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Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:36 pm

ironmike wrote:No Hermie, it supposed to be Dolan ... smart ass!


ah, ok...so the 1st one then. :razz
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:44 pm

We've all heard about the difficulties of small-revenue market teams in a sport with no salary cap. We get it. We're aren't totally ignorant about the realities of major league baseball.

And, it's great if the baseball company "breaks even or makes a small profit". We get baseball is a business....we don't begrudge the Dolans or any owner of trying to make money.

But the product, guys. The product is what you're selling.

Nobody expects the team to be legitimate World Series competitive all the time. But, it seems the team cares more about coming up with non-stop creative promotions than building a lot better team.

Since John Hart left the Indians the team has been interesting to watch, what? 2007? And, before 1993 how long was it? 30 years?

Baseball IS baseball. But, it's also show biz.

Know when to say....the key people we've put in charge may be great individuals, but they simply aren't able to do the job. That's the real world. That's business. Every once in awhile you have to consider the wants of the customer...not just the bottom line.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:47 pm

timdav wrote:We've all heard about the difficulties of small-revenue market teams in a sport with no salary cap. We get it. We're aren't totally ignorant about the realities of major league baseball.

And, it's great if the baseball company "breaks even or makes a small profit". We get baseball is a business....we don't begrudge the Dolans or any owner of trying to make money.

But the product, guys. The product is what you're selling.

Nobody expects the team to be legitimate World Series competitive all the time. But, it seems the team cares more about coming up with non-stop creative promotions than building a lot better team.

Since John Hart left the Indians the team has been interesting to watch, what? 2007? And, before 1993 how long was it? 30 years?

Baseball IS baseball. But, it's also show biz.

Know when to say....the key people we've put in charge may be great individuals, but they simply aren't able to do the job. That's the real world. That's business. Every once in awhile you have to consider the wants of the customer...not just the bottom line.


I’ve got a different view. Owning a MLB franchise is a very low risk business b/c of revenue sharing and the monopolistic nature of MLB. This isn’t the normal capitalism that we’re accustomed to in the U.S.

Caterpillar, Inc. doesn’t give Deere & Co. its profits when times are tough for Deere b/c they happen to operate in a less attractive economy – Caterpillar puts Deere out of business if it can’t compete. This is not the case in MLB. Your team may totally suck, but you still get the Yankees money through revenue sharing.

MLB is a low risk business that has no real competition and it generates very stable cash flows. You can buy a MLB team for $500 million, finance it (borrow $400 million from a bank) and use $100 million of your own cash (I believe Dolan borrowed a fair sum to buy the team). Over the course of 10-20 years, you use the stable, reliable cash flows (remember, MLB is antitrust exempt and has no competition) to pay back the debt you borrowed from the bank. After a decade or two, you’ve paid off all of the debt and you own the team outright. It’s a low risk way to build wealth. You turn the $100 million you put into the team into $500 million (assuming there is no appreciation in the team’s value, which is extremely conservative).

Why don’t all companies do this? Because there’s actually competition in the market place and you can go bankrupt easily doing something like that when the markets turn against you.

My point being is that MLB isn’t real business. You don’t need to even turn a profit each year to make money owning a MLB franchise. Revenue sharing and an effective monopoly makes this an easy business – the only real direct risk is baseball becoming unpopular in America. Just sit back, collect the Yankees money through revenue sharing, use the proceeds to pay off debt and sell the team when the debt has been paid back and you own the team outright.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:25 pm

Good win and very well played game tonight. Ubalbo was able to work out of jams. Vinnie & Perez do the job they have done so many times before. Little hiccup by Smith - but he gets the win.

Doesn't change my mind though. I would proceed as if we were sellers & build for next year. This might increase Perez's value though.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:25 pm

timdav wrote:We've all heard about the difficulties of small-revenue market teams in a sport with no salary cap. We get it. We're aren't totally ignorant about the realities of major league baseball.

And, it's great if the baseball company "breaks even or makes a small profit". We get baseball is a business....we don't begrudge the Dolans or any owner of trying to make money.

But the product, guys. The product is what you're selling.

Nobody expects the team to be legitimate World Series competitive all the time. But, it seems the team cares more about coming up with non-stop creative promotions than building a lot better team.

Since John Hart left the Indians the team has been interesting to watch, what? 2007? And, before 1993 how long was it? 30 years?

Baseball IS baseball. But, it's also show biz.

Know when to say....the key people we've put in charge may be great individuals, but they simply aren't able to do the job. That's the real world. That's business. Every once in awhile you have to consider the wants of the customer...not just the bottom line.


Guess it depends on your definition of fun to watch, but IMO the Indians were a fun team to a watch a couple times in the 80s (though your expectations were much, much lower back then). IMO, they were a VERY fun team to watch in 2005, and were also fun to watch in 2004, 2008 (disappointing but fun to watch), and last year and even this year. Hell they are fun to watch every year (some years obviously more than others).
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:34 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Good win and very well played game tonight. Ubalbo was able to work out of jams. Vinnie & Perez do the job they have done so many times before. Little hiccup by Smith - but he gets the win.

Doesn't change my mind though. I would proceed as if we were sellers & build for next year. This might increase Perez's value though.


