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Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

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Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:39 pm

It's that time of the year again.....time to get these threads started to talk about the games and players.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:40 pm

I don't know about you guys....but I am thrilled as hell for the start of the new season. The team may be bad or good, but at least now we get some answers on some things from the offseason and some new questions. And new stuff to talk about.....and best of all baseball every day.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Really excited as well. Though I'm a bit bummed I have to work tomorrow just when I found out the Indians game is a free view on mlb.tv

The new Marlins ballpark looks ... different. Can't wait to see that homerun thing in action. Nice to see Muhammed Ali, although it looks like his health is really going down hill. I hope this isn't one of his last appearances, but maybe it's better not to see him like this too often and just let us remember him as the energetic fighter he once was.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:04 am

I'll be at the game this afternoon. Go Tribe.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:33 am

Crappy off-season be damned! Today is the day the tribe make the storybook run to the play-offs, ripping the faces off those Tigers (this one is for you Roy) and kicking in some yankee teeth. Treating those red sox like a teenage spider monkey, sending those Angels straight to hell and watching the devil-rays sting those rangers to death right before we throw them on the grill.

BELIEVELAND!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:03 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I'll be at the game this afternoon. Go Tribe.


Here too. Not happy with the 40degree temps, but hey, it's not raining or snowing!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:59 pm

Not sure this really falls under 'game thread' but didn't want to start a new topic for it. Some early good news for the Tribe financially. Looks like the Super Two cut-off for this winter will be 2 years and 134 days. Typically the predictions by CAA tend to be pretty dead on. Brantley is at 1 year and 131 days right now and personally thought with the new CBA that he had a great shot at being a Super Two. May only save $2M or so but still nice to see. Santana also won't be Super Two at with 1 year and 115 days service time. Matt LaPorta is currently 71 games short of it...could come into play there.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:14 pm

Pestano for Closer! :razz
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:49 pm

Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Only one game, looks like ML pitchers have a definite plan of attack when facing Kipnis, he will adjust hopefully sooner then later. Santana is patient at the plate, love it. Hopefully he can use his skill to add a few more hits then he had last season.

Hanny with more early season heroics, 3 run homer and his usual solid defense. Davis not running on a bunt??? That is little league 101.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together.

Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Even though it's just 1 of 162 games, today is an example of how hard it is to build a winning baseball team for about 20 to 25 of the 30 teams.

Your total revenue dollars are much more limited, and everything you do from player drafting & development to trades has to succced almost perfectly to have decent shot at winning big....and that's very difficult. Most teams simply don't have the huge media market revenues to throw money at their mistakes.
Last edited by timdav on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:08 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Only one game, looks like ML pitchers have a definite plan of attack when facing Kipnis, he will adjust hopefully sooner then later. Santana is patient at the plate, love it. Hopefully he can use his skill to add a few more hits then he had last season.

Hanny with more early season heroics, 3 run homer and his usual solid defense. Davis not running on a bunt??? That is little league 101.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together.

Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


This was one of those 'easy' save situations. 3-run leads shouldn't be blown, but Chris Perez blows. He shouldn't be closing OR setting-up. i don't fault Acta for pulling Masterson, but I will fault him if he continues to let Chris Perez remain as closer much longer. Perez sucked last year and started off this season the same way. Our bullpen "anchor" is going to sink us. He has no control and he simply cannot strike anyone out.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:12 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Only one game, looks like ML pitchers have a definite plan of attack when facing Kipnis, he will adjust hopefully sooner then later. Santana is patient at the plate, love it. Hopefully he can use his skill to add a few more hits then he had last season.

Hanny with more early season heroics, 3 run homer and his usual solid defense. Davis not running on a bunt??? That is little league 101.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together.

Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


We need to be able to score runners from third with less than 2 outs......even if we need to do things like squeeze bunts.....I thought the Brantley AB would have been a good at bat but wanted to see the guy throw a strike first (which he didn't)....also Hanny needs to take 2nd on that ball that got away from the catcher (would have made a squeeze attempt less risky if he were at 2nd) in the 9th I would have squeezed with Kotchman up and Donald on 3rd.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:18 pm

Kotchman hasn't had a sac bunt since '07 and only had 6 in 8 yrs as a pro. Another reason I don't want him batting 2nd.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:42 am

daingean wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Only one game, looks like ML pitchers have a definite plan of attack when facing Kipnis, he will adjust hopefully sooner then later. Santana is patient at the plate, love it. Hopefully he can use his skill to add a few more hits then he had last season.

