Fixing the Lineup...

[GeronimoSon]

Lou Marson actually drove a ball to RCF for a three base hit, that is a good sign. Charlie Manuel always felt he had the ability to hit 20 home runs per year. Marson says it is hard to know the strike zone with only 15 AB's per month. Keep driving the ball to RCF and Manny will play him more.

For those of you who did not watch Mark Trumbo hit 2 home runs last night, one to RCF and one to dead CF watch the video and then watch Duncan try to hit.

Marson always goes to RCF.. it's the squaring up of the ball on the barrel of the bat that is the issue with Marson.. With more consistent AB's, that shouldn't be an issue.. but, that's unlikely.. A backup backstop's first job is handling the pitching staff..anything after than is grave.. Last night, Marson provided the Au Jous...

[Prosecutor]

I wouldn't call drafting a 22-year-old college junior a "big acquisition". He hasn't even shown he can succeed in A ball yet, much less make it to the bigs. This guy could be the next Trevor Crowe, who was definitely not a big acquisition. The Indians track record on drafting outfielders is abysmal; hopefully Naquin breaks that losing streak.

Besides, Brantley is playing very well defensively and has a 13-game hitting streak. He's also starting to steal some bases. His entire game has improved since being moved out of the leadoff spot - offense, defense, and base running. They finally stopped trying to pound a square peg into a round hole and put him in the 6th or 7th spot in the order, where he's thriving. All you had to do was look at his splits from last year where he hit twice as well with men on base than with the bases empty.

After getting unacceptable results from both Brantley and Damon in the leadoff role, Manny finally broke down and moved Choo to leadoff and the results for both Choo and Brantley have been outstanding. This move was made possible by the emergence of Kipnis as a legitimate bat that can be used in the #2 spot or even #3 like last night.

By the way, when was the last time the Tribe had a guy leading the team in HR's, RBI's, and stolen bases? Probably Grady a few years ago. In fact, Kipnis is leading all A.L. second basemen in those categories. Not to mention he's is in his first full season as a major leaguer. Wow.

[ironmike]

Geronimo, that is why the word "drove" was in my post to describe his hit. It means squaring up the ball on the barrel.

He doesn't often "drive" the ball to the RCF gap.

[Prosecutor]

Geronimo, that is why the word "drove" was in my post to describe his hit. It means squaring up the ball on the barrel. He doesn't often "drive" the ball to the RCF gap.

Listen, mike, Marson's job is to catch against left-handed starters to give Santana a break. He excels in that role. He's an excellent defensive catcher who hit .297/.794 against left-handed pitching in 2011. So far this year he's hitting .300/.941 against lefties. What is the problem?

Yes, most of his hits are singles to right field. He's not a power hitter. He's a very good defensive catcher who hits around .300 against lefties, which is very useful on a team that's offensively unbalanced and has trouble generating offense against left-handed pitching. He also runs much better than your average catcher and can steal a base on occasion.

Marson is outstanding in his role. Sorry he doesn't get a lot of doubles and triples to right-center. He's a backup catcher. How many backup catchers consistently drive the ball into the gaps? If they did, they wouldn't be backups.

This thread is titled "Fixing the Lineup". Marson is not a problem that needs to be fixed. He might be the best backup catcher in the league considering his offense, defense, and base running. As long as you don't ask him to hit right-handers and don't expect a lot of home runs, he's great. Hell, the guy got hit in the face and played with stitches in his mouth. Leave him alone. Left field is what needs fixed.

[Bearcatbob]

June 13: 1b and LF are simple black holes in the lineup. Also, the Chiz kid after a quick start is lost. Throw in a broken Sizemore and something has to change.

For the life of me I do not know why a Matt LaPorta bat is worse in either left or 1b than what we are getting.

The fuse on the "change" bomb has got to be getting short.

Bob

[criznit2009]

As of now I am SICK of Kotchman - when Hanny comes back - give either him or Lopez the job at first. Chiz clearly isn't ready to play ML ball IMO. So once Hanny returns plug him at 3rd and Lopez at 1B please. Kotchman can still pinch hit for Duncan/Damon (ugh.) too when needed... Oh and why weren't we able to end up with Abreu again?

Seriously Damon, KOTCHMAN and Duncan are wrecking this team. Add to it the only HR power is coming from Kipnis, the wheels might fall off sooner then later. Time for everyday playing time for Lopez at 1st , Chiz starts everyday at 3rd till Hanny is back (which will be very soon) and Kotchman rides the pine and comes in as a defensive replacement - aka he is now our infield Cunningham.

Time is see if Lopez can help - can't do much worse espesically at the plate then Casey. Oh and also the whole Santana at 1B and sweet Lou at catcher could be mixed in as well.

NO MORE EVERYDAY KOTCHMAN - Lopez's gets his everyday shot now and by now I mean when Hanny returns - also Donald should be considered for a recall to the ML team.

[Bearcatbob]

criznit - wow - I think I agree completely. Kotchman does not even look like a hitter to me. He seems to swat at the ball. Damon needs to go home and be dad..

Bob

[ironmike]

Hermie, you are the stat guy here ... what is the Indians record when they score less than 3 runs per game?

