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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:51 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
ClevelandBlues wrote:I am not sure Pestano would return as much in a trade, as he doesn't have as much of a track record as Perez. If Perez were traded and Pestano flopped there are still other options. Hagadone could be an option. Im not sure if he is ready for that role yet, but he could be in the near future. Rafael Perez and Joe Smith are solid relievers and would not embarrass themselves too much. Neither would be ideal though as they both are specialist type pitchers. They could decide to go with a closer by committee. Rondon could eventually be an option if they decide they no longer want him to start. Same with Knapp.


From the intel I have gathered, Pestano would return more in a trade. Viewed higher as a late inning reliever than Chris Perez. Two more years of control, much cheaper, and probably more effective as a closer. So, yes, the Indians likely would get more for Pestano.

But it would be foolish to deal him. You then leave Perez, a VERY ordinary closer, as your only option. All the signs point to him having a lot of struggles next year as the numbers will catch up and the save rate will decrease. The Indians need to seriously consider trading Perez if the opportunity arises where a good player comes in return. I'd be fine with bringing Perez back, but I still think and have felt since the middle of last season that Pestano should be closing out games.

In the event Pestano would get hurt, then the Indians would have to look at other options. At this time last year did anyone think Pestano would be a legit closer candidate? No. So, by midseason next year some of their young, inexperienced arms like Putnam, Judy, Hagadone, or Lee may step up and be that backup closer.


Did you have as a goal today to use the word "intel" in a posting?.. Pestano as a closer for the Padres with a return for what the Indians need just makes sense for both parties.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:02 pm

Interesting. Although I guess it makes sense. What makes Pestano more valuable to us would also make him more valuable to other teams. I agree that we should look into trading Perez, but the problem is there are a lot of closer types on the market right now. Do you think it would make more sense to try and trade him in July when there are likely to be a lot of teams looking for bullpen help? We might get a better package for him then.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:16 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:Interesting. Although I guess it makes sense. What makes Pestano more valuable to us would also make him more valuable to other teams. I agree that we should look into trading Perez, but the problem is there are a lot of closer types on the market right now. Do you think it would make more sense to try and trade him in July when there are likely to be a lot of teams looking for bullpen help? We might get a better package for him then.

Trading deadline deals do carry a sense of "urgency" with them.. so the value / return could be higher as you've stated..The problem with that.. the Indians may be one of the bigger "BUYERS" at that point.. so they'll need all the "good" options they can muster...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:28 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:
toledobuck wrote:I really am surprised by the rule 5 additions to the 40 but the Tribe brass knows more about this team that we do so we have to keep believing. In any event, either Salazar has come back with an absolute vengeance after TJ or they just believe he is the best prospect in our system above the other prospects. McFarland has performed well the past couple years and has looked like one of the better starters in the AFL this year. I am quite surprised that Bryson was left off as well. I can see why Stowell was unprotected with his highly erratic last two seasons. However, I would have stashed Bryson and McFarland instead of Diaz and Salazar but what do I know.

Hope this is again another uneventful rule 5 for the Tribe that gets talked about much more than it is worth.

If a FA is signed soon, I would guestimate that Kluber would likely be the first one off the 40.

Lastly, I understand the Tribe leaving off A. Perez and Araujo but they better pray that they do not lose one of those two guys as they are both likely going to be fantastic major league players. I just can't see how either one is ready for the pros yet but stranger things have happened.


Im a little concerned over losing Araujo too. Although he doesn't have much experience above rookie ball, 6'6" hard throwing lefties do not exactly grow on trees. A team like the Astros whose season is pretty much over before it starts would be smart to draft him and try to stash him in the back of the bullpen. I hope this doesn't happen, but it is not out of the realm of possibility.


We should say goodbye to Bryson too. If the Indians could survive with Durbin in the pen all year, Bryson is a lock to be taken. A 96 mph fastball with a devastating slider translates into rule 5 selection. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:52 pm

Here's some good insight from a scout:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/rule-5-decisions-provide-valuable-insight/

In short, it's quite possible we are overvaluing the Indians prospects here. More than likely, they were left off the 40 man for a reason.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:19 pm

Moved to "Competitive Balance" Thread
Last edited by GeronimoSon on Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:27 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:CBA Tidbit # 1: "..Teams in the ten smallest markets and with the ten lowest revenues will enter a lottery for six additional first and second round picks, according to Bill Shaikin of the LA Times..."

So, six first and second round picks.. pretty much guarantees the Indians will be getting some of that..



hmmm...how much will this really help when combined with luxury taxes for over spending? You get an extra pick but we are going to tax you if you over sign. My guess is teams will end up signing only a fraction of their 1st 10 picks (going over slot for 1 - 3 players). We would have been better with a hard slot than this.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:46 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:CBA Tidbit # 1: "..Teams in the ten smallest markets and with the ten lowest revenues will enter a lottery for six additional first and second round picks, according to Bill Shaikin of the LA Times..."

So, six first and second round picks.. pretty much guarantees the Indians will be getting some of that..



hmmm...how much will this really help when combined with luxury taxes for over spending? You get an extra pick but we are going to tax you if you over sign. My guess is teams will end up signing only a fraction of their 1st 10 picks (going over slot for 1 - 3 players). We would have been better with a hard slot than this.


Moved to "Competitive Balance" Thread
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:26 pm

I think Chris Perez is a real trade asset. Not that he is that great bc he's not but he is an "All Star" closer and obviously experienced at closing out gms. Honestly, I think we could feel a bit dissappointed in the return if he was dealt, but I'm all for it honestly. There are other guys who could step up as Pestano has as mentioned by others... Lee, Hagadone, Putnam, Judy... I'd be willing to say Sturdevant, Burns, Bryson and Stowell. Who knows maybe Rondon and DLC end up dominate bullpen arms, although it would be disappointing It is still possible IMO.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:10 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think Chris Perez is a real trade asset. Not that he is that great bc he's not but he is an "All Star" closer and obviously experienced at closing out gms. Honestly, I think we could feel a bit dissappointed in the return if he was dealt, but I'm all for it honestly. There are other guys who could step up as Pestano has as mentioned by others... Lee, Hagadone, Putnam, Judy... I'd be willing to say Sturdevant, Burns, Bryson and Stowell. Who knows maybe Rondon and DLC end up dominate bullpen arms, although it would be disappointing It is still possible IMO.