Hanny with more early season heroics, 3 run homer and his usual solid defense. Davis not running on a bunt??? That is little league 101.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together.

Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


We need to be able to score runners from third with less than 2 outs......even if we need to do things like squeeze bunts.....I thought the Brantley AB would have been a good at bat but wanted to see the guy throw a strike first (which he didn't)....also Hanny needs to take 2nd on that ball that got away from the catcher (would have made a squeeze attempt less risky if he were at 2nd) in the 9th I would have squeezed with Kotchman up and Donald on 3rd.

A couple points..

1. Runner at 3B and less than two outs.. Fundamentally sound offensive baseball gets that runner home. The Indians failed at least twice yesterday...

2. Two ways to look at Hanny not taking second:

-Hanny has to be absolutely sure he would make it to second.. indecision after taking two steps may have been due to the light / shadows around home plate at that time of the day.. Hanny was in the sun & looking toward the sun while the ball was bounced at home, but, in the shadow.. Just like a hitter watching a ball leave a pitcher's hand that crosses into the shadow, seeing may have been a problem...

-No excuse for Hanny not taking second.. WHERE WAS WIED'S ????????????????????
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:53 am

Extremely discouraging loss. The Toronto bullpen threw 11 scoreless innings. The Tribe failed to score in 14 straight innings. These guys couldn't hit in ST and nothing has changed.

Kotchman was 0-for-7 and didn't hit the ball hard once - not even foul. Nice glove, though.

Asbrubal was 1-for-7, including the DP with the bases loaded and one out. He got a pitch right down the middle, too. Looks like he is still not ready after reporting to camp out of shape.

Perez was only throwing 90-91 mph, and retired one of the six hitters he faced. The three hits he gave up were all crushed. He's clearly not ready after missing most of spring training with the oblique injury. The trainer said he was not ready to throw that hard.

So Asdrubal showing up fat and Perez stupidly throwing 100% in his first workout came back to haunt us yesterday. These guys better get it together soon.

Masterson got screwed last year with no run support and now the BP let him down. I feel for him.

Joey Bats is incredible.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:16 am

A major compounding of the melt down yesterday is the likely hood that Ubaldo will get lit up on Saturday and we will be 0 - 2 again. Last year ST was all about getting a fast start. This year ST seemed to be all about finding out who could not hit in left field.

Of note - when Duncan and Hafner were out of the order - it was really pathetic.

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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:11 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together.

Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


I was bummed that he pulled Masterson, but I don't think you can really fault Acta for the decision. Masterson was at 99 pitches on Opening Day in 40 degree weather. Pretty much any manager would have done the same there regardless of the score. Verlander got pulled in similar situation in Detroit (at 105 pitches with a shutout going and 2 run lead). Difference there was detroit could get the ball out of the infield with the bases loaded in the 9th where as the Tribe twice failed to that with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs.


Terrible game by Perez, but way, way, way too soon to be calling for his job. While I think Perez is not the best reliever on this staff (wasn't last year), you shouldn't be calling for a guy to be traded or demoted after one game.

I guess you can blame Acta for this one, but in reality it's on Perez and the offense. Acta can't hit for these guys. Don't care where that pitch was to Cabrera, can't believe he swung at the first pitch....guy he was facing hadn't thrown a strike yet had he? Cabrera just seemed way too anxious seeing only 2 outfielders out there.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:17 pm

daingean wrote:We need to be able to score runners from third with less than 2 outs......even if we need to do things like squeeze bunts.....I thought the Brantley AB would have been a good at bat but wanted to see the guy throw a strike first (which he didn't)....also Hanny needs to take 2nd on that ball that got away from the catcher (would have made a squeeze attempt less risky if he were at 2nd) in the 9th I would have squeezed with Kotchman up and Donald on 3rd.