Huge win for the Tribe. Think these next 5 games are the keys to the Tribe's plans the rest of the year. 2 more against the Tigers at home, then 3 against the lowly Twins on the road before an off day the day before the deadline. Tribe could be in 1st place come that day...or 7 games out. Some very winnable games here, need to get over that stinkfest of a Baltimore series.

ha, and gotta love baseball....Ubaldo goes 6 innings tonight, gives up zero runs. Pestano zero runs in an inning. Perez zero runs in an inning...but the win? Goes to Smith who gives up 2 runs in one inning of work for his 6 win, good for 4th on the team now. Realize that's the rule, but still amazes me sometimes how the worst pitcher you use in a game by far can get the "win" still. O well. 'W' next to Chief Wahoo is all that matters :cool
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:45 am

The batter ahead of Cabrerra should have been forced to hit the ball to get on - even if the pitches were under hand.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:10 am

Is there a more unbelievable way for the Indians to score a run than Hafner hitting a triple followed by an Aaron Cunningham/Lou Marson suicide squeeze?

You won't see that again in a hundred years, but it did the job.

By the way, that's the second head-first slide by Hafner in a week. Nobody can tell me he's not trying.

Great work by Ubaldo throwing seven shutout innings despite allowing leadoff singles in five of them and having to deal with Damon letting a pop fly drop. This the guy we traded for and he did a fantastic job of bearing down with runners on base.

Never walk a guy with two out, nobody on, a two-run lead, and Miquel Cabrera on deck. Shame on you, Joe Smith.

Carlos Santana is finally back. He drives in one run with a single and sets up another with a double. He also threw out Austin Jackson on a steal of second but didn't get the call.

The Tribe needs to eliminate those baserunning errors. Kipnis got picked off first and Brantley got caught in a rundown where he could have easily been injured banging into Prince Fielder. Not much margin for error when playing the Tigers.

Derek Lowe goes tonight. He's been having a lot of trouble getting through the first inning without damage. I'm expecting the worst. If he can struggle through five innings against this lineup it will be a miracle. Then Verlander on Thursday. I think last night's game might have been the Tribe's last gasp for this season.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:44 am

Nice to see a squeeze to win a game. Is Marson that much faster than Pronk? Anyway, a squeeze that is properly executed will score a run every time. The only hazards are if the ball is bunted directly to the pitcher or not bunted at all.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:33 am

daingean wrote:Nice to see a squeeze to win a game. Is Marson that much faster than Pronk? Anyway, a squeeze that is properly executed will score a run every time. The only hazards are if the ball is bunted directly to the pitcher or not bunted at all.


If Pronk ran any slower..he'd be going backwards.. yes..Marson is that much faster..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:25 pm

daingean wrote:Nice to see a squeeze to win a game. Is Marson that much faster than Pronk? Anyway, a squeeze that is properly executed will score a run every time. The only hazards are if the ball is bunted directly to the pitcher or not bunted at all.


I know stolen bases don't necessarily mean faster, but Marson has 15 steals in the last 3 seasons (in just 204 games & 691 at-bats) while only being caught thrice. Hafner in his career has 9 steals (in over 1000 games) while being caught 7 times. Even if the speed difference isn't much, safe to say Marson is a better baserunner.

Agree in theory on a squeeze...but sadly today's ballplayers seem to have the toughest time getting down a simple bunt. Should be one of the easiest things to do in baseball. I'd also say the worst case scenario would be a popped up bunt that results in a doubleplay too. If you're the pitcher too and you see (or hear someone yell out) the squeeze you could always just drill the hitter with the pitch. Deadball and runner goes back to 3rd (provided the bases aren't loaded). Not sure that's still taught (but how I learned to play).
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:50 pm

My boy's 17U team attempted the suicide squeeze 8 times this summer and were successful on 7 of them (one time 2 consecutive squeezes on back-to-back plays). With the new BBCOR bats, I'd think this fundamental would be used more.

Maybe it was a bit of a mind game done by Acta but if you are pinch running with a guy like Marson, the opposing manager might not have his squeeze suspicion alerted. You'd think that with Lopez or relievers available you would put a faster runner on third if you were planning a squeeze.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:57 pm

Agree with the squeeze, good baseball people see the value.

If Wedge were still here, it would have never happened. We lost 37 games by one run one year with Wedge as our manager. The worst in-game tactical manager we ever had since Joe Adcock. Best part about all that was Shapiro called for an internal investigation after the season. That was like the blind leading the blind.

Solution? More walks, hit and runs, less K's, stolen bases and all the other intangibles and the ability of the front office to get those kind of players and NOT give them away ... Brandon Phillips.

Again, there is a real story to be written about the incompetence of Mark Shapiro.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:09 pm

Hafner scored on a squeeze bunt last year. When asked after the game what was the key to the play, he said "Speed".

Putting Marson in to run was a good move even without the squeeze because he would have a better chance to score on a sac fly or wild pitch than Hafner. The danger was if the game went into extra innings and Santana got hurt.

Lucky for the Tribe that Detroit's outfielders misplayed Hafner's double into a triple, otherwise I don't see the Tribe scoring that run. Miguel Cabrera also had a throwing error on a Brantley ground ball that led to an Indians run. Defense is not the Tigers' strong suit.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:30 pm

Nobody's debating the thin margin-of-error that most MLBB teams have.

Sign the wrong free agent....they get hurt or underperform and it's like an anchor around the neck of the team's payroll. Make a bad trade (i.e.: the Sabathia trade)....and that hurts (I love Michael Brantley...but, the rest of the guys are a bust)...that hurts the team.

Don't know how they are going to do it. But, certainly help from a few promising young position players & pitchers at Carolina and below might be coming by '14 or '15+, Hafner and Grady's money going away after this season, and return of hopefully a solid Roberto Hernandez and Carlos Carrrasco....maybe they do have some positives.