In instances when a player is evaluated by other teams, his value is skewed negatively as that team doesn't see what the player has contributed to the effort that doesn't show up in the box score. Chris Perez may have some negative peripheral stats.. but there can be no doubt, when the game is on the line, he closes the game. When a smart GM is evaluating a player acquisition, they can:

-play up the negatives / peripherals in the hope of reducing the cost..
-pay the price..

An example of this kind of public relations onslaught involves the stated desire to acquire Eduardo Nunez of the Yankees for the Braves Jair Jurrgens (Is it just me or does JeanMar comp well to Jair?)... Several Yankee fans I've spoken with have made the claim this back up utility infielder would be a starter for "other" teams (read lesser teams). Add in ALL the injuries to Jair, his drop in velocity, he probably even has felony charges pending somewhere and he threw at his own son in a father son picnic game.. In other words, reducing the perceived value of a player by pointing out all the "bad things" (reduction in K/9 rate.. increase in BB/9 rate, etc) gives the perception that the player has reduced value.. At the end of the day, Chris Perez still closes the game 9 out of 10 times...is one of the better closers in MLB.. and is still young and under control.

That said, there is no reason to be disappointed in the return...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:16 pm

It's being reported that Sizemore has agreed to a 1 year deal with the Indians worth 5 million, plus 4 million in incentives.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:27 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:It's being reported that Sizemore has agreed to a 1 year deal with the Indians worth 5 million, plus 4 million in incentives.


Little pricey but still think it could work out. Even if he only gets back to 2009 form, he'd be worth that money. Going to be interesting to see what the coresponding 40-man move will be...my guess is DLC unless there's a trade in the works...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:29 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:It's being reported that Sizemore has agreed to a 1 year deal with the Indians worth 5 million, plus 4 million in incentives.


I hope Grady gets meets the incentives and gets the whole amount. That would mean he had a whale of a season. Of course that would have cost the Indians an extra $500K (the amount for declining the option).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:03 pm

It's an okay deal. I'm a little indifferent on the matter, but it could be a bargain. It's also nice to see Sizemore staying loyal to the Tribe so hopefully it pays off.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:47 pm

THRILLED to have Grady back in the Wigwam.. good job by CA.. :s_thumbsup
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:13 pm

All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:02 pm

I'm okay with the Sizemore signing as long as they sign another OF and a 1b too. Sizemore is valuable when healthy but how long has it been. Truth be told I would not be too concerned about Sizemore hitting his incentives.

Im curious just who is on the Tribes radar. I do believe we will see a cpl minor trades beyond the Lowe deal.
The lineup could stand a feasible player like Cody Ross who has some pop and hits RH. His numbers weren't that great last yr but if he'd sign a 1 yr 3 mil. Deal like Ryan Doumit I'd do it. Ross hit only .240 last yr and 14 hrs wouldn't be a tremendous upgrade but might be worth a gamble on a player like him. While Duncan could possibly do similar he doesn't have a proven track record.

Honestly I still believe the Tribe fills the need for a bat through trade although BJ Upton now seems unlikely. Chris Iannetta is still a player the Tribe might consider as well as some guys who are not tendered contracts.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:59 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.


If Grady were to be sidelined.. short term, the combination of Jason Donald and Shelly Duncan could fill the void with Michael Brantley ably handling anything hit by any opponent in CF... Ezequiel Carrera & Tim Fedroff would also be considered for CF as well as Thomas Neal for LF. There are enough 'bodies' to cover a short term solution. Who knows.. perhaps in his second time around Zeke the Streak could become a regular or the kind of player the Indians acquired for Ed Taubensee from the DisAstros way back when..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:35 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:Interesting. Although I guess it makes sense. What makes Pestano more valuable to us would also make him more valuable to other teams. I agree that we should look into trading Perez, but the problem is there are a lot of closer types on the market right now. Do you think it would make more sense to try and trade him in July when there are likely to be a lot of teams looking for bullpen help? We might get a better package for him then.


You also run the risk that Perez blows up and his mediocre 2011 numbers catch up with him in the first half, which is why trading him now may be more beneficial.

Who said being a GM was not hard? :angel:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:41 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.


If Grady were to be sidelined.. short term, the combination of Jason Donald and Shelly Duncan could fill the void with Michael Brantley ably handling anything hit by any opponent in CF... Ezequiel Carrera & Tim Fedroff would also be considered for CF as well as Thomas Neal for LF. There are enough 'bodies' to cover a short term solution. Who knows.. perhaps in his second time around Zeke the Streak could become a regular or the kind of player the Indians acquired for Ed Taubensee from the DisAstros way back when..


Yeah, those options really helped last year. If Jason Donald, Shelley Duncan or Ezekiel Carrera are PLan B for any Sizemore/Brantley/Choo injury as every day options....we are screwed.

With the Sizemore it is imperative that they still go out and sign a veteran outfielder, preferably one that hits right-handed and can also play some CF.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:48 am

Isn't Mike Cameron a free agent?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:45 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'm okay with the Sizemore signing as long as they sign another OF and a 1b too. Sizemore is valuable when healthy but how long has it been. Truth be told I would not be too concerned about Sizemore hitting his incentives.