[ironmike]

Regarding Marson, excellent catcher who does not get enough AB's to settle in and feel confident. However, a prerequisite for a ML player should be the ability to take a pitch on the outside part of the plate and hit the ball hard to the opposite field. Charlie Manuel stressed this as the number one component of being a big league hitter.

Just look at this pupils when he was with the Indians. Thome, Belle, Lofton & Manny's strengths were hitting the ball hard the opposite way. Thomes' longest HR on to Eagle Ave was hit to the left side of the flag pole, Manny hit a ton of HR's at the Jake to RCF. Don't see many guys on our current roster or in our organization who can do this. Sorry, it very well maybe coaching.

It's obvious players don't work on this. Duncan was the IL Player of the Year and can't take the ball the other way, ditto Canzler, ditto LaPorta. Watching these players it becomes crystal clear how the might translate as regulars at the ML level.

Duncan does not deserve to be on our roster. Regarding Marson, not picking on him, just pointing out he's gotta hit at least .250, he's capable of it.

[Prosecutor]

I'm in total agreement on the importance of being able to hit to the opposite field. Last night Joey Votto hit a double and two singles to left. The night before that it was a two-run homer to left off Sipp.

Miguel Cabrera homered to right and also doubled into the right field corner in the last Detroit series. Konerko was also hitting to right when we played the Sox. These are the best hitters in baseball, and what sets them apart is their ability to go the other way with power, especially with two strikes.

So why doesn't Shelley Duncan do that? Because he can't. He's just not the pure hitter these guys are. Few players are. Sorry, but there's nothing to be done about it other than try and draft somebody you can develop into the next Thome or Belle.

Marson just doesn't have opposite field power. Name me a backup catcher who can hit .250 with opposite field power. Any catcher who can do that is starting and probably an All-Star candidate. I'm fine with Marson hitting .290 against lefties like he did last year with no power and playing great defense. Backup catcher is not why the Indians are in second place.

Choo has been having a lot of success hitting to the opposite field lately. I wish Santana would stop being such a dead pull hitter. He'd do better by waiting longer on the pitch and hitting up the middle and to left occasionally, IMO.

[Prosecutor]

criznit - wow - I think I agree completely. Kotchman does not even look like a hitter to me. He seems to swat at the ball. Damon needs to go home and be dad..

Bob

Damon was pitiful last night both at the plate and in the field. That ball Votto hit should have been caught. There have been a number of those balls that Damon missed. He really has trouble with balls he has to go back on. He's not bad coming in or going sideways but when he has to turn his back to the plate he's a disaster.

Kotchman does appear to be defensively swatting at the ball rather than attacking it. I agree, it's time to get Lopez in there everyday. Seeing him take a 100 mph fastball over the fence in left was impressive. Kotchman couldn't catch up to that pitch in a million years.

The Indians are 9-20 in games where they fail to hit a home run, which means they're 23-9 in games where they hit one. i know that's simplistic, but this team definitely needs more punch in the lineup. Getting Lopez in there every day would help, and also getting Hafner back. Hell, I'm ready to bring up Goedert and try him in left. How much worse can he be than Damon? I'm for putting Hanny at 3rd, Lopez at 1st, and Goedert in left. Chiz can DH against right-handers until Pronk gets back.

It would also be nice if Asdrubal would start going deep once in a while. What happened to the power he showed last year?

[GeronimoSon]

This lineup is BROKEN.. Manny Acta looks down his bench (and in his starting lineup) and sees:

-Aaron Cunningham.. an adequate defensive OF'er who can't hit..
-Shelly Duncan.. an inadequate defensive OF'er/1B who can't hit..
-Lou Marson.. an adequate defensive C who can't hit..
-Jose Lopez.. a barely adequate defensive IF'er who can hit..

-The Casey Kotchman experiment..is a failure. He can't hit..he doesn't drive in runs.. he doesn't take walks and he doesn't score runs. His defense is good, but not good enough to overcome being unable to contribute in a meaningful way offensively.

-The Johnny Damon experiment.. is a failure. He can't hit.. he doesn't drive in runs.. he doesn't take walks.. he doesn't score runs. His defense is inadequate. He can't throw the ball and isn't getting better after missing spring training.

-Lonnie Chisenhall.. needs to be back in AAA.. his pitch recognition is horrendous and pitchers at the ML know it.

-Both Shelly Duncan and Aaron Cunningham could be DFA'd with little or no concern about ANYONE picking them up on waivers. These two guys are the proverbial lumps of coal in your Christmas stocking..

-I don't get why Matt LaPorta was brought up with the intention of NOT playing him. Both LF and 1B are places he could play and wasn't given the opportunity, meanwhile, those two slots produced garbage during his stay. LaPorta had 11 at bats in three games (of eight) he was here. Two games were against left handed starters (2-7). The third game was against a right handed starter (0-4). The fourth game up was against a left handed starter, however, LaPorta was not in the lineup...(a 7-5 loss to the Tigers) against the left handed starter, Casey Crosby, but, instead, Manny decided against it... LaPorta didn't have another at bat the rest of his stay in Cleveland.

THIS IS BAD BASEBALL MANAGEMENT.

[BrianM]

Slightly off topic, but not really...Thome has played really well since being activated for the Phillies. Batting over .400 with a couple of homeruns. Im listening to a CBS fantasy podcast, and they mentioned that he really doesn't have a role with an NL team and could very well be traded if his role ends up being nothing more than pinch hitting. He's not right handed, but he is cheap and will be better than Hafner assuming he stays healthy. With a thin pool of players to acquire at the deadline, we might as well let the Thome Version 3.0 talks start now.