But, it's likely not going to be in 2013 (sure hope I'm wrong).

Would you guys trade Choo now (or sometime before this time next season) assuming he's going to likely be gone to free agency anyway after 2013?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:59 pm

Aaron Cunningham HAS BEEN DFA'd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:16 pm

Would you guys trade Choo now (or sometime before this time next season) assuming he's going to likely be gone to free agency anyway after 2013?


Choo is repped by Scott Boras who is going to shop him around. So Choo will definitely have to be moved at the trade deadline next year unless the Tribe is in first place or darned close to it. He should bring a very nice prospect or two in return. The Yankees just dealt for Ichiro. Choo is twice the player he is.

Which will only exacerbate the problem I talked about. We have no left fielder now, and after the AS break next year we'll have no right fielder and no leadoff hitter. No first baseman and no DH. I really don't know where they're going to find all those pieces.

With Hafner's $13 million and Grady's $5 million going off the payroll, and the pay cut that Hernandez had to take, they should be buyers in free agency this winter. Some players will be in line for raises and they'll need $2.5 million to buy out Hafner, but they should be able to add a couple of solid veterans. And by solid I mean better than Casey Kotchman and Johnny Damon. I expect they'll sign a couple run-of-the-mill veterans to play LF and 1B.

I suppose they could move Santana to first and make Marson the every day catcher. I expect them to sign a 30-something right-handed bat to DH - maybe a Jose Lopez with a little more pop.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Would you guys trade Choo now (or sometime before this time next season) assuming he's going to likely be gone to free agency anyway after 2013?


Choo is repped by Scott Boras who is going to shop him around. So Choo will definitely have to be moved at the trade deadline next year unless the Tribe is in first place or darned close to it. He should bring a very nice prospect or two in return. The Yankees just dealt for Ichiro. Choo is twice the player he is.

Which will only exacerbate the problem I talked about. We have no left fielder now, and after the AS break next year we'll have no right fielder and no leadoff hitter. No first baseman and no DH. I really don't know where they're going to find all those pieces.

With Hafner's $13 million and Grady's $5 million going off the payroll, and the pay cut that Hernandez had to take, they should be buyers in free agency this winter. Some players will be in line for raises and they'll need $2.5 million to buy out Hafner, but they should be able to add a couple of solid veterans. And by solid I mean better than Casey Kotchman and Johnny Damon. I expect they'll sign a couple run-of-the-mill veterans to play LF and 1B.

I suppose they could move Santana to first and make Marson the every day catcher. I expect them to sign a 30-something right-handed bat to DH - maybe a Jose Lopez with a little more pop.


Unless this team can sign Choo by December, I would be in favor of sending him away come winter meetings. I would also consider moving Santana off catcher because I think the rigors of catching is preventing him from becoming the hitter we think he can become (plus I'm kind of old school in that I okay with a defensive first catcher). I would see this off-season if Carlos can play RF because his arm is too good to waste at 1B (plus I think it is easier to fill 1B than RF).

Also add in $5mil we are paying Lowe to your available budget.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:41 pm

personally feel trading Cperez happens no matter what. Might be in the off-season but will be quite surprised if he is on the tribes opening day roster. With Myers dealt he has to be the most sought after closer especially considering he is not a FA at the end of the year and his salary wont be more than 7 million next year. 7 million is more than Dolan wants to pay any player and with Pestano looking like he could step in at anytime - yeah if Perez doesn't get dealt by the deadline no matter what i will be surpirsed. Even if he is not I say the odds of him returning as an indian next year are around 25%

Now thats not total Dolan bashing - because I feel Pestano could move into the role right now. I also feel Cperez could return us some pretty a nice MLer or ML ready prospects Though not a fan of a LH named Belt - he is an example. Also if it comes to it and we are out I say Hafner gets dealt - mostly likely in a cash or the ambiguous PTBNL type of deal, but feel Hanny and Haf could net us an "interesting" prospect.
If St. Louis called and said Pestano + Chen for Craig.... hmmmm i might do it. If they said Perez + (anyone not named Lindor) for Craig I would prolly do it - unless the + was a fella named Aguilar and then I would have to think about it.

As for Choo - you hang onto him this season without question.. Off-season contract discussions, Winter meetings, before next years trade deadline - one of those future 3 time plots is where Choo's future with the org will be decided. Trading Choo this year might just cause me to tune out the tribe until they get new managment/owner.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:50 pm

daingean wrote:My boy's 17U team attempted the suicide squeeze 8 times this summer and were successful on 7 of them (one time 2 consecutive squeezes on back-to-back plays). With the new BBCOR bats, I'd think this fundamental would be used more.

Maybe it was a bit of a mind game done by Acta but if you are pinch running with a guy like Marson, the opposing manager might not have his squeeze suspicion alerted. You'd think that with Lopez or relievers available you would put a faster runner on third if you were planning a squeeze.


I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Marson is faster than Lopez (and not by a little bit). Lopez looks like he's running in place when running the bases. Don't recall a manager using a reliever as a pinch runner outside of maybe the playoffs. Know Acta has used Tomlin at times. Really think other than Tomlin, Marson was your fastest guy on the bench. Plus, if you're planning a squeeze though, a possible collision at the plate may not be the best idea for a a starting pitcher (ie, Tomlin) you're counting on to be in there.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:55 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:My boy's 17U team attempted the suicide squeeze 8 times this summer and were successful on 7 of them (one time 2 consecutive squeezes on back-to-back plays). With the new BBCOR bats, I'd think this fundamental would be used more.