Agree, can't believe we didn't score either time. At first I was upset Hanny didn't end up on 2nd as he was't even being held on to begin with....but really, all it would have done was get Brantley intentionally walked, so nothing different would have happened. By staying at 1B Brantley would have had at least a chance at getting a pitch to hit I guess. Still, Cabrera....ugh. That was a dagger to heart there. Ball in the outfield basically and we win right there.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:45 pm

A pretty amazing factoid about Masterson's performance yesterday....He's the 1st Indians opening day starter with 8+ IP, 10+ K, and 1 or fewer runs allowed since Bob Feller in 1946. In the live ball era (since 1920), Masterson and Feller are the only 2 Indians pitchers to accomplish the feat. Feller also did it in 1939.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:16 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together
Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


I was bummed that he pulled Masterson, but I don't think you can really fault Acta for the decision. Masterson was at 99 pitches on Opening Day in 40 degree weather. Pretty much any manager would have done the same there regardless of the score. Verlander got pulled in similar situation in Detroit (at 105 pitches with a shutout going and 2 run lead). Difference there was detroit could get the ball out of the infield with the bases loaded in the 9th where as the Tribe twice failed to that with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs.


Terrible game by Perez, but way, way, way too soon to be calling for his job. While I think Perez is not the best reliever on this staff (wasn't last year), you shouldn't be calling for a guy to be traded or demoted after one game.

I guess you can blame Acta for this one, but in reality it's on Perez and the offense. Acta can't hit for these guys. Don't care where that pitch was to Cabrera, can't believe he swung at the first pitch....guy he was facing hadn't thrown a strike yet had he? Cabrera just seemed way too anxious seeing only 2 outfielders out there.


typical inflamatory Hermie - if you read my post I clearly said if Perez continues to perform like he did in thursday's game he will be out of his closers job by the end of April. NO WHERE DO I SAY TRADE HIM or DEMOTE HIM AFTER ONE GAME. I went ahead and bolded the more relevant parts for ya. Try not being so picky and well, dickish this season. Thats what you can do to help :)
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:26 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together
Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


I was bummed that he pulled Masterson, but I don't think you can really fault Acta for the decision. Masterson was at 99 pitches on Opening Day in 40 degree weather. Pretty much any manager would have done the same there regardless of the score. Verlander got pulled in similar situation in Detroit (at 105 pitches with a shutout going and 2 run lead). Difference there was detroit could get the ball out of the infield with the bases loaded in the 9th where as the Tribe twice failed to that with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs.


Terrible game by Perez, but way, way, way too soon to be calling for his job. While I think Perez is not the best reliever on this staff (wasn't last year), you shouldn't be calling for a guy to be traded or demoted after one game.

I guess you can blame Acta for this one, but in reality it's on Perez and the offense. Acta can't hit for these guys. Don't care where that pitch was to Cabrera, can't believe he swung at the first pitch....guy he was facing hadn't thrown a strike yet had he? Cabrera just seemed way too anxious seeing only 2 outfielders out there.


typical inflamatory Hermie - if you read my post I clearly said if Perez continues to perform like he did in thursday's game he will be out of his closers job by the end of April. NO WHERE DO I SAY TRADE HIM or DEMOTE HIM AFTER ONE GAME. I went ahead and bolded the more relevant parts for ya. Try not being so picky and well, dickish this season. Thats what you can do to help :)


The part about Perez wasn't only directed at you.

Rocky55 wrote:Pestano for Closer! :razz


Yes, I know he was kidding (at least somewhat).

You did say Perez was hanging on to the job by a thread...which is extremely unlikely. His job is as secure today as it was last season. Perez wasn't great last year but was a solid (not spectacular) closer last year. His job is safe right now. As I said, it's way to early to call for his job. May not blow a game the rest of the year. Only way I can see him losing his job is if he goes on the DL for some reason (knock on wood that it doesn't happen).

My post was not inflammatory; simply stating how I felt. As far as it being "dickish"....sorry you took it that way.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:28 pm

Chris Perez had a nice save % last yr. and that's what really matters, right?