[ironmike]

Geronimo, you make some good points. Maybe Manny Acta has 8 position players he can count on. Agree, with a previous post they gotta find ways to play Hannahan and Lopez at the same time.

Yes, on Thome for the DH role.

CBS Jon Moroski is reporting today the Tigers are interested in trading for Carlos Quentin, a guy we should be knocking down doors to get and then sign long term. I'm certain Chris Antonetti is hustling for a couple of IMPACT bats, because they need at least two.

How many here would entertain trading Chisenhall for Quentin if we could sign him for three years?

Tony, who do we have coming behind Chisenhall?

[Hermie13]

How many here would entertain trading Chisenhall for Quentin if we could sign him for three years?

HEEEEEEEEEELL no.

[ironmike]

Hermie, you said hell no to Jimenez for Pomeranz and White correct?

We need to trade from an area of depth, San Diego wants young players. I'm sure they would be very interested in Chisenhall who is stuck behind Hannahan, one of our core players.

[Bearcatbob]

Hanahan is too old to be considered a core player.

[indians1]

At the time of the trade, i wanted the indians to trade chisenhall and one of the two that they did trade. neither has done well in colorado.

that being said, if chisenhall has value that could bring in an impact player, you do that deal in a second. chisenhall- for all of his hype, his numbers in the minors have been good but not great.

chisehnall's numbers when he has been up in the majors and even this year in the minors- his BB/K numbers have been incredibly unbalanced. i know chisenhall is only 23, but his minor league numbers do not scream superstar. I think he is replaceable.

[A.Zajac]

Hannahan isn't a core player nor do I feel he is an answer for the future. That said, I have my concerns about Chisenhall too.

[GeronimoSon]

Hermie, you said hell no to Jimenez for Pomeranz and White correct?

We need to trade from an area of depth, San Diego wants young players. I'm sure they would be very interested in Chisenhall who is stuck behind Hannahan, one of our core players.

Except.. the Padres have Chase Headley and Logan Forsythe on their ML roster and Jedd Gyorkoin AAA at 3B.. so adding "another" 3B wouldn't make a lot of sense for them.. that is, there is no need for four 3B player/prospects for the Padres. The Padres do have a need for a starting catcher until such time as Yasmani Grandel is ready to go. Both Nick Hundley and Jeff Baker may be considered at the same level as Lou Marson.. decent ability with serious flaws. The Padres starting pitching and relief staff has been decimated with injuries, so, an "upside" bullpen arm, or a decent arm for the rotation would be the most likely trade piece the Indians could offer. It should be noted that Carlos Quentin will be a Free Agent in 3 months. So, if the Indians were to acquire him, it would be wise to have the acquisition concurrent with a contract extension, however unlikely.

[ironmike]

See Hannahan playing 3b for the next three years. Why? Because he's earned it. He continues to improve, he is a gamer, he's tough and is a leader. if that isn't the formula for being a core player i don't know what is. I'm certain in the eyes of the manager and coaching staff he's considered a core player.

[GhostofTedCox]

I see Hannahan as the Casey Blake of the present day. When healthy, he certainly is not the problem on the team. But he is also not a building block. I wish they could try Chisenhall in LF, but you can't do that at this point of the season, or at this point in his career.

The Indians are at a tough point moving forward. I'm close to saying they should be "sellers", but they're too close to 1st place to do that. Yet, they don't seem to have the ammunition, or the will, to pull off a trade that would make a difference, like Quentin. The lineup is just such a hodge-podge right now, there doesn't seem to be a plan.

[ironmike]

Ted, agree with your post. Not sure if other teams know exactly what they will be doing at this time. Believe Antonetti has the will to try and improve the team. Between Hafner and Sizemore alone $20 million will be freed up and they only have $11 million commited for next year. Expect to see many upgrades to the Indians position player side of the roster, it should start soon depending on who is available.

[Hermie13]

Hermie, you said hell no to Jimenez for Pomeranz and White correct?

We need to trade from an area of depth, San Diego wants young players. I'm sure they would be very interested in Chisenhall who is stuck behind Hannahan, one of our core players.

No, I did not say hell no to that. I said hell no to dealing your 2 best pitchers for a hitter (ie, Hunter Pence). While I thought it was a bit of an overpay on Jinemenz, was not overly upset with trading pitching prospects for a pitcher (especially with your terrible our rotation was last year, worse than the offsense as I've shown many times).


I have no doubt the Padres would be interested in Chiz....but that's an overpay for Quentin. Guy just can't stay healthy. He could be on the DL next week and it wouldn't surprise anyone. Wouldn't call him Grady-injury prone but he's not a whole heck of a lot better in that department.

I agree we need to trade from an area of depth...and power hitting 3Bs is NOT an area of depth. Don't have many ML-caliber hitters (if any) above A-ball besides Chiz.

And agree, Hanny is not a core player. I am a big fan of him though, don't get me wrong. I love his defense but offensively still not sold on him. Not a big HR threat from a spot where the team needs power (hence why Chiz is a core type player going forward). Hanny is a great guy to have on the team, and would love to see him develop into a Blake-type player but he probably is more like John McDonald. Would love to be wrong here though and have Hanny come back healthy and become a 20 HR guy at 3B with a solid .350 OBP.