Im curious just who is on the Tribes radar. I do believe we will see a cpl minor trades beyond the Lowe deal.
The lineup could stand a feasible player like Cody Ross who has some pop and hits RH. His numbers weren't that great last yr but if he'd sign a 1 yr 3 mil. Deal like Ryan Doumit I'd do it. Ross hit only .240 last yr and 14 hrs wouldn't be a tremendous upgrade but might be worth a gamble on a player like him. While Duncan could possibly do similar he doesn't have a proven track record.

Honestly I still believe the Tribe fills the need for a bat through trade although BJ Upton now seems unlikely. Chris Iannetta is still a player the Tribe might consider as well as some guys who are not tendered contracts.


I still think signing Ramon Hernandez would be an excellent move. He can catch when Santana isn't, and play 1b when Santana is catching if they're done with LaPorta. Who I'm not ready to kick to the curb yet. If Hernandez could be signed for 2 years with an option then he would be the kind of DH that Acta wants when Hafner is gone. One that can put a glove on too.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:28 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.


If Grady were to be sidelined.. short term, the combination of Jason Donald and Shelly Duncan could fill the void with Michael Brantley ably handling anything hit by any opponent in CF... Ezequiel Carrera & Tim Fedroff would also be considered for CF as well as Thomas Neal for LF. There are enough 'bodies' to cover a short term solution. Who knows.. perhaps in his second time around Zeke the Streak could become a regular or the kind of player the Indians acquired for Ed Taubensee from the DisAstros way back when..


Yeah, those options really helped last year. If Jason Donald, Shelley Duncan or Ezekiel Carrera are PLan B for any Sizemore/Brantley/Choo injury as every day options....we are screwed.

With the Sizemore it is imperative that they still go out and sign a veteran outfielder, preferably one that hits right-handed and can also play some CF.


I think you're selling Donald a bit short, but agree mostly. Think Andruw Jones should be a target still. While he hasn't really played much CF lately and clearly belongs at the corner spot, he defintiely could fill in at times in CF should Grady go down, though I'm sure Brantley would play there first. Jones has hit lefties well and is actually pretty solid defensively in RF and LF, so solid backup/platoon guy. Shouldn't cost a lot either.


Also still think a guy like Nick Swisher would be a perfect addition if you can pry him from the Yanks (sounds like he is available). Doesn't play CF (though could in a pinch), but hits lefties very well and could also start at 1B. That moneyball/good OBP guy the Tribe likes too. Not sure the Tribe and Yanks match up directly on a deal unless they really like Carmona or Tomlin, but maybe getting a 3rd team involved (like the A's and a Gio trade?) could work....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:36 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.


If Grady were to be sidelined.. short term, the combination of Jason Donald and Shelly Duncan could fill the void with Michael Brantley ably handling anything hit by any opponent in CF... Ezequiel Carrera & Tim Fedroff would also be considered for CF as well as Thomas Neal for LF. There are enough 'bodies' to cover a short term solution. Who knows.. perhaps in his second time around Zeke the Streak could become a regular or the kind of player the Indians acquired for Ed Taubensee from the DisAstros way back when..


Yeah, those options really helped last year. If Jason Donald, Shelley Duncan or Ezekiel Carrera are PLan B for any Sizemore/Brantley/Choo injury as every day options....we are screwed.

With the Sizemore it is imperative that they still go out and sign a veteran outfielder, preferably one that hits right-handed and can also play some CF.


I think you're selling Donald a bit short, but agree mostly. Think Andruw Jones should be a target still. While he hasn't really played much CF lately and clearly belongs at the corner spot, he defintiely could fill in at times in CF should Grady go down, though I'm sure Brantley would play there first. Jones has hit lefties well and is actually pretty solid defensively in RF and LF, so solid backup/platoon guy. Shouldn't cost a lot either.


Also still think a guy like Nick Swisher would be a perfect addition if you can pry him from the Yanks (sounds like he is available). Doesn't play CF (though could in a pinch), but hits lefties very well and could also start at 1B. That moneyball/good OBP guy the Tribe likes too. Not sure the Tribe and Yanks match up directly on a deal unless they really like Carmona or Tomlin, but maybe getting a 3rd team involved (like the A's and a Gio trade?) could work....

I am with you and Tony on this. It seems too much to expect the perfect OF storm where Grady, Choo and Brantley are completely healthy and returns to their best form. Will Grady be 2007 ability where he hits 30 HRs and steals 30 bases while playing Gold Glove defense in CF? Is Choo healthy enough mentally and physically to be the 20/20 player of 2010 while learning to defend? I really like Brantley but injuries have played a big part in limiting his advancement IMO. Will he finally achieve his potential? Is Duncan really a full time player and Donald ready to defend the OF at a ML level after not playing a professional game there? I was always taught that if you repeat the same thing over and over and expect different results you are not too bright. Right now it looks too me like the Indians may be doing that with the roster, not just the OF. I hope these moves so far exceed my expectations and the Indians add another productive player or more but right now it looks like the same flawed team that finished 2011. Still looks like bad defense and inability to hit LHP with three starting pitchers who need turnabout from 2011. Just seems like hoping for the best in 2012 but ready to be more serious about 2013 when payroll will be more favorable. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:37 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:All I can say is - I hope they have a plan B for a regular in CF.


If Grady were to be sidelined.. short term, the combination of Jason Donald and Shelly Duncan could fill the void with Michael Brantley ably handling anything hit by any opponent in CF... Ezequiel Carrera & Tim Fedroff would also be considered for CF as well as Thomas Neal for LF. There are enough 'bodies' to cover a short term solution. Who knows.. perhaps in his second time around Zeke the Streak could become a regular or the kind of player the Indians acquired for Ed Taubensee from the DisAstros way back when..


Yeah, those options really helped last year. If Jason Donald, Shelley Duncan or Ezekiel Carrera are PLan B for any Sizemore/Brantley/Choo injury as every day options....we are screwed.

With the Sizemore it is imperative that they still go out and sign a veteran outfielder, preferably one that hits right-handed and can also play some CF.