I think Acta HAS to be concerned with Perez's performance last season when he looks a little deeper. In 59.2 IP, he K'd only 39 and gave up 26 walks. His 46 hits and 5 HRs allowed (BAA .215 OPS .648) were fine, but the fact remains that he simply doesn't miss enough bats. His BABIP was .240 despite the fact he gave up twice as many flyballs as he did grounders. I'm no sabermetrics geek, but even I can see that Perez was LUCKY last season. Closers who cannot put out the fire with the K or the GIDP are not going to be reliable.

Pestano, Smith, and Sipp all out-pitched Perez last season. With Wheeler now in the mix, along with guys like Lee and Hagadone in AAA, I think Perez is not only in danger of losing his closer's job in the near future, but possibly ANY late-inning role. Smoke and mirrors ain't gonna get it done again. Perez needs to strike people out, because his balls in play are gonna start finding holes to fall into.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:00 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Anyone else besides me a little bummed Acta didn't let Masterson try to finish up the game? He did stike out 2 batters in the 8th and was in the zone. I know its only the 1st game and Masterson had thrown 99 pitches, but he was clearly performing quite well and should have been handed the ball in the 9th IMO.

Kinda think Acta shoulders this loss - CPerez is hanging on to his closing job by a thread and could be traded or demoted (if you want to call it that) to set-up guy by April's end if he doesn't pull it together
Good signs and bad signs, exactly what was to be expected.


I was bummed that he pulled Masterson, but I don't think you can really fault Acta for the decision. Masterson was at 99 pitches on Opening Day in 40 degree weather. Pretty much any manager would have done the same there regardless of the score. Verlander got pulled in similar situation in Detroit (at 105 pitches with a shutout going and 2 run lead). Difference there was detroit could get the ball out of the infield with the bases loaded in the 9th where as the Tribe twice failed to that with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs.


Terrible game by Perez, but way, way, way too soon to be calling for his job. While I think Perez is not the best reliever on this staff (wasn't last year), you shouldn't be calling for a guy to be traded or demoted after one game.

I guess you can blame Acta for this one, but in reality it's on Perez and the offense. Acta can't hit for these guys. Don't care where that pitch was to Cabrera, can't believe he swung at the first pitch....guy he was facing hadn't thrown a strike yet had he? Cabrera just seemed way too anxious seeing only 2 outfielders out there.


typical inflamatory Hermie - if you read my post I clearly said if Perez continues to perform like he did in thursday's game he will be out of his closers job by the end of April. NO WHERE DO I SAY TRADE HIM or DEMOTE HIM AFTER ONE GAME. I went ahead and bolded the more relevant parts for ya. Try not being so picky and well, dickish this season. Thats what you can do to help :)


The part about Perez wasn't only directed at you.

Rocky55 wrote:Pestano for Closer! :razz


Yes, I know he was kidding (at least somewhat).

You did say Perez was hanging on to the job by a thread...which is extremely unlikely. His job is as secure today as it was last season. Perez wasn't great last year but was a solid (not spectacular) closer last year. His job is safe right now. As I said, it's way to early to call for his job. May not blow a game the rest of the year. Only way I can see him losing his job is if he goes on the DL for some reason (knock on wood that it doesn't happen).

My post was not inflammatory; simply stating how I felt. As far as it being "dickish"....sorry you took it that way.

Damn Hermie, i didn't think you cared anymore. :razz

I just wanted to be the 1st to say it.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:22 pm

Went to the opener with my oldest son. We froze our butt's off but had a blast, it was the first opener for both of us.

Kotchman, based only on one game, is the worst hitter I have ever seen. Worst...hitter...EVER!!! He
needs to hit off a tee...

Why wasn't the Jays pitcher ejected after nearly beaning Choo? After the Ump issued the warning when Masterson came close to hitting a Toronto batter (interestingly, Romero had a hit batter and several close calls without a warning),isn't it an automatic ejection when a guy nearly beans a batter?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:57 am

The concern about Perez is that his K rate per 9 innings has dropped over the last three years:

2009 10.7
2010 8.7
2011 5.9

He struck out half as many batters in 2011 as he did only two years earlier. Thursday he struck out none out of six and the gun had his fastball at 90-91 mph, which is Josh Tomlin on a good day.