[Hermie13]

Ted, agree with your post. Not sure if other teams know exactly what they will be doing at this time. Believe Antonetti has the will to try and improve the team. Between Hafner and Sizemore alone $20 million will be freed up and they only have $11 million commited for next year. Expect to see many upgrades to the Indians position player side of the roster, it should start soon depending on who is available.

The Tribe does have only $11M or so in guaranteed money for next year but in reality the Tribe has about $55M committed to next season when you factor in arby raises. Tribe may have $10-15M to spend depending how things go the rest of the way but it's not like they are going to have all this money to throw around.

Numbers may change a bit based on how players perform (I estimated arby values, so may go up or down next winter). Or what players we may or may not add this summer (if they have money for next year still). Should note too that my $55M number assumes that Carmona's option is declined, Duncan and Slowery are non-tendered, LaPorta and Marson are arby eligible (though not a lot of money), Tribe doesn't trade any arby guys (this could happen though but can't really say who yet), and of course Hafner's option is declined (guaranteed to happen).

I think too many people see that $11M figure and think the Tribe will have like $40M to spend...not even close to the case even though we lose Hafner, Grady, Lowe, Kotchman, and Damon (about $20M in salary).

[Hermie13]

Hermie, you said hell no to Jimenez for Pomeranz and White correct?

We need to trade from an area of depth, San Diego wants young players. I'm sure they would be very interested in Chisenhall who is stuck behind Hannahan, one of our core players.

Except.. the Padres have Chase Headley and Logan Forsythe on their ML roster and Jedd Gyorkoin AAA at 3B.. so adding "another" 3B wouldn't make a lot of sense for them.. that is, there is no need for four 3B player/prospects for the Padres. The Padres do have a need for a starting catcher until such time as Yasmani Grandel is ready to go. Both Nick Hundley and Jeff Baker may be considered at the same level as Lou Marson.. decent ability with serious flaws. The Padres starting pitching and relief staff has been decimated with injuries, so, an "upside" bullpen arm, or a decent arm for the rotation would be the most likely trade piece the Indians could offer. It should be noted that Carlos Quentin will be a Free Agent in 3 months. So, if the Indians were to acquire him, it would be wise to have the acquisition concurrent with a contract extension, however unlikely.

Even with a few 3B options i think the Padres would have interest in Chiz for his youth and bat. Forsythe never really showed a lot of power in the minors. Solid OBP skills so in the big park may work out but also may only be a utility guy (solid one though espeically in the NL). Gyorko has been hitting very well down in AAA this year and looks like their 3B of the future....or is it 2B of the future? Has split time between 2B and 3B. May only be because he's blocked by Headley but that bat would play even better at 2B if he can manage it.


As I said I would not trade Chiz for Quentin....well, at least not straight up. If Chase Headley was included I'd be willing to move Chiz. Padres have hinted at maybe move Headley it seems like forever now. They do have Gyorko in AAA (who by the way, is older than Chisenhall) who could take over (if not moved to 3B) so trading Headley now makes sense IMO. Would they move both Quentin and Headley for Chiz? No, need to include more but personally I think a match could be had (though you never know, just us talking). Chiz could play 3B now for the Padres or he could go to AAA...where he could try LF (Padres did this with Headley). Would give them options though at 2B, 3B and the OF even potentially (Gyorko could move to 2B longterm maybe with Chiz in tow).

I'm still a big Chiz fan. He is still young. Again, Kipnis will be 25 the entire ML regular season....Chiz is only going to be 23. That said, if you could get a guy like Headley (hits well away from Petco and hits lefties pretty well) for 3B and can upgrade in LF/DH with Quentin...I'd be willing to move him. Quentin likely walks but at least you'd have Headley around for another 2 years (same as AC then).


As far as giving Quentin a concurrent contract extension if we acquired him....has that ever happened during a mid-season deal? I know guys like Johan Santana and Roy Halladay agreed to them in winter/offseason deals but I can't recall it ever happening during a summer/deadline deal. I just don't think it's an option...nor do I think it's all that wise. Quentin is so injury prone not sure he's worth a big extension (and don't think he'd agree to a team friendly one this summer).

[Prosecutor]

We just need to offer the Padres more than the Tigers are willing to give up, and any other teams that are in the running for Quentin's services.

If the Padres need pitching I would think about offering them their choice of Gomez or McAlister. We could throw in a relief pitching prospect since we're deep in that area. Or a position player like Cord Phelps as a throw-in.

Quentin could be signed to take over as the DH starting next year, which would help him stay healthy. Less wear and tear than playing in the field. It would be attractive to him as it would prolong his career and provide a desparately needed right-handed power bat. Then use some of the $20 million freed up by the expiring contracts of Lowe, Hafner, Grady et al to sign a legitimate left fielder.

Hannahan has a chronic back problem so I'm not sure how much he would bring in a trade. And Chiz has not proved he can play in the bigs, although he's only 23.

I would try and package Gomez or McAlister and a prospect (as long as it's not a top five guy like Lindor) for Quentin.