Maybe it was a bit of a mind game done by Acta but if you are pinch running with a guy like Marson, the opposing manager might not have his squeeze suspicion alerted. You'd think that with Lopez or relievers available you would put a faster runner on third if you were planning a squeeze.


I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Marson is faster than Lopez (and not by a little bit). Lopez looks like he's running in place when running the bases. Don't recall a manager using a reliever as a pinch runner outside of maybe the playoffs. Know Acta has used Tomlin at times. Really think other than Tomlin, Marson was your fastest guy on the bench. Plus, if you're planning a squeeze though, a possible collision at the plate may not be the best idea for a a starting pitcher (ie, Tomlin) you're counting on to be in there.


Marson is pretty quick, especially for a catcher. Considering the complete lack of other PR's on the bench he is your guy. He is faster then Lopez no question.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:05 pm

criznit2009 wrote:personally feel trading Cperez happens no matter what. Might be in the off-season but will be quite surprised if he is on the tribes opening day roster. With Myers dealt he has to be the most sought after closer especially considering he is not a FA at the end of the year and his salary wont be more than 7 million next year. 7 million is more than Dolan wants to pay any player and with Pestano looking like he could step in at anytime - yeah if Perez doesn't get dealt by the deadline no matter what i will be surpirsed. Even if he is not I say the odds of him returning as an indian next year are around 25%

Now thats not total Dolan bashing - because I feel Pestano could move into the role right now. I also feel Cperez could return us some pretty a nice MLer or ML ready prospects Though not a fan of a LH named Belt - he is an example. Also if it comes to it and we are out I say Hafner gets dealt - mostly likely in a cash or the ambiguous PTBNL type of deal, but feel Hanny and Haf could net us an "interesting" prospect.
If St. Louis called and said Pestano + Chen for Craig.... hmmmm i might do it. If they said Perez + (anyone not named Lindor) for Craig I would prolly do it - unless the + was a fella named Aguilar and then I would have to think about it.

As for Choo - you hang onto him this season without question.. Off-season contract discussions, Winter meetings, before next years trade deadline - one of those future 3 time plots is where Choo's future with the org will be decided. Trading Choo this year might just cause me to tune out the tribe until they get new managment/owner.


Perez would definitely be up there as one of the most valuable closers on the market, though I think Huston Street may hold that title for the time being at least(though the Padres are trying to extend him so could be off the market).

Also think CP could easily eclipse $7M (you said won't make more than it). Closers get overpaid in arby...personally think $7M is the floor for what CP gets next year and $7.5M is very likely. Bit nitpicky, but adds to your point I think. Wouldn't say the Dolan's don't want to pay that for a closer though. Dolan ok'ed giving Kerry Wood $10M per year for 2 years (plus option). Dolan doesn't sit around and dictate on what positions money should be spent (at least I doubt it).

That said, do agree on what you're saying. Think it's not about paying a closer that much next year, simply that it will hinder getting a bat in the OF/1B. May be way off, but I think CP's money may have been what Antonetti was referring to when he said the Tribe would have to free up money to sign Beltran (after they reportedly made their offer).

Agree on Choo too. Think this winter is a better time to deal him than now (though the right offer, never say never). Would really kill fan interest now. Would still this winter, but at least then you could at least say you tried hard to extend him then when that didn't work you moved him.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:10 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Aaron Cunningham HAS BEEN DFA'd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well...at least he went on a high note.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:40 am

I don't see how they can possibly trade Choo this winter. Doing that would be trashing the 2013 season before it starts. Choo is the only legitimate leadoff hitter the team has, and he's thriving in that role. They have nobody who can play right field, nobody. They have to at least give themselves a chance to compete next year. The Indians are 8th in runs scored and they cannot afford to give up one of their top three offensive players for prospects.

If they're out of contention by July, sure, then it's a no-brainer.

The Indians are last in attendence now, and trading Choo this winter would send a clear message to the fans - don't bother showing up this year, we're not trying to win anything.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:54 am

Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how they can possibly trade Choo this winter. Doing that would be trashing the 2013 season before it starts. Choo is the only legitimate leadoff hitter the team has, and he's thriving in that role. They have nobody who can play right field, nobody. They have to at least give themselves a chance to compete next year. The Indians are 8th in runs scored and they cannot afford to give up one of their top three offensive players for prospects.

If they're out of contention by July, sure, then it's a no-brainer.

The Indians are last in attendence now, and trading Choo this winter would send a clear message to the fans - don't bother showing up this year, we're not trying to win anything.


This depends on the return they get for him. I would not trade him for prospects that are 2 or more years away. The point is first explore resigning him (doubtful as Boras doesn't resign early and Boras doesn't view Cleveland as a destination team). If you don't trade him, you will lose him and like said we have nobody close to the majors to be a replacement.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:27 am

Choo could be traded for a major league player, a major prospect and a high upside spec prospect. He may have more value to another team.

The upside of keeping him is that next year would be his free agent year and he would be very highly motivated to have a great year.

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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:38 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how they can possibly trade Choo this winter. Doing that would be trashing the 2013 season before it starts. Choo is the only legitimate leadoff hitter the team has, and he's thriving in that role. They have nobody who can play right field, nobody. They have to at least give themselves a chance to compete next year. The Indians are 8th in runs scored and they cannot afford to give up one of their top three offensive players for prospects.

If they're out of contention by July, sure, then it's a no-brainer.