I think you're selling Donald a bit short, but agree mostly. Think Andruw Jones should be a target still. While he hasn't really played much CF lately and clearly belongs at the corner spot, he defintiely could fill in at times in CF should Grady go down, though I'm sure Brantley would play there first. Jones has hit lefties well and is actually pretty solid defensively in RF and LF, so solid backup/platoon guy. Shouldn't cost a lot either.


Also still think a guy like Nick Swisher would be a perfect addition if you can pry him from the Yanks (sounds like he is available). Doesn't play CF (though could in a pinch), but hits lefties very well and could also start at 1B. That moneyball/good OBP guy the Tribe likes too. Not sure the Tribe and Yanks match up directly on a deal unless they really like Carmona or Tomlin, but maybe getting a 3rd team involved (like the A's and a Gio trade?) could work....


If it's the Indians, Yankees and A's in a three team deal, then the guy that would be most interesting from the NYY's would be Jesus Montero as a 1B/DH/C(emergency, only). The A's are a team that has almost no outfield to speak of and the left side of the infield is, at best, marginal. Any movement of Gio Gonzalez would have to be offset with the acquisition of at least a near MLB ready or MLB ready SP. The Yankees needs are starting pitcher(s) & RP. These three teams together might be able to cobble together a mutually beneficial trade that might look like:

-A's give up Gio Gonzalez and one of Gray or Choice & get:
Dellin Betances
DJ Mitchell
Asdrubal Cabrera
Chun-hsui Chen

-NYY's give up Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances & DJ Mitchell and get:
Gio Gonzalez
Rafael Perez

-Indians give up Asdrubal, Raffy Perez and Chen & get:
Jesus Montero
Sonny Gray or Michael Choice

NYY's-The "hype" surrounding the highly ranked NYY's properties in this "trade scenario" shouldn't skew the value of each player. None of the three NYY players/prospects are truly proven at the ML level save for some brief yet successful appearances during 2011. The NYY's receive two proven pieces, an MOR/FOR SP and a solid ML LHRP.

-The A's achieve an upgrade with an All Star SS who they can control for three years. This trade offers the A's a "revenue neutral" transaction (seems to be imperative to allow any kind of transaction w./ the A's at this time) while adding a ML ready SP, a near ML ready C and an athletic/power hitting CF'er.

-The Indians are in need of a RH power bat. That may come from Jesus Montero. Montero's defense leaves a LOT to be desired, but he can catch (not his best position), play 1B and DH, all from the right side. The addition of Sonny Gray may require a delay until he passes his first full year as a member of the A's, but he represents an impact SP (potential) or a back of the pen RP that could be ready as soon as a late call up in 2013. The Indians instead may select Michael Choice, an athletic impact hitting 22 year old CF'er who's professional baseball career has just begun, but shows a lot of ability. He'll need at least two years before he'll be near ML ready.

If anything, the Indians may be getting the "light" side of this trade as they would be losing two ML players while getting a ".rookie." in return.

comments...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:17 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
If it's the Indians, Yankees and A's in a three team deal, then the guy that would be most interesting from the NYY's would be Jesus Montero as a 1B/DH/C(emergency, only). The A's are a team that has almost no outfield to speak of and the left side of the infield is, at best, marginal. Any movement of Gio Gonzalez would have to be offset with the acquisition of at least a near MLB ready or MLB ready SP. The Yankees needs are starting pitcher(s) & RP. These three teams together might be able to cobble together a mutually beneficial trade that might look like:

-A's give up Gio Gonzalez and one of Gray or Choice & get:
Dellin Betances
DJ Mitchell
Asdrubal Cabrera
Chun-hsui Chen

-NYY's give up Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances & DJ Mitchell and get:
Gio Gonzalez
Rafael Perez

-Indians give up Asdrubal, Raffy Perez and Chen & get:
Jesus Montero
Sonny Gray or Michael Choice

NYY's-The "hype" surrounding the highly ranked NYY's properties in this "trade scenario" shouldn't skew the value of each player. None of the three NYY players/prospects are truly proven at the ML level save for some brief yet successful appearances during 2011. The NYY's receive two proven pieces, an MOR/FOR SP and a solid ML LHRP.

-The A's achieve an upgrade with an All Star SS who they can control for three years. This trade offers the A's a "revenue neutral" transaction (seems to be imperative to allow any kind of transaction w./ the A's at this time) while adding a ML ready SP, a near ML ready C and an athletic/power hitting CF'er.

-The Indians are in need of a RH power bat. That may come from Jesus Montero. Montero's defense leaves a LOT to be desired, but he can catch (not his best position), play 1B and DH, all from the right side. The addition of Sonny Gray may require a delay until he passes his first full year as a member of the A's, but he represents an impact SP (potential) or a back of the pen RP that could be ready as soon as a late call up in 2013. The Indians instead may select Michael Choice, an athletic impact hitting 22 year old CF'er who's professional baseball career has just begun, but shows a lot of ability. He'll need at least two years before he'll be near ML ready.

If anything, the Indians may be getting the "light" side of this trade as they would be losing two ML players while getting a ".rookie." in return.

comments...


GS, I say no to that trade and also to your previously proposed Michael Morse acquisition. If I'm going to acquire a 1B, I want someone that can catch the ball at 1B (which Morse and Montero really don't consistently). If Chiz and Kip are 2 of our infielders going forward, there will be more than a few errant throws (especially with our ground ball starting pitching staff) and a better defensive 1B will reduce errors. I've seen Morse at 1B and when the announcers call him a butcher that is an understatement and from what I hear wrt Montero the same can be said.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:23 pm

The likeliest scenario would have the Indians acquiring Yonder Alonso by sending Chris Perez plus one of Gomez/Huff/McCallister the Reds way. Not even sure that will get it done as the Reds are looking for at least a Number 2 starter, and I don't believe the aforementioned have that ceiling.

Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus thinks Alonso is overhyped/overrated, and he very well may be (most teams overhype their prospects), but in his small sampling of MLB experience Yonder Alonso has done fairly well.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:46 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
If it's the Indians, Yankees and A's in a three team deal, then the guy that would be most interesting from the NYY's would be Jesus Montero as a 1B/DH/C(emergency, only). The A's are a team that has almost no outfield to speak of and the left side of the infield is, at best, marginal. Any movement of Gio Gonzalez would have to be offset with the acquisition of at least a near MLB ready or MLB ready SP. The Yankees needs are starting pitcher(s) & RP. These three teams together might be able to cobble together a mutually beneficial trade that might look like:

-A's give up Gio Gonzalez and one of Gray or Choice & get:
Dellin Betances
DJ Mitchell
Asdrubal Cabrera
Chun-hsui Chen

-NYY's give up Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances & DJ Mitchell and get:
Gio Gonzalez
Rafael Perez

-Indians give up Asdrubal, Raffy Perez and Chen & get:
Jesus Montero
Sonny Gray or Michael Choice

NYY's-The "hype" surrounding the highly ranked NYY's properties in this "trade scenario" shouldn't skew the value of each player. None of the three NYY players/prospects are truly proven at the ML level save for some brief yet successful appearances during 2011. The NYY's receive two proven pieces, an MOR/FOR SP and a solid ML LHRP.

-The A's achieve an upgrade with an All Star SS who they can control for three years. This trade offers the A's a "revenue neutral" transaction (seems to be imperative to allow any kind of transaction w./ the A's at this time) while adding a ML ready SP, a near ML ready C and an athletic/power hitting CF'er.

-The Indians are in need of a RH power bat. That may come from Jesus Montero. Montero's defense leaves a LOT to be desired, but he can catch (not his best position), play 1B and DH, all from the right side. The addition of Sonny Gray may require a delay until he passes his first full year as a member of the A's, but he represents an impact SP (potential) or a back of the pen RP that could be ready as soon as a late call up in 2013. The Indians instead may select Michael Choice, an athletic impact hitting 22 year old CF'er who's professional baseball career has just begun, but shows a lot of ability. He'll need at least two years before he'll be near ML ready.

If anything, the Indians may be getting the "light" side of this trade as they would be losing two ML players while getting a ".rookie." in return.

comments...


GS, I say no to that trade and also to your previously proposed Michael Morse acquisition. If I'm going to acquire a 1B, I want someone that can catch the ball at 1B (which Morse and Montero really don't consistently). If Chiz and Kip are 2 of our infielders going forward, there will be more than a few errant throws (especially with our ground ball starting pitching staff) and a better defensive 1B will reduce errors. I've seen Morse at 1B and when the announcers call him a butcher that is an understatement and from what I hear wrt Montero the same can be said.


LaPorta can catch the ball... and was really hitting the cover off it during September, sort of like Michael Morse did all season with the Nats... Jesus has the kind of bat that comps toward a young Albert Pujols or, even, Manny Ramirez. He's not there yet, but he's moving in that direction.. He's the goods with the stick as evidenced by his .328/.406/.590 limited sample three slash line. Included in that output are 4 homers & 4 doubles. He also walked nine times. THERE ISN'T ANOTHER IMPACT BAT LIKE HIS IN THE INDIANS SYSTEM. It's pretty clear no one wants to see Casey Kotchman being acquired because he can scoop the ball well at 1B... or Carlos Pena because he can hit 25 to 30 homers while striking out once in ever three or four at bats, but he can scoop the ball well at 1B... The trade suggestion defines high risk / high reward.. the reward would be the impact RH bat that EVERYONE agrees is needed to complete the Indians lineup..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:23 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:LaPorta can catch the ball... and was really hitting the cover off it during September


LaPorta had 33ABs in September..... hitting the cover off the ball for 33ABs means nothing - that is if you count 0HR and an .874OPS as hitting the cover off the ball.

Even if you do, it doesn't mean more than his sub .650OPS in the 3 months preceding September.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:55 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:LaPorta can catch the ball... and was really hitting the cover off it during September


LaPorta had 33ABs in September..... hitting the cover off the ball for 33ABs means nothing - that is if you count 0HR and an .874OPS as hitting the cover off the ball.

Even if you do, it doesn't mean more than his sub .650OPS in the 3 months preceding September.


In those three months he was chasing the ball off the plate while still trying to pull the ball.. He looked hopeless.. when he returned from being in the minors.. he appeared to be "getting it" as he was taking the ball the other way & hitting the ball where the it was pitched. That alone represented an "adjustment" that didn't occur in those three months preceding his demotion. There's no doubt, the light was turned on..now if he can continue with that approach, he could become the kind of 1B the Indians envisioned when they made him the key element in the 3 month trade rental of CC Sabathia back in 2008.

We shall see.. but anyone that believes the Indians should give up on LaPorta at this point is a bit myopic...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:We shall see.. but anyone that believes the Indians should give up on LaPorta at this point is a bit myopic...


I like to quote this stat about LaPorta. In terms of WAR, he's cost his team more runs than all but two other players over the last two years (#1 in this stat is Luis Valbuena, #2 is Pedro Feliz). He's had a large enough sample size. At this point, if you go into next year with LaPorta and Mills as your only options at 1B... that's just irresponsible as a GM.

There's always the small chance that he'll figure it out and get better. If he outperforms whatever veteran we bring in in the spring, then you can justify keeping him. But you CANNOT allow LaPorta to be option #1 with no real contest going into spring training.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:06 pm

Geronimo, I have not been a fan of most of your trade Asdrubal ideas, but I would do that one. I do not think Montero is anything more than a dh defensively, but I think in a few years he is going to be one of the top five hitters in the game. I think the Yankees realize that he is more than the typical overhyped Yankee prospect, and that is why they have been hesitant to trade him. If I had to choose between Choice and Gray, Choice is the no brainer pick.

