depth we have too. I still say moving Perez is something the Tribe really needs to try and do. Don't do it if the value isn't there, but that $7M he'll make would look a lot better going towards a SP imo, plus we have enough depth to get by without him.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:22 pm

Never thought I'd say this, but,,,, :surprised

I raise a frosty mug to toast Antonetti, Shapiro, Francona, and (cough) the Dolans for signing Nick Swisher.

I thought the chances were slim, but they got the job done. Yes, they overpaid a bit, but we've overpaid for the results we got from Sizemore and Hafner too.

The batting order is shaping up. Need to find a veteran DH, but I can live with this lineup.

Need to find a SP and LHRP, but we have plenty of trade ammo left too.

Cheers.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:15 pm

The money for Swisher is probably related to the new revenue from the acquisition of TV rights by Fox from STO. I don't think signing Swisher puts the Indians into contention next year, so naturally I'm not enthusiastic about the signing but the Indians had some money to play with. It's now gone, but it's better than the owners keeping it.

I'd like to know how the Indians can get comfortable with 4 (and likely 5) years of Nick Swisher, when they couldn't get comfortable with Josh Willingham for 3 last year. In retrospect, passing on Willingham was a 35 million dollar mistake. There's an element of this Swisher deal that looks like a knee-jerk reaction to missing on Willingham last year. In fairness, I didn't like signing Willingham last year, but that's mainly b/c I don't think the Indians should be playing in free agency for multi-year deals unless it'll truly put them into playoff contention.

Regardless, I think the key factor here is that a few months ago Antonetti looked at himself in the mirror and realized he may lose his job if he has another bad year in Cleveland b/c the first two were bad. At this point, I don't think he really cares about the 4th, and likely 5th, year of the Swisher contract. He wants to keep his job now. Heck, the end of Swisher's contract is a problem he'd probably consider himself lucky to have b/c it'd mean he'd still have a job.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby artgold » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:25 pm

Team seems to be evolving OK to me, with a combination of some decent veterans, young veterans and kids with potential.

Signings so far seem to make the overall team more competitive and interesting, if not a contender. At this point, I think having a team capable of winning 80-85 games would help get some fan interest, and who knows, maybe one of the real young kids catches fire.

A good part of this is about sparking fan interest, and the recent signings and trade should help in that area.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:03 pm

Swisher is a good addition to this lineup and team in general. He's not better than Choo, but Choo would've been gone anyway. Also, that vesting option is when Swisher reaches 550 PA's and passes his physical, so it's not a done deal at all.

What I like about the signing is that aside from his skillset, Antonetti didn't just bank on next year but the next three to four years. I think that's our window here with some guys from the minors hopefully coming through and some of the younger players on our rosters having found their niche.

I also don't understand why we still dwell on Willingham when we apparently didn't have the money to spend on him and people tend always leave this out: he's a freaking DH! Yes he can hit, but he's not that good to warrant that type of contract without any positional value. We know the Indians are big on that and rightfully so as it adds alot of flexibility (Swisher could move to 1B in a pinch).

Also, Swisher gets $11M next season, so it seems like there's still some money left to play with. Smart move.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby danh8 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:17 pm

I'm sure we'll continue to make moves and addtions ...but, in looking at our outfield situation now ..it's safe to assume that Swisher locks down RF, Brantley can play either CF, or LF very capably ...and Drew Stubbs can field any of the OF positons better than anybody we have. Now, where I'm going here is looking at Drew Stubbs splits, he's very good against LH pitchers and stuggles mightily against RH pitchers. For his career, nealry a 100 point diff ... .288 (vs. LHP), .196 (vs. RHP) .. now, whre I'm going here is to try and find capable platoon partners with Stubbs. Tim Fedroff comes to mind that is already on our 40 man roster. Kid is a lefthanded bat that has hit RH pitching to the tune of around .360 last season .. It leads me to thinking we start against LHP an OF of Brantley in left, Stubbs in center, and Swisher in right. Against RHP, we go Fedroff in left, Brantley in center, and Swisher in right ...