The Indians are last in attendence now, and trading Choo this winter would send a clear message to the fans - don't bother showing up this year, we're not trying to win anything.


Disagree slightly. Thru the first part of this season Asdrubal actually had a better OBP (was .385 thru mid-June). Even still it's at .351 which is not bad for a leadoff hitter at all. Showed some of the best plate discipline we've seen from in Indian in quite a while early as well. Choo is obviously the best guy for the job currently (OBP is up near .380), but this team could turn to someone else if they had too (Kipnis is another guy that I think could leadoff).

I agree mostly though, trading Choo would send some bad signals to the fan base. I think the only way you could really trade Choo and not get terrible backlash is if you've already signed a guy such as a Nick Swisher or someone of that nature and you get a solid return on Choo (like a solid MLer that could start in LF/1B). You'd still get a lot of fan hate but maybe not quite as much, especially if you wait til you've at least explored heavily the option of extending him. Obviously it'll be tough to sign a guy like Swisher though.

At the end of the day though if your the Indians you have to do what you truely feel is best for the Indians baseball-wise and worry about fans second. If the Tribe trades Choo (and think it 'could' happen), it'd have to keep the team competitive for 2013 or don't think they'd do it. Never know though..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:54 pm

Prosecutor wrote:....The Indians are last in attendence now, and trading Choo this winter would send a clear message to the fans - don't bother showing up this year, we're not trying to win anything....


THE FANS DON'T SHOW UP.. anyway.. The message is whatever you want to interpret it to be.. in short, being last in attendance while trying to improve is clear indication that it really doesn't matter what 'message' is being spewed.. the perfect storm that brought in the fans was the departure of the LOUSIEST and MOST POORLY MANAGED SPORTS FRANCHISE in Cleveland history (the Browns), the Cavs stinking (and they do) and the Indians amassing a litany of prospects that turn into ALL STARS all at the same time..

That's when the "fans" will show up.. anything short of that.. and IT DOESN'T MATTER what the Indians do with Choo.. with Chris Perez.. etc.. It will be nothing more than condition normal..the Indians don't compete in the eyes of the fan... too bad for them..they're missing a wonderful form of entertainment..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:06 pm

...I think the only way you could really trade Choo and not get terrible backlash is if you've already signed a guy such as a Nick Swisher or someone of that nature and you get a solid return on Choo (like a solid MLer that could start in LF/1B)...


Choo doesn't every get traded for a "Nick Swisher type".. not today.. not in a million years..

IF the Indians want to show they mean business & are serious about competing.. they trade Choo to, as an example, to the Pirates for as few as two and as many players as they can get from the list that includes: James Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Starling Marte, Josh Bell, and or Luis Heredia. The Pirates are desperate for a bat.. preferably someone who can lead off / set the table. Shortstop would be ideal.. but Choo would be just as potent. To get both Choo & Asdrubal, who together could push the Pirates over the top in their quest to become a serious playoff contender.. they would have to pay DEARLY !!..

Band-aids and baling wire (i.e. past their prime players like Swisher).. don't fix the problem.. A HUGE gamble that pays out, does.. The trading of Choo & Asdrubal would represent a HUGE gamble by the front office..something Chris Antonetti has shown he is not averse to..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Choo could be traded for a major league player, a major prospect and a high upside spec prospect. He may have more value to another team.

The upside of keeping him is that next year would be his free agent year and he would be very highly motivated to have a great year.

Bob



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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby go_tribe » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:25 pm

Biggest problem with trading Choo and Asdrubal though is it makes the Ubaldo trade look even worse. We'd essentially be trading Pomeranz, White, Choo and Asdrubal for Taillon and Cole/Marte/Bell/Heredia. The best option is to just sign Choo at all costs. We have such a glaring weakness in LF thats been impossible to address, they already have an all star caliber guy in RF that would be impossible to replace.

I really think we have a good core that with some help could be as good as the 2007 team. I would be a buyer this year and wouldnt hesitate to trade anyone, including Lindor for the right guy. Hunter Pence is not that guy
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:53 pm

Geronimo, I just reached for the Pepto Bismol after reading your post.

Fourteen more years of collecting prospects??? That's your answer? That's a formula for disaster for a franchise struggling to keep and increase their fan and advertising base. WINNING now at all costs is the solution.

This team needs to foucs at winning games at Progressive Field, not worrrying about trying to excite a few hard core fans
and give Tony Lastoria ammunition to write about.

Trading for PROSPECTS would be disasterous.

Trading Choo would be an acceptable idea IF equal value could be received that allows the Indians to control the player and BALANCE out the line up with a established RH professional hitter. Nothing wrong with a trade like that.

ADDING TO THE PILE at the ML level is the SOLUTION. By the way, acquiring Swisher this past winter would have been a very postitive move. Only a nit-wit would argue for a team that STRUGGLES to score 3 runs per game consistently. Swisher, McCutcheon and Votto = Ramirez, Lofton and Thome that's what John Hart did ... plus MORE!

The last 3 games we've scored 8 runs and are dam lucky we won two of them. The two pitchers (Ubaldo and Masterson) most of you bitch about held the opponents to under 3 runs. You don't have 16-18 game winners on a team that can't score runs, PLUS the pressure is enorumous on our starting pitchers because they know they have to super fine every game to have a chance to win. Very little consistent support. Not easy conditions to pitch under.

The answer, assemble a team that scores 835+ runs per season and that equates to a championship caliber team ... its real easy to grasp and not even arguable ... Hermie.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:16 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
...I think the only way you could really trade Choo and not get terrible backlash is if you've already signed a guy such as a Nick Swisher or someone of that nature and you get a solid return on Choo (like a solid MLer that could start in LF/1B)...