[GeronimoSon]

Carlos Quentin is in the last year of his ARB III season. He signed for $ 7.25 MM for the 2012 season. As of now, Quentin will become a FA at the end of the season. This is the same situation that the Brewers had when they acquired CC Sabathia who had 3 months to go before he became a FA. There is nothing that would prohibit the Indians from requiring a 'negotiating window' for contract extension talks as a part of this hypothetical trade.. I'm sure I've heard of this being done in the past ( I certainly didn't think it up), but I don't recall who the principles in the trade were or even if the trade(s) were successful..

[GeronimoSon]

We just need to offer the Padres more than the Tigers are willing to give up, and any other teams that are in the running for Quentin's services.

If the Padres need pitching I would think about offering them their choice of Gomez or McAlister. We could throw in a relief pitching prospect since we're deep in that area. Or a position player like Cord Phelps as a throw-in.

Quentin could be signed to take over as the DH starting next year, which would help him stay healthy. Less wear and tear than playing in the field. It would be attractive to him as it would prolong his career and provide a desparately needed right-handed power bat. Then use some of the $20 million freed up by the expiring contracts of Lowe, Hafner, Grady et al to sign a legitimate left fielder.

Hannahan has a chronic back problem so I'm not sure how much he would bring in a trade. And Chiz has not proved he can play in the bigs, although he's only 23.

I would try and package Gomez or McAlister and a prospect (as long as it's not a top five guy like Lindor) for Quentin.

+1

How about Scott Barnes as the trade piece the Indians might offer?. (I know he's listed in the top five of most prospect lists, however, with the latest group of saviors drafted, he might be pushed out of the top five)... Would three months of Carlos Quentin be worth the future career of Scott Barnes?... or would the Indians require a negotiating window ?

[Prosecutor]

Would three months of Carlos Quentin be worth the future career of Scott Barnes?... or would the Indians require a negotiating window ?

I can't recall a situation where a team traded for a player like Quentin and was able to negotiate a long term deal before commiting to the trade. These guys just play out the season and hit the open market. What's the advantage of limiting yourself to negotiating with just one team?

Would 98 games of Quentin be worth the rest of Barnes' career? Wow, that's the million dollar question. Is Barnes another David Huff or can he be a solid #3 starer? The Giants gave him up for Ryan Garko, so they weren't too high on him.

The Indians are 33-30 and only 1.5 games out of 1st place. This is the year to steal a division title because nobody looks like they're going to run away with it. Replacing Damon/Duncan/Cunningham in left with Carlos Quentin would have a huge effect on the offense. Batting Quentin behind Santana would result in Santana getting better pitches to hit.

I like Barnes but with Masterson and Ubaldo finding their grooves and with the continued lack of any offense whatsoever from left field, I think you have to make that move if Barnes will get it done. But I'm sure that somebody will offer the Pads more than Scott Barnes.

[Hermie13]

Carlos Quentin is in the last year of his ARB III season. He signed for $ 7.25 MM for the 2012 season. As of now, Quentin will become a FA at the end of the season. This is the same situation that the Brewers had when they acquired CC Sabathia who had 3 months to go before he became a FA. There is nothing that would prohibit the Indians from requiring a 'negotiating window' for contract extension talks as a part of this hypothetical trade.. I'm sure I've heard of this being done in the past ( I certainly didn't think it up), but I don't recall who the principles in the trade were or even if the trade(s) were successful..

Problem is how do you negotiate with a guy who is still currently playing for another team? Conflict of interest can come into play. Not to mention the Padres would likely just move on to the several other teams looking at dealing for Quentin than waiting for the Indians to try and work out something with Quentin.

lus, why would Quentin even entertain the idea of an extension now with the Tribe? He's from San Diego (went to high school there) and then played ball at Stanford. The thought of leaving San Diego/California to sign an extension mid-season with Cleveland, a team he's never played for, seems very far-fetched (and that's putting it lightly).

Then of course you have to ask if it would even be wise to offer Quentin an extension. You're talking about a guy who has never played in more than 131 games in season in his entire 7 year career. The guy always gets hurt. You'd just be signing another Hafner/Sizemore type. Sure when he's healthy he hits the crap out of the ball but until he proves he can stay healthy, he's a huge risk, especially for a small market like Cleveland. Would be a good add for the rest of this year (if the price is right) but he's a long-term risk.

[dazindiansfanuk]

I don't see anyway we'd get a negotiating period and I'm not convinced Quentin is a guy you wanna sign long term.

I don't however have any problem with a rent-a-bat but, if you're gonna trade for a guy that's a free agent at seasons end then you do it right now.

I know we're 6 weeks away from the deadline but, that's the point - you get 6 more weeks of the guy! Now, you're probably gonna have to be more aggressive to get him but so be it.

Plus, realistically, in 6 weeks time we should have a pretty good read on exactly where we are as a team when it comes to contending. If we fall out of the race there's nothing stopping you shopping Quentin at the actual deadline to recoup some of your losses.

[Hermie13]

I don't see anyway we'd get a negotiating period and I'm not convinced Quentin is a guy you wanna sign long term.

I don't however have any problem with a rent-a-bat but, if you're gonna trade for a guy that's a free agent at seasons end then you do it right now.

I know we're 6 weeks away from the deadline but, that's the point - you get 6 more weeks of the guy! Now, you're probably gonna have to be more aggressive to get him but so be it.