OTOH, his opposing OPS dropped from .667 in '09 to .648 in '11, so on the whole he's more effective despite the huge drop in strikeouts. Plus, he saved 90% of his chances last year, which is certainly acceptable. Maybe he's pitching smarter, not faster.

The drop in velocity and K rate is concerning. He certainly had nothing on Thursday as he gave up two line drives and a double high off the wall while retiring only one of six hitters he faced.

I'll be watching his next outing closely. It might be a good idea to have him pitch an inning in a non-save situation, although he's always pitched like crap in those situations.

Can Perez be successful throwing 90 mph? Does he need to build up his arm strength after missing three weeks of spring training? Maybe he should pitch in mop-up situations until he can hit 94 mph in bullpen sessions.

The pitcher who almost beaned Choo wasn't thrown out because it happened 12 innings after the warning. He obviously wasn't trying to hit Choo. You don't want to put the winning run on base in the bottom of the 14th with Santana due up. You also don't want to get tossed when your bullpen is running low on relievers.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:35 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The concern about Perez is that his K rate per 9 innings has dropped over the last three years:

2009 10.7
2010 8.7
2011 5.9

He struck out half as many batters in 2011 as he did only two years earlier. Thursday he struck out none out of six and the gun had his fastball at 90-91 mph, which is Josh Tomlin on a good day.

OTOH, his opposing OPS dropped from .667 in '09 to .648 in '11, so on the whole he's more effective despite the huge drop in strikeouts. Plus, he saved 90% of his chances last year, which is certainly acceptable. Maybe he's pitching smarter, not faster.

The drop in velocity and K rate is concerning. He certainly had nothing on Thursday as he gave up two line drives and a double high off the wall while retiring only one of six hitters he faced.

I'll be watching his next outing closely. It might be a good idea to have him pitch an inning in a non-save situation, although he's always pitched like crap in those situations.

Can Perez be successful throwing 90 mph? Does he need to build up his arm strength after missing three weeks of spring training? Maybe he should pitch in mop-up situations until he can hit 94 mph in bullpen sessions.

The pitcher who almost beaned Choo wasn't thrown out because it happened 12 innings after the warning. He obviously wasn't trying to hit Choo. You don't want to put the winning run on base in the bottom of the 14th with Santana due up. You also don't want to get tossed when your bullpen is running low on relievers.


The drop in K-rate is definitely not something you want to see. However, it is a reason I'd rather see him in the closers role still. Sure, I'd much, much rather see my closer up there mowing down the opposition and not causing my heart to stop every time he's in there. But....if you move say Pestano to the closers role, then what...you got CP in the setup role?

I'd rather see Pestano coming out of the pen in the 7th inning with a runner on third and 1 out than CP. You're really looking for a K there. Perez is not our best reliever....really though the closers role should be easy. You come in with no one on base virtually every time. As long as you have a good mind for it (which CP seems to have), you can be very effective there. The bullpen is just better IMO with Perez in the closers role and Pestano as the setup guy.


As far as the Choo thing....I don't disagree with what you say, but really why even warn both teams in the first place? Masterson threw two inside pitches. Hardly "warning" worthy. Either don't warn teams or throw the pitcher out when he throws at a guys head. Was surprised though that Choo didn't get tossed for approaching the mound.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:37 pm

Regarding Jimenez; The velocities are certainly down on his fastball but you can tell that he's really toned down his delivery -- there is noticeably less effort than in years' past. The reports on his fastball being straight were wrong. He's still getting good run and sink on his fastball. I'm not worried about an injury the way I was before after watching him this afternoon. It's just less effort in his delivery. You're going to hear the cliche, "he's more of a pitcher than a thrower" now.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:12 pm

Man, the Tribe has been REALLY spoiling two great starting pitching performances... Can't generate ANY offense and the 'pen has been somewhat of a letdown so far.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:52 pm

It was encouraging to see Ubaldo pitch well today. If he can keep it up we could be in good shape. I don't know if Kipnis batting eighth is the right move. I hope they move him up in the lineup at some point. It is good to have the off days early in the season if every game is going to go extra innings.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:40 pm

I'd be worried about this season if it weren't for the old rule of thumb: since it's Spring, the pitching is ahead of the hitting (sic). :)
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:46 pm

Joe Smith for Closer! :razz
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:39 pm

8 runs in 28 innings won't win many games.