No thank you on Yonder Alonso. I am not sure I would trade Gomez straight up for him, much less make him a throw in. Someone earlier in the thread compared him to Jordan Brown. I think that is a fair comparison. You don't trade your closer and a young starter for that.

I hate to say it, but Laporta is looking like a 4A player to me. If I am the Indians, I would start him in AAA as an outfielder, and hope his hitting and defense improves. If it does, he could be eligible for a callup when the inevitable Sizemore/Hafner trip to the disabled list occurs.

I find the idea of Donald in center intriguing. I think he has the athleticism to play the position, and the bat translates well. With that being said, I am not sure one offseason is enough time for him to learn how to field the position adequately at the major league level.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:39 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:Geronimo, I have not been a fan of most of your trade Asdrubal ideas, but I would do that one. I do not think Montero is anything more than a dh defensively, but I think in a few years he is going to be one of the top five hitters in the game. I think the Yankees realize that he is more than the typical overhyped Yankee prospect, and that is why they have been hesitant to trade him. If I had to choose between Choice and Gray, Choice is the no brainer pick.

No thank you on Yonder Alonso. I am not sure I would trade Gomez straight up for him, much less make him a throw in. Someone earlier in the thread compared him to Jordan Brown. I think that is a fair comparison. You don't trade your closer and a young starter for that.

I hate to say it, but Laporta is looking like a 4A player to me. If I am the Indians, I would start him in AAA as an outfielder, and hope his hitting and defense improves. If it does, he could be eligible for a callup when the inevitable Sizemore/Hafner trip to the disabled list occurs.

I find the idea of Donald in center intriguing. I think he has the athleticism to play the position, and the bat translates well. With that being said, I am not sure one offseason is enough time for him to learn how to field the position adequately at the major league level.


Michael Choice over Sonny Gray.. okay, I could agree with that, but would prefer Gray.. Both add to two areas of the Indians minor league system that are relatively thin, especially at the upper levels. IMHO, the continued stocking and restocking of uber talented minor league players regardless of where the window of contention is at, will ALWAYS be a good plan..

That said, Sonny Gray may be comp'd as Tim Lincecum:

The Baseball Report: While everybody was making — and wisely subsequently dismissing — Tim Lincecum comps for UCLA’s Trevor Bauer, the closest thing to the Giants star pitcher in this year’s (2011) class has always been Sonny Gray. Of course, Gray isn’t really anything like Lincecum (really, who is?), but the three biggest knocks on Lincecum coming out of Washington — control, size, and an unorthodox delivery — are all also questions that Gray will have to answer to at the next level


Michael Choice could be like or comp'd to Vernon Wells if he can cut down on the strike outs. He is currently playing CF, but projects more as a power hitting corner OF'er. The break out season in 2011 has fueled his hype quite a bit. It should be interesting to see how well he progresses at the next level(s).

Both of these comps are more "hope" than reality, at least at this time. More realistic comps are certainly out there..

The A's appear to be losing their entire OF this off season. They have two OF'ers that are close to being ML ready (at least on paper): Michael Taylor & Chris Carter. Both have had brief trials at the ML level with less than positive results. Their history has yet to be written..

Hypothetical: What would it take to make the A's consider moving one of these two (Carter/Taylor)?

Jason Donald in the outfield doesn't really give me a great deal of pause. He's always been a gamer, a baseball lifer from the time he was a sperm. Adapting to any position on the diamond is within his capability. Because of his athleticism, he can do just about anything on the diamond. His spot on the Indians roster appears to be either the primary or second back up at 2B, SS, 3B, LF, CF.. A guy like that needs a LOT of endorsement support from baseball glove manufacturers...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:41 pm

BTW.. the reason Gray was added / included as part of that proposed / suggested trade was due to some negative reports on Michael Choice... mostly focusing on his average skills, eventual projection as a LF'er, and his high strike out rate.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:40 pm

It is not that I think that Gray is garbage, but I would prefer Choice for the simple fact that we really do not have much in the way of outfield prospects, and with the impending free agency of Choo along with fact the rest of the outfield situation is a mess, we need to start developing potential replacements from within. Choice isn't without his flaws, but he would be our number one outfield prospect if we aquired him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:21 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:It is not that I think that Gray is garbage, but I would prefer Choice for the simple fact that we really do not have much in the way of outfield prospects, and with the impending free agency of Choo along with fact the rest of the outfield situation is a mess, we need to start developing potential replacements from within. Choice isn't without his flaws, but he would be our number one outfield prospect if we aquired him.


OF is one of the thinnest areas...if not THEE thinnest area in the Indians Minor League System..
-Nick Weglarz hasn't been able to stay out of the trainer's room
-Trevor Crowe has fought several battles to make the ML's, most of which he's lost..
-Thomas Neal has a chance to become a bona fide prospect, he was once.. could be again
-Tim Fedroff is an interesting player, but doesn't grade out all that well.. a AAAA player to be sure
-LeVon Washington hasn't made an impression.. but has the athleticism to become impressive
-Bryson Myles was drafted about six hours ago.. sort of a Kirby Pucket without the pedigree at this point
-Luigi Rodriguez has shown some skills.. at the lowest levels of talent
-Ezequiel Carrera is a good defender, but will his bat translate?

In short.. this is really thin..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:07 am

The Tribe traded Luis Valbuena -SS to Toronto for cash.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:33 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe traded Luis Valbuena -SS to Toronto for cash.


Makes sense. Wish him well and all that.

He wasn't going to get any time here at 2B with Donald, Phelps and Kipnis ahead of him. And his defense was too poor for SS or 3B (or LF).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:57 am

Edible14 wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe traded Luis Valbuena -SS to Toronto for cash.


Makes sense. Wish him well and all that.

He wasn't going to get any time here at 2B with Donald, Phelps and Kipnis ahead of him. And his defense was too poor for SS or 3B (or LF).