Choo doesn't every get traded for a "Nick Swisher type".. not today.. not in a million years..


That's not what the post says.

"Already signed a Swisher type" AND "get a solid return on Choo"..... two seperate things.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:26 pm

From Jayson Stark

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/82019 ... ck-greinke

• The better the Evan Longoria news gets in Tampa Bay, the less likely the Rays are to deal James Shields. But if they do, this won't be just a Rangers-Angels bidding war. We're hearing the Indians and Cardinals also have talked to the Rays about Shields.

• Teams that have spoken with the Indians say they're willing to listen on Chris Perez and Shin-Soo Choo, but they're very unlikely to deal either player unless they get blown away. The Indians are telling teams they'll wait until the last minute to decide if they're buying, selling or some combination of both.


But the best part was this little goof on his part..I can only assume he meant Vinnie Pestano in which case for Victorino thats just laughable.

• The Phillies continue to talk to a bunch of teams about Shane Victorino, although their recent hot streak has left them more up in the air than ever about whether to trade a core player such as Victorino, whom they can't easily replace. Their asking price has been a young, but proven, setup reliever, plus a young outfielder or third baseman. But to get Victorino moved, said an official of one club, they're going to have to cut that price in half. Other teams expect them to narrow their focus eventually just to young relievers. Among the names we hear they've asked about: Pittsburgh's Brad Lincoln, Tampa Bay's Wade Davis, Cleveland's Vinny Rottino and Cincinnati's Logan Ondrusek.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:38 pm

ironmike wrote:The answer, assemble a team that scores 835+ runs per season and that equates to a championship caliber team ... its real easy to grasp and not even arguable ... Hermie.


Must not be such an easy concept since no team in baseball has a assembled a team that is on pace to score 835 runs...let alone 835+...In fact, only 1 team in ALL OF BASEBALL has assembled a team that's on pace to score 800 runs even (the Rangers). The 29 other teams in baseball are on pace to score 795 or less...

O well...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:45 pm

To have any shot at winning a ring, there simply has to be a solid base of players developed and finished off in the minor league system of a mid-to-smaller revenue market team like the Indians. That's just an unfortunate reality.

Markets like Cleveland are not key targets for free agent stars. Besides, smaller/mid-revenue market teams like Cleveland doesn't have the revenue to build a great team through free agency. And, you can't build a base of veteran core players through trades. You have to have something of value to trade.

Thus...you build your core from the minors. Some young players can come in trades for Indian stars whom the team trades early because they know the stars will soon be gone to free agency (i.e.: the C.C. Sabathia, Cliff Lee, etc.), but, most of the team's player foundation will have to be drafted and developed by the Indians minor league system.

The Indians now really are stuck in a tough situation....as Terry Pluto pointed out in a column earlier this week. They are a .500 team with a number of good pieces...just not enough pieces. And, even adding one or two players at next week's trade deadline won't get this team to realistic world series contender status in 2012 or 2013.

That stinks. None of us like it, but it's reality.

Like I've been saying...how long do you stick with the upper management team who has put together the scouting and development staff? Not saying they aren't nice people. Not saying they aren't trying to do their jobs. Not saying their jobs aren't very challenging and tough.

But, how long do the Dolans keep going down the same road? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years since John Hart left?????

Up to now the team either makes a minor profit or at worst breaks even most of the time. But, of late, in a volatile economic environment, in an aging metro area, and 30th in attendance....new pressures are being put on all kinds of businesses...not just baseball. What was OK to put up with 2008 back, may nolonger be an option in 2012 forward!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:11 pm

I don't know that it's wise to a fire a GM when technically he's in his first year. I get that he's part of a larger group of individuals that has been around much longer, but what it comes down to is this. If you're really suggesting that the failures of this team need to result in upheaval in the front office, what you need to ask is this: would that make it better?

I don't know that there's a big name GM waiting out there to be hired that would instantly satiate the fan base. I certainly don't know if that person would be able to bring in new and better scouts, executives and other personnel (because if the front office has failed, it certainly hasn't been just one man's fault). Furthermore, I don't know that said person would be willing to come to Cleveland. I don't really expect that we'd be getting any better in that department for all of the drama, money and wasted ink that it would incur. I think for the most part that it would do nothing to help with attendance, as it would be seen as yet another rebuild and a large portion of the fans blame Dolan and don't think Shapiro/Antonetti are the problem.

And again, this team is not nearly as awful as some would have you believe. This is a playoff contender that's working without it's best hitter and best starter having good seasons. This team does not have to score 800 runs to win, no matter how many times Mike repeats that line (again, only 3 teams last year scored that many, and one of them didn't even make the playoffs. The world champs weren't one of them). This is not a team that is going to run away with their division, but to expect that of a mid-market team is silly in the first place. Baseball is all about pennant races, and most of the recent world series winners have not been dominating in the regular season. To suggest that this team needs to be built as an obvious juggernaut is to say that we need to be like the Phillies, Tigers or Yankees. But we don't. And realistically we can't, because that kind of offensive firepower is prohibitively expensive.