Plus, realistically, in 6 weeks time we should have a pretty good read on exactly where we are as a team when it comes to contending. If we fall out of the race there's nothing stopping you shopping Quentin at the actual deadline to recoup some of your losses.

Problem is that so few teams are selling. With the new wild card even more teams will be holding on to their pieces to see if they can compete. I don't see any big trades happening til mid July at the earlier. Would love to be wrong and for the Indians to pull off a deal...but just can't see it. Too many teams still in the hunt. Hell, KC has a realistic shot at the Central right now.

[dazindiansfanuk]

I don't see anyway we'd get a negotiating period and I'm not convinced Quentin is a guy you wanna sign long term.

I don't however have any problem with a rent-a-bat but, if you're gonna trade for a guy that's a free agent at seasons end then you do it right now.

I know we're 6 weeks away from the deadline but, that's the point - you get 6 more weeks of the guy! Now, you're probably gonna have to be more aggressive to get him but so be it.

Plus, realistically, in 6 weeks time we should have a pretty good read on exactly where we are as a team when it comes to contending. If we fall out of the race there's nothing stopping you shopping Quentin at the actual deadline to recoup some of your losses.

Problem is that so few teams are selling. With the new wild card even more teams will be holding on to their pieces to see if they can compete. I don't see any big trades happening til mid July at the earlier. Would love to be wrong and for the Indians to pull off a deal...but just can't see it. Too many teams still in the hunt. Hell, KC has a realistic shot at the Central right now.

Generally, you're right, fewer teams are selling right now.

However, our 2 most likely trade targets would probably be Quentin and Lee.... there's no illusions in either Houston or San Diego that they're not gonna be sellers.

[dazindiansfanuk]

FWIW.... Jayson Stark just said on Baseball Tonight that Padres GM Josh Byrnes would rather sign Quentin to a long-term deal than trade him, but they need to sort their ownership status first.

Stark said that "might be" sorted in a month or so.

[GhostofTedCox]

How's this for a suggestion / pipe dream.

1. Make a trade for Quentin.
2. Reportedly, the Angels will soon release Vernon Wells. That makes his salary a moot point. But a recruiting job would be required.

How would this be for a revitalized batting order?
Kipnis 2B LH
Cabrera SS S
Quentin LF RH
Wells CF RH
Santana C S
Choo RF LH
Damon / Hafner DH LH
Kothman 1B LH
Hannahan / Chisenhall 3B LH

[dazindiansfanuk]

How's this for a suggestion / pipe dream.

1. Make a trade for Quentin.
2. Reportedly, the Angels will soon release Vernon Wells. That makes his salary a moot point. But a recruiting job would be required.

How would this be for a revitalized batting order?
Kipnis 2B LH
Cabrera SS S
Quentin LF RH
Wells CF RH
Santana C S
Choo RF LH
Damon / Hafner DH LH
Kothman 1B LH
Hannahan / Chisenhall 3B LH

I know he's RH, but I don't see Wells as being an upgrade over Brantley.

[indians1]

Any player you trading for of significance, the asking price will be lindor. It will have to be the indians to say no. Then i think the next player is chisenhall- teams would ask for.

I would trade him -. i think he is another AAAA player like laporta. His strikezone discipline seams to be getting worse.

I don't know if barnes will pan out but he is the only pitcher you have right now (other than maybe mccalister) who can help the big league team.

Barnes is a lefty with strikeout potential (who was a guy that the indians thought highly enough of that they thought they could deal pomeranz) The indians do not have the starting pitching right now to compete.

Masterson is pitching better, ubaldo is still inconsistent. Jenmar gomez and tomlin look like major question marks right now.

If you are going to trade for a player- i think chisenhall is the guy to go. I don't think hannahan is that a major drop off offensively and is much better defensively than chisenhall. I think the answer at 1B is to play santana more there and marson more at catcher. santana has to start figuring it out as well. Santana is much better than kotchman.

[Hermie13]

How's this for a suggestion / pipe dream.

1. Make a trade for Quentin.
2. Reportedly, the Angels will soon release Vernon Wells. That makes his salary a moot point. But a recruiting job would be required.

How would this be for a revitalized batting order?
Kipnis 2B LH
Cabrera SS S
Quentin LF RH
Wells CF RH
Santana C S
Choo RF LH
Damon / Hafner DH LH
Kothman 1B LH
Hannahan / Chisenhall 3B LH

I know he's RH, but I don't see Wells as being an upgrade over Brantley.

Wells is a step down from Brantley (and that coming from a guy who is probably Brantley's biggest critic). I would be on board with getting Wells if he was cut and cost nothing (can replace Cunningham on the roster), but he'd replace a guy like Damon in the lineup, not Brantley. Wells has a miserable .282 OBP...Brantley is at .318. Brantley is also hitting .300 since May 2nd (when Damon debuted and MB dropped down in the lineup).

@Ghost

I actually don't think it's a crazy pipe dream to get those 2 guys (though Quentin will be tough). I don't understand why you're changing up the order so much though. Choo has done very well in the leadoff spot and has a better OBP than Kipnis. I could see Cabrera moving to the leadoff spot with his .391 OBP, but Kipnis doesn't make any sense there IMO right now.