As been posting for 3-4 months this team needs to be able to score 850 runs this year to reach the playoffs. The line up needs fixing. Impact player in CF now if the team wants to get to the playoffs.

Amen.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:49 pm

A longer-term concern is the acute lack of impact bats in the Tribe's minor league system. Free agents aren't coming to middle/smaller markets, so maybe try to trade "excess" of starting/relief pitching at AAA/AA for a hitter seems to be the only real path to improvement.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:04 am

Despite the two losses there are some very encouraging signs.

Masterson and Ubaldo faced 48 batters and allowed 3 hits. If they keep pitching like this, or even close, the Indians will have as good a front end as any team in the league. Ubaldo was spectacular until he lost his command in the 7th. When he's getting his breaking pitches over he's dominating.

Chris Perez got back on the horse yesterday. His velocity was up to 93 and Manny said he was hitting 95 in spring training. He had Joey Bats swinging and missing.

Yesterday's game was lost on two plays, both a matter of inches. Hafner's ground ball over 3rd base was called foul and Brantley just missed catching the home run in the 9th. The Tribe could very easily be 2-0.

On the down side, Kotchman is all messed up at the plate. Not only is he 0-for-12, but he has not once hit the ball out of the infield. Nine groundouts, two strikeouts, and a pop-up to the infield. I have never seen a worse offensive performance by a first baseman in my life. Not so much as a hard foul ball in 12 at-bats.

Brantley is also not making good contact and is taking too many fastballs for strikes. He's one of the least aggressive hitters I've ever seen. Never swings at the first pitch, giving away a strike too often. In fact, I couldn't believe how many times Tribe hitters took fastballs for strikes when they were ahead in the count, even guys like Hafner and Duncan, who make their living off fastballs.

Speaking of Pronk,if he keeps taking pitches to left field against the shift, he's going to have a productive season. Yesterday he singled and doubled to left, although the double was mistakenly ruled a foul ball.

If the Tribe falls out of contention, Joe Smith and Raffie could get us some decent prospects. They both look great so far and we have CC Lee and Hagadone ready to take their places.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby indians1 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:45 am

I am on the indians side when it comes to not spending huge bucks on free agents, if you can produce guys out of your farm system that can be impact hitters.

The indians have been horrible when it comes to producing their own talent. The every day players that have been impact players - asdrubal, choo, hafner, grady, brantley, santana, all came from trades. The only guy that they have produced from their farm system was victor.

Their is still a major deficit in talent evaluation on the offensive side. They seem to be better with pitching, but kipnis seems to be the only guy with superstar potential.

For the indians to be competitive, you have to produce your own, joey votto and evan longoria, joe mauer, or morneau. The indians are not getting consistent play from their everyday players and it is hurting them. Can we really say with certainty that choo will play like he did 2 and 3 years ago? can asdrubal stay in shape? can hafner, and grady stay healthy? , can santana hit for high average? (yet to be determined). We need superstars that we know going into the season, will produce big numbers.

That is how we did it in the 90's. We knew we could count on thome, albert belle, manny ramirez, kenny lofton, sandy alomar to have good seasons. We knew thome and ramirez were going to give us at least 30 HR's and 100 RBI's.. That is what is missing.

The indians front office can't have it both ways. If you are not going to spend big bucks in free agency, then you have to produce your own.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:10 am

Some early observations..... like others have said Kotchman's bat has been pitiful, but his glove looks stellar.

On the other hand, Brantley has swung a weak bat and just looked downright slow..... maybe even lazy..... in the OF. He doesn't look like a guy you want manning CF for the long haul.