I don't blame the fans for not coming. Honestly, their attendance doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme, as the cable revenue is the real revenue gap between the haves and have nots. But honestly, it does say something that a team that is legitimately in a playoff race and has been all year can't outdraw perennial losers like the Kansas City Royals. And while the weather gets used as an excuse, but in all honesty it's just simply a fact that Cleveland sports fans do not support their baseball team as much as other teams' sports fans do. Other teams get better attendance out of poorer records, worse weather, and even lower payrolls. We're not even in the bottom 9 in any of those categories (unless you really think our weather is *that bad*). What it says to me is that a large swath of fans out there don't want to support this team unless it's a steamroller. Unless it will dominate the competition like the 90s Indians. And to me, those fans are fairweather fans. Nothing wrong with that, but let's please get off the "fans should get exactly what they want" mentality. Fans are irrational, if the locals ran this ballclub it would be in flames. Same as any other team out there with a tough media market.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:03 pm

Edible14 wrote:I don't know that it's wise to a fire a GM when technically he's in his first year. I get that he's part of a larger group of individuals that has been around much longer, but what it comes down to is this. If you're really suggesting that the failures of this team need to result in upheaval in the front office, what you need to ask is this: would that make it better?

I don't know that there's a big name GM waiting out there to be hired that would instantly satiate the fan base. I certainly don't know if that person would be able to bring in new and better scouts, executives and other personnel (because if the front office has failed, it certainly hasn't been just one man's fault). Furthermore, I don't know that said person would be willing to come to Cleveland. I don't really expect that we'd be getting any better in that department for all of the drama, money and wasted ink that it would incur. I think for the most part that it would do nothing to help with attendance, as it would be seen as yet another rebuild and a large portion of the fans blame Dolan and don't think Shapiro/Antonetti are the problem.

And again, this team is not nearly as awful as some would have you believe. This is a playoff contender that's working without it's best hitter and best starter having good seasons. This team does not have to score 800 runs to win, no matter how many times Mike repeats that line (again, only 3 teams last year scored that many, and one of them didn't even make the playoffs. The world champs weren't one of them). This is not a team that is going to run away with their division, but to expect that of a mid-market team is silly in the first place. Baseball is all about pennant races, and most of the recent world series winners have not been dominating in the regular season. To suggest that this team needs to be built as an obvious juggernaut is to say that we need to be like the Phillies, Tigers or Yankees. But we don't. And realistically we can't, because that kind of offensive firepower is prohibitively expensive.

I don't blame the fans for not coming. Honestly, their attendance doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme, as the cable revenue is the real revenue gap between the haves and have nots. But honestly, it does say something that a team that is legitimately in a playoff race and has been all year can't outdraw perennial losers like the Kansas City Royals. And while the weather gets used as an excuse, but in all honesty it's just simply a fact that Cleveland sports fans do not support their baseball team as much as other teams' sports fans do. Other teams get better attendance out of poorer records, worse weather, and even lower payrolls. We're not even in the bottom 9 in any of those categories (unless you really think our weather is *that bad*). What it says to me is that a large swath of fans out there don't want to support this team unless it's a steamroller. Unless it will dominate the competition like the 90s Indians. And to me, those fans are fairweather fans. Nothing wrong with that, but let's please get off the "fans should get exactly what they want" mentality. Fans are irrational, if the locals ran this ballclub it would be in flames. Same as any other team out there with a tough media market.


It is kind of surprising to see how little Cleveland supports the Indians. It’s obviously a football town. Over the last decade, globalization and challenges in the manufacturing sector of the economy have hurt the prosperity of the city – I get that. However, I think Northeast Ohio is looking up and economic activity is undoubtedly picking up. Natural resource development in PA and in OH has helped economic activity and the petrochemicals industry is making significant investment in Akron. Not to mention other energy infrastructure to be built. I don’t want to get political, but there is growth in economic activity in Northeast and Eastern Ohio right now. I don’t buy the economic argument as much as I did two years ago (although it certainly still is having an adverse impact still despite improvement).

These are small things and not likely to have a major impact, but two things I think have either hurt fan morale, and/or given Indians fans little to get excited about.

#1 – Game 1 of the 2009 World Series; Cliff Lee vs. C.C. Sabathia. That sucked as an Indians fan and I think it was quite symbolic.

#2 – There's just been very, very few marketable players. The Indians draft record was way too safe and boring over the last decade. There’s countless of boring, low ceiling college players taken very early that provided nothing for fans to get excited about. The only exciting players to come up through the Indians farm system over the last decade were Grady Sizemore and Carlos Santana. Elite, exciting talent does not sign with the Indians through free agency, and they Indians never drafted these players. There’s just been a lack of exciting, marketable players on this team for years now. Grady was really the only one that I can remember. I've never been a marketing guy, so the glitz and glam just isn't a big deal to me, but I think it matters when trying to get fans in the seats. The Indians just don't go for those kind of guys.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:36 pm

Marketing is an interesting issue for the Indians in general. I don't think that their players aren't marketable. Carlos Santana should be plenty marketable. So should Asdrubal Cabrera, Jason Kipnis, and Shin-Soo Choo. But it seems like the only time we really hear about any particular player is when they're struggling or if they've shot their mouth off on Twitter. I think it's true that the media coverage on this team is overwhelmingly negative, both online and in the local papers. There really seems to be a "waiting for the other shoe to drop" mentality that is very pervasive. I wonder sometimes if that couldn't be partially remedied by a good ad campaign. Maybe there's not enough time or energy being put into that, or getting the players in the community (as Kenny Lofton suggested). Maybe there's not enough being done to combat that negativity.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:54 pm

Best...Game....of the YEAR. WOW. Ok, maybe it had to do with being there and seeing the shocked look on Tigers fans in my section, but what incredible and improbable comeback there off arguably the best pitcher in baseball. This is the type of game that gets you pumped and makes you scream BUY at the deadline. Only 3.5 out of the division lead with 6 left against the White Sox and 9 left against the Tiggers (7-2 now on the year).