The Blue Jays blogs are opining that this is a good move for AA (their GM).. The Jays pick up a depth middle infielder who has produced some pretty good #'s at the AAA and could benefit from a change of scenery.. Not a bad pick up from their perspective.. It could mean that AA has drawn a line in the sand w/r to Kelly Johnson returning. Odd that the Jays losing Johnny Mac has created a mess for them..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:53 pm

Edible14 wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe traded Luis Valbuena -SS to Toronto for cash.


Makes sense. Wish him well and all that.

He wasn't going to get any time here at 2B with Donald, Phelps and Kipnis ahead of him. And his defense was too poor for SS or 3B (or LF).


I still maintain that Valbuena was vastly underrated here in Cleveland. A lot of it had to do with poor play in 2010 and limited opps last year, but there is some untapped talent. On a VERY small scale it reminds me of Brandon Phillips....a guy just about everyone couldn't wait to get rid of. Now, Valbuena is no Phillips, but I could see him bouncing back with the Jays and becoming a solid second division second baseman or utility player in the bigs. Considering he had one option left I still would have rather kept him around for depth and to see if the light went on for him this year if he got a ML opp.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:52 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I still maintain that Valbuena was vastly underrated here in Cleveland. A lot of it had to do with poor play in 2010 and limited opps last year, but there is some untapped talent. On a VERY small scale it reminds me of Brandon Phillips....a guy just about everyone couldn't wait to get rid of. Now, Valbuena is no Phillips, but I could see him bouncing back with the Jays and becoming a solid second division second baseman or utility player in the bigs. Considering he had one option left I still would have rather kept him around for depth and to see if the light went on for him this year if he got a ML opp.


I agree to some extent that he opportunities were limited. I can see the guy becoming a contributor in Toronto perhaps. But he wasn't getting that shot here by the looks of it given the guys ahead of him. That's why his departure doesn't really bother me. To be honest, I think Luis would have been the guy DFA'd for Grady even if Diaz wasn't added at his expense (if that's indeed the case). I don't really take glee in the guy leaving, but it just seems to me that it was going to happen at some point this offseason.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:36 am

The Blue Jays have almost nothing to put at second base for the coming 2012 season. The current projected starter, McCoy and his less than able backup in AAA, Mayorson are clones of each other.. neither hits very well or fields very well. There was a notation that the Jays were consider moving Adeiny Hecchavarria from his natural position of SS, currently occupied by Yunel Escobar, to second base. Hecchavarria has all the tools to be a exciting glove first middle infielder. Anything the Jays get from Adeiny offensively would be a bonus, so, it may take some time before he is ML ready.. During that time, look for Little Luis to be given a shot at the starting spot..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:14 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Also still think a guy like Nick Swisher would be a perfect addition if you can pry him from the Yanks (sounds like he is available). Doesn't play CF (though could in a pinch), but hits lefties very well and could also start at 1B. That moneyball/good OBP guy the Tribe likes too. Not sure the Tribe and Yanks match up directly on a deal unless they really like Carmona or Tomlin, but maybe getting a 3rd team involved (like the A's and a Gio trade?) could work....


If it's the Indians, Yankees and A's in a three team deal, then the guy that would be most interesting from the NYY's would be Jesus Montero as a 1B/DH/C(emergency, only). The A's are a team that has almost no outfield to speak of and the left side of the infield is, at best, marginal. Any movement of Gio Gonzalez would have to be offset with the acquisition of at least a near MLB ready or MLB ready SP. The Yankees needs are starting pitcher(s) & RP. These three teams together might be able to cobble together a mutually beneficial trade that might look like:

-A's give up Gio Gonzalez and one of Gray or Choice & get:
Dellin Betances
DJ Mitchell
Asdrubal Cabrera
Chun-hsui Chen

-NYY's give up Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances & DJ Mitchell and get:
Gio Gonzalez
Rafael Perez

-Indians give up Asdrubal, Raffy Perez and Chen & get:
Jesus Montero
Sonny Gray or Michael Choice

If anything, the Indians may be getting the "light" side of this trade as they would be losing two ML players while getting a ".rookie." in return.

comments...


"light" is an understatement. Tribe is getting screwed in this deal. Does not make them better in 2012 or 2013. I've been one of Cabrera's biggest critics, but you're selling him way short here. Getting a DH and a future closer or OFer who is a year away is really not even worth AC, let along throwing in Perez and Chen.

Suppose you could maybe consider it if the Yanks were taking all $15+M of Hafner's remaining salary in this deal (opening up money for a guy like Cuddyer or Willingham) but again, this deal does not make the Tribe better, and even saving money on Hafner wouldn't really do it for me.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:31 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Also still think a guy like Nick Swisher would be a perfect addition if you can pry him from the Yanks (sounds like he is available). Doesn't play CF (though could in a pinch), but hits lefties very well and could also start at 1B. That moneyball/good OBP guy the Tribe likes too. Not sure the Tribe and Yanks match up directly on a deal unless they really like Carmona or Tomlin, but maybe getting a 3rd team involved (like the A's and a Gio trade?) could work....


If it's the Indians, Yankees and A's in a three team deal, then the guy that would be most interesting from the NYY's would be Jesus Montero as a 1B/DH/C(emergency, only). The A's are a team that has almost no outfield to speak of and the left side of the infield is, at best, marginal. Any movement of Gio Gonzalez would have to be offset with the acquisition of at least a near MLB ready or MLB ready SP. The Yankees needs are starting pitcher(s) & RP. These three teams together might be able to cobble together a mutually beneficial trade that might look like:

-A's give up Gio Gonzalez and one of Gray or Choice & get:
Dellin Betances
DJ Mitchell
Asdrubal Cabrera
Chun-hsui Chen

-NYY's give up Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances & DJ Mitchell and get:
Gio Gonzalez
Rafael Perez

-Indians give up Asdrubal, Raffy Perez and Chen & get:
Jesus Montero
Sonny Gray or Michael Choice

If anything, the Indians may be getting the "light" side of this trade as they would be losing two ML players while getting a ".rookie." in return.

comments...