Pure genius, correct ?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:57 pm

danh8 wrote:I'm sure we'll continue to make moves and addtions ...but, in looking at our outfield situation now ..it's safe to assume that Swisher locks down RF, Brantley can play either CF, or LF very capably ...and Drew Stubbs can field any of the OF positons better than anybody we have. Now, where I'm going here is looking at Drew Stubbs splits, he's very good against LH pitchers and stuggles mightily against RH pitchers. For his career, nealry a 100 point diff ... .288 (vs. LHP), .196 (vs. RHP) .. now, whre I'm going here is to try and find capable platoon partners with Stubbs. Tim Fedroff comes to mind that is already on our 40 man roster. Kid is a lefthanded bat that has hit RH pitching to the tune of around .360 last season .. It leads me to thinking we start against LHP an OF of Brantley in left, Stubbs in center, and Swisher in right. Against RHP, we go Fedroff in left, Brantley in center, and Swisher in right ...

Pure genius, correct ?


A platoon could certainly work. It's also why I don't necessarily want Antonetti to sign/trade for a DH. That open lineup spot gives us a lot of flexibility and options to mix and match.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:02 am

danh8 wrote:I'm sure we'll continue to make moves and addtions ...but, in looking at our outfield situation now ..it's safe to assume that Swisher locks down RF, Brantley can play either CF, or LF very capably ...and Drew Stubbs can field any of the OF positons better than anybody we have. Now, where I'm going here is looking at Drew Stubbs splits, he's very good against LH pitchers and stuggles mightily against RH pitchers. For his career, nealry a 100 point diff ... .288 (vs. LHP), .196 (vs. RHP) .. now, whre I'm going here is to try and find capable platoon partners with Stubbs. Tim Fedroff comes to mind that is already on our 40 man roster. Kid is a lefthanded bat that has hit RH pitching to the tune of around .360 last season .. It leads me to thinking we start against LHP an OF of Brantley in left, Stubbs in center, and Swisher in right. Against RHP, we go Fedroff in left, Brantley in center, and Swisher in right ...

Pure genius, correct ?


The splits do point in the direction you've illustrated, however, your platoon involves a position change, so, it would technically be called an outfield rotation. What the flexibility of having three switch hitters in the line up "does" is provide the means for Tito to put a team on the field that has a better chance to win every night..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:59 am

I'm interested in seeing where Francona ends up hitting Swisher. i know the Tribe showed a lineup on the scoreboard when courting him showing him in the cleanup spot, but personally think he'd be a better fit in the 2-hole. Would kinda like to see:

1. Brantley - LF
2. Swisher - RF
3. Cabrera - SS
4. Santana - C
5. Kipnis - 2B
6. Reynolds - 1B
7. Chisenhall - 3B
8. Stubbs - CF
9. Gomes/Aviles/McGuiness - DH

Would like to see Swisher's OBP in front of a guy like Cabrera and then Santana. Hit 2nd a lot this year too.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:16 am

I'm liking the deal. Choo vs. Swisher for this year is probably close to a wash (I think, given his defense, that Swisher is actually better, but you don't even have to argue that to like the moves made), but we also get him for 3 (maybe 4) more years. And there's Bauer and Albers contributing in the future. It's a move that helps us both immediately and in the future. You can't like this move enough.

I'd call this close to a perfect off-season if we manage to trade some of our new bullpen depth for a starter like Capuano/Porcello. And maybe you can add a DH on the cheap if you want a little extra offensive firepower (though it's not remotely necessary).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:06 pm

This is about as good an offseason as we can realistically hope for around here.

That doesn't change the fact that over the last two years the Angels signed Albert Pujols and Josh Hamilton. The Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder, and they still have Victor Martinez. CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee are still pitching for other teams.

We got Swisher, Stubbs, Reynolds, a good young starting prospect, a backup shortstop, and a couple of middle relievers. In exchange the only things of value we gave up was Choo's 2013 season and a lot of Dolan's money. And we're thrilled because it's a big improvement over last year when we got Kotchman, Lowe, Cunningham, Canzler, Neal, and resigned Grady Sizemore.

At least we can shoot for .500 this year.
Last edited by Prosecutor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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