And how about Joe Smith? 2 pitches, 2 outs, and his 2nd win of the series. Starters can't catch a break on getting the 'W' (o well), but another great start by McAllister. Turning into another steal by Shapiro and company. :smile
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:55 am

Yes.

We won. We're 7 - 2 vs Tigers so far, both losses started by Lowe. We've beat Verlander twice. We couldn't beat this team last year.

I don't know why people in Cleveland don't go out to see this team, but I think all this talk about trading Choo, Perez, Cabrera or any other key player is nonsense. WE CAN WIN THE DIVISION THIS YEAR!

Santana's starting to hit. Hafner is starting to look like the Pronk again. If those two can keep contributing to what Brantley, Choo, Kipnis, and Cabrera have been doing for us, this offense will look a LOT better. We need a bat or two, but if we can't get it for a bullpen arm like Smith or a prospect not named Lindor, then so be it.

McAllister's been great, but we need to replace Lowe asap. If we can't deal for a pitcher, we need Gomez back or maybe even move Esmil Rogers into the rotation. Lowe must go though. We can't outhit his pitching. He might get one more start to prove himself, idk. If we wait for Fausto to replace him, it might be too late. Pitching will make or break us because we can't match up bat-for-bat with teams like Texas, N.Y., L.A., Detroit, ChiSox.... we lose at 1B, 3B, LF, and bench. We're winning close, low-scoring games with Detroit and that's what we'll have to do with Chicago and every other good team. We need pitching to keep the game within reach because these teams can knock the fuck outta the ball. Gimme an arm to replace Lowe, gimme Tomlin and the top 3 to make quality starts consistently, good defense, and another bat from somewhere, and we can play meaningful games in September.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:51 am

Also, the schedule is favorable, with 25 games against the weaker teams in the AL - Royals, Twins, and Mariners. With 15 games against the Tigers and White Sox the Indians will be in a position to control their own destiny to some extent.

Santana is finally starting to rake, Damon is no longer a total black hole in left, and McAlister has added a much-needed consistent starter. Masterson and Ubaldo have picked up their games after poor starts. The offensive core of Choo, Brantley, Droobs, and Kipnis has been consistent. The back end of the bullpen is still nails. Let's not kid ourselves, this team is nowhere near the Yankees or Rangers, but yeah, with the soft schedule they could win a wild card if everything falls into place. Which is why they can't trade Choo now unless the offer was ridiculous.

If they sweep the Twins or even win two and pick up another game, it will be very difficult to trade a major piece like Choo. But the Twins are at home and have two lefties going so it won't be easy. Word is the Indians will wait to the last minute to decide if they're buyers or sellers. These next three games might decide it.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:05 am

These next 3 are huge, I expect to see a busy Monday (day off) regardless the club is likely to make a cpl moves IMO for next yr or this yr.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:10 am

Just sitting here thinking about these rumored James Shields ramblings, but doesn't Wade Davis make sense for the Indians? I dunno....Arm chair GM syndrom.

EDIT: Well it might not matter what the Indians do now after the news regarding the Browns broke this morning about some sort of potential sale. Fans wont care.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:54 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Just sitting here thinking about these rumored James Shields ramblings, but doesn't Wade Davis make sense for the Indians? I dunno....Arm chair GM syndrom.


Davis is a very nice arm but question is would the Tribe keep him in the pen or pull a Masterson with him and move him back to the rotation? Would definitely help the pen (better than Accardo) and would really give them some power righties with Perez, Pestano, Smith, Davis and the Allen and Rogers. But the question would be is it worth the price to get another righty in the pen? maybe next year move him to the rotation but could be tough on the fly mid-season.

Could be an interesting guy to get if you did move Chris Perez though...move Pestano to the closers role, Davis into the setup role. Would save you money next year and 2014. Doubtful the Tribe goes that route but like you said, arm chair GM sysndrome.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:48 pm

I know the Tribe has had interest in Wade Davis in the past, I believe if they did get him it would be to start. The Rays are said to want a young ML catcher in a deal...Maybe Lou Marson and a prospect or two could get Wade Davis. With Santanas struggles I doubt they'd do that.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:01 pm

I have to think Accardo's time in the Tribe bullpen is coming to a close.
As Raffey Perez is about to return, either Accardo is moved to open a spot, or Allen gets sent back down (possible but unlikely), Sipp gets sent down (highly unlikely, they prefer having 2 lefties) or someone else is dealt away to open a spot (always a chance).

Of the possible options, I believe Accardo is outbound.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:25 pm

The angels have apparently acquired Zack Greinke. No word yet on the players involved.

I know this doesn't have much effect on our season, but a potential Weaver, Haren, Greinke, Wilson rotation is absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:32 pm

JP_Frost wrote:The angels have apparently acquired Zack Greinke. No word yet on the players involved.

I know this doesn't have much effect on our season, but a potential Weaver, Haren, Greinke, Wilson rotation is absolutely ridiculous.


I know it was doubtful for us or another team in the central to get a wild card slot but that basically seals up at least one wild card coming from the AL west.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:36 pm

Probably. Just a quick question, can both wild card teams come out of the same division?

Anyway, will be a tough race between us, Detroit, Boston, Oakland (I think they'll fade), Baltimore, Toronto and Tampa. I think that second WC spot will go to the AL East.
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