"light" is an understatement. Tribe is getting screwed in this deal. Does not make them better in 2012 or 2013. I've been one of Cabrera's biggest critics, but you're selling him way short here. Getting a DH and a future closer or OFer who is a year away is really not even worth AC, let along throwing in Perez and Chen.

Suppose you could maybe consider it if the Yanks were taking all $15+M of Hafner's remaining salary in this deal (opening up money for a guy like Cuddyer or Willingham) but again, this deal does not make the Tribe better, and even saving money on Hafner wouldn't really do it for me.


The Indians return in this trade is clearly on the light side.. If the Indians remove Rafael Perez from what the Yankees receive.. then this should even up the Indian's side of this three sided equation.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:56 pm

There seems to be a lot of concern over Cabrera's defensive abilities at shortstop combined with the fact that most of our starters are ground ball inducing types. So what about the idea of converting him to a third basemen for the 2012 season. I feel his defensive abilities translate well there, and he certainly hits well enough. We could then go out and pick up a glove man for short. It would improve our infield defense greatly, and it also would allow Chisenhall more time to refine his game in Columbus. Thoughts?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:53 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:There seems to be a lot of concern over Cabrera's defensive abilities at shortstop combined with the fact that most of our starters are ground ball inducing types. So what about the idea of converting him to a third basemen for the 2012 season. I feel his defensive abilities translate well there, and he certainly hits well enough. We could then go out and pick up a glove man for short. It would improve our infield defense greatly, and it also would allow Chisenhall more time to refine his game in Columbus. Thoughts?


Chisenhall's time is now.. The Indians need to find out what they have with the Chiz at the hot corner. Having a real 3B for a change is going to make a difference for the better. Refinement?.. ID.K... it can't hurt.. or maybe it can?

Regarding Asdrubal's defense: He's more than adequate as a defensive SS and has proven that over and over. DAMN the UZR's and other so called defensive metrics that don't pass the eye test.. As far as the Indians are concerned, there is no concern about his defense. As far as why he's being 'discussed' as a trade candidate, it has to do with what the Indians have on the roster and what's coming up in the minors. Couple that with a handful of teams that are desperate for a SS with Asdrubal's glove and bat, have ML players and ML ready prospects in places where the Indians have a desperate need. This situation gives the Indians an incredibly valuable trade piece that can return the piece(s) the Indians lack for a real run at a central division championship or one of the two wild cards.

If a glove man at 3B is needed, Jack Hannahan is that guy.. The Indians also have Kyle "Bells" Bellows working his way toward the major leagues. Giovanni Urshela isn't bad with the leather, either.. BTW.. Hanny can also play 1B as a defensive replacement.. Hannahan is a corner utility guy with gold glove capability. Now that's a luxury few teams can boast..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:32 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Chisenhall's time is now.. The Indians need to find out what they have with the Chiz at the hot corner. Having a real 3B for a change is going to make a difference for the better. Refinement?.. ID.K... it can't hurt.. or maybe it can?

Regarding Asdrubal's defense: He's more than adequate as a defensive SS and has proven that over and over. DAMN the UZR's and other so called defensive metrics that don't pass the eye test.. As far as the Indians are concerned, there is no concern about his defense. As far as why he's being 'discussed' as a trade candidate, it has to do with what the Indians have on the roster and what's coming up in the minors. Couple that with a handful of teams that are desperate for a SS with Asdrubal's glove and bat, have ML players and ML ready prospects in places where the Indians have a desperate need. This situation gives the Indians an incredibly valuable trade piece that can return the piece(s) the Indians lack for a real run at a central division championship or one of the two wild cards.

If a glove man at 3B is needed, Jack Hannahan is that guy.. The Indians also have Kyle "Bells" Bellows working his way toward the major leagues. Giovanni Urshela isn't bad with the leather, either.. BTW.. Hanny can also play 1B as a defensive replacement.. Hannahan is a corner utility guy with gold glove capability. Now that's a luxury few teams can boast..


Do not underestimate the "Web Gem" type plays Asdrubal makes and the subsequent energy the whole team has after them. In truth, Asdrubal did wear down during the season and his UZR suffered for it. Heck even the number of "Web Gems" Asdrubal were lower in the second half of the year. I think these make up for the defensive deficiencies.

Now with Chiz and Kip in the infield making throws (throws are certainly Chiz's weakest defensive asset), you could use a good defensive 1B. A good defensive 1B can make up for poor throws. This is why putting guys like Morse or Montero at 1B would be disastrous for this team and their chance to be contenders next year.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:09 pm

Personally I am fine with Cabrera at short, but it seems to worry some on this board, so I thought I would throw an idea out there. As for Chisenhall, he displayed flashes of talent last season, but it still seems he has some work to do before he is an everyday major leaguer. I can understand the desire for him to get experience against major league pitching though. To me at least, Kipnis looks ready, but Chisenhall is still somewhat of a work in progress.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:47 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:Personally I am fine with Cabrera at short, but it seems to worry some on this board, so I thought I would throw an idea out there. As for Chisenhall, he displayed flashes of talent last season, but it still seems he has some work to do before he is an everyday major leaguer. I can understand the desire for him to get experience against major league pitching though. To me at least, Kipnis looks ready, but Chisenhall is still somewhat of a work in progress.


Without a doubt.. Kipnis has shown an innate sense for the 2B spot.. Chisenhall's development as a ML 3B will be ongoing as he learns the nuance of the position and learns the opposition's tendencies. That could take years to learn & not a moment is gained in Columbus..

W/R to the "Web Gems" and it's motivational effect.. Posalutely!!.. (using my best punch drunk Rocky voice)
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:40 pm

I agree with Tony, I actually like Valbuena. He might not be an everyday player but could be a useful piece particularly if he was in a decent lineup and given time.
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