And Brantley for all his faults has been one of our better hitters of late, why sit him? Or did you trade him for Quentin in this deal? If that's the case, it wouldn't be a pipe dream at all, I think the Padres would jump on Brantley for Quentin...and again, that's coming from a big critic of Brantley.

Don't get Wells in the cleanup spot either. Santana >> Wells. Wells is the RH Damon right now and would need to hit no higher than 6th in a Tribe lineup right now and no higher than 7th in the one you're showing (one with a healthy Hafner).


Like the idea as I'd be on board with replacing Cunningham and Duncan with Wells and Quentin (or sending Chiz down and keeping Duncan)....just not a fan of the order, and a bit confused why Brantley isn't in your lineup.

[Hermie13]

Generally, you're right, fewer teams are selling right now.

However, our 2 most likely trade targets would probably be Quentin and Lee.... there's no illusions in either Houston or San Diego that they're not gonna be sellers.

True, both those teams are likely sellers...but so many teams have similar needs as Cleveland, I just don't see either the Astros or Padres dealing their bigger pieces this early.

Seen several reports like the one Stark gave in regards to Quentin and the Padres. I think that could hold up a trade for a while too. Quentin as stated before is a SD guy and reportedly was thrilled to get a chance to play for the Padres. May be open to a team friendly extension with them.

[GhostofTedCox]

How's this for a suggestion / pipe dream.

1. Make a trade for Quentin.
2. Reportedly, the Angels will soon release Vernon Wells. That makes his salary a moot point. But a recruiting job would be required.

How would this be for a revitalized batting order?
Kipnis 2B LH
Cabrera SS S
Quentin LF RH
Wells CF RH
Santana C S
Choo RF LH
Damon / Hafner DH LH
Kothman 1B LH
Hannahan / Chisenhall 3B LH

I know he's RH, but I don't see Wells as being an upgrade over Brantley.

Wells is a step down from Brantley (and that coming from a guy who is probably Brantley's biggest critic). I would be on board with getting Wells if he was cut and cost nothing (can replace Cunningham on the roster), but he'd replace a guy like Damon in the lineup, not Brantley. Wells has a miserable .282 OBP...Brantley is at .318. Brantley is also hitting .300 since May 2nd (when Damon debuted and MB dropped down in the lineup).

@Ghost

I actually don't think it's a crazy pipe dream to get those 2 guys (though Quentin will be tough). I don't understand why you're changing up the order so much though. Choo has done very well in the leadoff spot and has a better OBP than Kipnis. I could see Cabrera moving to the leadoff spot with his .391 OBP, but Kipnis doesn't make any sense there IMO right now.

And Brantley for all his faults has been one of our better hitters of late, why sit him? Or did you trade him for Quentin in this deal? If that's the case, it wouldn't be a pipe dream at all, I think the Padres would jump on Brantley for Quentin...and again, that's coming from a big critic of Brantley.

Don't get Wells in the cleanup spot either. Santana >> Wells. Wells is the RH Damon right now and would need to hit no higher than 6th in a Tribe lineup right now and no higher than 7th in the one you're showing (one with a healthy Hafner).


Like the idea as I'd be on board with replacing Cunningham and Duncan with Wells and Quentin (or sending Chiz down and keeping Duncan)....just not a fan of the order, and a bit confused why Brantley isn't in your lineup.

IF Wells is cut, as rumored, the Angels pay his salary, not us. We would still have to do a selling job to sign him though.
He's RH, can play CF, and had over 50 HR the last 2 years. When healthy, I think he can still produce. He's only 33. He also could be the DH after Hafner's departure next season.
There is no question Wells is on the downside, and Brantley's on the upside. But if Quentin and Wells are on the team, I think Brantley, at best, shares CF or becomes "super-sub" and plays almost everyday somewhere.

As far as the lineup, I just would like to see Santana out of the 4th hole. Relax more. Choo has done OK at leadoff. But if he returns to being a strong OPS guy, I think this lineup could use him more elsewhere.

[Magneticnorth451]

I'm not sold on Vernon Wells being a viable option in CF (or LF for that matter), especially if he would be taking playing time from Brantley (the Quentin/Wells/Choo scenatio).

Granted, I'm no scout, but I'm willing to bet a scouting report on Wells reads something like, "Lost bat speed, can't play CF, lost a step on D, no plate discipline," etc.

A healthy Quentin, at the right price, would be an amazing boost for the Indians, however.

[Hermie13]

I'm not sold on Vernon Wells being a viable option in CF (or LF for that matter), especially if he would be taking playing time from Brantley (the Quentin/Wells/Choo scenatio).

Granted, I'm no scout, but I'm willing to bet a scouting report on Wells reads something like, "Lost bat speed, can't play CF, lost a step on D, no plate discipline," etc.

A healthy Quentin, at the right price, would be an amazing boost for the Indians, however.

Yeah Wells is not an option to start in CF, but he would at least give you a reasonable backup there to Brantley, which is why I'd view him as a replacement for Cunningham. I'd only call him a viable LF option because of how bad LF has been for us (he'd fit right in). Wouldn't want to count on him solving all our offensive issues though. Wells is basically Duncan/Cunningham rolled into one...hits like Duncan (aka, power and not much else) but can backup CF.

Agree with the scouting report mostly, except I'd say he's lost several steps on D...