I think overall though, we've had a pretty vivid reminder of what this offense will be if Choo/Santana/Hafner don't hit like they're capable of..... that middle order is the key plain and simple.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:12 am

Cespedes looks like a good buy for the A's so far. That's one the Indians could have tried harder for, given our lack of power hitting OF's. I know there was some concern over his talents but the power is legit. Dude can crush the ball.
Last edited by Rocky55 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:30 pm

Kotchman is on pace to score 81 runs, drive in 81, and go 0-960. Not a bad Stat line!!!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:58 pm

indians1 wrote:I am on the indians side when it comes to not spending huge bucks on free agents, if you can produce guys out of your farm system that can be impact hitters.

The indians have been horrible when it comes to producing their own talent. The every day players that have been impact players - asdrubal, choo, hafner, grady, brantley, santana, all came from trades. The only guy that they have produced from their farm system was victor.

Their is still a major deficit in talent evaluation on the offensive side. They seem to be better with pitching, but kipnis seems to be the only guy with superstar potential.

For the indians to be competitive, you have to produce your own, joey votto and evan longoria, joe mauer, or morneau. The indians are not getting consistent play from their everyday players and it is hurting them. Can we really say with certainty that choo will play like he did 2 and 3 years ago? can asdrubal stay in shape? can hafner, and grady stay healthy? , can santana hit for high average? (yet to be determined). We need superstars that we know going into the season, will produce big numbers.

That is how we did it in the 90's. We knew we could count on thome, albert belle, manny ramirez, kenny lofton, sandy alomar to have good seasons. We knew thome and ramirez were going to give us at least 30 HR's and 100 RBI's.. That is what is missing.

The indians front office can't have it both ways. If you are not going to spend big bucks in free agency, then you have to produce your own.


Belle was a bit of damaged goods coming out of college (due to being suspended by his College coach) but the Indians took a gamble on him. Thome was a mid round Community College SS with a nice left handed swing and he really developed but I don't even think the Indians envisioned him blowing up (physically)into a 3B->1B->DH but he had the tools to be a hitter. Ramirez was Mickey White putting his foot down w/Peters and Hart to draft him because he saw the tools. I think the Indians stopped taking chances on tools and went with safe college players (Mills, Sowers, Huff, Aubrey, Guthrie) but lately you've seen the switch with Chiz (CC 3B w/tools), Lindor, Howard....I don't think the issue was scouting but in prioritizing talent. Anyway you look at it, you have to hit a home run or acquire the guys (like Grady, Choo, Ascrubal, Santana) a few years before they are major league ready because this team is not going to sign a big name FA and they are not going to be able to acquire an established guy and still have the talent around the acquisition to be competitive (basically because they don't have the 5 Star prospects it will take to get the guy).
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:58 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Cespedes looks like a good buy for the A's so far. That's one the Indians could have tried harder for, given our lake of power hitting OF's. I know there was some concern over his talents but the power is legit. Dude can crush the ball.


His power is definitely for real, but that was never in question. He's struck out 7 times in 13 ABs. I think that average will end up .250 or below by the end of the year.

I think he's going to end up around .240 with a lot of K's. I think he's going to struggle once he faces better, right-handed breaking balls on a consistent basis. The HR's he's hit have been off Jason Vargas and two mediocre middle relievers. I think Cespedes profiles as a very good "mistake" hitter, but struggles vs. good pitching and breaking balls.

But Rocky, if he can do .240 with 35 HR's while playing CF -- that's a good player that would help the Indians. I'm still skeptical of him, but would prefer him over S. Duncan for sure.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:00 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:Cespedes looks like a good buy for the A's so far. That's one the Indians could have tried harder for, given our lake of power hitting OF's. I know there was some concern over his talents but the power is legit. Dude can crush the ball.


His power is definitely for real, but that was never in question. He's struck out 7 times in 13 ABs. I think that average will end up .250 or below by the end of the year.

I think he's going to end up around .240 with a lot of K's. I think he's going to struggle once he faces better, right-handed breaking balls on a consistent basis. The HR's he's hit have been off Jason Vargas and two mediocre middle relievers. I think Cespedes profiles as a very good "mistake" hitter, but struggles vs. good pitching and breaking balls.

But Rocky, if he can do .240 with 35 HR's while playing CF -- that's a good player that would help the Indians. I'm still skeptical of him, but would prefer him over S. Duncan for sure.