[Chiefroy]

We not going anywhere without good pitching. As bad a we need a RH bat or two, we need to upgrade the rotation more. The Cubs have 2 SPs they'll look to trade in Dempster and Garza. I'd target those two in that order. They're both half season rentals but the bidding will be heavy and they won't come cheap. I'd start with a young, payroll-friendly, ML ready starting pitcher such as Gomez, Tomlin, McAllister, Huff, Barnes. Tomlin is probably not a good fit for Wrigley Field and we could use the lefties, but Gomez and McAllister could get their interest. Probably take another good arm like Sipp or one of our minor league bullpen arms....maybe more. But I'd certainly be in conversations about these two because our rotation is untrustworthy and shallow. We need an upgrade who is a least as good as Masterson, pitch deep in games and who can get us to Pestano and Perez or even complete games himself.

[Hermie13]

We not going anywhere without good pitching. As bad a we need a RH bat or two, we need to upgrade the rotation more. The Cubs have 2 SPs they'll look to trade in Dempster and Garza. I'd target those two in that order. They're both half season rentals but the bidding will be heavy and they won't come cheap. I'd start with a young, payroll-friendly, ML ready starting pitcher such as Gomez, Tomlin, McAllister, Huff, Barnes. Tomlin is probably not a good fit for Wrigley Field and we could use the lefties, but Gomez and McAllister could get their interest. Probably take another good arm like Sipp or one of our minor league bullpen arms....maybe more. But I'd certainly be in conversations about these two because our rotation is untrustworthy and shallow. We need an upgrade who is a least as good as Masterson, pitch deep in games and who can get us to Pestano and Perez or even complete games himself.

Garza is not a half season rental. He isn't a free agent til after the 2013 season. I'd love to land him as he has proven he can pitch in the AL and in the postseason. But likely to be so many people in on him that we'll miss out. Would have to start with Lindor. Probably have to include someone like Howard too (if healthy and teams want him).


I definitely agree on upgrading the rotation. It's much worse than the offense right now.

[dazindiansfanuk]

Cubs just put Dempster on the DL with tightness in a lat muscle.

[Chiefroy]

I don't imagine the Cubbies or anyone else will do much trading until the allstar break, so the DL stint shouldn't matter much unless the injury is serious enough to scare teams off. I don't reckon it is. And Hermie, according to Cots, Garza signed a one-year deal:

Matt Garza rhp
1 year/$9.5M (2012)
■1 year/$9.5M (2012)

■re-signed by Chicago Cubs 2/3/12 (avoided arbitration, $12.5M-$7.95M)
■performance bonuses: $50,000 for 210 innings pitched. $0.1M for 220 IP

[Hermie13]

I don't imagine the Cubbies or anyone else will do much trading until the allstar break, so the DL stint shouldn't matter much unless the injury is serious enough to scare teams off. I don't reckon it is. And Hermie, according to Cots, Garza signed a one-year deal:

Matt Garza rhp
1 year/$9.5M (2012)
■1 year/$9.5M (2012)

■re-signed by Chicago Cubs 2/3/12 (avoided arbitration, $12.5M-$7.95M)
■performance bonuses: $50,000 for 210 innings pitched. $0.1M for 220 IP

He signed a 1 year deal because he was arby eligible, same as Choo, Masterson, etc. He will again be arby eligible next year for the 4th and final time (was a Super Two originally). Again, not eligible for free agency til after the 2013, which is one reason he'll be so heavily coveted. Just a reminder, you can't be a free agent until you have 6 years of service time (or a team cuts you).


And I agree on when the Cubs will likely deal someone, though with Dempster's age the injury could worry some teams.

[Chiefroy]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Hermie. An extra year will surely bump Garza's price up. For this season, I'd rather have Dempster anyway considering how well he's thrown.

Good to see Tomlin with a nice outing vs potent Cincy offense tonight. If we can get some consistent QS like this, we might can put together some winning streaks.

[ironmike]

Garza, along with adding either Quentin or Soriano, plus letting LaPorta take the place of Duncan would satisfy me. Then drop Cunningham and add back Jason Donald with emphasis on Jason being able to be the super utility guy. Johnny Damon would help us strictly at DH, he was and still can be a professional hitter.

Adding two major talents, which we need to go deep in the playoffs, would cost multiple top level prospects for both the Cubs and Padres. Just think back to what teams like the Phillies and Brewers gave us.

At the moment who are our top 4-6 propects? We also have Carmona and CC coming back from Tommy John, two potential starting pitchers available for 2013. Adding Garza would be huge, doesn't matter if we only have him for 1.5 years. Go for it. This team will continue to stagger around the .500 mark with out adding impact players. Can't count on Hafner and Sizemore.

Impressed last nite with Choo and they way he drove the ball the opposite way against Chapman. Great piece of hitting by Cabrera taking the pitch off the outside part of the plate and driving it the other way for the win.

For all the "power arm" lovers here, if the ball doesn't move and can't be located these guys are dead-red on fastballs even at 100 MPH. Locate, change speeds, pitch backwards, pitch to both parts of the plate. Why Pedro Martinez was so darn effective is he could do all those things better than any pitcher in the game at the time.

Now how do our young pitchers like Kluber, Gomez, Huff, McAllister and others fit into this equation? Are they throwers or pitchers?