Agree with what you said OB. If he does hit .240 it won't be the .240 that Santana hits with all of the walks to boost the OBP. I also saw him wave at a breaking ball by King Felix but lots of better players than him do that. I think the numbers you posted seem slightly optimistic but reasonable for this year. I could see that being a normal year for him in a couple of years. Seems like a valuable guy to have.

Today's game makes me feel a bit better than yesterday. I will say that we should be in lots of games this year if the starting pitching holds up. I we could just get some hitting besides Santana, wo knows?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:22 pm

Nice win today. Happy birthday Mr. Santana! Kotchman got the ball out of the infield. Perez with another nail biter. And the Tigers are 3-0...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:55 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:Nice win today. Happy birthday Mr. Santana! Kotchman got the ball out of the infield. Perez with another nail biter. And the Tigers are 3-0...


The Tigers may be 3-0, but the Yanks and Red Sox are 0-3. I'll take it. :twisted
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:38 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:Nice win today. Happy birthday Mr. Santana! Kotchman got the ball out of the infield. Perez with another nail biter. And the Tigers are 3-0...

Marty, your mancrush on Kotchman is showing. :biggrin
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:54 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Nice win today. Happy birthday Mr. Santana! Kotchman got the ball out of the infield. Perez with another nail biter. And the Tigers are 3-0...


Kotchman actually looked a lot better at the plate then the first 2 games (which I thought he looked pathetic)... nice hit to lf.

Lowe pitched well. The way he pitched last year, I'm not sure he would have made it out of the 4th inning (which kind of looks like much of his problems last year may have had to do with the DUI - arrested for but not convicted).

It's still early.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:43 am

Lowe actually had a very normal Derek Lowe year. I don't know why people keep harping on about his supposedly poor performance, because his 2011 stats are almost identical to his career numbers.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby daingean » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:55 am

JP_Frost wrote:Lowe actually had a very normal Derek Lowe year. I don't know why people keep harping on about his supposedly poor performance, because his 2011 stats are almost identical to his career numbers.


I watched most of Derek's starts last year (living here in Atlanta) and last year was not a normal year for him. Maybe stats wise (but his 9-17 5.05 are really only matched in badness by his 2004 stats) was close but it was very abnormal year for him...he would be cruising (shutout through 3 or 4 innings) then give up a 6 spot or 7 spot. He seldom made it through the 6th and never put together 3 or 4 good starts in a row. He really didn't give the Braves much last year in terms of quality starts. I know Braves fans were elated to get rid of the guy.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:20 am

Random thoughts on the opening series.

When it's cold out, you never know if you're watching good pitching or bad hitting. However, we do know that Toronto has a pretty good offense. So right now you have to be pleased with the SP we have seen so far.

The Indians offense has been as advertised. The guy I'm concerned about is Choo. I thought he might ride a fast start as a way to restore his confidence. Until he puts some multi-hit games together, the middle of the lineup will not consistently be a factor.

I know Kotchman isn't hitting much. But he has been a pleasure to watch in the field. As long as the pitchers keep throwing ground balls, I guess we can live with the low production of his bat.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:44 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:
The Indians offense has been as advertised. The guy I'm concerned about is Choo. I thought he might ride a fast start as a way to restore his confidence. Until he puts some multi-hit games together, the middle of the lineup will not consistently be a factor.

I know Kotchman isn't hitting much. But he has been a pleasure to watch in the field. As long as the pitchers keep throwing ground balls, I guess we can live with the low production of his bat.


As advertised? They're hitting .153 as a team. Kotchman is 1-for-16, Brantley 1-13, Kipnis 2-13 and Choo 2-13. I didn't see that advertisement.

If the 3rd base ump doesn't blow that call on Hafner's ground ball on Saturday, they're 2-1. If CP doesn't blow a 3-run save in the opener we're 3-0, despite the .153 team BA.

Obviously the starters can't maintain the 1.23 ERA they've put up so far, but I love what I've seen. Just need the bats to wake up, which they will.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:14 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Joe Smith for Closer! :razz


ha, you are now 2 for 2 in jinxing Tribe bullpen arms!
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